Can Muslims Become Part of Mainstream Nationalism?

vereesh #59: ``Point is not in the numbers. Point is that if a person has the capability to make it, he will.``

I am unaware of one of the three names you mentioned as Chiefs of Staff. I will leave it up to our resident IAF expert Mr. Stuka to point out the accuracies or inaccuracies.

As for your comment, above. I completely disagree. One cannot use the criteria that if one has the capability, one will make it, by pointing to a few examples. There have to be opportunities given to enhance the capability of the whole community, thereby resulting in a broad level of success.

The success of Indian Muslims in Indian IT is not decided by one Premji. It is decided by the broad percentage of Indian Muslims in IITs. It is not decided by one Air Marshall, it is decided by the percentage of Indian Muslims who are Flight Lieutenants and Sargents.

In Pakistan, Maleeha Lodhi is a women who traces her heritage to Baluchistan (I think), i.e. a Baluchi woman. She is perhaps the most prominent and well-known woman from South Asia (unlike Benazir, she is known for all the right reasons). She was voted one of the seventy most influential people in the world by Newsweek, two years ago. Musharraf and Vajpayee were the only other South Asians on this list. And one of the forty people who would have an effect on the world`s future (or something of that sort) by Time Magazine (nine years ago). She is a Ph.D. from LSE, where she taught also. And she has been an editor of a major Pakistani newspaper.

One cannot have a better resume that that. I would make her the President of Pakistan, if I was a political leader.

Another prominent Baluchi woman is Zubaida Jalal. She is a philanthrapist, who built schools in the most remote parts of Pakistan. Musharraf made her a minister, in his military govt., while she was in her early forties. In the last election, she won in an open contest against tribal Baluchi sardars, as an independent candidate, in a very remote part of Baluchistan. This is unheard of, even for a man. She thus, may have become the first Baluchi women, in the history of that whole area (pre-Pakistan also) to have won an elected federal seat (I believe there was a Baluchi female vice-chairman of Senate, named Noor Jehan Panazai, or something, at one time. But Senators do not participate in a public election in Pakistan).

Even more impressive is the fact, that her husband lost from those areas. And even more impressive is that a few days after the election, she delivered a child. She is currently a federal minister in the cabinet.

So using your logic, since these two women made it, if any other Baluchi women is, “talented enough,” she will make it also. However, that is not true. These two are big exceptions. The literacy rate of women in Baluchistan is 3.6% - perhaps the lowest in the world. This means that 96.4% of Baluchi women will never even get the opportunity to try to make it. One of them could be the next great English poet. But she won’t be able to pursue it, if she cannot even read or write.

Yosuf Yohanna is my favorite cricket player, other than Imran Khan. Yohanna could be the next Pakistan cricket captain. This is a position, which could be considered the most well-known, after Prime Minister of the country. From what I have read, he is the son of a sweeper – the poorest of the poor jobs in Pakistan. On top of that, a Christian sweeper, thereby making his position even more weak in a predominantly Muslim country. Yet he has made it so far. Does this mean that if sons of Christian sweepers have the talent, they will make it as cricketers in Pakistan? I doubt it, since there are very few, if any, such broad examples at other levels of Pakistani cricket. It just means that Yohanna is an exceptional human being, who has made it despite of massive odds.

So one needs a broad level of examples, from all levels, to support the fact that a minority community is doing well, in comparison to other communities. In case of Indian Muslims (and East Pakistani Bengalis, Pakistani Christians etc.) these examples are not available. The statistics point them out. There are only exceptions, who have made it against massive odds.

But, in the end, it is your responsibility to look after Indian Muslims. They are in India willingly. If you think they are doing well, who am I to argue. I certainly don’t think Pakistani Hindus are doing well. I feel they need far more affirmative action. The worse thing I could do to them, would be to try to portray that they are doing well.

Vereesh/Stuka: I have based my info on the following Bharat Rakshak website. Could either of you highlight whether the info is correct or not:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Air-Chiefs/Chiefs-Air-10.html

It states the following, ``It was no surprise that Latif made his way to become the first Muslim Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force.``

Aspy Engineer was before Latif. So that would contradict Vereesh`s info.

This is just to update my own info. Not for any other reason. Whether India has ten Muslims Chiefs or one, is immaterial to me (apart from the curiousity of comparing what my odds would have been had I been in India)......

Re : Romair # 53

“Following are some statistics I have gotten from various other Indian and Pakistani sites, about Indian Muslims. Kindly point out any inaccuracies.

- 116 Muslims out of a total of 3883 administrative officers (2.98%),
- 45 out of 1433 police service officers (3.14%) and 57 out of 2159 foreign service officers (2.64%).
- In central government, Muslims constitute 1.6% of all class I officers, 3.9% of all class II officers and 4.4% of the technical supervisory staff
- Almost 13 percent of India’s population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3 percent of the government employees”

I can’t verify your stats but while you are explaining the discrimination against Muslims in India can you explain why every third person in the movie business is a Muslim. It’s the same in the advertising business. One in five in the diamonds business is a Muslim and the carpet industry is overwhelmingly Muslim.


Faruk

Dear Alpehnull # 65, yes, you have got that correctly, the boundaries of Parsi / Zoroastrian identity (or for that matter even the Bahai identity, if you wish to call it that) have traditionally included Muslims, especially in India, who felt they were being persecuted.

I don`t want to get into an argument on ``persecuted by whom``.

Zoroastrians, Ba`hais, Jews, Orthodox Christians of a variety of hues . . . as well as other persecuted communities . . . have traditionally found refuge from persecution in India. As you are no doubt aware.

So, here`s a hint for you:- if you as a Muslim are being persecuted by other Muslims, in India, what do you do?

And, when (not if) in my rigid Indian community I meet relatives of mine with the surname of, say, Tyabji or Engineer or Bastani, then I can safely assume that they could be Zoroastrian, Bahai, Muslim, Sikh, Christian or even Hindu.

Can you tell me what religion Afzalpurkar would be?

#62 Veeresh

Veeresh, I have absolutely no problem accepting the notion that beyond a certain level your religion just does not matter in India.

I had no idea, however, that the boundaries of Parsi identity were ever as fluid as you seem to hint. In my naïve outsider ignorance, I accepted the received notion that they were as rigid as it gets for any Indian community. I do know that there are non-Parsi Zoroastrians. Mea culpa…

Ref Field Marshal Hotair #53

[Azim Premji is definitely extremely successful in IT (small technical sidenote: he is not in the North American IT industry. Wipro is India-based).]

I suppose that is why I lost the competition at Mellon Bank. The VP at Mellon told me that his board had directed him to deal with the Top 5 Indian IT companies and those were Infosys, TCS, WIPRO, Satyam and IBM Global Services. I guess when I was competing against Wipro at Cisco, that msut have been a mirage.

Infosys is equally India-based. Infosys hands out stock options and its ADR is traded in the US. Azim Premji did not hand out stock options even to his top executives and that is why some of them left to start MindTree. But that doesn`t mean that WIPRO doesn`t work the international scene.

[Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims?]

Maybe Azim Premji doesn`t believe in zakat! Maybe he expects value for money, just like his worldwide customers do.

[What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.]

But how about the Indian Muslim population in the Middle East? Aren`t they far greater than the 13% they represent in India`s population? Or, doesn`t that count?

#53

{{What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population?}}

In my undergraduate class, a shade over 1% (3 out of 260). Significantly, two other ‘minority’ religious communities I noted were substantially over-represented. There was no credible evidence that the entrance exam was anything but religion-oblivious.

{{ I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness.}}

and

{{I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.}}

To assist your thinking, let me follow bbabu and refer you to the faculty of computer science departments in the United States. My observations are consistent with people of Indian birth (identified primarily by the institutions granting their first degrees) outnumbering Pakistanis by a factor of at least fifty to one, if not more. This, despite Indians/Indian-Americans in the US outnumbering Pakistanis/Pakistani-Americans by barely two to one. [In fact, I’ve seen more Iranian-Americans in CS academia than Pakistanis, despite a smaller base population of Iranians.]

Here are some possible reasons for this massive backwardness of Pakistanis compared to Indians (an egregious human-rights violation, surely):

(1) Pakistanis as a group lack the single-minded dedication to education needed to make academia a career option.

(2) Pakistanis just aren’t bright enough to make it to CS faculties. They are condemned to drive cabs all their lives.

(3) Pakistanis don`t consider this indicative of backwardness. They are way too smart to ruin their lives as small-time manqué academics. They’d rather make a quick buck as businessmen or smooth-talking sales-and-marketing types.

(4) Those with first degrees from Pakistan lack the solid foundation needed to excel in graduate school, and simply aren’t able to make up their deficiencies in time.

(5) The white American establishment in US academia actively discriminates against Muslim Pakistanis or in favour of Indians in faculty hiring and tenure decisions (and in grad school admissions).

(6) Indians infesting US academia actively discriminate against Pakistanis in grad student admission, and in faculty hiring and tenure decisions.

(7) Pakistanis had a late start in this field, and continue to have trouble catching up, while the rest of the world isn’t standing still.

(8) A weighted combination of one or more of the above reasons

I suggest that the situation of Indian Muslims is of similar complexity and all possible explanations – including the history, culture, outlook, motivations and preferences of that community and its segments - must be considered, not just the risible ‘human-rights’ baloney which you favour.

Hi Alpehnull . . . there are & were enough Parsees in India who were Muslims a couple of generations ago. There are enough Muslims in India who are not considered Muslims in other Islamic countries. The reasons are not what I wish to go into today.

So the answer to your question on whether Aspy Engineer was a Parsee, is YES.

But.

Is Nusli Wadia, ergo any Wadia, a Parsee or a Muslim? Was Jinnah, ergo any Jinnah, a Muslim or a Parsee? Was Feroze Gandhi, ergo any Gandhi, a Parsee or a Muslim? Was Johnny Greene of the IAF a Muslim or a Christian? Was Aspy Engineer ergo any other surname ``Engineer``, a Parsee or a Muslim?

Point I am making here for the benefit of Romair and the larger benefit of others is that beyond a particular level in India, your religion does not matter.

Now what is preventing a particular community from drawing up to that level, and then surpassing it, is another question altogether.

#51 Stuka

{{Air Chief Marshal Ibrahim Latif}}

Air Chief Marshal Idris Hasan Latif

#59 Veeresh

{{A.M. Engineer}}

Hmmm. Wasn’t late Air Marshal Aspy Engineer a Parsi?

#55 by dost-mittar on August 27, 2003 2:27pm PT
HisExcellency:
You are right. I did not mean it literally. The point is that in having a Muslim grandchild, I am taking the risk that he would one day turn out to be a member of SIMI or LeT. A Hindu grandchild could also, unortunately, turn out to be a Hindu fanatic. But at least he wont want to destroy India even if he faced discrimination. And he wouldn`t start denying that I was his ancestor as a large majority of subcotinental Muslims have done to his ancestors. He wouldn`t reject his language and cultute and turn my heroes into his villians and my villians (Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi) into his heroes.

---

dost-mittar ji, I heartily agree with you.
It is the denial of their ancestors by the muslims and it is the glorification of the villians liek Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi as heroes that is really really bugging. And one can`t help feeling that anyone who does this false glorification is nothing but a traitor to our land.

The three Muslim Air Chiefs for the IAF:-

a) A.M. Engineer. (Maybe not Muslim enough for Pakistanis, but in India, fine by us)
b) I.H. Latif.
c) The third one I would like to leave un-named here, because his Muslim ancestry was not public domain, but can be easily tracked if required.

In addition, does the name ``Johnny Greene`` suggest a religion, for those interested in the IAF?

Point is not in the numbers. Point is that if a person has the capability to make it, he will.

Incidentally, while we are at it, one of the most visible Muslim names in the Indian echelons of power was and is actually a Christian.

More importantly, once you reach a level, who cares what your religion is or was, as long as your fundamentals are sound?

Romair #53

`` First of all, there haven’t been three Indian Muslim Air Force Chiefs. Considering the fact that you are from a military family, I am quite disappointed you do not know this. I have always stated that Pakistanis knew more about India than Indians knew about Pakistan. But perhaps Pakistanis know more about India than even Indians know about India :-)``

There has been at least one air force chief in Indian military - Latif in the late 70s. Indian military generals do not command any power like their Pakistani counterparts.

There have been Muslim Chief Ministers in Maharastra, Pondicherry.

`` Secondly, you need not get defensive (why do Indian’s get so defensive, so quickly, when someone critiques them? Is it the lack of salt in the diet? :-)). I am not attacking Indians’ treatment of Muslims. They are your citizens. You are responsible for them. I am not. Unlike Kashmiris, they are willingly living with India, hence you decide how you should treat them.

I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness. This is why I equally pointed out problems in Pakistan with Bengalis etc. Specifically, so our Indian colleagues would not get defensive. But, I apparently failed.``

Bengalis are not backward to West Pakistanis. Indian Muslims trail Indian Hindus by a wide margin.

`` Statistically speaking (at least all the statistics I have read), the ratios of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. jobs is similar to those of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. jobs, circa 1971 (note to our Indian friends: I am criticizing both Pakistan and India here, to avoid defensive comments. B-o-t-h being the key word, even though the article is only about India). Let me highlight:``

Bengalis are 56% of population. Indian Muslims are 12%. Big difference !!!

`` This is one area I know about much better than you. Take a look at the executive staff of his own company. Are there any Muslims? Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims? What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.``

There is nothing subjective about IIT exams. The guy grading your exam sees a dummy serial number not even your name.

`` In the US university I attended, there were hundreds of Indian engineering students. I was friends with many of them. Only four or five (or less) were Muslims. There were many (forty or more) Indian professors. Not a single one was a Muslim.``

Why don`t you compare the number of young Pakistani professors with young Indian professors in USA ? (young as in below the age of 40). The ratio will be much greater than 8:1. I put the qualifier below the age of 40 because Indians had to deal with numerical quotas in the 1970s and 1980s. Does it mean Pakistanis are being discriminated in USA (pre-Sep 11)

`` Your Azim Premji example is similar to stating that Benazir was the PM of Pakistan, hence women are doing great in Pakistan. Or that Jamali is the PM of Pakistan, hence Baluchis are doing great in Pakistan. When in fact, women and Baluchis are doing not too well in Pakistani (the only person it applies to correctly is Musharraf. He is the President and the Muhajirs are doing very well, at every level).``

Jamali is a figurehead. Azimji has real money.

`` (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01022001/Art24.htm)``

millgazete is a Muslim fundamentalist newspaper spouting apologies for the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

correction #53: ``Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (an Indian federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet).``

should read,

``Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (a Hindu federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet).``

#55 His``XXXX``

I have not suggested that there any unusual problems with indian muslims. There may be problems with wahhabi islam, there may be problems with the jehadi culture of pakistan. And these may be relevant to indian muslims. Other than that I disagree with this Garg twit completely.

I was making a very narrow comment on the ``hindu`` origins of Iqbal and Jinnah in response to dost-mittar.

HisExcellency:
You are right. I did not mean it literally. The point is that in having a Muslim grandchild, I am taking the risk that he would one day turn out to be a member of SIMI or LeT. A Hindu grandchild could also, unortunately, turn out to be a Hindu fanatic. But at least he wont want to destroy India even if he faced discrimination. And he wouldn`t start denying that I was his ancestor as a large majority of subcotinental Muslims have done to his ancestors. He wouldn`t reject his language and cultute and turn my heroes into his villians and my villians (Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi) into his heroes.

``Essentially you are saying that the purpose for creation of Secular India is to preserve the Hindu culture/Hindu-ness of India. Isn`t this a contradiction?? Its like Henry Ford saying that you can buy a Ford in any color, as long as its black.``

I did not say so in that post. There is nothing wrong in natural evolution. Even though I wish that Prithvi Raj Chauhan had driven back Mohammad Ghauri, I fully accept India`s Islamic heritage as my own. I am as critical of those who want to cleanse our history of its Muslim past as I am of those who deride its pre-Islamic past.
But I have also no hesitation in admitting that India has a special responsibility to preserve its Hindu culture. After all, it is the only country which can do that. Otherwise, Hindu culture will go the way of the zorastrian/Parsi culture and a rich part of the human heritage will be lost to the world.
Having said that, I am definitely against having only a Black Ford. Heck, I want as many models as possible. This multi-coloured mosaic is what makes India, India. So, India has responsibility not only to preserve its Hindu culture, but also its Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi and, especially its Sikh, Jain, Parsee, Kabirpanthis and tribal cultures which are unique to India.
Indeed, this desire to convert the whole world into dar-ul-Islam (black Ford) is what I find least appealing about Islam. Indeed, once you enter this ``Black Ford``, you cant even ask to leave it without losing your life.

vereesh #48: “There have been 3 Chiefs of Air Staff who were Muslim….”

First of all, there haven’t been three Indian Muslim Air Force Chiefs. Considering the fact that you are from a military family, I am quite disappointed you do not know this. I have always stated that Pakistanis knew more about India than Indians knew about Pakistan. But perhaps Pakistanis know more about India than even Indians know about India :-)

Secondly, you need not get defensive (why do Indian’s get so defensive, so quickly, when someone critiques them? Is it the lack of salt in the diet? :-)). I am not attacking Indians’ treatment of Muslims. They are your citizens. You are responsible for them. I am not. Unlike Kashmiris, they are willingly living with India, hence you decide how you should treat them.

I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness. This is why I equally pointed out problems in Pakistan with Bengalis etc. Specifically, so our Indian colleagues would not get defensive. But, I apparently failed.

If what you say is correct, then Muslims seem to be doing alright in India. Then this whole article is a sham, since it states that the Muslims are not doing well (due to their own faults, according to this article).

Statistically speaking (at least all the statistics I have read), the ratios of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. jobs is similar to those of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. jobs, circa 1971 (note to our Indian friends: I am criticizing both Pakistan and India here, to avoid defensive comments. B-o-t-h being the key word, even though the article is only about India). Let me highlight:

“Of course, our nuclear programme has been headed by a Muslim.”

This is true. But how many Muslims are in the departments related to this nuclear program? I actually don’t know. Could you highlight? Our next cricket captain maybe a Christian, but that doesn’t mean Christians have excellent sporting facilities in Pakistan. It is the sole effort and success of one individual.

“Does Aziz Premji qualify as succesful in the North American IT industry?”

Azim Premji is definitely extremely successful in IT (small technical sidenote: he is not in the North American IT industry. Wipro is India-based). I am infact trying to hook up with his company, to understand his secret to success. But he is also an exception.

This is one area I know about much better than you. Take a look at the executive staff of his own company. Are there any Muslims? Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims? What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.

In the US university I attended, there were hundreds of Indian engineering students. I was friends with many of them. Only four or five (or less) were Muslims. There were many (forty or more) Indian professors. Not a single one was a Muslim.

Your Azim Premji example is similar to stating that Benazir was the PM of Pakistan, hence women are doing great in Pakistan. Or that Jamali is the PM of Pakistan, hence Baluchis are doing great in Pakistan. When in fact, women and Baluchis are doing not too well in Pakistani (the only person it applies to correctly is Musharraf. He is the President and the Muhajirs are doing very well, at every level).

One successful person does not mean the success of a community. There has to be a broad spread success, at all levels.

“Well, amigo, I think you don`t like to accept the simple fact that whether you were in India or Pakistan you would have done as well.”

This is a possibility. But statistically speaking, not a very big one. The following is from the Indian Muslim magazine

“Though Muslims account for more than 12 % of the total population of India, their percentage in government jobs is less than 3 % ( mostly in lower grades). Their representation in Nationalized Banks and other Public Sector Units of the Centre and State Governments is much lower than their share in the Government jobs.” (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01022001/Art24.htm)

Following are some statistics I have gotten from various other Indian and Pakistani sites, about Indian Muslims. Kindly point out any inaccuracies.

- 116 Muslims out of a total of 3883 administrative officers (2.98%),
- 45 out of 1433 police service officers (3.14%) and 57 out of 2159 foreign service officers (2.64%).
- In central government, Muslims constitute 1.6% of all class I officers, 3.9% of all class II officers and 4.4% of the technical supervisory staff
- Almost 13 percent of India’s population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3 percent of the government employees

Hence my chances would be far less of doing, as well (at least statistically speaking), in India, as in Pakistan. Then again, I could have been the odd Premji. Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (an Indian federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet). But the deck is stacked against both of us in each other’s country. I accept this, while you are unwilling to accept it. I don’t know why.

“Raj kapoor`s Mera Naam Joker had a few home truths in it. One of them was a song that went ``Chasma Uttaro . . .``”

Raj Kapoor is my favorite director. And I loved Mera Naam Joker. Is it possible that you are the one who needs to, “Take off your glasses” and understand the reality? And not me…….