The Beast and I

Jawahara:

Happy New Year. I thought you may like this poem...

The beats came up to me and licked my hand.
I was glad of the air, glad of the moss
And its luxurious softness, and at a loss
To know why I was accepted in that land
Of slow time and amiable beats. I had done
Nothing to find myself there. I had connived
With myself in the usual way, contrived
To cut losses, been glad when I won.
Surely this golden world was not for me.
It was too placid, too simple, too easy.
Any moment now the fabric would tear;
Someone would say I had no business there.
And I would get up and either fight or run
While the friendly beasts looked quietly on.

Suniti Namjoshi

godot: i have two words for u. `write back!` how goes it by the way?

Jawahara -

With “The Beast and I”, I believe you have unwittingly stumbled into an uncharted territory...it’s a world where the beast roams free, a world as alluring and seductive as it is intense and troubling...frightened, your heart beats fast as you try to run away from it...the irony is that the beast goes away only if you let it...illuminating the darkness notwithstanding...

I also believe that “The Beast and I” may have awoken that rare, atypical writer in you...I won’t miss any of your writings at Chowk from now on...can’t promise if I’ll be commenting on them...or not!...yes, I’m too unpredictable...that’s no relief to anyone...!!!

I’m delighted you’re staying :)

Wow! This became quite the heated InterAction. Interesting! It`s weird that the InterAct section of this story has been so much busier than any other stories that I have written on chowk. Of course, most of it had nothing to do with the story itself :-).

Temporal, it is always good to hear from you. Bina, Shandana, I think the topic(s) you were discussing deserve an article (or more) of their own. Maybe a debate type thing might be fun. Thanks! That was quite lively and interesting.

Godot, I am most definitely staying. I said I wasn`t sure if I would be published on here, not because of others` comments but my own inspiration and writing that comes and goes in fits and starts.

Ana, I hope you stay on chowk. Farzana, I await a response to my latest email.

Everyone else, thanks for reading this and commenting on it...good or bad.

Time for bed now *yawns*

Uff, Farzana...the moseebut with you is that if I’m critical I’m offensive, and if I’m commending I’m patronizing...a guy can’t win!...patronizing?...how about if told you it was the first time I realized what they mean when they say “eyes are the mirror of the soul,” and I wondered if those eyes could be so expressive in a picture how deep they must touch you in real life...flippant?...it wasn’t the first time I regretted not being a fiction writer myself, that not being able to externalize my innermost thoughts via that channel...perhaps “hai!” threw you off...it meant the mask.

I’m sure writing it was not as difficult for you, jaya, as submitting it to Chowk. However courageous, knowing the beast, that must have been a nerve-wrecking decision. I fear that your worst fears may have been realized by the interactions, this one perhaps making it even worse...but it couldn’t be not said. Take solace in that this whole thing will soon be archived and move to the oblivion, just as all others have. Thank you for an extradordinary piece...the one that will resonate for some time to come...certainly one of the very best I’ve read at Chowk. Stay for others’ sake. Beelzebub is out of your way...at Chowk.

Shandana,

Supporting the family is hardly a man`s domain, look at all the women here who are widows, divorcees or whose husbands are drug addicts/runaways/disabled and have to support their children. In our house we employ three widows each with nine children or more. No men in those domains at all.

So true though, corrpution, nepotism, car snatchings, bombings all know no gender. But rape is the only crime/trauma where your gender and sexuality comes into it... and is all-affected by it.

On the subject of losing yourself after rape: having just read Sebold`s ``Lucky`` my perceptions and ideas on rape are strongly influenced by her gritty detail of the rape and its aftermath and her success at bringing her assailant to justice. But she says that the line is inevitably crossed once rape happens. Not only do you lose yourself but you lose out on belonging in that community that is ``other``, not-raped. Losses all around. I suppose you find something else afterwards, but it`s a discovery no woman really wants to make.

Stillbirth is traumatic. I`ve had friends who went through it, it is a devastating loss that so often goes unknown and unacknowledged and unmourned, same goes for miscarriage. Again, all losses a man can`t relate to except by second degree (and nor can I, yet).

Cheers (needed after such discussion!)

i think a traumatic event would shape and colour a persons sensibilty regardless of gender, it might just manifest itself differently. as for danger and vulnerability, surely this is something all pakistani`s feel. there are more male drivers than women for example, and people have been killed during car snatching, bombs and terrorists also recognize no difference when it comes to dismembering bodies. you are right in that often in pakistan a womans body is a crime waiting to happen, but i think men have their own unique fears and pressures which sometimes seem trivial to us but are just as opressive for them. getting a good job, supporting the family is still pretty much a mans domain, and i think when you have to struggle constantly against things which are intrinsic here like corruption, nepotism, sycophancy it takes its toll as well. just thinking aloud...lately i have been feeling much more sympathy for the pakistani man as well. the ordinary pakistani man that is. it is interesting you should mention the meerwala case, you know of course that the whole thing started when her brother was sodomized by three men in the sugar cane fields. strange that most of us don`t remember abdul shakoor. also, why assume you lose who you are? why is the female identity so closely tied to her sexual experiences? again in the meerwala case, mukhtaran didn`t lose herself but rather found herself in that she discovered she had the courage to stand up for what she believed in (her right to justice) despite all the obstacles in her way. this wasn`t a new thing for her, this courage, it was just that the whole world acknoledged it afterwards.

as for what is the worst, as a recent mother i would say having a stillborn child after feeling him/her alive inside you for months would have to be up there. or losing that child...our fears tend to evolve with our experiences. but they always seem to be tied to loss.

Shandana,

It`s not that rape and assault don`t happen to men - they do. But I find that it shapes and colors a woman`s whole sensibility from a very early age. The fear that it could happen, the danger, the vulnerability you feel is something I don`t think men understand, or grow up with. You know how it is in our society - the feeling that you always have to be protected, guarded, safeguarded from the ultimate disaster. And the stigma should it happen - the fear of pregnancy from a rape - can men really relate to this?

I don`t think women will ever really be able to escape from that legacy. The recent newspaper accounts of gangrapes, what happened to Mukhtaar Mai, the women in Gujranwalla paraded naked through the streets - this to me is a woman`s domain more than a man`s. In our society the best way to get back at a man is to dishonor his women.

I await the day when a woman`s body isn`t a crime waiting to happen.

PS, I don`t know if rape is ``the worst``. I suppose being killed is the worst. I suppose being dismembered is also the worst. But rape embodies both those things because who you were before it is killed and hacked into pieces. Anyway. The worst is many different things to different people.

bina,

dont know if rape and assault are exclusively womans domain. men get raped and assaulted too. also, is being raped the absolute worst thing that can happen to a person? just wondering, i have two male friends who were molested when they were kids. they dont give themselves room to recover because they`d rather just supress it totally, whereas women often use pain as a springboard for rebirth.

shandana

hamidm,

ya know i didn`t like naipul when i read him earlier but these days i`m reading a bend in the river and its really really good, reminds me of pakistan, with the big man and the protagonists desire to keep his head in the sand.

long live grahan greene, i think his work is amazing. and grisham and koontz are very readable and a great way to extract maximum utility from munchie food.

shandana

zeeshan,

have you read margaret atwood? judith budnitz? nadine gordimer? zadie smith?

shandana

Zeeshan

Try Alice Sebold. Her work deals with rape and assault - the very worst aspects of being a woman - but in an unflinching voice and one without the manipulation that you dislike. I reviewed ``The Lovely Bones`` for the Dawn Books and Authors section this past Sunday and just finished her memoirs.

Dude, I didn`t even look at your ``favorite authors`` list until you mentioned it in your interact. I wasn`t surprised by what I found though. And really, I have no problem if you prefer male authors to female. I think the story is more important than the gender - always have.

But writing that deals with women and women`s issues is naturally going to be the more favored terrain of the female author. That`s not to say women can`t write great science fiction (Madeline L`Engle), mysteries (Agatha Christie), or historical fiction (nobody comes to mind, Margaret Mitchell can`t be historical fiction can she... LOL). But as they say you write what you know best and women know best what it`s like to be women. Bas... if you aren`t interested in that, no big deal, but I don`t see why you have to pull down women who are.

After all aren`t people interested in being represented? Why such a hullaballoo over Irish writing, South Asian writing, Muslim authors, Jewish writing. blah blah blah? Do we dismiss these writers because their writing is too specialized or manipulative or exlusive or specialist?

Oh dear, I have to run out, so I`ll post this and continue later....

Cheers

Hamid,

Mubarak to you and Steele loving Mrs. Hamid! Mr. S insists that he will trail me in the afterlife, such Chaucer reading woman lover he is (we actually had a conversation today where I threatened to ignore him in heaven if he didnt go to the doctor...that all the angels would back me up and turn around and stick their tongues at him)...my point is not only do women read that author of Mistral`s Daughter, but also Graham Greene (freshman year of college), Ibsen, Sophocles, Mukherjee, etc in addition to all other genres related to their various identities. The effect of this is the emergence of writers like Jhumpa Lahiri, whose prose is refined clarity.

But on more experimental level, gender will be transgressed and transformed, esp. in the hands of young women writers who will take on, de/reconstruct, subvert female and male identity-and this is going to be extremely significant.

saminasha,

.......... thank god that women think and write different - men can be awfully boring and tedious ......... to be honest, i find women to be a lot more interesting than men and they do bring the ``other`` perspective to life ........ so there is nothing wrong with gender specific writing since you guys do make up half of humantity - the better half, i might add ............. but you have to understand that readers tend to view things based on their own life experience and their warped world views .......... for example, i love ``a house for mr biswas``, and have read it twice because for whatever reason i can relate to it, and naipaul is one heck of a story teller - i feel as if i have been to trinidad and tormented by the tulsis ............. in my book he is awesome - others might disagree ............ take ``moth smoke`` by hamid mohsin - a pretty mediocre book by literary standards, i presume, but i couldn`t put it down because i felt i knew those people ( it was one heady experience!) ..............on the other hand you couldn`t make me read crap by james joyce, who, if he hadn`t existed, would have been invented by sadistic english teachers to torture adolescents ..............

......... to be honest i probably don`t know what i am talking about - i hate to admit it , but i have read every book by graham greene and grisham and koontz (and enjoyed it) ......... what else can you buy for under ten bucks and read from cover to cover on a four hour flight?.......... and mrs hamidm voraciously reads danielle steele and sappy stuff like ``a cup of comfort``, but i still love her - i wouldn`t trade her in for a woman who reads chaucer ............

Hamid Sahib,

I wouldnt bet the GNP of Argentina on gender specific writer so quickly. Lets see what happens now that girls are hooked up on the Internet and experimenting with identities...you might want to speak to your daughters about this...or read how young women in iran have been blogging online...

Ana dear,

For what am I being forgiven?

Zeeshan,

But remember bra, that when a ``female`` writer starts to use language like a ``male``, you get all confused and start accusing of us having penises. I feel your pain homeslice...

Jawahara (#58):
Thanks...am glad you have not taken what I said amiss...also glad that you are not biting more baits. Your silence at least is not deafening.

Regards,
F

hamidm2

...good writing (fiction specially) is a sum of a serious writer`s experience...gender is not a bar...(no pun;))...and not all writers (and readers) are created equally...an overwhelming majority of writers here do it for passion and fun...not recognising that is an error in judgment...and then dumping on their writing and not backing up (with or without being challenged) is a cop out...

...we go to bed or fantasize of going to bed with a person...whether s/he can spell rhododendorn...straight or backwards should never be a criteria...(as indeed one may argue comparing rushdie with naipaul...rusted nail with dead wood...;))...

...enjoy your long week end...

...t

saminasha...
you completely misunderstood me. oh well.....you`re forgiven, again. i don`t know where you got the picture of the double standard, but guess what. i really do have better things to do with my time than to defend myself.
this whole place rots and may you all live good and content lives.
ana

zeeshan ......

.......... i think you should give up while you still have a shred of dignity left ......... trust me, you can never win an argument with women - i should know, i live with three of them ......... so, go lick your wounds and go sulk in the corner and think of ways to win a pulitzer or something so that you can come back in a few years and rub their faces in it .......... inspite of the fact that you seem to be a terribly disturbed person i do feel your pain - it is horrible being taken to task by these horrid women ..........

........ but it is intriguing that we both reacted strongly to the the same lines in the story - it must be testosterone`s natural reaction to girly stuff ............ but i think it is rather unfair of you to expect men and women to write (or for that matter do anything) in the same way...... i am not much of a critic, but i bet that nine times out of ten i can tell when something is written by a man or a woman, and that is the way it should be ............ can you imagine going to bed with someone who writes like salman rushdie or naipaul !

#60

First things first.

I repeat myself? I`m not quite sure what you mean by that but does a doctor make new symptoms and cures for the same disease just because he`s diagnosed far too many patients with the same condition?

``Jesus I`m bored with Cancer. Fahk off you dying diseased bastards and get some new diseases!``

When I say that all women suffer from the same hysteria you may start frothing at the mouth. Awright?

“Misogynist, cocksucker, has no idea what he’s talking about…”

Know what, I’ll let you take those cheap shots because you probably think I deserve this. Just this once. I’m going to attempt being gracious and set my venom for your quick and incorrect assumptions aside for the post.

I am a misogynist based on…what exactly?

Listen carefully because I’m beginning to fear that I don’t even speak the same language here and/or was the only one who was taught comprehension in school.

By understanding gender, history and background of the author we may also understand the motives and paths of the author which are secret and locked away in the mystery of wordspinning, bioaltering, and second hand experience vesus first hand experience immolated into fiction suits to create lies that tell the truth. Prose doesn’t always need reconditeness and abstruse wordgames to be abstract and layered. It`s always smarter/far more appealing to probe deeper by making connections and creating patterns by looking at the writer`s own life at the time with the fiction he/she`s writing and what they’re reading. The fiction one writes is obviously part of the larger framework of the author’s thoughtmines. That’s what I find fascinating. Feel free to just ignore the sub and supertext of what you read.

I`d be quite offended by your post but I’ve lost all interest in calling you a c*nt, you calling me a c*cksucker, and you may be offensive in your post and knowing my short-tempered online persona you obviously expect me go out on a limb and call you names. Let’s see if we can reach a concession of ideas before either of us is led to share galian vocab.

Let’s see if it’s possible get through to you because it might be that I’m not trying hard enough and any attempt disappears in my timed textual abuse.

Now If I were you I`d assume whatever negative was possible about you. Perhaps even chalk it up a generation bias where the evolved ravage the world`s culture to sustain their intelligence and after a while they stop evolving because maturity means coming to a halt. Growing up means it`s over. So you will obviously be unable to understand why 14 year old`s love Britney or why 16 year old`s love that horrible nu-metal music. Like all generations, you want to be the final generation, you cannot and will not come to ideas as a newcomer because obviously you are nearly past your prime and it`s embarrassing to stand like the rest of us in line for paying the electricity bill like just another gal/guy. But that`s just extrapolation that I won`t believe in it just yet because I like to have more concrete evidence before I assume things. So that’s just thinking out loud. I might (obviously) be wrong.

If a man wrote that piece...it`d be very very interesting to see how he manages feminity because gender quite often does have its reek regardless of genitalia. I’m not special in assuming that writers who still have to go a long way, have trouble finding the unisexual voice which isn’t always necessary just a third option.
If you are arriving at the idea that female authors are inferior just by staring at my bio and finding they’re all d00ds, I will resist yet again to insult you because this level of tacky hypothesis insults my intelligence at least.

Just because I have no female writers influencing me does not mean I think they`re inferior I am far more interested plots than prose because anyone who publishes a novel knows a thing or two about prose. Sadly, they are no great sf women writers. They are no female Chuck Palahniuk`s, Alan Moore`s, Grant Morrison`s, Robert Anton Wilson`s, Daniel Clowes, Franz Kafka`s and so on. (Though Clowes writes women so well in Ghost World that I’d have believed he was a woman who managed to pull of the dialog between girls so well). I`m not interested in novels anyone could write. I`m interested in sui generis voices and ideas. My information is not perfectly rounded and I’m sure there are female authors out there who can be of significance interest to me by speaking of their world without falling clumsily into ancient feminist traps.

I’m actually always looking for a good female author who has things to say that interest me at this time. I’d be pleased if you can recommend me someone who indulges more in subtext and plot than clever word athletics.

As much as I’d like to point out I’m not talking out of my arse with my “fancy” comments I don’t really want to reread the story because some of the lines are just horrible in there and I have intention of fishing in that swamp a second time.

Sorry but that’s how I feel. She’s a big girl and can deal with it even if she thinks it’s a matter of intelligence or taste.

But is your issue with the “emptiness” of my disapproval or the “fanciness” of my comments?

Suggestions? Sure I should’ve remembered. Sorry.

No actual functioning mature adult writes lines like…

````How many have you taken? Which ones? Tell me. Please tell me.`` Ishan`s voice trails off, half pleading, all-sad, all frightened, tears seeping between the words like sheets of rain.``

You assume it is a mature story. That`s not a very mature thing to say.

Two…

Read the stories written by teenagers and young adults who are prone to emotional masturbation. Look at them and see if you can find something wrong with that and if you’re doing the same things. If you can’t, you can at least note that they’re very young and you’re an adult and you should have as fewer things common as possible. If their prose strengths are your prose strengths why should anyone read you because they’re younger and have are pregnant with far more potential than you are.

I dunno, maybe it’s me, I think it’s a bit embarrassing if a sixteen year old can produce the class of writing I am producing (poor as it may be) as a far more experienced cultured adult than they are. If we use the same clichés, extract ideas from the same background to similar precision, and are speaking of the same things, I think it’s time I grew up and shed the skin of my youth behind.

Please point how I accused her of emotional manipulation. Writing is manipulation. Perhaps the assumption you were looking for was ``cheap emotional manipulation.``
And I never suggested a thing like that either. And I never inferred it was inspired by bad erotica because that`s really not necessary and opens a whole new can of worms.

For the record the “tear my story when it comes up to shreds) comment means… “If you are offended by my criticism, you may give me a taste of my own medicine when my story comes up” as a passing comment. I admit it was a tactless attempt to sound unthreatening and perhaps friendly. My bad. I didn’t start out to be unfair and cruel with my “shukul” post as unbelievable as that may sound.

Though now in light of what information that I received yesterday, you being an editor here and raising a motion to ban me makes another Zeeshan Mahmud piece on chowk quite unlikely though I was told differently in email. Do what like, it’s not like I’ll be paid for my efforts. I’ll actually be putting up with a lot of lazy and ignorant posts if it goes up.

My criticism is poorly thought-out?

I’d support an opposing opinion right now but you’ve made too many booboos in your assumptions so far and I don’t see a point in re-reading the story to flesh out previous posts and simplify them and I really must be off.

Cheerio.

ZeeshanMahmud

p.s. Of course that stunt was immature, cruel and uncalled for. No question about that, my sense of humour is sick and childish, I’ll confess. But that is not really my stab at justifying something cruel like that with my own sickness of humour. “I am sick in the head, therefore I shall rape” does not make the rape meaningless. I’d apologise but I don’t see her apologising for boring me and insulting my intelligence by her echolalia soiled post which wasn’t even right in the first place. We’re pretty much even I think.

Hamid, don`t tell me you don`t already know - we b*tches are more dangerous when we`re in a pack.

Interesting account, both of depression-suicidal thoughts as well as the change this brings about in the relationship.

Like a visual medium I could feel the scenes fading in and out.

It would be interesting to read what the other partner in the relationship would feel - anyone has recommendations?

It was long, so I had to come back, reading this on a lazy sunday was easier. I think that`s one reason why most of the literature articles don`t get many replies, and the one on politics do - beacuse people don`t want to read-- they want to comment.

binoo

the silence is deafening

shandy

:)

Jawahara

you would be back!

subroto

i owe you one bud:)...(for the yadav comment)

zee

next time you dump, back it up with examples from the text...(yawn)... the generalities proffered are wearing thin...

..t

the undisputed proverbial gods and goddesses in action. amusing.

some of us might actually like birch switches...

Whatever makes it easier for you Samina.

/He actually likes ``nice`` ``normal`` girl writers./

Yeah too bad you`re hideous ennit?

RE IntactTesticles` posts...umm Chowkies there is this scroll button on the rodent that one can use to avoid reading the angry young bore (or is that boor?) - otherwise use the browser`s scroll bar.

whoa!......... i almost missed out on this cat and dog fight ......... all these women ganging up on poor zeeshan and bruising his male ego ...... it is terrible! ........ i knew this would happen one day - that`s why women should stay in the kitchen (bare foot and pregnant) and mind their own business instead of writing stuff and then arguing with us menfolk... right, zeeshan?......... i am with you, buddy - we men have to stand up to these pant wearing types who think that just because we allow them to drive they have the right to spout off to us ........... and ladies, back off before we invoke 4:34 and go looking for birch switches .............

p.s. i think jawahara is one heck of a writer but she should avoid writing stuff that upsets male sensibilities - we are not that sensible ............

Bina,

Yes, glad other people caught on to Zeeshan`s little subtexts....for all his hot air about being cutting age, he still is quite content in defending his patriarchical legacy-as long as he can write about female freaks and misfits...in the meantime, he`s been dissing female writers for not writing ``convincingly`` enough about being a freak or a misfit-because if htey did, he`d try to rake them over the coals. He actually likes ``nice`` ``normal`` girl writers.

So why the pretense?

Ana,

Sooo....its okay if Zeeshan can be ``honest`` about his feelings on other writers` work, but other writers cannot be ``honest`` about their feelings towards his work?

A double standard, dont you think?

I`ll tell you what offended me about Zeeshan`s ``criticisms``, which to me are not fueled by valid observations about the piece, but his own agenda - which I`ve seen him posting on various articles, and all his posts sound noxiously the same. It`s as if he has four or five core statements which he repeats whether the piece is a personal narrative, a fictional story, or whatever.

Anyway, he says:

I wish my ignorance was limited because I haven’t a clue about your gender.

It does reek of this “sentimental” feminity which is mostly a good thing for a female readership and last I checked my testicles were intact.

What the hell does Jawahara`s gender have to do with the merits of the piece? Next he`s going to say all women suffer from ``hysteria`` and should be on Freud`s couch. This is the kind of chauvinism and bias that women writers have had to contend with for centuries. As if women`s writing is inferior to men`s, in content, theme, and tone. If a man wrote this piece would he have so many objections to it? Plainly put, I think he is a misogynist and thinks writing by women is by default of poorer quality than men`s.

You know your way around a trope or two but in some places you just overdo.

That’s what I leave your story with. Overcooked with undernourished metaphors.

Sorry, but what exactly does this mean? Fancy phrases but no examples to back up his point and no suggestions of how to improve. This suggests that he doesn`t really know what he`s talking about, just wanted to say something impressive and not be accountable for it.

Fine, he thinks the narrator is lazy (``lazy cop-out``... ``seductive/seduction`` .. (more like a lazy one)...`` etc. etc.). He accuses her of being emotionally manipulative and influenced by bad erotica. These opinions, although harsh, are his right to assert. But to end his post with ``Stay tuned for the story I wrote a year ago but will be up here soon and you get even over there if you want vengeance.`` suggests to me that Mr. Mahmud takes this all personally... very personally. If he is here to compete and tear down others` writing to prove his own superiority, it`s a poor trick, very tiresome, much more than the old trick of setting an Interact board alight.

He can stay and continue to waste our time with his poorly-thought-out criticism, but posting links to the author`s photograph and calling her ugly is an immature stunt. We got rid of 12-Head for doing the same all across the boards. Looks like Mr. Mahmud is trying to take his place.

what you write is fair game, what you look like is not. jawahara didn`t put her pic up here, zeeshan obviously went looking for it, to me that crosses a line.

the end.

shandana

Farzana, I see your point and so, I do apologize if any of the people who liked my piece felt discounted by my interaction (for lack of a better word) with Zeeshan. Yes, I did take his bait and maybe shouldn`t have done so. Oh well!

I also do not think he should be banned from the board or be censored. He has his opinions and chooses to express them in the way he does. I can learn to skip past his comments and not respond to his obvious flame-baiting.

That`s all on this topic from me.

I will email you, Farzana.

Thanks everyone for your interactions on this story. If there is a next time from me, I promise not to let the interactions be hijacked.

So by being here, Zeeshan, whose ugly stick are you sucking?

Oh right.

All I made fun of was her looks because I was bored with her saying the same thing three times. Christ...there oughta be a law against boring people.

Bad prose and cliched metaphors are what they are. Calling it an accquired taste is just hiding from the real problem. I dunno, it`s easier to ignore anyone who`s louder. The volume does not change the content, it`s only our ears.

I said it before and it still makes sense. You cannot tell someone they`re minisnakeywakey is popping out their shorts and say it in a such a way that they`ll hug you and kiss your brow.

I`m not quite sure what is so difficult to comprehend about ``those who promote shit should be discouraged`` because that`s what it is. Sure crappier stuff will always have a larger audience. Crappier things with lesser intelligence will always always sell more whether it`s film or prose. But doesn`t mean the intelligent people should support crap. As I see it, chowk is not a place to think freely more than a place to suck each other`s ugly sticks. I refuse to lie or be nice when my intelligence is insulted by crap and craplovers who take themselves far too seriously. I`ve never understood why I should not expect the same level of quality from an adult who is pakistani who comes to the english language after his own native one rather than an American or an Englishman. Good work is good. It doesn`t mean if it`s a paper in Kala Shah Kaku or one in...hell...Glasgow. Crap is crap. Just because a Pakistani (or whoever) wrote it, he/she isn`t going to win brownie points from me because we were born under the same timezone.

Obviously me being the villain nobody will take anything I say seriously and they`d rather call Jawalalababakaka`s writing ``an accquired taste`` than a nest of cliches and several fart-like metaphors. I still stand by a few well written lines in there though, I`m not going to become two-faced just because Jawalalakakababama pissed me off, then proceeded to bore me.

Ah well...who cares.

God Bless You Mr. Godot.

Jawahara:

On a different note...you said you had put yourself out there knowing that some would like your piece and some would not. A creative effort is bound to be interpreted differently, and you well know that. Which is why you did not get into a discussion or sit to explain, as over-explanation can sometimes kill a piece. Fair enough. However, you have engaged in a non-literary argument with one interactor, and you say your reason for doing so is that he has not been too kind to your readers. I liked your piece, and what a third person has to say about my likes and dislikes does not bother me unduly. Besides, I think the readers can defend themselves (if such defence is needed at all) and by making an issue of it, the readers might in fact feel reduced. For, if there is anyone you should be talking to, it is us.

There are people here who need to prove their `difference` to draw attention. You need not have expended so much energy there. Had this been a political article or something on a contemporary social issue, then I can understand as the ramifications are entirely diffrent.

As regards the particualr personal attack, take it from someone who has been there and got it in ample measure, it is not worth noticing. If you are secure about your special readers and your creativity, then you should know that the writing on the wall is not what you assume to see. Really.

(I would like to get in touch with you. Could you email me at farzanavee@yahoo.com ?)

godot: Stop being flippant...it also ends up sounding patronising.

ummm....errrr....i know i`m supposed to be on vacation from chowk, but i think this whole argument has drawn out long enough.

can we all remember what this board is about...can we remember why writers put their stuff here out on chowk? it is for feedback on the work itself and not personal attacks against those who write, and those who happen to like what is written?

i don`t think zeeshan should be booted off this board, because he expresses an opinion. i don`t particularly care for the way he expresses it at times, but guess what folks. . .this has been going on long before zeeshan entered the picture. a particular piece not being one person`s cup of tea does not mean that personal attacks should be made against the person who wrote it...or the people who do like it. but again, some of us know bloody well that this has been going on for a long time.

zeeshan, it would have been good for you to just read what jawahara said in #19, and move on. . .she acknowledged that some of your criticisms may have been valid, no matter how you put them. i`m trying to recall a conversation you and i had about constructive criticism. you made your remarks in the beginning, and it was clear how you felt. i don`t quite understand why this needed to be dragged out.
and if you had actually come on my board and told me that you didn`t like what i wrote. . .i would have thanked you for you opinion and moved on. . .we all write differently about different subjects. no one says here that you have to love this piece, and obviously you don`t. i see your need to be honest (or arrogant, according to some), but no...you do not have to be cruel in order to critique. and if others like this piece, there`s no need to reduce us to sheep. i can assure you that some of us would not be putting those people down who happen to like your work, because everyone`s tastes are different. which is why `crap` gets to exist right next to great pieces of work in bookstores.

as for the rest of you. . you know you can choose to ignore his posts and move on, we `ve been down this road before, many times, with other interactors. but i think you need to think seriously about this urge to boot someone who expresses an honest opinion, even if he doesn`t express it in the most mature of ways. if zeeshan is a threat here, so are the rest of us. and if any of you don`t like what i`ve said, that`s fine. . .but please, when 85-90 % of a fiction board is all about personal attacks and defending each other rather than talking about the piece at hand, something is really wrong, and it`s really pathetic. this board was about `the beast and i`. . .nothing else.

thank you for reading, and please don`t bother responding to me. i`m back on hiatus from chowk, and will not interact any further.
regards
ana~

oops just to clarify...when I said post # 45 was cheap didn`t mean shandana`s, but zeeshan`s which seems to have made a comeback as # 51...

Fascists.

Now if what you were really saying was true, I`d post another ``defensive`` post here.



Whatever then now I`m bored and you can twist any meaning, satisfy any assumption out of anything. I am defending nothing. To a certain extent one has to give to a damn. You on the other hand, posted the same thing three times. Your second post being the same as the first one.



But after all...



When you look like this...



[SOME MATERIAL DELETED - InterActor Advised to refrain from personal attacks - Chowk Staff]


Heh heh G`night.

Jaya -

I, for one, think you are very pretty...also quite sensitive...but I see the beast has turned you into a very strong person...hai! how I wish I was also a fiction writer...!!!


Zeeshan -

Thanks for the pics, man! It helps tremendously to put a face to a name! Just for that, I vote for you to stay...!

I love applause.

Oh Zeeshan, how pathetically pedestrian of you. I am even less impressed with you than I was before which was something I didn`t think was possible. *yawn*


Since you didn`t seem to be getting what I was saying I had to repeat it...dumb it down, whatever.

#45

that was really cheap...

I second and third that.

i vote zeehsan mahmud be booted off chowk for getting too personal in his attacks.

shandana

...zeeshan, just take your pseudo-critic nonsense and shove it up your behind...

Why does it matter so much, Zeeshan, what anyone thinks? Why come back with all these disclaimers? It really does bother you that people might think these things about you? Tchh tchhh.

What is not puzzling is that you like or dislike someone`s writing or that you hold up Warren Ellis (and yourself) as some great examples of writing and creativity. Come on, don`t tell me that whole ``please read what someone else wrote in defence of my `why I have to write` essay was not a rather transparent attempt to dazzle me with your prose. Tricky! Tricky!

I wrote something and put it out there, knowing that some people would like it and others would not. There have been others (not just you) who have found the piece wanting. Fair enough. That comes with the territory.

What is puzzling as I have said over and over again, is your violent reaction against any poor, hapless soul who happened to like what I wrote. Sure they are not as smart and discriminating and creative and oh-so-witty and wonderful as you (yes, yes, we know you are not *saying* you are a literary critic. But neither did they, did they?) but surely they have a right to like my pedestrian crap. Why should they be attacked by you?

Anyway, this is getting boring now, so I will not be responding to your postings on this topic any more.

Hello Gents. Ladies.

I am going to say this one more time.

I have not made any claims to be a literary critic.

I have not made any claims to be a genius or know-it-all.

I have not made any claims to be the finest writer on chowk or a master storyteller in anyway.

I do not really care if this doesn`t do a thing for your immature suppositions if you already think I`m one major arrogant prick who likes to stomp on the little people (only the stupid ones with more confidence than skill) think on.

Thank you for listening and drive safely.

The ``beast`` in this story reminds me of what Churchill used to call the ``black dog``. This was the name he gave to the bouts of depression he suffered. But that was in the mid-twentieth century when Freud`s theories still ruled supreme, and mental problems were thought to be the result of nurture, not nature, and no medicine was available.

So, instead of taking all that Tylenol and Aspirin and Nytol (I suppose anything in excess can kill you, including this over the counter stuff), all she needed to get rid of the beast is prozac or something.

As a short story this was OK. The start is interesting, the beast is interestingly portrayed, the ending is upbeat but lacks punch. There is not a whole lot of meat inbetween in this sandwich.

I think you have promise as a short story writer on chowk, but need to put more energy into your writing if you know what I mean.

These are personal opinions, and come from a worthless source (myself) so dont take them too seriously.

the use of `dots` in your writing somehow `read` well with the entire story. i tend to use them a lot myself...which they say is not `proper` writing. but all the pauses seem just right and sometimes cant be done without .... for me atleast. it was definitely a very good story...due on chowk for a long time now :)

godot (#33):
I said deja vu was not good for my health...I did not say it had anything to do with Jawahara`s health and whether it was her personal account or not.

Re. Carly Simon...I know many songs that say, ``and you are so vain``...;)

#35
Would you like to cry some more and bore me a second time?

#35

And btw...

If Warren Ellis writes juvenile crap, you are the Us Magazine writer (http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2003-weekly/us-29-08-2003/index.html) that will never graduate.

Then again you are an Us Magazine writer and Ellis is a very good prose stylist so we don`t have to go to an If like that.

This is not a half-sad, half-frightened, half-egofingering, half-kissmebaby comment, just in case you half-didnt know half-arsed poster.

Ah! Carly Simon & the song!

read somewhere recently that the tomcat will be let out of the bag. Was disappointed to learn the other name dropped (MJ). The Warren of Splendour i-t-g would always be the real Warren. Rest is just media hype and girlie-talk to hook and snare the real-man that was warren. A victim (or victor , take your pick) of the method-acting in that movie.

You`re so vain

---

some of the classics which nearly made it to a ghazal of urdu and a geet of hindi.

PS: Only suicide-bombers or suicide-bimbos hit the news. The rest fade away in diaries, notes, or bi-polar disorder journals: meaning no one misses them. The soccer above ground continues and the mirth and laughter does not stop for even a silent prayer.

Stop eulogising `dark` (whatever the anglos have taught you) thoughts and you will stop writing your live-elegies.

Besides,It is HARAAM for a muslim.

Zeeshan, #24.

Hmm...let me get this straight, because someone else said that some people at chowk fancy themselves literary critics you decided not only to attack me (which is fair because I did put my work out there) but also those hapless, uncreative, neanderthals who happened to like what I wrote? Yup. Sure, makes sense to me.

Of course in the process of reading that post I also read your essay. Good God! Can we say mental masturbation? I have to say that everything you criticize me for (and more) exists in your piece. Self indulgent, self aggrandizing and yes sometimes *uncreative* writing that makes me want to shrug and ask, ``And I should care about why you write because....?`` However, there were some really well written parts and a certain earnest youthfulness came through that was quite endearing.

As far as the other link in your response. Was that supposed to be a glimpse of some wonderful, disturbing stuff? It was puerile, juvenile crap trying to reach and falling far short. Just my opinion, of course. Just as people liking what I write or not, is their opinion.

Like I said, I put my stuff out there and get ready to be critiqued. Some will like it. Others will hate it. Still others will be indifferent. Some will get it. Others won`t. That is an occupational hazard that all of us who are self obsessed enough to write, live with. It is enough for me to write. I don`t have to ensure that people get it or like it.

I still don`t get, however, despite your oh so illuminating links, why you feel a need to attack those who did like this story, with such venom. Like it`s personal for you. Maybe it is.

Urstruly,

``On a side not - yaar I too feel hots for suicidal babes - may be it is the man in me who wants to save someone -``

You worry needlessly pal.

Your future babe(s) will have 3 months with you tops...before she feels suicidal

;)

Jawahara -

A brilliant piece as it is, and despite its universal appeal, but perhaps because it came from the heart and too personal, I see it has left some readers confused and puzzled because of its obscurity and the dots that don`t seem to connect...might as well...it`s better that way...too much public revelation is not good for your health, as Farzana retracts below...


Saima -

Somehow I knew the song will not escape those who know it...!!!

Btw, Carly Simon never admitted who it was for, but those who know the history know...like you do...and...I’m betting...also Farzana...

This is certainly a great song...a classic...and you`re right...it`s not only very intense but also a great sing-a-long...thank Warren for the inspiration...!!!

re: scott #28

...be nice to ZM..he will cry and curse if you hurt his feelings

# 24

We have not gathered here to put Jawahra`s character on trial or cast moral judgements on her personal self just because she is not ``creative enough``; this is a work of fiction and lets keep it at that.

On a side not - yaar I too feel hots for suicidal babes - may be it is the man in me who wants to save someone - but you are going overboard.

Excellently written. I love the lyrical language.

Of course, the theme of suicide/inner demons is well worn (and probably more to women`s taste, judging from the responses here) but that doesn`t matter. What matters is that the story is vividly narrated, and grips the reader from start to finish.

The characters seemed real, and the hospital description was scary. I bet if someone intending to commit suicide were to read this, he`d have second thoughts.

re: godot

can i sing along??

---

you probably think this song is about you
dont you dont you

there are clouds in my coffee
clouds in my coffee
...and you`re so vain...

Carly Simon

Your use of the word ``beast`` to describe what overtook the woman, was brilliant. Your description is as real as it gets, right down to the angry arrogant doctor/ irritated paramedic/ perplexed husband. I am glad I did not miss this fascinating read.
Between your old piece that ended with the sound of chicken bone breaking, and this, you have skillfully described the trials and tribulations of a childhood trauma survivor.

RE ZM # 24
Getting certificates from 12-Head! Getting really desperate now aren`t you? Of course you are the only serious ``writer`` on this site.

And I hope you were joking when you gave a link to the dark culture site. What next links to episodes of Buffy?

.... to be honest i couldn`t get past the first section and skimmed through the rest of it looking for the plot ......... is there one, or is it just about another silly housewife trying to kill herself because some demon is telling her to? ....... it would be a lot more interesting if we knew what was ailing her - the price of onions, a mother-in-law from hell, a sister-in-law whose tongue won`t stop wagging, her husband`s hairy ears or his hairier back, the fact that he grunts and rolls over asleep and leaves her counting sheep, rush limbaugh`s monlogues about feminazis? ......what?............. or like the vietnam syndrome is it simply a bored housewife who is hearing voices? ............. who wants to read about that ?...................... the subject matter seems so contrived that no amout of good writing can make it interesting ..........it is the kind of stuff that you can read in any women`s magazine with fabio on the cover .............. no offence, but that is how i feel about it..........

................. i just couldn`t get past ````How many have you taken? Which ones? Tell me. Please tell me.`` Ishan`s voice trails off, half pleading, all-sad, all frightened, tears seeping between the words like sheets of rain.................... ``tears seeping between the words like sheets of rain`` - can you imagine a man writing a line like this and then being able to walk down the street !

Hamidm: for once sir I agree with your analysis. When I read it, my overriding thought was, ``Stupid man, why ddi he keep pills in the house with a wife who`s known to be suicidal!``

This piece reminded me specially the hospital part of Alice Sebold`s memoir ``Lucky`` about being raped as a college student. I was thumbing through it in the store and was mesmerized. Now that`s gritty writing, hardly any sentimentality (for those of you that object to the sentimental) and very, very brave.

Jawahara...

http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002449&channel=gulberg#interact

See post 25 which is a miniscroll away.

#22

I never said she was overzealously projecting her stuff at all..

If you can`t rid of the habit of writing selfinterested portions of yourself into your stories, you should at least be creative about it.

Nothing about that is disturbing.

But this is...

http://www.opi8.com/word/word.php?id=84

......well written, but the subject bores me to tears .......... who cares about suicidal lunatics loosing arguments with their inner demons.......... same old stuff - every time you turn around, pathetic vietnam vets, dejected gays, and depressed housewives are boring us with their silly attempts at killing themselves ........... i wish people would stop writing about it; maybe then these fools will either stop or actually go ahead and kill themselves ..........spare us the gory details: ``i took some pills and then i died``..... that`s all we need to know..........

I think this is one of the best by J and definitely it is a break from the usual mediocre stuff that is published at Chowk. No work is perfect. I agree with some of the critique by Zeeshan in his #4, though I wish that he had chosen a different tone. I do not agree with his assessment that J is ``overzealously`` trying to project her personal self thru this work. She might be; because an authors thought process is nothing but her projection of her vision but it is neither overzealous nor cheap.

Jawahara:
Besides being a disturbing read, as it takes one into a world beyond the world, I liked the way you as writer stood poised between the ``world of hurt`` and ``killing him many times``. There were some loose edges, but I suppose they were meant to give the reader the leeway to explore herself. Just wondering, though, whether ``illuminating the darkness`` happens only when the battle is fought together... enough for now. Deja vu is not good for my health!

Regards,
Farzana

Jawahara:

…shall I join the chorus too?…welcome back and yes, stay around…

one word comment on this story…‘vintage’ …

“Chemicals to correct the imbalance” brought this digression:

balance is such an important concept…and a maligned and under utilized word…balance in life…in chemical composition of body fluids…in thinking…in outlook…

…and those who achieve or strive for it are way ahead of the game…yet like nirvana it is ever so elusive…just when one is nearer achieving the impossible the apples rolls and the carefully arranged balance kisses the dust…

…so we are destined to pick up and the apples and start arranging them yet again…perhaps rigor mortis orders this process to halt…

next I want to digress on ‘inner voice’…the ghost, perpetual shadow, alter ego…but am afraid of taking too much of everyone’s time…:)

lve,

t

ps: harpo…haven’t forgotten my promise…each day I take that print out home…soon as I read it I will post my comments on that board…(this may just be to assuage my guilt feelings, you know that!)

Zeeshan, I can totally understand that my writing is not your cup of tea and even perhaps that some of your criticisms are valid. What I cannot understand is the vitriol you direct towards anyone who might actually like my writing and express their opinion. Critiquing a writer is one thing...I put myself out there and am prepared for that. Criticising others for liking the work is something I don`t get. In fact at some points you do what you criticize me for...``see how clever I am.``

I am certainly not chomping at the bit for you to post something so I can tear it down. If it is good I will say so and if it is not, I will keep from lobbing cheap shots at you and try and come up with something constructive while not attacking those who like your work.

To everyone else, thanks for reading and critiquing.

And Zeeshan,

I actually looked for your ilog. I think you are capable of some excellent work, if you keep at it.

Now can we get back to this board`s writer?

Zeeshan,

There are as many ways to tell the truth as there are versions of it. Dude, I take my knocks as a writer. I had to learn to check my ego at the door. I struggle with it all the time.

But it takes time, patience and tolerance as well as the risk taking you are quite good at.

I`m sorry my writing doesn`t do something for you and regret your accidental involvement in my work.

Remember...

You can`t be nice to people and tell them they`re thin little wiener is popping out of their
pants at the same time.

The real truth does not come with extra extra melted sugar.

I don`t like to compare my own writing with someone else`s at all. Feel free to compare me with your Nai if it stimulates you, healthy competition is fine but racing never did any prose stylists any good.

Cloneshah...

I never raised my work as a comparison anywhere. Zeeshan the writer and Zeeshan the reader are two seperate people. You only make your connections to categorise me as to not ignore what I have to say because it offends your sentimentality.

Be quiet please...you distort words and breed confusion.

Zeeshan,

The whole point of being a professional writer is not to tear down others` writing while building yourself up by comparison. This is a surefire way to win yourself ridicule and insult for your opinions, as opposed to admiration and prestige for your work. It makes you look envious and immature instead of learned and accomplished.

It`s a case of critics who can`t write so they just criticize others` efforts. Why not just keep your comments on others` writing to a minimum and let your work speak for itself? I assure you when you are busy improving and editing and critiquing your own work you won`t have much time to pass judgement on anyone else`s.

Zeeshan,

Believe it or not, I read your ilog on some other site. I have the ability to set aside my dislike for a person if their craft is good and appreciate their work.

Yours is not good enough. Keep writing. Learn some humility. You`ll need it.

And how much fiction of mine have you read Samina?

Use feet for counting because your calculator got lost while you were trying to sound different from my post while kissing the writer`s arse.

Cant say I`ve read any thing as good as this by you Zeeshan.

You are sheep.

Assume whatever you like, it`s kind of you (and several others with even lazier minds) to think I`m omnipotent though I wonder where I suggested something like that.

I have actual things to say rather than mouth a bored chorus.

You confuse arrogance with threat dinosaura mediocrita. Enjoy yourself, a reign of ignorance can only last so long.

In addition, not only are his criticisms inaccurate, his remedies are clumsy.

Zeeshan Post #4:

Your arrogance amazes me. Do you really believe you know everything there is to know about writing and are in a position to lecture everyone about their inability to write?

Do let me know.

Jawahara -

Ah, the beast within...lurking...!!!

Very nice...hope you can match your future writings to this one...

You think this song is about you,
Don`t you, don`t you...
-- Carly Simon

Zeeshan Post #4:

Your arrogance amazes me. Do you really believe you know everything there is to know about writing and are in a position to lecture everyone about their inability to write?

Do let me know.

This is very, VERY good.

There are several things I love about the way you`ve written this story; the clear and complex characterizations, the dialogue, the intelligence of the narrator, the relationship of the narrator and her husband-and you pull it off! No small feat!

My one suggestion is that you do some pruning of extraneous words, descriptions and explanations. You`ve got some tight prose here-I`d keep that way- that way you can edit your way out of sentimentality- which you have most admirably kept to a bare minimum.

Funny, after the fifth para, I was thinking, I`ve got to show this to my husband as well!

Also, I agree with Shandana-please stick around.

Good work J

This obviously doesn’t bring too many compliments.

If you’re pissed, you can take a reprieve in the lot that’ll succeed this post who’ll have nothing but gushing praise and ejaculations to greet your brains.

I wish my ignorance was limited because I haven’t a clue about your gender.

It does reek of this “sentimental” feminity which is mostly a good thing for a female readership and last I checked my testicles were intact.

You know your way around a trope or two but in some places you just overdo.

That’s what I leave your story with. Overcooked with undernourished metaphors.

It is definitely one of the better writings I’ve seen on chowk (which isn’t saying much honestly but take what you will of my compliments) and I just clicked on your bio and saw you’ve done a lot of stuff here. I’ll check out a couple when I have time to kill online.

Definitely dove here and found some pearls but the narrator is very uninteresting. I wouldn’t suggest that the narrator is a mouthpiece for your own younger (?) self but we could do without hearing about Rushdie and Springer because they just seem like poppy references, a slice of your own life, rather than meaningful allusions.

You’re trying too hard and showing too much of yourself at which point it becomes “look at how clever I am” rather than “look at my story.”

And seduction/seductive is not a very seductive word (more like a lazy one) especially when you use it twice. And it really became the immediate centre of your tale, complete with the memory baggage one has of reading this in bad novels and hearing it in bad erotic dramas.

Obviously I’m the only one who’ll remotely have complaints.

Right now, its five hits and zero replies, but I can close my eyes and imagine the next fifty orgasms about how moved people were by this.

You impress with one line then repulse me with a lazy cop-out where you’re putting a gun to my head to feel something with a line that you wrote too quickly.

All in all, reasonable and the only frontpager I’ve read here that wasn’t a waste of time.

Stay tuned for the story I wrote a year ago but will be up here soon and you get even over there if you want vengeance.

Pretty dramatic waisay it wouldn’t have been inappropriate if the title was ‘Larger Than Life’ .The beast, or the beast of the conscience that is was quiteee larger than life. Quite a saga, layered thickly. The abrupt sanguinity in the end was better then the stretchy start.

san

This reminded me of Paulo Coelho’s Veronika Decides to Die.
What is the point in living a life, battling and losing to inner demons?
Why lead a mundane life for the sake of living?
Suicides are more painful for those left behind, but your treatment of it in first person and tackling inner ‘beasts’ was very close to reality. A treat to read without much verbosity.

aaah jawahara, how i`ve missed you...

as usual, a pleasure to read. your appreciation of words sensuality always leaves me delighted and envious. this time the content was amazing too. rang true :) i think this one i shall save for my own husband to read.

welcome back, don`t go too far.

shandana