Can Muslims Become Part of Mainstream Nationalism?

I can understand why Pakistani Mullahs would raise hell over the issue of conversions. After all, Pakistan ideology is based on religion.

I can`t understand why Indians are echoing the same paranoia about conversions. Who cares if a person changes his religion as long as he remains an Indian. Does being a Muslim/Christian make you less of an Indian?

Today Muslims comprise 16-17% of Indian population. Perhaps 40 years from now, their population will reach 30-35%. As their numbers increase, so will their cultural influence. As a result, Indian culture will also undergo gradual changes. This is ofcourse a good thing because ultimately no culture stays the same. Change is essential for the survival and growth of every society. The Hegelian conflict between an existing idea (thesis) and its contradiction (antithesis) creates an entirely new idea (the synthesis) devoid of contradictions. This cyclical process is essential for the historical progress of societies.

Iqbal expressed this in his famous verses:

Jahan-e-Taaza Ki Afkar-e-Taaza se hai namood
Ke Sang-e-Khisht se hotay nahin Jahaan paida

``A new world owes its existence to new ideas
Stones and rocks (i.e. old ideas) don`t create new worlds``

And the prize goes to #34 plats8! absolutely and totally correct !!!!

So what do we learn from the fact that a ``pure`` hindu nation such as Nepal has the WORST development stats in all of South Asia? And that Bihar which is predominantly hindu (85%+) has the worst economic and educational stats in India.

That maybe under-development and under-education is still the biggest problem in South Asia? That we should not pretend that one community has the monopoly of all the problems in India.

concerned1:
Thank you for posting those stats. from the censuses. It is always good to have a debate based on facts.
Changes in the religious composition of the population could be due to three factors:
1- Conversion
2- Migration
3- Birth rate

Conversion, in my opinion, is not a significatn factor. Given the hot button nature of conversion, any mass conversion hits the media pretty quickly and we haven`t read too many instances of this.
Migration may be a significant factor, especially since the creation of Bangladesh, porous borders with Bangladesh and better economic prospects in India.
I had acknowledged the differences between Hindu and Muslim birth rates, but attributed them to the low level of literacy rates among Muslims, esp. women. Not only is there a large gap between the literacy rates among Hindu and Muslim females, the Muslim literacy rate is actually lower than the stated figures because, as per the definition of Indian literacy, anyone merely able to read-write in Arabic script, which is what many women would have learnt, is considered to be a literate.
Let me tell you how literacy affects not only population but also health. Last January, India mounted a huge campaign to eradicate polio. A rumour spread among Muslims that the govt. was giving polio drops to Muslims to reduce their birth rates; I heard some Muslim women urging boycot of the campaign as it would render ``our boys`` impotent.
But the Hindu apprehensions in this matter are somewhat comprehensible. Demographic changes are somewhat like glaciers - slow moving but deep in their effect. So, I would advocate a sterner population control measures in India to reduce both the growth and disparities in the growth rates of population. I believe that the govt. has already taken some measures to deprive people with large families of certain privileges; more could be done as has been done in China.

pmishra2,

I`ll bite - I assume you are referring to Nepal and Bihar.

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I don`t agree with your assessment of Farzana Versey.

...for every farzana versey in india there is an mj akbar, abdul kalam, or azim premji...so let`s not generalize about indian muslims this and indian muslims that....

maybe not...

#24 Mantolives

Like our Garg Sahib, you too are tilting at imaginary demons. Let me suggest that you take the time to actually read my post. While it must be emotionally satisfying to label people as this-or-that, it is better to actually respond to what is being stated.

I will not answer my own questions yet: I think they serve as a kind of ``test`` for people`s prejudices and imaginings. The answers, which are well known, may surprise many people.

Maybe I jumped the gun with P-Mishra`s latest post. Maybe he was saying something else. In that case I apologize profusely.

In case he was defending muslims and suggesting some other country as backward, it is a very surprising departure from his well known position as enunciated on Saima Shah`s board...

-Manto

re: PK Garg

You should compare notes with Tahir Mirza. Tahir Mirza seems confused and you seem ill informed. However the two of you share a very skewed vision, which believes in the myopia of your own insecurities.

Ciao

Subroto,

“…Btw please take a good look at the growth rate for communities as given in the sarkari census and not in the khakhi chaddiwallahs handbook. As per 1971 survey Hindus constituted 82.7% and Muslims 11.2% of the population. The corresponding figures for 1991 census are Hindus 82.6% and Muslims 11.4%, so much for the randy muslim myth…”


dost_mittar,

“…This is gross exaggeration. There is only a small difference in the birth rates of Muslims and Non-Muslims…”

The real data –

http://www.censusindia.net/results/eci15_page5.html

According to table 8, between 1981 to 1991, hindus have grown 22.78% while muslims have grown 32.76%
The muslim growth rate is 10% higher than hindus. This excludes J & K.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/1299/h033.html

Historically Muslim group consistently showed higher population growth than many other religious groups. For example, during the last several decades the proportion of Muslims in India`s population has been steadily increasing while that of Hindus steadily failing. In the undivided India, the Muslim share increased from 20 percent in 1881 to 24 percent in 1941 while that of Hindus declined from 75 percent to about 70 percent (Table 1). In the post-Independence period, 1951 to 1991, the proportion of Muslim population increased from a little less than 10 percent to 12 percent and the proportion of Hindus declined from 85 percent to to 82 percent (Table 2). The growth rate has also been higher for Muslims than for Hindus. For example, the percentage increase during 1951-61, 1961-71, 1971-81 and 1981-91 was 33, 31, 31 and 33 respectively for Muslims and 21, 24, 24 and 23 respectively for Hindus (Table 3).

table 3:
Percentage Growth rate
1971-81 Muslims (30.58) Hindus (24.15)
1981-91 Muslims(32.76) Hindus (22.78)

hindu growth rate has decreased, muslims growth rate has increased thereby widening the gap between hindus and muslims (from 6% to 10%)

Percentage population:
1951 Hindus (84.99) Muslims (9.93)
1991 Hindus (82) Muslims(12.12)

in a period of 40 years, the gap between hindus and muslims has narrowed down by 6%

saxena...#15
not that it`s any of your bloody business...but i said i wouldn`t be on as often as i usually am...and eventually i`d be gone. you think i`m cheap...your cheap potshots are all over the blasted place.
think about that one. . .when your brain`s fully functioning.

apologies for diverting from the topic at hand.

There goes p-mishra with his myopic anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim views again... Please do inform us as to what the answers to those questions again?

Also... I am the first to admit that Pakistan is far from perfect... infact I have enumerated my own problems with the country, but such generalizations as this guy makes are hardly based on the truth. The question about `backwardness` obviously requires a definition of backwardness... by many definitions Pakistan wouldn`t seem like that much of a backward country.

People like P-mishra will never let us have peace. I am convinced that the only way to neutralize P-Mishra and other hate mongers is to have more people to people contact, and that means more Indians travelling into Pakistan and seeing Pakistan for themselves...

-Manto

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dost mittar #16 Good response to the article. One minor quibble: Let`s not call individuals who promote divisions within Indian society in the name of islam, or the muslim ummah, as ``good muslims`` even jokingly. Good muslims in India are those vast majority of Indian muslims who peacefully go about their business in India. Since good muslims are expected to live in peace with the broader community.