Can Muslims Become Part of Mainstream Nationalism?

PK Garg, you are expressing a real grief with some confusion. Not sure either there is a prejudice or not but its obvious that you don’t find a pigeon hole for them. The idea exporting Muslims is not new.

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re: #82 by sarwar
There is something terribly wrong with a religion that makes a person turn to Jehad when he is in a majority. He/She forgets the national roots, the institutions that nurture the concepts of democracy and secularism. All that remains is religion, in its worst manifestations. Mumbra is a case in point.
Sridhar

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The one-word answer is ``NO``.

Here are a couple of articles about progress in education made by Indian Muslims. They should be of special interest to Chowk’s leading exponent of ‘human rights’.

Changing face of Pune schools

The Muslim community has broken the traditional monopoly over academic merit

FAR AWAY from neighbouring Mumbai`s bomb blasts, a radical change is taking place in Pune, often referred to as the `Oxford of the East`. The Joshis, the Gadgils and the Abhyankars who glittered atop the State Secondary School Certificate (SSC) Board merit lists for generations, are being replaced by the Ansaris, the Mistrys and the Karigars. These are not children of the old Muslim elite, but are second, or even first, generation learners.

This year`s topper, Wajeda Karigar, lives in a slum with her parents, brothers, their brood and their sewing machines. The only one among four children to continue studying after school, Wajeda would rise every morning at 4.30 a.m. to be able to get two hours of study, uninterrupted by the blaring music from the neighbours` homes.

Surprisingly, even educationists in Pune are unaware that Wajeda is fifth in an unbroken line of Board toppers from the same institution: the Anglo Urdu High School. Three of her four predecessors are girls; all but one of them wear black burqas. They not only topped their district but also stood first among the girls from all over Maharashtra.

So how did the country`s educationally most backward community break the Pune Brahmins` century-old monopoly over academic merit? How did a 70-year-old Urdu school overtake some of the country`s most prestigious educational institutions?

It did not happen overnight. Wajeda`s success came after 16 years of continuous effort by the head of a trust which runs the school to prove to his community that it is as gifted as any other, and that if it puts its heart to it, no one can stop it from excelling.

P.A. Inamdar, who took over as chairman of the Haji Gulam Md. Azam Educational Trust in 1983, has little time for what he describes as his community`s ``persecution complex``. He prefers instead, to draw his community`s attention to B.R. Ambedkar`s triumph over poverty, educational backwardness and centuries-old prejudice, all of which he characterises as handicap faced by most Indians, not Muslims alone. What characterises Muslims, rues Mr. Inamdar, is a complete lack of drive because they have been conditioned to believe that the system is against them.

…

It is interesting to look at the fallout of this shift. As has happened with all other gradual changes within the Muslim community, this too has been ignored by the mainstream press. A few Pune academics welcome it, though they ask whether ``mastery over learning techniques equals mastery over knowledge.`` But most reactions range from the dismissive (``it is to compensate for the loss of the Babri Masjid``), to the suspicious (``let an Urdu examiner from outside Maharashtra revaluate the toppers` papers so that the mischief can be nipped in the bud``), and the envious (``they should have shared their method with all the schools``).

Mr. Inamdar has relied on the foolproof nature of the SSC Board results to convince his community that no examiner can deny a deserving Muslim student the marks due to him/her. The cycles gifted by the local Shiv Sena unit at special felicitation functions to toppers Zarine Ansari, Sadiqa Ansari, Bilal Mistry, Majida Roghangar and Wajeda are testimony to his belief.

…


See also

Mainstream and the Muslims

#77 dost-mittar

Don`t forget Panini ! Panini was a Gandhar native (Afghan) who formulated the first formal grammar for a language. He is also a renowned Sanskrit scholar.

I look forward to visiting Paninini-Serai in Islamabad sometime (:-

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HisExcellency#72
I had written a response to your post but I may have pushed the wrong button. So, I have to write again.
I agree with most of what you say. I have frequently said on chowk how my parents` daily lives were not very different from those of their Muslim neighbours in Panjab.
It is at the intellectual/elite level that the differences surface. As my friend Sameer keeps asking, how come Pakistan does not name/rename its streets, towns and townships after its local heroes like Porus, Chanakya or Kalidas, Aryabhata, etc., while the foreign Arab and even Persian names keep sprouting?
When I read learned Pakistanis` columns in your newspapers, or even at chowk, I find they are quite adept at using not only references from Arab and Persian classics but also Greek, Latin and French classics. But I have never seen them using any references to the classical literature native to their own land. They cannot because they have rejected their old classical languages and literature alongwith their old religion.

#72 HisExcellency

For a change I am using your entire monikker because your message is deserving of it. Thanks for explaining the difficulty within islam because of these ideas about ``finality``. Also for acknowledging, that inshallah, perhaps an appropriate reformation within educated muslims will remove some of theese excessive rigidities.

Do you also understand why Indians have some difficulty with the systematic, complete and triumphal erasure of indic identity among some indian muslims? When the look at Jinnah (Shia from hinduized parents) and Iqbal (grandparents were hindus) they reach the conclusion that most fundamental to islam is erasure of the older indic identity and separation from it. And that brings a host of suspicion and concerns that are still playing out today.

re:#74 by Subroto
Thanks for the post. You are absolutely right. I also have this theory that the statistics favor the Hindus because of a larger middle class in any given segment of population. There are a number of reasons why muslims in India do not have a larger middle class. Much of the elite went to Pak during partition. Lack of good leadership and shunning the public school education as being ``hindu`` education are some other reasons.
Sridhar

Re Shridhar # 73 ``In order to prove discrimination, you need to take a population from the same geographical location``
I think you are on the mark here - it would be interesting to compare the statistics for Muslims from Kerala with that of Muslims from Uttar Pradesh. And as UP has a larger population guess what the statistical outcome is?

re: post# 53 by Romair
So, Romair has come out with some statistics showing muslims in India are being discriminated and he quotes a milligazette website. How about some independent unbiased authority?
Even if those statistics are true, it only proves what i have been saying all along. Muslims are not in the mainstream. Those statistics do not prove anything more than the fact that muslims are grossly underrepresented in govt jobs, administrative posts etc. Where does the idea of discrimination come in here?
In order to prove discrimination, you need to take a population from the same geographical location, with same level of income, educational qualification etc and see how many muslims chidren from that area are going on to become doctors, engineers etc and how many men go on into govt jobs, adminstrative jobs etc. If statistically significant number of hindus from the same geographical area with same educational qualification are getting into govt jobs, civil service etc, than the muslims, then one can make a case. A nationwide or even statewide statistics does not prove discrimination.
Then there are private institutions where merit alone counts. Why are there not many many muslims in Wipro? I heard Azim Premji is so professional that he has not allowed even his sons to take advantage of his position in the company. May be there are not many qualified muslim candidates.
And then there are these entrance exams to professonal institutions like JEE (for IIT), joint medical exam etc where there is no discrimination because these are standardised tests and candidates are known by their roll numbers and not name or religion. All these exams are now computerised.
What if muslims in India are not interested in joining the mainstream and have been staying away? This has been my contention. Can hindus help if muslims are saying that we do not want to send our children to same school as hindus and we don`t care if our women do not become doctors or engineers? To the hindus, they seem to say, preserving our islamic culture is more important because if we mingle with the hindus, we will surely lose our culture. Warped logic but it comes out of a minority complex, especially if that minority has seen much loss during partition and does not have good leadership today.
Finally, as Ferozk pointed out, why are there disproportionately larger number of muslims in Bollywood and art scene in India. Surely Romair is not suggesting that hindus are being discriminated here!
Sridhar
P.S: i have no doubt whatsoever that ordinary muslims in India feels discriminated against. This is a minority complex at play. Is he really being discriminated ? I am not so sure.

#55 by dost-mittar

Thanks for the clarification.

You are basically saying that instead of replacing Hindu heritage and disowning it, Muslim converts ought to synthesize Islamic teachings/culture with Hindu teachings/culture.

You only need to take a step backward to realize how Hinduized the Indian Muslims have become. Even Pakistan Muslims (especially Punjabis and Sindhis) follow several Hindu customs. In fact, Indian/Pakistani Muslims enjoy more cultural affinity with Hindus than they do with Arabs, Iranians, Malaysians, Somalians, Turks and Bosnian Muslims.

However, the real clash between the two societies is in the realm of history and theology.
IMHO, the two histories and theologies are so radically different that no synthesis is possible. The differences among Islam, Judaism and Christianity are minuscule in comparison with the differences between these semitic religions and Hinduism. However, Hindus have been characteristically flexible about these differences. While they have embraced Islamic concepts, the Muslims have not embraced Hindu concepts. Synthesis has largely been unidirectional, instead of bidirectional.

This is because Muslims believe that Quran is the final and unchanging word of God. A Muslim is taught from childhood that there are no other paths to salvation except the path of Muhammad. It is because of this cardinal belief that Muslims shy away from studying other religions.

The Quran specifically asks the Muslims to ponder over religion (not just Islam) and understand its essence. This certainly means that the closed-mindedness of Muslim world is self-imposed... not imposed by Islam.

So I guess you need to give the Indian Muslims another 20 years to reach the level of literacy needed for rational study of other religions and history. 90% of Muslim world is living under dictatorship/theocracy/semi-democratic govt. In this environment, power and status are derived from authority/religion... not knowledge or capability. Until this culture changes, history text books and religious doctrine will remain rigid and exclusive.

romair # 69

`` But, in the end, it is your responsibility to look after Indian Muslims. They are in India willingly. If you think they are doing well, who am I to argue. I certainly don’t think Pakistani Hindus are doing well. I feel they need far more affirmative action. The worse thing I could do to them, would be to try to portray that they are doing well. ``

Indian Hindus can set up a fair system - like JEE for IITs, common public exam for 12th std students, civil service exams etc. They cannot guarantee equal outcomes. Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. Competition in India for white collar and business opportunities is fierce.

I would not say there is equal opportunity in India for everyone. The problem in India is growing the size of the overall pie. It is still small after a decade of economic boom.

I am still waiting for a response as to why Indians outnumber Pakistanis disproportionately in academia in USA.

re: m-souza# 60

Thanks, for stating the truth and helping in the understanding of the reasons behind the hate.

Ciao

vereesh #59: ``Point is not in the numbers. Point is that if a person has the capability to make it, he will.``

I am unaware of one of the three names you mentioned as Chiefs of Staff. I will leave it up to our resident IAF expert Mr. Stuka to point out the accuracies or inaccuracies.

As for your comment, above. I completely disagree. One cannot use the criteria that if one has the capability, one will make it, by pointing to a few examples. There have to be opportunities given to enhance the capability of the whole community, thereby resulting in a broad level of success.

The success of Indian Muslims in Indian IT is not decided by one Premji. It is decided by the broad percentage of Indian Muslims in IITs. It is not decided by one Air Marshall, it is decided by the percentage of Indian Muslims who are Flight Lieutenants and Sargents.

In Pakistan, Maleeha Lodhi is a women who traces her heritage to Baluchistan (I think), i.e. a Baluchi woman. She is perhaps the most prominent and well-known woman from South Asia (unlike Benazir, she is known for all the right reasons). She was voted one of the seventy most influential people in the world by Newsweek, two years ago. Musharraf and Vajpayee were the only other South Asians on this list. And one of the forty people who would have an effect on the world`s future (or something of that sort) by Time Magazine (nine years ago). She is a Ph.D. from LSE, where she taught also. And she has been an editor of a major Pakistani newspaper.

One cannot have a better resume that that. I would make her the President of Pakistan, if I was a political leader.

Another prominent Baluchi woman is Zubaida Jalal. She is a philanthrapist, who built schools in the most remote parts of Pakistan. Musharraf made her a minister, in his military govt., while she was in her early forties. In the last election, she won in an open contest against tribal Baluchi sardars, as an independent candidate, in a very remote part of Baluchistan. This is unheard of, even for a man. She thus, may have become the first Baluchi women, in the history of that whole area (pre-Pakistan also) to have won an elected federal seat (I believe there was a Baluchi female vice-chairman of Senate, named Noor Jehan Panazai, or something, at one time. But Senators do not participate in a public election in Pakistan).

Even more impressive is the fact, that her husband lost from those areas. And even more impressive is that a few days after the election, she delivered a child. She is currently a federal minister in the cabinet.

So using your logic, since these two women made it, if any other Baluchi women is, “talented enough,” she will make it also. However, that is not true. These two are big exceptions. The literacy rate of women in Baluchistan is 3.6% - perhaps the lowest in the world. This means that 96.4% of Baluchi women will never even get the opportunity to try to make it. One of them could be the next great English poet. But she won’t be able to pursue it, if she cannot even read or write.

Yosuf Yohanna is my favorite cricket player, other than Imran Khan. Yohanna could be the next Pakistan cricket captain. This is a position, which could be considered the most well-known, after Prime Minister of the country. From what I have read, he is the son of a sweeper – the poorest of the poor jobs in Pakistan. On top of that, a Christian sweeper, thereby making his position even more weak in a predominantly Muslim country. Yet he has made it so far. Does this mean that if sons of Christian sweepers have the talent, they will make it as cricketers in Pakistan? I doubt it, since there are very few, if any, such broad examples at other levels of Pakistani cricket. It just means that Yohanna is an exceptional human being, who has made it despite of massive odds.

So one needs a broad level of examples, from all levels, to support the fact that a minority community is doing well, in comparison to other communities. In case of Indian Muslims (and East Pakistani Bengalis, Pakistani Christians etc.) these examples are not available. The statistics point them out. There are only exceptions, who have made it against massive odds.

But, in the end, it is your responsibility to look after Indian Muslims. They are in India willingly. If you think they are doing well, who am I to argue. I certainly don’t think Pakistani Hindus are doing well. I feel they need far more affirmative action. The worse thing I could do to them, would be to try to portray that they are doing well.

Vereesh/Stuka: I have based my info on the following Bharat Rakshak website. Could either of you highlight whether the info is correct or not:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Air-Chiefs/Chiefs-Air-10.html

It states the following, ``It was no surprise that Latif made his way to become the first Muslim Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force.``

Aspy Engineer was before Latif. So that would contradict Vereesh`s info.

This is just to update my own info. Not for any other reason. Whether India has ten Muslims Chiefs or one, is immaterial to me (apart from the curiousity of comparing what my odds would have been had I been in India)......

Re : Romair # 53

“Following are some statistics I have gotten from various other Indian and Pakistani sites, about Indian Muslims. Kindly point out any inaccuracies.

- 116 Muslims out of a total of 3883 administrative officers (2.98%),
- 45 out of 1433 police service officers (3.14%) and 57 out of 2159 foreign service officers (2.64%).
- In central government, Muslims constitute 1.6% of all class I officers, 3.9% of all class II officers and 4.4% of the technical supervisory staff
- Almost 13 percent of India’s population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3 percent of the government employees”

I can’t verify your stats but while you are explaining the discrimination against Muslims in India can you explain why every third person in the movie business is a Muslim. It’s the same in the advertising business. One in five in the diamonds business is a Muslim and the carpet industry is overwhelmingly Muslim.


Faruk

Dear Alpehnull # 65, yes, you have got that correctly, the boundaries of Parsi / Zoroastrian identity (or for that matter even the Bahai identity, if you wish to call it that) have traditionally included Muslims, especially in India, who felt they were being persecuted.

I don`t want to get into an argument on ``persecuted by whom``.

Zoroastrians, Ba`hais, Jews, Orthodox Christians of a variety of hues . . . as well as other persecuted communities . . . have traditionally found refuge from persecution in India. As you are no doubt aware.

So, here`s a hint for you:- if you as a Muslim are being persecuted by other Muslims, in India, what do you do?

And, when (not if) in my rigid Indian community I meet relatives of mine with the surname of, say, Tyabji or Engineer or Bastani, then I can safely assume that they could be Zoroastrian, Bahai, Muslim, Sikh, Christian or even Hindu.

Can you tell me what religion Afzalpurkar would be?

#62 Veeresh

Veeresh, I have absolutely no problem accepting the notion that beyond a certain level your religion just does not matter in India.

I had no idea, however, that the boundaries of Parsi identity were ever as fluid as you seem to hint. In my naïve outsider ignorance, I accepted the received notion that they were as rigid as it gets for any Indian community. I do know that there are non-Parsi Zoroastrians. Mea culpa…

Ref Field Marshal Hotair #53

[Azim Premji is definitely extremely successful in IT (small technical sidenote: he is not in the North American IT industry. Wipro is India-based).]

I suppose that is why I lost the competition at Mellon Bank. The VP at Mellon told me that his board had directed him to deal with the Top 5 Indian IT companies and those were Infosys, TCS, WIPRO, Satyam and IBM Global Services. I guess when I was competing against Wipro at Cisco, that msut have been a mirage.

Infosys is equally India-based. Infosys hands out stock options and its ADR is traded in the US. Azim Premji did not hand out stock options even to his top executives and that is why some of them left to start MindTree. But that doesn`t mean that WIPRO doesn`t work the international scene.

[Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims?]

Maybe Azim Premji doesn`t believe in zakat! Maybe he expects value for money, just like his worldwide customers do.

[What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.]

But how about the Indian Muslim population in the Middle East? Aren`t they far greater than the 13% they represent in India`s population? Or, doesn`t that count?

#53

{{What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population?}}

In my undergraduate class, a shade over 1% (3 out of 260). Significantly, two other ‘minority’ religious communities I noted were substantially over-represented. There was no credible evidence that the entrance exam was anything but religion-oblivious.

{{ I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness.}}

and

{{I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.}}

To assist your thinking, let me follow bbabu and refer you to the faculty of computer science departments in the United States. My observations are consistent with people of Indian birth (identified primarily by the institutions granting their first degrees) outnumbering Pakistanis by a factor of at least fifty to one, if not more. This, despite Indians/Indian-Americans in the US outnumbering Pakistanis/Pakistani-Americans by barely two to one. [In fact, I’ve seen more Iranian-Americans in CS academia than Pakistanis, despite a smaller base population of Iranians.]

Here are some possible reasons for this massive backwardness of Pakistanis compared to Indians (an egregious human-rights violation, surely):

(1) Pakistanis as a group lack the single-minded dedication to education needed to make academia a career option.

(2) Pakistanis just aren’t bright enough to make it to CS faculties. They are condemned to drive cabs all their lives.

(3) Pakistanis don`t consider this indicative of backwardness. They are way too smart to ruin their lives as small-time manqué academics. They’d rather make a quick buck as businessmen or smooth-talking sales-and-marketing types.

(4) Those with first degrees from Pakistan lack the solid foundation needed to excel in graduate school, and simply aren’t able to make up their deficiencies in time.

(5) The white American establishment in US academia actively discriminates against Muslim Pakistanis or in favour of Indians in faculty hiring and tenure decisions (and in grad school admissions).

(6) Indians infesting US academia actively discriminate against Pakistanis in grad student admission, and in faculty hiring and tenure decisions.

(7) Pakistanis had a late start in this field, and continue to have trouble catching up, while the rest of the world isn’t standing still.

(8) A weighted combination of one or more of the above reasons

I suggest that the situation of Indian Muslims is of similar complexity and all possible explanations – including the history, culture, outlook, motivations and preferences of that community and its segments - must be considered, not just the risible ‘human-rights’ baloney which you favour.

Hi Alpehnull . . . there are & were enough Parsees in India who were Muslims a couple of generations ago. There are enough Muslims in India who are not considered Muslims in other Islamic countries. The reasons are not what I wish to go into today.

So the answer to your question on whether Aspy Engineer was a Parsee, is YES.

But.

Is Nusli Wadia, ergo any Wadia, a Parsee or a Muslim? Was Jinnah, ergo any Jinnah, a Muslim or a Parsee? Was Feroze Gandhi, ergo any Gandhi, a Parsee or a Muslim? Was Johnny Greene of the IAF a Muslim or a Christian? Was Aspy Engineer ergo any other surname ``Engineer``, a Parsee or a Muslim?

Point I am making here for the benefit of Romair and the larger benefit of others is that beyond a particular level in India, your religion does not matter.

Now what is preventing a particular community from drawing up to that level, and then surpassing it, is another question altogether.

#51 Stuka

{{Air Chief Marshal Ibrahim Latif}}

Air Chief Marshal Idris Hasan Latif

#59 Veeresh

{{A.M. Engineer}}

Hmmm. Wasn’t late Air Marshal Aspy Engineer a Parsi?

#55 by dost-mittar on August 27, 2003 2:27pm PT
HisExcellency:
You are right. I did not mean it literally. The point is that in having a Muslim grandchild, I am taking the risk that he would one day turn out to be a member of SIMI or LeT. A Hindu grandchild could also, unortunately, turn out to be a Hindu fanatic. But at least he wont want to destroy India even if he faced discrimination. And he wouldn`t start denying that I was his ancestor as a large majority of subcotinental Muslims have done to his ancestors. He wouldn`t reject his language and cultute and turn my heroes into his villians and my villians (Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi) into his heroes.

---

dost-mittar ji, I heartily agree with you.
It is the denial of their ancestors by the muslims and it is the glorification of the villians liek Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi as heroes that is really really bugging. And one can`t help feeling that anyone who does this false glorification is nothing but a traitor to our land.

The three Muslim Air Chiefs for the IAF:-

a) A.M. Engineer. (Maybe not Muslim enough for Pakistanis, but in India, fine by us)
b) I.H. Latif.
c) The third one I would like to leave un-named here, because his Muslim ancestry was not public domain, but can be easily tracked if required.

In addition, does the name ``Johnny Greene`` suggest a religion, for those interested in the IAF?

Point is not in the numbers. Point is that if a person has the capability to make it, he will.

Incidentally, while we are at it, one of the most visible Muslim names in the Indian echelons of power was and is actually a Christian.

More importantly, once you reach a level, who cares what your religion is or was, as long as your fundamentals are sound?

Romair #53

`` First of all, there haven’t been three Indian Muslim Air Force Chiefs. Considering the fact that you are from a military family, I am quite disappointed you do not know this. I have always stated that Pakistanis knew more about India than Indians knew about Pakistan. But perhaps Pakistanis know more about India than even Indians know about India :-)``

There has been at least one air force chief in Indian military - Latif in the late 70s. Indian military generals do not command any power like their Pakistani counterparts.

There have been Muslim Chief Ministers in Maharastra, Pondicherry.

`` Secondly, you need not get defensive (why do Indian’s get so defensive, so quickly, when someone critiques them? Is it the lack of salt in the diet? :-)). I am not attacking Indians’ treatment of Muslims. They are your citizens. You are responsible for them. I am not. Unlike Kashmiris, they are willingly living with India, hence you decide how you should treat them.

I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness. This is why I equally pointed out problems in Pakistan with Bengalis etc. Specifically, so our Indian colleagues would not get defensive. But, I apparently failed.``

Bengalis are not backward to West Pakistanis. Indian Muslims trail Indian Hindus by a wide margin.

`` Statistically speaking (at least all the statistics I have read), the ratios of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. jobs is similar to those of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. jobs, circa 1971 (note to our Indian friends: I am criticizing both Pakistan and India here, to avoid defensive comments. B-o-t-h being the key word, even though the article is only about India). Let me highlight:``

Bengalis are 56% of population. Indian Muslims are 12%. Big difference !!!

`` This is one area I know about much better than you. Take a look at the executive staff of his own company. Are there any Muslims? Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims? What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.``

There is nothing subjective about IIT exams. The guy grading your exam sees a dummy serial number not even your name.

`` In the US university I attended, there were hundreds of Indian engineering students. I was friends with many of them. Only four or five (or less) were Muslims. There were many (forty or more) Indian professors. Not a single one was a Muslim.``

Why don`t you compare the number of young Pakistani professors with young Indian professors in USA ? (young as in below the age of 40). The ratio will be much greater than 8:1. I put the qualifier below the age of 40 because Indians had to deal with numerical quotas in the 1970s and 1980s. Does it mean Pakistanis are being discriminated in USA (pre-Sep 11)

`` Your Azim Premji example is similar to stating that Benazir was the PM of Pakistan, hence women are doing great in Pakistan. Or that Jamali is the PM of Pakistan, hence Baluchis are doing great in Pakistan. When in fact, women and Baluchis are doing not too well in Pakistani (the only person it applies to correctly is Musharraf. He is the President and the Muhajirs are doing very well, at every level).``

Jamali is a figurehead. Azimji has real money.

`` (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01022001/Art24.htm)``

millgazete is a Muslim fundamentalist newspaper spouting apologies for the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.

correction #53: ``Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (an Indian federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet).``

should read,

``Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (a Hindu federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet).``

#55 His``XXXX``

I have not suggested that there any unusual problems with indian muslims. There may be problems with wahhabi islam, there may be problems with the jehadi culture of pakistan. And these may be relevant to indian muslims. Other than that I disagree with this Garg twit completely.

I was making a very narrow comment on the ``hindu`` origins of Iqbal and Jinnah in response to dost-mittar.

HisExcellency:
You are right. I did not mean it literally. The point is that in having a Muslim grandchild, I am taking the risk that he would one day turn out to be a member of SIMI or LeT. A Hindu grandchild could also, unortunately, turn out to be a Hindu fanatic. But at least he wont want to destroy India even if he faced discrimination. And he wouldn`t start denying that I was his ancestor as a large majority of subcotinental Muslims have done to his ancestors. He wouldn`t reject his language and cultute and turn my heroes into his villians and my villians (Mohammad bin Qaasim/Ghauri/Ghaznavi) into his heroes.

``Essentially you are saying that the purpose for creation of Secular India is to preserve the Hindu culture/Hindu-ness of India. Isn`t this a contradiction?? Its like Henry Ford saying that you can buy a Ford in any color, as long as its black.``

I did not say so in that post. There is nothing wrong in natural evolution. Even though I wish that Prithvi Raj Chauhan had driven back Mohammad Ghauri, I fully accept India`s Islamic heritage as my own. I am as critical of those who want to cleanse our history of its Muslim past as I am of those who deride its pre-Islamic past.
But I have also no hesitation in admitting that India has a special responsibility to preserve its Hindu culture. After all, it is the only country which can do that. Otherwise, Hindu culture will go the way of the zorastrian/Parsi culture and a rich part of the human heritage will be lost to the world.
Having said that, I am definitely against having only a Black Ford. Heck, I want as many models as possible. This multi-coloured mosaic is what makes India, India. So, India has responsibility not only to preserve its Hindu culture, but also its Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi and, especially its Sikh, Jain, Parsee, Kabirpanthis and tribal cultures which are unique to India.
Indeed, this desire to convert the whole world into dar-ul-Islam (black Ford) is what I find least appealing about Islam. Indeed, once you enter this ``Black Ford``, you cant even ask to leave it without losing your life.

vereesh #48: “There have been 3 Chiefs of Air Staff who were Muslim….”

First of all, there haven’t been three Indian Muslim Air Force Chiefs. Considering the fact that you are from a military family, I am quite disappointed you do not know this. I have always stated that Pakistanis knew more about India than Indians knew about Pakistan. But perhaps Pakistanis know more about India than even Indians know about India :-)

Secondly, you need not get defensive (why do Indian’s get so defensive, so quickly, when someone critiques them? Is it the lack of salt in the diet? :-)). I am not attacking Indians’ treatment of Muslims. They are your citizens. You are responsible for them. I am not. Unlike Kashmiris, they are willingly living with India, hence you decide how you should treat them.

I am just pointing out that a human rights based concept that one cannot blame a minority community for their backwardness. This is why I equally pointed out problems in Pakistan with Bengalis etc. Specifically, so our Indian colleagues would not get defensive. But, I apparently failed.

If what you say is correct, then Muslims seem to be doing alright in India. Then this whole article is a sham, since it states that the Muslims are not doing well (due to their own faults, according to this article).

Statistically speaking (at least all the statistics I have read), the ratios of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. jobs is similar to those of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. jobs, circa 1971 (note to our Indian friends: I am criticizing both Pakistan and India here, to avoid defensive comments. B-o-t-h being the key word, even though the article is only about India). Let me highlight:

“Of course, our nuclear programme has been headed by a Muslim.”

This is true. But how many Muslims are in the departments related to this nuclear program? I actually don’t know. Could you highlight? Our next cricket captain maybe a Christian, but that doesn’t mean Christians have excellent sporting facilities in Pakistan. It is the sole effort and success of one individual.

“Does Aziz Premji qualify as succesful in the North American IT industry?”

Azim Premji is definitely extremely successful in IT (small technical sidenote: he is not in the North American IT industry. Wipro is India-based). I am infact trying to hook up with his company, to understand his secret to success. But he is also an exception.

This is one area I know about much better than you. Take a look at the executive staff of his own company. Are there any Muslims? Out of the 18000 of so people in his IT company, how many are Muslims? What is the ratio of Muslims in IITs, in comparison to their population? I have met hundreds of Indians in IT in North America. Maybe 1% to 2% were Muslims. Nearly every South Asian Muslim in IT I meet ends up being Pakistani. There should be twice or thrice as many Indian Muslims in North American IT industry, than Pakistani Muslims, considering how far ahead India is in this field. Yet there seem to be only a fraction.

In the US university I attended, there were hundreds of Indian engineering students. I was friends with many of them. Only four or five (or less) were Muslims. There were many (forty or more) Indian professors. Not a single one was a Muslim.

Your Azim Premji example is similar to stating that Benazir was the PM of Pakistan, hence women are doing great in Pakistan. Or that Jamali is the PM of Pakistan, hence Baluchis are doing great in Pakistan. When in fact, women and Baluchis are doing not too well in Pakistani (the only person it applies to correctly is Musharraf. He is the President and the Muhajirs are doing very well, at every level).

One successful person does not mean the success of a community. There has to be a broad spread success, at all levels.

“Well, amigo, I think you don`t like to accept the simple fact that whether you were in India or Pakistan you would have done as well.”

This is a possibility. But statistically speaking, not a very big one. The following is from the Indian Muslim magazine

“Though Muslims account for more than 12 % of the total population of India, their percentage in government jobs is less than 3 % ( mostly in lower grades). Their representation in Nationalized Banks and other Public Sector Units of the Centre and State Governments is much lower than their share in the Government jobs.” (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01022001/Art24.htm)

Following are some statistics I have gotten from various other Indian and Pakistani sites, about Indian Muslims. Kindly point out any inaccuracies.

- 116 Muslims out of a total of 3883 administrative officers (2.98%),
- 45 out of 1433 police service officers (3.14%) and 57 out of 2159 foreign service officers (2.64%).
- In central government, Muslims constitute 1.6% of all class I officers, 3.9% of all class II officers and 4.4% of the technical supervisory staff
- Almost 13 percent of India’s population is Muslim, yet Muslims account for just 3 percent of the government employees

Hence my chances would be far less of doing, as well (at least statistically speaking), in India, as in Pakistan. Then again, I could have been the odd Premji. Just like you could be the odd Mr. Singh in Pakistan (an Indian federal minister in Nawaz Sharif’s cabinet). But the deck is stacked against both of us in each other’s country. I accept this, while you are unwilling to accept it. I don’t know why.

“Raj kapoor`s Mera Naam Joker had a few home truths in it. One of them was a song that went ``Chasma Uttaro . . .``”

Raj Kapoor is my favorite director. And I loved Mera Naam Joker. Is it possible that you are the one who needs to, “Take off your glasses” and understand the reality? And not me…….

#49 by pmishra2

In continuation of my previous post... I will simply say that the problem with Indian Muslims is not lack of nationalism or uniformity with rest of India.. The real problem is lack of liberal education. As the Muslim community embraces education, its isolationist tendencies will recede simultaneously. Instead of defining Muslim identity in terms of xenophobic traditionalism, the Muslim community will gradually learn to distinguish between the essence of Islam... and the rituals of Islam.

The former does not require Muslims to isolate themselves from other communities. The latter inexorably do.

#49 by pmishra2

Firstly, late entry into the fold of Islam is not considered a stigma in Islamic society. In fact, Muslim converts are often better Muslims than those who were simply born in a Muslim household. The former make a conscious decision to embrace new religions, whereas the latter are simply Muslims by default. This is true of every religion, not just Islam.

Secondly, your attempt to establish a correlation between religion and intellectual ability is quite a non-starter. Maulana Maudoodi is considered the greatest Muslim scholar of this century even by non-Muslim commentators. His ancestors have been Muslim for generations. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was also a prominent bureaucrat, intellectual and educationist of India. Was he a recent convert? No.

Nevertheless, you are right that there are more Hindu/Christian intellectuals in India than Muslim ones. However, the reason for this is not religion but politics.

When the British came to India, the official language of India (i.e. language of letters, language of courts) was Persian. All Muslim intellectuals, lawmakers and jurists had proficiency of this language. When the British overthrew the Muslim rulers, they also replaced the language of the defeated Muslims with their own language. All imperial powers (e.g. France, Dutch) imposed their languages on the conquered colonies as an instrument of control and imperial domination. Moreover, this way the imperialists could weaken the existing elites.

The Muslim refusal to learn English was therefore political. It was rooted in their defiance of the new system including education. The advent of modernists like Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Jinnah, Iqbal, etc. has significantly changed attitudes in the Muslim world.. Yet a significant number of Muslims (especially in India) are still influenced by the same ``defiance mentality``.

Another reason for late entry of Muslims in educational fields... was the British policy of recruiting their British Indian Army from the Muslim-dominated Punjab and NWFP. After a stiff struggle to conquer the Punjab, the British declared the Pashtun/Punjabi/Sikhs as a martial race. There after, the people of these areas were encouraged to join the British Army instead of getting into business, government departments and educational institutions.

``There have been 3 Chiefs of Air Staff who were Muslim. More than a few Vice-Chiefs of Army. ``

Uumm, only one actually. Air Chief Marshal Ibrahim Latif. A very outstanding officer. Unfortunately the biggest chors in IAF have been Punjabis.

Heh, heh, I see that true defenders of secularism, freedom of speech, etc. have arrived -- the pakistanis. Truly, this nation is a light to all others !! Nowhere else do you find so many varied minorities all living together. In every Pakistani city, the call of sikh granthi and the hindu priest, mingle together with the mullah`s call!

What this is NOT the case !! Hain, yeh kya hua???

Thanks for sharing your great wisdom with us, pakistani lovers of freedom. Why not apply these noble concepts in your own land? oh, I see, that is not possible

---

secularism, freedom of speech are only for india, israel, USA and other satanic nations. Indeed, this is true wisdom !

oh, great Naqshbandi sahib ! What is the punishment for conversion from Islam to another religion in your noble sharia law? Please explain to us nalayak indians how beautiful your traditions are ! This will help us prepare ourslelf for the soon-to-be islamic india.

#42 dost-mittar

Our pakistani friends will not be taught this stuff but:

(1) Iqbal was a second generation muslim. His grand-parents were kashmiri pandits (sapru was the last name?). This is one reason he had access to a tradition of learning.

(2) Jinnah belonged to a hinduized Gujarati muslim background (even today you have such laid back gujarati muslims

---

i met one with the last name Gandhi

---

ahmed gandhi !). His was the first generation to be properly ``arabized`` with proper muslim last name etc. The family name is Poonja which was used by his parents.

You are correct to point out that both were recently ``arabized`` muslims (by cleansing of indic names etc.). In Iqbal`s case the parents were muslim converts. Many commentators have noted the significance of this background.

Romair #46 . . . you wrote . . .````My ancestors were from a backward part of the Sub-Continent. Far more backwards than say, Delhi, Bombay, Hyderabad, etc. Yet I had the opportunity to become a General (had I pursued the military), and an IT businessman in North America. Why is that I see no (by no, I literally mean almost zero) Indian Muslims who are successful in the Indian military or in the North American IT industry. ````

a) There have been 3 Chiefs of Air Staff who were Muslim. More than a few Vice-Chiefs of Army. Navy I don`t remember, but I think there was one. And if the Civil Services as well as para-military forces are taken into account, then would a few Foreign Secretaries do? Of course, our nuclear programme has been headed by a Muslim. And as for some of our Intelligence agencies, sniff around. But then, maybe they weren`t Muslim enough for you?

b) Does Aziz Premji qualify as succesful in the North American IT industry? OK, maybe he doesn`t, because he chose to live on in India. Tell you what, then, hop across to Intel and ask them? Or take a look at some of the photographs there? Here again, maybe your definition of Muslim would be, uhhhm, exclusive?

Why is it that you don`t see? Well, amigo, I think you don`t like to accept the simple fact that whether you were in India or Pakistan you would have done as well.

Raj kapoor`s Mera Naam Joker had a few home truths in it. One of them was a song that went ``Chasma Uttaro . . .``

#42 by dost-mittar

++
Both Iqbal and Jinnah were relatively recent converts to Islam
++

Do you mean this literally??
As far as I know, Iqbal was born in a Muslim family. And Muhammad Ali Jinnah, his brothers and father (Poonja Ali Jinnah) were also Muslims.

++
Conversion to Islam means cultural genocide, as happened to pre-islamic culture in Pakistan
++

Essentially you are saying that the purpose for creation of Secular India is to preserve the Hindu culture/Hindu-ness of India. Isn`t this a contradiction?? Its like Henry Ford saying that you can buy a Ford in any color, as long as its black.

I think India should let nature take its course. Curbing conversions to Islam because of fear of secession.. could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It will only convince the Muslims that despite talk of secularism, their government is not ``religion-blind`` after all. They will begin to perceive themselves as second-class citizens in India. (This would be a big blow for secularists even in Pakistan.. who draw inspiration from the example set by Nehru, Gandhi and Indira).

“Can Muslims be part of Mainstream Nationalism?”

After reading this article, as far as India is concerned, I would have to say No. Specifically, as long articles like this are written.

“There have been other minority communities in India over the centuries with whom there have been no major problems. Take Parsees for example. They have, while keeping their distinct identity, rites and customs, well synthesized with other communities.”

This is very dangerous logic. Let’s apply it to Pakistan.

The most successful religious community in Pakistan are the Parsees (I have no statistics, just a personal opinion). As a group, they are more successful than Sunnis and Shias even. Every Parsi I come across seems to be a doctor, a businessman, a dentist, a journalist etc. Another community that is successful in Pakistan (at a individual level) are Ahmedis. This may sound strange, but just go and look at their literacy rate. It maybe the highest in Pakistan. This is despite the fact that they are the only community to be officially persecuted by the State.

The two poorest minorities in Pakistan are Christians and Hindus. A high number of Christians in Pakistan are still stuck in the jobs that were reserved for Untouchables traditionally in India. While a large number of Hindus are still stuck in extremely poor feudal areas in Sind.

So applying the logic in this article, one could state, that since Parsees (and Ahmedis) have been able to be successful, and Hindus and Christians (with some exceptions) have not, hence it is the fault of the Hindus and Christians, and not the fault of the State, for the latter’s backwardness. Thereby placing all the blame on the minority community and not on the majority.

Similarly, by far the most successful ethnic group in Pakistan are the Muhajirs. There is no contest, in comparison to other ethnic groups in Pakistan. They are easily the richest, easily the most educated, most sophisticated, most upwardly mobile, with by a huge margin the largest percentage of a middle class in Pakistan. A disproportionately high number of Pakistani interactors (with respect to their total population) on Chowk must be Muhajir (my guess). I believe the founders/editors of this site are Muhajirs. 80% of Pakistan’s IT industry is run in Muhajir areas (Karachi).

A disproportionately high number of expatriates are Muhajirs. Similar statistics for civil servants. And despite Altaf Hussain’s complains about a, “Punjabi” Army, a disproportionately high number of Army generals have been Muhajirs, including nearly every single one of the Generals who carried out the last coup. Karachi has, by a huge margin, produced more Chiefs of Staff (Army, Navy and Air Force) than any other Pakistani city. Not to mention the fact that Musharraf himself is a Muhajir.

Compare this statistic to that of the Pakistani Bengalis in 1971. Bengalis participation in Pakistan’s govt. etc., was at the same percentage as that of Indian Muslims in the Indian govt. They were completely out of the loop. One could thus, using the logic of this article, state that Bengalis are themselves responsible for their lack of success, since Muhajirs have been so successful, even though, just like Bengalis, Muhajirs are not a part of the mainstream Punjabi/Pathan circle of Pakistan.

Or one could state that, while the Muhajirs have been successful due to their hard work, they also had an advantage of momentum from previous generations, which were educated and empowered. And the reason for the Bengalis being out of the loop are a historical lack of opportunity, complemented by a lack of interest by the State in providing them with affirmative action.

It is the responsibility of a community to take responsibility for their own progress. However, they cannot do it on their own. They need support – either from history or from the State. Pakistani Muslims belonged to the same overall Sub-Continental Muslim community, as Indian Muslims, pre 1947. Yet Pakistani Muslims, as a whole on average, since 1947 have had higher rates of economic growth than even Indian Hindus. They have caught up with Indian Hindus, even though at the time of partition, Indian Hindus, and Hindu majority areas, were perhaps a generation ahead of Pakistani areas in education, empowerment, etc. This does not only include the Muhajirs who migrated from advanced Hindu-majority areas of India. It also includes local Muslims of Pakistan – whose provinces as a whole was the most backward part of the Sub-Continent.

My ancestors were from a backward part of the Sub-Continent. Far more backwards than say, Delhi, Bombay, Hyderabad, etc. Yet I had the opportunity to become a General (had I pursued the military), and an IT businessman in North America. Why is that I see no (by no, I literally mean almost zero) Indian Muslims who are successful in the Indian military or in the North American IT industry.

The condition of the Indian Muslims, at the time of partition, resembled that of the Pakistani Muhajirs, since they are (were) from the same communities and literally cousins and siblings, in many cases. Now, the condition of the Indian Muslims resembles that of the East Pakistani Bengalis. While, during this same time, their Muhajir Pakistani cousins have gone on to become the most successful group in Pakistan (in comparison to their total population). This cannot be just simply blamed on the Indian Muslims, as this article attempts to do.

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Re #39
``For a start the UAE/Arabia should kick out all those Indians who work there (who are not Muslim) and send them back to India, cut off oil supplies to India too and that alone should do the trick``
Definitely one of your more brilliant suggestions and based on sound economic sense. Er...any takers for the extra oil that will be on the market - on cheaper prices no doubt. Wonderful the entire world will look forward to that..cheaper oil..transportation costs come down..cost of goods will be down..food will be cheaper...power generation much cheaper..less burden on the consumer..home electricity bill will be down..Now with all the savings wha will the common man do? Take a holiday maybe? Now that benefits the global tourism industry..increased demands for hotel accomodation..hey its boom time for the construction industry..and while they are building those new places to stay who is going to feed the hungry tourists? Hey happy days are here again for the catering sector...now did I miss out on the entertainment sector?

re: naqshabandi

...why did it get your goats when your taliban brothers were chained to the floor of military planes and shipped to guantanamo bay?....

HisExcellency:
``Who cares if a person changes his religion as long as he remains an Indian. Does being a Muslim/Christian make you less of an Indian? ``
In theory it should make no difference. In reality also, it makes no difference if the conversion is to Christianity; but it does if the conversion is to Islam. I can think of at least four reasons:

1. Regardless of the merit of the case, is there any non-muslim Kashmiri who wants to separate from India?
2.Both Iqbal and Jinnah were relatively recent converts to Islam;
3. Conversion to Islam means cultural genocide, as happened to pre-islamic culture in Pakistan
4. As soon as Muslims become a majority, the minority can live only as a second class citizen and will steadily start to dwindle. This has already happened in Pakistan and is now happening in Bangladesh. It`s not that there are no tolerant Muslims in these countries, but the inexorable appeal of political Islam is irresistable to Muslims, unless checked by force, like in Turkey.
BTW is there any Muslim country where the population of minorities has gone up in percentage terms?

[...Why does it get the goat of the Hindus when other Hindus by their own will convert to Islam or Christianity...]

maybe because...

(death is better than that of course)

lol.

ooooh..these rabid hindu extremists seem to be on a roll here on Chowk! Seriously, I fear for the Muslims of India in the future (the only exception will be the tiny minority who happen to be rich and irreligious-you know the sort whose kids go to Dera Doon etc.) --they will face increased prejudice and violence from BJP-fied Hindu India and more cases of genocide as happened in Gujarat.

In fact the next war between India and Pakistan could well be over this factor...give it 10-20 years or so...

The only safeguard these Muslims will have will be for more Islamic governments in the Muslim countries who can put economic and other pressure (militarily) on India to protect the Muslims**. Otherwise what happened to the Muslims of Bosnia WILL happen to our brothers and sisters in India. Those who convert to hinduism will be spared (but death is better than that of course) --just like in the Spanish Inquisition. Mark my words. Secular minded Indians are becoming less and less important. Hindutva rules in India and is getting stronger as the middle class becomes increasingly hinduised.

May Allah and His Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam protect the Muslims of India. Amin.

ps Why does it get the goat of the Hindus when other Hindus by their own will convert to Islam or Christianity?

** When ``Islamist`` (I hate that word) governments are in place in Arabia and the Middle East and Pakistan --only a matter of time--they will be able to put pressure on India then both economic and military to treat its Muslims well. For a start the UAE/Arabia should kick out all those Indians who work there (who are not Muslim) and send them back to India, cut off oil supplies to India too and that alone should do the trick. If that doesn`t work then I am sure many more MUhammad ibn Qasim`s will be born...(btw all this will only ever happen under ``Islamist`` governments not the current bunch of pathetic losers who rule every Muslim country.) So the brothers in al Hind should not be disheartened.

Nasrun min Allahi wa fath.un qareeb --Help is from Allah and victory is near.

dost-mittar,

[...There is only a small difference in the birth rates of Muslims and Non-Muslims...]

[...I had acknowledged the differences between Hindu and Muslim birth rates...]

if you consider a consistent 10% difference over a period of 40 years as `small`, then i suppose you are right in claiming that you had `acknowledged` the difference. as for migration...even if you assume 10 million bangladeshis to have migrated who are now counted as indian muslims, and discount them, it would still make no difference to the overall numbers.

Re : Article
“At the outset, I want to make it clear, without appearing to be on the defensive or apologetic, that I am neither a Hindu zealot nor a Muslim baiter”

I think you are just that …..

Faruk

I can understand why Pakistani Mullahs would raise hell over the issue of conversions. After all, Pakistan ideology is based on religion.

I can`t understand why Indians are echoing the same paranoia about conversions. Who cares if a person changes his religion as long as he remains an Indian. Does being a Muslim/Christian make you less of an Indian?

Today Muslims comprise 16-17% of Indian population. Perhaps 40 years from now, their population will reach 30-35%. As their numbers increase, so will their cultural influence. As a result, Indian culture will also undergo gradual changes. This is ofcourse a good thing because ultimately no culture stays the same. Change is essential for the survival and growth of every society. The Hegelian conflict between an existing idea (thesis) and its contradiction (antithesis) creates an entirely new idea (the synthesis) devoid of contradictions. This cyclical process is essential for the historical progress of societies.

Iqbal expressed this in his famous verses:

Jahan-e-Taaza Ki Afkar-e-Taaza se hai namood
Ke Sang-e-Khisht se hotay nahin Jahaan paida

``A new world owes its existence to new ideas
Stones and rocks (i.e. old ideas) don`t create new worlds``

And the prize goes to #34 plats8! absolutely and totally correct !!!!

So what do we learn from the fact that a ``pure`` hindu nation such as Nepal has the WORST development stats in all of South Asia? And that Bihar which is predominantly hindu (85%+) has the worst economic and educational stats in India.

That maybe under-development and under-education is still the biggest problem in South Asia? That we should not pretend that one community has the monopoly of all the problems in India.

concerned1:
Thank you for posting those stats. from the censuses. It is always good to have a debate based on facts.
Changes in the religious composition of the population could be due to three factors:
1- Conversion
2- Migration
3- Birth rate

Conversion, in my opinion, is not a significatn factor. Given the hot button nature of conversion, any mass conversion hits the media pretty quickly and we haven`t read too many instances of this.
Migration may be a significant factor, especially since the creation of Bangladesh, porous borders with Bangladesh and better economic prospects in India.
I had acknowledged the differences between Hindu and Muslim birth rates, but attributed them to the low level of literacy rates among Muslims, esp. women. Not only is there a large gap between the literacy rates among Hindu and Muslim females, the Muslim literacy rate is actually lower than the stated figures because, as per the definition of Indian literacy, anyone merely able to read-write in Arabic script, which is what many women would have learnt, is considered to be a literate.
Let me tell you how literacy affects not only population but also health. Last January, India mounted a huge campaign to eradicate polio. A rumour spread among Muslims that the govt. was giving polio drops to Muslims to reduce their birth rates; I heard some Muslim women urging boycot of the campaign as it would render ``our boys`` impotent.
But the Hindu apprehensions in this matter are somewhat comprehensible. Demographic changes are somewhat like glaciers - slow moving but deep in their effect. So, I would advocate a sterner population control measures in India to reduce both the growth and disparities in the growth rates of population. I believe that the govt. has already taken some measures to deprive people with large families of certain privileges; more could be done as has been done in China.

pmishra2,

I`ll bite - I assume you are referring to Nepal and Bihar.

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I don`t agree with your assessment of Farzana Versey.

...for every farzana versey in india there is an mj akbar, abdul kalam, or azim premji...so let`s not generalize about indian muslims this and indian muslims that....

maybe not...

#24 Mantolives

Like our Garg Sahib, you too are tilting at imaginary demons. Let me suggest that you take the time to actually read my post. While it must be emotionally satisfying to label people as this-or-that, it is better to actually respond to what is being stated.

I will not answer my own questions yet: I think they serve as a kind of ``test`` for people`s prejudices and imaginings. The answers, which are well known, may surprise many people.

Maybe I jumped the gun with P-Mishra`s latest post. Maybe he was saying something else. In that case I apologize profusely.

In case he was defending muslims and suggesting some other country as backward, it is a very surprising departure from his well known position as enunciated on Saima Shah`s board...

-Manto

re: PK Garg

You should compare notes with Tahir Mirza. Tahir Mirza seems confused and you seem ill informed. However the two of you share a very skewed vision, which believes in the myopia of your own insecurities.

Ciao

Subroto,

“…Btw please take a good look at the growth rate for communities as given in the sarkari census and not in the khakhi chaddiwallahs handbook. As per 1971 survey Hindus constituted 82.7% and Muslims 11.2% of the population. The corresponding figures for 1991 census are Hindus 82.6% and Muslims 11.4%, so much for the randy muslim myth…”


dost_mittar,

“…This is gross exaggeration. There is only a small difference in the birth rates of Muslims and Non-Muslims…”

The real data –

http://www.censusindia.net/results/eci15_page5.html

According to table 8, between 1981 to 1991, hindus have grown 22.78% while muslims have grown 32.76%
The muslim growth rate is 10% higher than hindus. This excludes J & K.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/1299/h033.html

Historically Muslim group consistently showed higher population growth than many other religious groups. For example, during the last several decades the proportion of Muslims in India`s population has been steadily increasing while that of Hindus steadily failing. In the undivided India, the Muslim share increased from 20 percent in 1881 to 24 percent in 1941 while that of Hindus declined from 75 percent to about 70 percent (Table 1). In the post-Independence period, 1951 to 1991, the proportion of Muslim population increased from a little less than 10 percent to 12 percent and the proportion of Hindus declined from 85 percent to to 82 percent (Table 2). The growth rate has also been higher for Muslims than for Hindus. For example, the percentage increase during 1951-61, 1961-71, 1971-81 and 1981-91 was 33, 31, 31 and 33 respectively for Muslims and 21, 24, 24 and 23 respectively for Hindus (Table 3).

table 3:
Percentage Growth rate
1971-81 Muslims (30.58) Hindus (24.15)
1981-91 Muslims(32.76) Hindus (22.78)

hindu growth rate has decreased, muslims growth rate has increased thereby widening the gap between hindus and muslims (from 6% to 10%)

Percentage population:
1951 Hindus (84.99) Muslims (9.93)
1991 Hindus (82) Muslims(12.12)

in a period of 40 years, the gap between hindus and muslims has narrowed down by 6%

saxena...#15
not that it`s any of your bloody business...but i said i wouldn`t be on as often as i usually am...and eventually i`d be gone. you think i`m cheap...your cheap potshots are all over the blasted place.
think about that one. . .when your brain`s fully functioning.

apologies for diverting from the topic at hand.

There goes p-mishra with his myopic anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim views again... Please do inform us as to what the answers to those questions again?

Also... I am the first to admit that Pakistan is far from perfect... infact I have enumerated my own problems with the country, but such generalizations as this guy makes are hardly based on the truth. The question about `backwardness` obviously requires a definition of backwardness... by many definitions Pakistan wouldn`t seem like that much of a backward country.

People like P-mishra will never let us have peace. I am convinced that the only way to neutralize P-Mishra and other hate mongers is to have more people to people contact, and that means more Indians travelling into Pakistan and seeing Pakistan for themselves...

-Manto

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dost mittar #16 Good response to the article. One minor quibble: Let`s not call individuals who promote divisions within Indian society in the name of islam, or the muslim ummah, as ``good muslims`` even jokingly. Good muslims in India are those vast majority of Indian muslims who peacefully go about their business in India. Since good muslims are expected to live in peace with the broader community.

Garg sahib,

It is a good thing we are not considering you a sample of an ``average hindu``. Otherwise, we would conclude that the average hindu is a narrow minded, sectarian person with an active fantasy life.

You say:

[quote]
An average Muslim identifies himself with Pakistan. Most, particularly those well off, not only maintain but also propagate extra territorial family and marital affiliations as if there are not enough co-religionists in India
[end-quote]

Really? Well, all the dozens of indian muslims I know must be above average !!! This kind of silly commentary which is fact-free and prejudice-filled does nothing to address the real communal problems in India.

Now, let me ask you a few questions:

(1) What is the most backward nation in South Asia? And what is its dominant religion?
(2) What is the most backward region in India? And what is the dominant religion?

Communalism as practiced by some muslims, hindus, christians and sikhs is one of the major problems in India. Each community also has some distinctive problems: it is reasonable to argue that indian muslims as a group tend to acquire less practical skills and education, and that the madrassah curriculum does not help. But reducing everything to blaming one community or to one issue may be convenient but not accurate.

hey rsridhar post #7 was genuinly great -- MAJORITY MUST ALLAY THE ``FEARS`` (real or imagined) of the minority.

That will happen only to a majority that has the confidence and the magnnanimity of its numbers -- and it does not ``ACT`` like an INSECURE minority -- itself.

A majority of 82% against a minority of 12% does NOT need ``muscular Hinduism`` - a favorite phrase of my dear friend -- dost-mitter ji`` --

with 82% of everything is plenty of muscle -- really how muscular do you want to be --

too much muscle may lead to an opposite condition called Pseudo Hypertrophic Muscular Dystrophy -- a body builder calf from the outside with the strength of a toothpick inside:-)

You write:
The solution to Ayodhya issue is simple. Muslims and hindus should accept the verdict of the court, whatever that may be. That is how it should be in a democratic law abiding country.`` Amen to that. then U write:

``Will that happen? I doubt it. Muslim leadership will cry foul if court turns its verdict against them. They will find some reason to.`` (rsridhar)

now there you are talking like that Gurlgly Garg Guy -- with his pravari saffron tinged slip showing with a sentence like --``an average Muslim identifies himself with Pakistan`` --

(an average or an above average Muslim -- does NOT identify himslef or herself with Pakistan only with relatives in Pakistan) --

an `average` Indian Muslim is a pluaristic multicultural multiethnic secularism-baked Muslim Indian -- is different from Islamic Psuedomonoesthic male chauvinistic unicultural Pakistani Muslim (here again the cursed generalization). --

and most of them are really UPSET at Pakistan -- for constantly messing up things for them -- and would like the Pakistanis to shut their Islamic Mouth up and take their Jihadi business somewhere else -- educate and take care of their OWN part of Kashmir -- and leave the Valley alone.

regarding Babri masjid -- sridhar U write `` Muslims and Hindus should accept the verdict of the court, whatever that may be. Will that happen? I doubt it. Muslim leadership will cry foul if court turns its verdict against them. They will find some reason to.``

now that rather prematurely assumes -- the courts of `` a democratice law abiding country`` like India -- will award the site to the Manderite Hindus --

but let me ask you -- what if the decision goes aganst building the Mandir -- will the Hindu parivar leadership ``cry foul`` if the site is awarded to the Muslims.....

``They will find some reason to`` -- too:-)

Nazar,

Have you read any of Ayesha Jalal`s books?

-Manto

Dost Mittar ...

Perhaps the reason for that is that logically the Two Nation Theory could have only existed in an all India context.... The partition of India took place really on the basis of the two state solution. It was hardly according to the two nation theory, which was aptly retired by Jinnah seeing the contradiction of leaving 20 million Muslims behind.

Pakistanis are confused about their history. They point towards Gujurat to justify Pakistan`s existence, when Gujurat can only disproves the rationale of Pakistan which was put as a constitutional solution to the complex communal problem.

It is only natural the educated amongst are doing what should have been a closed issue with that famous speech of 11th August... archiving the Two Nation Theory in the files of History.

-Manto

nazar saheb:
Good observation. Pakistanis are giving up on the two nation theory just as Indians are beginning to embrace it.
PS: I notice that you consistently spell hindus as ``hindues``. Is there a reason behind this particular spelling?

Mr. Garg:
Thanks for cogently putting together the hindutva case agaisnt Muslim Indians. It gives us the opportunity to debunk most, if not all, of the myths surrounding this issue.
``There have been other minority communities in India over the centuries with whom there have been no major problems.``

True to a larger extent. But the reason is that the other communities did not come to India as conquerors and had no need to seek acceptance from the natives. It is the hindus whose psyche still suffers from the historical humiliations/defeats inflicted upon them by the Muslims. Christians came as rulers too but unlike some other christians, the British did not believe in mixing religion with politics, hence the difference.

``An average Muslim identifies himself with Pakistan. Most, particularly those well off, not only maintain but also propagate extra territorial family and marital affiliations as if there are not enough co-religionists in India.``

As others have said, this is baseless. Rumours/anecdotes are no substitutes for facts. But if
enough Indians keep saying this, it will prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I bet that more Muslims feel alienated from India today (not necessarily identitying with Pakistan) than they did before Gujarat and Babri Masjid demolition. As for marriages, very few marriages are taking place now between Indians and Pakistanis. Just for your information, Hindus in Sindh also sought marriage partners in India in the first few decades after the Partition.

``And why the unprepared-ness to evolve a common civil code/ law for all citizens, which should be the law of the land – why should they alone feel it is only to target them?``

Muslims did not oppose UCC in the 1950s. It is your ``visionary`` leader of that period who decided to retain the British-era Muslim law. Now the UCC has become an icon, albeit a false one, of the fight for or against a distinct Muslim identity.

``And which other community runs exclusive, inward looking schools which parallel Madrasas run by Muslims, in preference to joining the mainstream Government or other private institutions? ``

Once again, the ``credit`` goes to your visionary leaders of the post independence era. Muslims simply accepted what was given to them. But I agree that this is one area where the govt. should impose a common syllabus and insist upon monitoring the religious teachings in these madrassas to ensure that they are teaching a tolerant version of Islam in the schools, even at the cost of appearing to be interfering in religious matters. In particular, the political aspects of the teachings of Islam should be curbed if not totally forbidden to the extent that they go against India`s secular constitution.

`` they have increased the percentage of their population from somewhere around 8 or 9 % at the time of independence to around 12 or 13 % now.``

This is gross exaggeration. There is only a small difference in the birth rates of Muslims and Non-Muslims and that is mostly due to the lower literacy level