Just Another BLOW-UP?

Ref temporal #150

I didn`t have time to go back through 147 posts because:

a) I am using an Internet cafe where 64KB is shared by 10 persons
b) the local server caches and serves the pages at about the same speed at which pages get downloaded from the web which doubles the time required to go back and read the stuff.

Reading the 147 replies over a period of several days, I didn`t necessarily recall every single reply in detail but none stuck out in my mind as demanding punishment.

As you point out, you did.

My apologies for inadvertently including you in the crowd. You do stand out from it.

Ref Subroto #165

[Sometimes we keep our outrage to ourselves and sometimes it slips out and sometimes it even gets posted while it ``includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene.``]

As I said before, you are urbame, suave, debonair and civil when talking to/about Islamist thugs but your outrage slips out against me for talking about condign punishment for their crimes.

[I feel no need to demand that Indian muslims prove their loyalty each time a terrorist act occurs.]

I don`t either. Chowk has made it easy for you; just click under my name and then read all my replies. Then tell me where I have ever said that Indian Muslims need to prove their loyalty.

In fact, I said:

[#156 by harimau on September 2, 2003 9:40pm PT
Ref Wonder Woman #152

I really don`t care for protestations, pious or otherwise, from Muslim leaders as to the Koran`s prohibitions against the slaughter of innocents or condemnation of the bombers. I don`t need it; they do it because 95% of the Indian population can be inflamed by mere speeches. ]

Try reading it again and see if it means that I demanded that Muslims must prove their loyalty.

[Obviously I forgot to ask these questions to the muslim Major whose back ached more in winter because of the shrapnel left behind in the spine (couldn`t be removed as danger of severing the spinal chord was too great).]

I am happy to know you even KNOW a Muslim. Most Indians on this board who preach ``let-us-kiss-and-make-up`` wouldn`t know a Muslim if they ran into one. The same thing goes for Pakistanis with regard to Indians.

[And I am so sorry I forgot you are the only person in India who gets outraged by terrorist attacks and will single handedly fight to bring them to justice.]

It is just that I seem to be the ONLY Indian to shout out loud that ``enough is enough``. Those of you who are not outraged by random acts of violence can always move to Karachi and attend Friday services at a Shia mosque or Imambara.

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Sometimes we keep our outrage to ourselves and sometimes it slips out and sometimes it even gets posted while it ``includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene.`` I feel no need to demand that Indian muslims prove their loyalty each time a terrorist act occurs. Obviously I forgot to ask these questions to the muslim Major whose back ached more in winter because of the shrapnel left behind in the spine (couldn`t be removed as danger of severing the spinal chord was too great).
And I am so sorry I forgot you are the only person in India who gets outraged by terrorist attacks and will single handedly fight to bring them to justice.

the silence is deafening and speaks volume

(re: # 150 and 151)

:)

Ref subroto #158

[RE # 148 Harimau ``Now this. Does Farzana ask for punishment of the guilty? No. Does temporal, Urstruly, Stuka, Subroto, anuradha, nb,, godot, etc. ask for punishment for the guilty? NO! Let me be emphatic: NO FRIKKING WAY! ``

What the?

Now where have I NOT condemned terrorist act perpetuated on our country.]

Oh, I just went back and read your posts #43, #45, #98 and #138. Here they are in their entirety.

[#138 by Subroto on August 31, 2003 11:40pm PT
What the ``F`` does it matter who destroyed whose temples 1000 years ago? Learn and understand from the bigotry of past to create a more tolerant, understanding nation. Both the communities need to stop living in their ``glorious`` past and concentrate on the future.


#98 by Subroto on August 28, 2003 5:21pm PT
Re Romair # 88 ``What is the word for, ``introspection`` in Hindi? Or is there such a word in Hindi, to begin with?``

Introspection : Antardrishti

not to be confused with Antaradrashti (Sight into Self)

Glad to be of assistance sirjee.

#45 by Subroto on August 26, 2003 7:13pm PT
Re 42 ``i can`t believe that the dhoti-clad advani actually is demanding that pakistan hand over a list of 20 `terrorists` wanted in india ``
You prefer he wear a shalwar kameeze when he makes these demands? Please e-mail any sartorial requests to r.k.advani@homeminister.gov.in

#43 by Subroto on August 26, 2003 6:35pm PT
RE # 36 ``Now the monkey jumps up and down and screams its head off but he is greedy``
Another reason for the screams is because the neighbouring monkey is trying to set its tail on fire so that it can grab the jar instead...oh what nuts these monkeys be.. ]

How debonair, how suave, how civil!

So, where was your outrage? Where was your demand that the criminals be punished?

However, as soon as you are caught with the proverbial Emperor`s new robes, you seem to lose your civility and come down to

``so dear bhench@d don`t fuc*ing tell me about pious protestations and other crap. ``

Which of course passes muster with the Chowk`s Board of Censors.

Now watch this: Chowk editors will not post this because it ``includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene.``

Ref Wholly-Precious-You #154

[...although temporalsaab and farazana have answered for their part, i hope you`re not suggesting the above mentioned ppl actually CONDONED what happened...]

Miss Poison Pen wrote [I hate my mind. I knew Monday would happen. Something would happen. It was an eerie feeling the moment I saw the tin box with its padlock being carried into a safe haven to be opened on Monday. It carried over 500 pages of ‘evidence’ collected over a period of five months to ascertain whether the ground beneath the Babri Masjid had housed a temple. The verdict has been changed from what it was mid-way through. They dug deeper, far too deep. They have discovered items that belong to periods between the 10th and 15th centuries. .....

But there was nothing of this kind after the Gujarat riots. Therefore, is it ‘preparing for elections’ time? Is this an answer to the no-confidence motion passed in Parliament? Is it some silly peeve against the proposed visit of The Israeli prime minister? Is it a dead man’s urn? Or is it the Archeological Survey of India’s report? It is difficult to define a backlash – sometimes it is an impulsive act, sometimes a well-planned move, sometimes political expediency.

The moment I saw that shiny steel box, I knew it spelled trouble. I had no idea of what it contained, but my gut feeling was that it would not be a fair report. Because the prime minister of India had declared at the funeral of Ramchandra Paramhans that his wish to have a temple built at Ayodhya would be fulfilled even as he spoke about going by the court verdict. Because the Shankaracharya of Kanchi changed his tune. Because, as I have begun to believe, Ayodhya is now Kashmir. We need it to fight the enemies, Pakistan and what an increasing number of Indians have come to believe Indian Muslims to be – closet Pakistanis, or at least made-for-Pakistan. ]

Miss Poison Pen actually wrote that this might be payback for the no-confidence motion in the Parliament. Pray tell us who would want to get back, anybody other than the BJP, and why? ``Preparing for elections``. It certainly is not the All0India Muslim League that prepares for elections this way. Miss Poison Pen is already saying that the BJP or the VHP or Bajrang Dal or amy number of ``suspect`` organizations might have set off the explosions. Let Miss Poison Pen explain what she meant by this statement.



``Because I call for collective punishment (for the most likely locations where the bombers had found shelter) I am considered a raving lunatic. Is this 1984 (the novel) or what?``


[...collective punishment?...here`s what you wrote:...

{The time has come to ring Mahim with tanks and impose a 60-day 34-hours-a-day curfew. Nobody gets out or into this area no matter what the emergency is. Cut off water and electricity to the area. Let the frikking idiots in skullcaps with RDX in their hands stew for 60 days -- one for each person killed in the explosions -- in their own urine and excrement}

...the last time i checked, india was a secular democracy...not a dictorial junta/commie ruled state like burma or n.korea where you can stew/electrocute/chop whomever you please...and hell, if i was one of those ppl made to ``stew`` in my own urine and excrement just because of my religion, you can bet your last $ i`d be resentful...and that`s putting it lightly...can you say i-raq?...]

Again, the question is: did the perpetrators have a safe haven inside Bombay? Should we ensure such safe havens will never be made available to terrorists?

[``That is what these bombings will destroy slowly over a period of time. That is what Farzana will assist in destroying with her poison pen.``

...if these people-to-people relationships are strong enough, no bombings/posion pens can dampen them...on the contrary, ppl will band together...fight back...call it idealistic cr@p if you like, but the scenes and stories heard after the bombings prove this...in the end unkal harimau, we`re all human beings...agreed, some of us less than others...but tit for tat, an eye for an eye will only lead to a vicious circle..which`ll keep on going till the lights go out...]

Would you prefer that I had suggested random shootings of 60-odd Muslims in Bombay to equal the death toll in the explosions? Wouldn`t that put the same terror into the hearts of Muslims that every citizen of Bombay must feel after repeated bomb explosions? By the way, that seems to be the preferred modus operandi in Pakistan.

Ref Mullah32 #160

Yo, Mullah, what is your problem with me?

Didn`t you say in your post #13 [In the Washington Post someone wrote last Sunday that one bomb is an outrage; two is a campaign. He was talking about the bombing in Baghdad and in Jordan the week before. To this we may add that three bombs is war: The third bombing being the bomb blasts in Bombay today, since this bombing carries the same imprints as the previous bombs - a professional job designed to impact on policy]?

So, if this is a war, what is wrong with taking war-like measures?

Before you start spouting off your civil-rights concerns -- none of which come to the fore when there are mass killings of Shias in Pakistan -- I just want to remind you that even in Canada, when the Quebec separatists kidnapped somebody, the Federal government assumed war powers, cordoned off the entire city of Quebec and conducted house-to-house searches. I am not saying anything different about Mahim or Bycullah.

[Subroto #158 I just saw this post of yours. I could always tell from your posts on chowk that you had real class in you.]

Let me translate that into plain English for the general public. You are saying, ``Subroto, I know that I can depend on you to kiss Islamic Butt at the right time when we need it most.``

Subroto #158 I just saw this post of yours. I could always tell from your posts on chowk that you had real class in you. Hats off to your Dad for saving the life of the sikh driver, and for his courage in 1965.
My late father and two uncles (one now passed away, who also lost a leg at the tank battle near Chawinda) fought on the opposing (i.e. Pakistani) side, and I somehow feel good knowing that they had people like your father - honorable men like they were - on the other side.

PS: I enjoyed your telling off harimau as well, incidentally. The guy is enough of a jerk to deserve being told off.

Just a bit off-track (like many other things going on here):
I had posted the following thread on Unplugged, `Hijaab Houris`...and it is not the bearded mullahs who are there supporting it...just in case you want to see our cho-chweet types in real action (forget the posts after 38, which are sheer examples of putridity):

http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00002959

Ref Wonder Woman #152

Have I EVER accused Indian Muslims of rooting for Pakistan in cricket matches? Have I EVER questioned the patriotism of India`s Muslims?

Why this nonsense about ``As one living in a family of practising Muslims, I cannot count six persons who cheer when Pakistan wins``?

By the way, didn`t the audience in Chennai give a standing ovation to the visiting Pakistan cricket team some years back for their magnificent playing against India?

RE # 148 Harimau ``Now this. Does Farzana ask for punishment of the guilty? No. Does temporal, Urstruly, Stuka, Subroto, anuradha, nb,, godot, etc. ask for punishment for the guilty? NO! Let me be emphatic: NO FRIKKING WAY! ``

What the?

Now where have I NOT condemned terrorist act perpetuated on our country. Who died and made you God? That it is your fricking right to rage against militancy. Abe do you frickking know the effect it really has on people and don`t give me any tales on how your driver`s uncle`s cousin`s neice`s mother-in`laws`s aunt`s fifth cousin died in some blast. I know the pain when **** was blown up in a land mine on his first posting to Kashmir, and how hir father himself a bar MVc - (know what that means? It means he got a Mahavir Chakra twice and a fricking plastic hip for his pains) - told his mother not to see his body as he wanted to ger to remember him as she last saw him. And his 3 yr old who had no idea his father had died or his 1 yrs old innocent all that went around him. Punishment for the guilty my foot. Every Indian has the right to be disgruntled with his/her country its only when they start placing bombs or aiding and abbeting terrorist acts that they need to to be punished. The criminals who burnt the train carriages in Godhra need to be shot but so do the basta@ds who murdered with impunity in Gujrat. My father who won a gallantry award in the 65 war (I never show off about this publicly but today I`ll make a exception) risked his life to save his Sikh driver in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination - he got a sore back for his pains but I can tell you it made his children proud...so dear bhench@d don`t fuc*ing tell me about pious protestations and other crap.

Ref rsridhar #153

[Like Farooq Shaikh, most Indians are missing the essential point here. It is clear that the perpetrators of the bomb blast felt victimised by the happenings in Gujarat. They felt angry towards a society that let this happen. They felt that the all this secular talk failed at the crucial juncture when the very institutions meant to protect the minorities failed to do so.
Their anger is justified. What is not justified is the manner in which they went about showing their anger.]

So, is it your contention that secularism was in fine form when the train was burnt at Godhra but failed only when there were retaliatory riots by Hindus?

Did our Fearless Journalist ever explain how, if the train was locked from outside, the Muslim Tea Vendor`s Daughter escaped? I asked the Fearless Journalist to travel up to Godhra and find out at least the name of the girl but she didn`t. Why should she? After all, a convenient myth is useful to beat the Hindus with.

Didn`t I post at the time of the riots that the proportion of Hindus displaced by the riots were in excess of their percentage of population and that this showed that the Muslims gave back as good as they got? Did the Fearless Journalist have an answer to that?

Is secularism in fine form only if India lets in unqualified people into government jobs because they happen to be Muslims or Todas or Nagas or Santals? Would you want your nuclear button in the hand of a UP Bhaiyya because after all he needs a job too?

Ref Wonder Woman #152

I really don`t care for protestations, pious or otherwise, from Muslim leaders as to the Koran`s prohibitions against the slaughter of innocents or condemnation of the bombers. I don`t need it; they do it because 95% of the Indian population can be inflamed by mere speeches.

On the other hand, there was no need for the AIMPLB (after all, it is supposed to concern itself with the Muslim Personal Law, not politico-legal wranglings on Babri Masjid) to come out and say that the Ayodhya issue is no longer one of factual discovery but of who can prove title to the land. Just because some Muslim charity or trust was either paying taxes on the land or got a firman exempting it from paying taxes doesn`t mean that they got the land legally. I shall quote from Babar`s own writings that he destroyed Hindu temples and put up mosques at their locations. Unfortunately for you, Babar actually maintained a diary. The only consolation for you is that his diary ends when he says he camped on the banks of the Saryu river. I know you have deficiencies in your geography education too so let me just tell you that Ayodhya is located on the banks of the Saryu river.

I notice you are strangely silent on Krishna Janma Bhumi, the Gyan Vapi mosque in Benares and quite a few other cases that can be raked up by the VHP. Because all those cases have not just an oral tradition as with the case of Ayodhya but irrefutable historical records.

re: the article posted by FB
Like Farooq Shaikh, most Indians are missing the essential point here. It is clear that the perpetrators of the bomb blast felt victimised by the happenings in Gujarat. They felt angry towards a society that let this happen. They felt that the all this secular talk failed at the crucial juncture when the very institutions meant to protect the minorities failed to do so.
Their anger is justified. What is not justified is the manner in which they went about showing their anger.
When the recruiters from ISI or Lashkar-e-Taiba or other such organisations from Pak go out to recruit muslims in India (for obvious reasons), they look for people who are educated and having religous fervour. They feed on the concept of ummah, sympathising with their cause and promising them all help and money. For a good measure, they even quote the scriptures from the Holy Qoran where it says their jehad is justified. Thus, highly motivated educated muslims (the very people who should be defending India`s institutions) fall prey to their propaganda. Thus, their anger (which was initially justified) now gets transformed into a holy jehad with international ramifications.
Even if people were to convince me that none of this happens and that this was just a local anger and no ISI or any other organization from Pak are involved, they would have to still explain why this violent means? Have the muslims exhausted the peaceful means? Have they even tried it? And, why for God`s sake do they have to take help of extremists from across the border, the very people who have done them and their religion immense damage.
So, Farook Sheikh is wrong. Muslims in India have to vociferously protest against such atrocities and make their stand very clear.
Sridhar

...unkal harimou...

``I am not going to go through the 147 posts a second time for a thorough check but has a single person demanded that the culprits be punished to the utmost extent of the law? I don`t think so.

Was the demand made that those who set the train afire must be punished ever made? No!

…Does Farzana ask for punishment of the guilty? No. Does temporal, Urstruly, Stuka, Subroto, anuradha, nb,, godot, etc. ask for punishment for the guilty? NO! Let me be emphatic: NO FRIKKING WAY!``


...although temporalsaab and farazana have answered for their part, i hope you`re not suggesting the above mentioned ppl actually CONDONED what happened...sheesh...just to set the record straight, death is too good for these b@stards...hang them by their balls...i`m sure they (um, well, urstruly may be an exception here) feel the same way too...

``Because I call for collective punishment (for the most likely locations where the bombers had found shelter) I am considered a raving lunatic. Is this 1984 (the novel) or what?``


...collective punishment?...here`s what you wrote:...


{The time has come to ring Mahim with tanks and impose a 60-day 34-hours-a-day curfew. Nobody gets out or into this area no matter what the emergency is. Cut off water and electricity to the area. Let the frikking idiots in skullcaps with RDX in their hands stew for 60 days -- one for each person killed in the explosions -- in their own urine and excrement}

...the last time i checked, india was a secular democracy...not a dictorial junta/commie ruled state like burma or n.korea where you can stew/electrocute/chop whomever you please...and hell, if i was one of those ppl made to ``stew`` in my own urine and excrement just because of my religion, you can bet your last $ i`d be resentful...and that`s putting it lightly...can you say i-raq?...


``That is the true nature of people-to-people relationship in India, at least in the South. ``


...and that is one of the truly great things about india....


``That is what these bombings will destroy slowly over a period of time. That is what Farzana will assist in destroying with her poison pen.``


...if these people-to-people relationships are strong enough, no bombings/posion pens can dampen them...on the contrary, ppl will band together...fight back...call it idealistic cr@p if you like, but the scenes and stories heard after the bombings prove this...in the end unkal harimau, we`re all human beings...agreed, some of us less than others...but tit for tat, an eye for an eye will only lead to a vicious circle..which`ll keep on going till the lights go out...