LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030915.html

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030916.html

SR #41 Agreed with you that the day of the mutual fund is probably over, but only as far as MANAGED mutual funds go. This as I understand (based on my ``serious`` study of literature in the motley fool and morningstar) is because three-fourths of managed funds have in fact done WORSE than the stock market as a whole. index funds (like the vanguard 500) which are essentially unmanaged thus did better than the ``managed`` funds while involving very little fee (0.18 percent for vanguard 500 vs. 2.5 percent average for managed funds, as i recall).
When I mentioned a 30-40 year time horizon, i was thinking of pension funds for ``new adults`` (i.e. someone in his or her late teens/early twenties). vanguard may be gone by then, but surely the stock market will still be around. and even if the stock market has been totally transformed by then, the companies in which the stock investment is made will still be around. and even if they are not around (due to takeover for example) the stock would have been exchanged for some new stock.
However, i agree that it would not make sense to put all of one`s retirement money into a 30-40 year horizon. In that case, one could have a MIX: say anywhere from 20-90 percent (depending on one`s risk averseness) of portfolio in some kind of stock index funds, and the rest in specific industries or even companies.
Which brings us to the mining sector. Why do you favor it??

PS: We can continue the discussion on ilog if you wish, but let me know if you want to do that.

I enjoy discussing universities. Better to have discussion on whose university is better, than whose ideology or country or religion is better.

HassanShah $53: “``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.`` ….I`m not sure what to make of that.”

These statements weren’t supposed to be connected. I just meant that in a Western country, the social skills of a LUMS graduate (which may have nothing to do with LUMS) would prove to be an asset in management.

“College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less.”

I agree. It just needs more funding and needs to be more accessible. But I don’t think it is as bad as people make it out to be. One rarely hears of a Pakistani flunking from a US university.

“LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK.”

I would agree, and this holds true for all good Pakistani schools. They can never have the funds to compete with the top-tier Western schools. They can only compete in Asia. However, the selection standards of places like LUMS (and NED, etc.) are probably quite a bit higher than the middle-tier US schools, hence the standard of their graduates will be higher than those of middle-tier US schools.

“ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization.”

Yes, an obvious generalization. I was just talking about the ones I have run across. Pakistanis who make it to the US, specially from middle class neighborhoods, tend to be more desparate and more resourceful, and thus more successful (in my experience). Though I could be wrong.

“I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc.”

Please read dost-mittar’s comments. I have recently learnt quite a bit about Canadian universities, since I help my clients recruit from there now. The only three well-known universities outside Canada are the ones you mentioned. They are generally in the top three always. McGill is the Harvard of Canada. Waterloo is the MIT of Canada. And U of Toronto is the only very large university in Canada (I believe it is the 6th largest in North America). It has the best Ph.D programs in Canada and the most degrees offered, and by far the largest research grants.

After these, come two more: Queens and Simon Fraser. Sometimes these sneak into the top three, in Mcleans magazine ratings (US News equivalent for Canada).

“and campus beauty does not a university make”

Yes, this is true. But one must make an exception for the ones that are spectacularly beautiful. The two that I have visited, that come to mind, are Simon Fraser and University of Colorado. Boulder, Colorado is a slice of heaven. I was actually accepted there, but decided not to go. Sometimes I still regret it. And the view from the Simon Fraser cafeteria’s balcony, which hangs out over a small peak, overlooking a green valley on one side and the Vancouver seacoast on the other side, is worth the price of admission, on its own. And Vancouver is rightly considered, by many, the most beautiful city in the world, with the most beautiful ladies in the world. So the most beautiful view, in the most beautiful campus, in the most beautiful city, surrounded by the most beautiful student body, has to be worth something. U of T, McGill and Waterloo campuses are quite stale, in comparison.

HE:
[When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make)]

That is because it is a 2nd tier university in Canada. By second tier, it means it does not cover all types of courses; in particular, it does not have professional courses like law, medicine, dentistry or teaching. It is located in a suburb of Vancouver, Burnaby. Vancouver also has a first tier university, the University of British Columbia.
In its class though (comprehensive) SFU consistently scores at the top or near the top in the Maclean magazine rating, the most popular ratings in Canada.

Thank you all for your comments. There are a few clarifications that I`d like to make:

1. The cost is of the FULL MBA PROGRAMME and not per annum as some of you have beent thinking
2. I have not raised any point about the financial aid programme of LUMS. I think it is pretty good. Frankly, most of the people in LUMS are on a financial aid. In fact, I think it`s probably the best in Pakistan.
3. a correction: I was informed by a few ppl that student to faculty ratio is calculated over all the student and faculty. What I have stated is an observation of the number of people in the courses that I have taken thusfar, which usually range from 40-180 per class. (And it is a norm).
4. Trekker #52: I am glad that an ex-LUMINITE also read this. However, about your comment:

``The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time.``

What I and the rest of the existing student body is complaining is about the current infra-structure not being able to support it. We all want LUMS to grow to a population of 20,000; but we insist: facilities first!

Bilal

trekker:

... one of them after completing his phd from cambridge is now a faculty member in the eecs dept at mit..

yeah! i keep hearing about him all the time from people. there was an ad in the newspaper about him too. i checked out the mit site and also asked a couple of people i know there and it turns out hes not really a prof... some kind of staff or something but definitely not faculty. from what i hear he has just been creating that impression just because he was involved as an assistant for some class or something. still impressive but only half the truth.

#45 by Romair

``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.``

I`m not sure what to make of that. Enough rich, snotty, Westernized types have led institutions, corporations and even countries to their downfall. Surely, being a manager necessitates some qualities other than the ones mentioned. In any case, I think you hit the nail on the head about LUMS; little in terms of knowledge, but it most definitely allows you to mingle with the rich and famous of Pakistan. Not that developing a social network is a bad thing, but a university should focus on imparting a quality education, not gear itself towards developing an image as a haven for the sons and daughters of businessmen, landlords and politicians. I have mixed feelings about any group that revels in exploiting class distinctions.

College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that`s the main point I`m trying to bring across. LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK. In fact, even in Pakistan, its status as the premier educational institution is under fire. What vexes me no length is the smug contentment shown by the administration at LUMS. Rejoicing in mediocrity is inexcusable, more so because it stems from a mistaken (dare I say arrogant) belief that LUMS is a top-notch research institute. To make matters worse, then there`s the constant disparaging of places like NED, FAST etc., which manage to achieve arguably more with fewer resources. Unless the people at LUMS reconcile themselves with reality, they`re not going to improve.

As far as doing well in the IT market goes, I think a fair chunk of the credit should be given where it`s due; our primary education sector. Unlike the universities in Pakistan, our schools are actually fairly competitive with the best around the world. Maybe it`s due to the fact that brain-drain does significantly impact them. Maybe not. The broader point here is that singling out the weak higher education sector as the driving force behind the stellar performance of Pakistanis abroad is perhaps unfair. There are countless other factors; excellent primary education (though only available to a small nano-percent of our population), social conditions where only the fittest (read most successful) survive and, yes, even some ``natural talent``.

ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization. Some of the ones I met at college have actually fared quite well and aren`t an entirely different breed from the rest of us. Even if the anecdotal evidence has some truth in it, again, I think you`re attributing too much to college education at places like LUMS. As I just mentioned, there are other, more powerful forces at play.

Georgia Tech I must confess is a great school. It was probably the lack of sleep more than anything else that let that one slip in. I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make). Putting aside Acadia, Kent, University of Florida etc., I think that the merits of the aerospace program at Kansas State are debatable and in any case, to the best of my knowledge, LUMS does not have an a program in that area. Nor, from what I`ve heard, does it plan to anytime soon.

#48 by HisExellency

Things are down for Wharton grads these days ? Well, from what I hear from my friends in LUMS, they`re not that rosy for people there either. As for IBA, I don`t think it`s doing that badly. True, it has had its ups and downs over the years, but I know of quite a few people who managed to get admitted to MBA programs at University of Chicago, Northwestern etc. and have landed jobs are places like McKinsey.

There was another post down there somewhere stating that by mingling with those with wads of cash, LUMS graduates manage to get jobs at Microsoft (a company that produces products of debatable quality). Perhaps my view of an educational institute is skewed, but I thought a college is meant to educate people. Not to merely serve as a social networking club.

Hassan !

ok so the avg lums mba may not be a great as the avg wharton mba, but perhaps that is because they`re looking at two diff markets. Its a pretty illogical statement - that job opportunities after a wharton mba are better. Ppl who `choose` to get a lums mba, are those who want to live in Pakistan and there`s nothing better than a lums mba in that case, where u`re more aware of the local market. Most firms wld prefer to hire a lums mba than a person with an mba degree at least from a middle tiered US uni (of course hbs sloan and wharton wld be a diff case). Btw many of these lums mbas (with only their lums degrees) are working on wall-street and doing v. well: i-banking and also in consulting firms, guess they`re not so bad after all - so are they still lemons, that wall street cld not screen out? so much for their several rounds of interviews.

fin aid: lums does give a significant amount of financial aid and a few scholarships. The size of these may not be a large as those given out by liberal art colleges and ivy-leages in the US, but u have to admit that these institutions have been around for much longer. They have trust funds and donors, and are generating a regular income stream from them. LUMS has a long way to go - but given its short history, and not a huge amt of funds to depend on, the fin aid given is still sthg.

cs majors: i don`t know which lums cs majors u grilled - but its preposterous to claim that they`re not as good as ned etc grads. I guess that is why half of the past few lums cs class are employed at microsoft.

grad school: despite the faculty from `not so great` unis, i think its still quite a feat that lums grads are studying at grad schools in ivy-leages in the US and are surviving the rigours too.

and lastly

In fact, the only real edge LUMS provides is that you get to mingle with the rich elite of >the country and might be able to find jobs more easily that way.

yes of course...it was the connections that got `em jobs at microsoft, in i-banking and consulting in the US !

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Lets forget about LUMs, NED, GKI, FAST, or SLUM or whatever. Thesea re not that famous compared to others in Pakistan.

Well, more than LUMS, NED etc there are more important institutions in pakistan. These are world famous for they have made their presense felt in afghanistan, india, NYC and the US and now in China. These are the jehad terror camps in Pakistan. Well the Islamic Republic of Pakistan should rename itself (no not the Dominion of Pakistan as the Pak embassy in US calls Pakistan) but the International Institution for Terror (IIT) -8-()! Atleast there will be one acronym which has a brand feel to it!

Check this out from UNI

China points finger at Pak militant camps

Washington: Trouble could be brewing between long-time strategic allies China and Pakistan.

Recent statements by a senior Chinese official that separatist forces in the country`s restive Xinjian Autonomous Region have had training in several camps in Pakistan have led to speculation on the ties between the two nations, according to Strategic Forecasting (Stratfor).

Separatists in China`s predominantly Uighur-populated northwest were receiving assistance from international militant groups, including instruction in ``several training camps in Pakistan``, regional Communist Party secretary and Politburo member Wang Lequan said at a September 11 press conference for foreign journalists.

The statement is a shocking deviation of protocol between long-time allies China and Pakistan, the geopolitical analytical firm said in a report.

In the past, it said, Beijing has gone out of its way not to implicate Islamabad when speaking of the activities of Islamist militant groups. However, if the quote attributed to Wang is accurate and his views are official, it contains ``startling implications for Chinese-Pakistani relations``.

Speaking about Beijing`s struggle with Muslim separatist groups in the Xinjiang region, Wang reportedly said a small number of training camps had been found in Xinjiang since September 11, 2001, but that several more camps exist in Pakistan. He gave no further details.

The official`s statements could have been poorly translated or unsanctioned, off-the-cuff remarks, Stratfor said. But if his words reflect the current party line, a very sharp policy shift vis-a-vis Islamabad has occurred in Beijing, it added.

About 10 million of Xinjiang`s 19 million people are Muslim Uighurs, many of whom claim they are a distinct ethnic group with a right to declare their own homeland.

Beijing has suppressed a Uighur separatist movement in Xinjiang for more than a decade, and more than half a million Uighurs reportedly have fled from China into neighbouring Pakistan and Central Asia since 1996. From there, Stratfor alleged, they slip arms, aid and insurgents back across the border, aiding the rebellion.






UNI

Romair #45 and Hassan Shah #42.
I agree with most of what you have said Romair but disagree with you Hassan. The Virginia-based company I work for employs 5 LUMS CS grads (including myself) and they have performed very well. I interview 3-4 job candidates per week for the company which have included Indian nationals, Chinese and of course US Citizens from places like U Maryland College Park, UVA and my sense is that the average LUMS grad has a better mix of technical and ``soft`` skills than their US counterparts and better communication skills than other foreign nationals. Now keep in mind that the TOTAL number of CS graduates to date is approximately 350 (Classes of 1997 to 2003) which is a small number as compared to graduates of NED, FAST etc. In my class approximately 20% of the graduates opted to pursue higher education and one of them after completing his PhD from Cambridge is now a faculty member in the EECS Dept at MIT. Of course, as you say Hassan, one or two people gettin into good places does not mean anything but the fact is that consistently from each graduating class students have been getting admissions in the top-5 CS schools in the US such as Stanford, CMU, Cornell. The main problem they are facing right now is to get F1 visas in time! I know of several students who got admissions in top schools but their background check required by the US Embassy for Pakistani nationals was taking months+ and they had to either defer their admissions or withdraw.

Bilal, coming to your original post and concerns - I hear you. And these concerns were raised by the alumni as well with Dr Zahoor and Syed Babar Ali at alumni meetings in the US and they are alive to the situation. The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time. I remember in my time there was no on-campus student housing and students used to share rooms in houses in Defence that LUMS rented (plus if you`re finding so much time to spend in your dorm room they`re not driving you hard enough ;-) ). So hang in there and concentrate on your coursework.

#42 by HassanShah

I don`t think any top Ivy school in the US has a 1:1 student/computer ratio. Even MIT has a 1:7 ratio. Nevertheless, I agree with you that a good student/computer ratio is not as important as student/teacher ratio and the faculty profiles.

However, for some programs such as Comp.Sci, the student/computer ratio is extremely important. You learn more in the computer lab than in the classrooms. Almost all Comp Sci courses at LUMS assign 10-15% of the grade through class quizzes. A staggering 40-50% of the grade depends on biweekly assignments. And another 40% depends on mid-term exams and finals.

Even if you recruit professors from MIT or Stanford, without enough computers you simply can`t teach a CS program. This is the bottomline. NED should contact its alumni for donations and upgrade its computing facilities.

Not many people know that the American University of Beirut is rated as high as the top 25 universities in America. In its list of best international institutes (from 1998-2001 I think), U.S. news included it in the same category as INSEAD (France). During late 1970s and early 80s, it was rated even higher until turmoil struck Lebanon in 1983. About 70% of the faculty is foreign and does not allow any political interference from Hezbollah.

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LUMS, on the other hand, seems to believe most stringently in being penny-wise
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You must be an outsider to the LUMS community. Those who attend LUMS can attest that the university offers plenty of scholarships, bank sponsorships and Qarz-e-Hasna. In my batch, there was a Baluchi student who had aced his FSc exam but didn`t speak English. He couldn`t even travel to Lahore for his interview. He expressed this problem in his application essay.

LUMS sent him an airticket, conducted his interview in Urdu (as a special case), gave him the admission and gave him 100% need-based financial assistance. (During the course of his study, he picked up English and is now working at an NGO in Quetta)

Here is another example. Another friend of mine lost his father at very young age and had to rely on scholarships throughout school and high school. He aced his O-levels and A-levels and then applied to LUMS. He got the Razak Dawood scholarship and did not have to pay a dime out of his pocket. This guy was so brilliant that he maintained a 4.0 GPA in every quarter at LUMS. He is now completing his Ph.D. at CMU.

An Urdu-speaking friend of mine came from Karachi. He had similar problems but didn`t have high grades. LUMS found him a sponsorship with ABN-AMRO bank. Under this deal, my friend was required to maintain a GPA of 3.5 for three years and work for 2 years at ABN-AMRO after graduation. In return, the bank would pay for his education at LUMS.

Just because there are some rich spoilt kids at LUMS doesn`t mean that LUMS discourages hard-working students with financial problems. In fact, all the shining stars at LUMS are people from the latter category who don`t waste their precious time at LUMS in dating, partying and cricket.

#43 by plats8

You are missing the point here. Bilal Tanweer (author of this article) should realize that in terms of computing facilities, LUMS is probably as good as even the best U.S. universities. If he really wants to criticize LUMS management, he should focus on student/teacher ratios and space problem in hostels.

I don`t disagree with HassanShah that LUMS is expensive. But he is overlooking the fact that those who really need financial assistance at LUMS, do get it. The LUMS management is very generous with need-based Qarz-e-Hasna and scholarships.

saynanza: IIT? Right... temme about it? I can give ya names of dozens of your IIT brats who got nuffin better to do than smoke weed n shag gals 24/7 here in london. If you can not rate... do not hate either. And didn`t any one teah ya at your IIT that

Oh please..don`t diss something just because it`s Indian..IIT`s standard is so much better than LUMS, there`s no comparison. What does LUMS boast of? A mediocre faculty, snooty kids paying a hell of a lot to get standard education and a big campus (which, btw, is much much much smaller than that of the smallest American university)...LUMS used to be good, but now a lot of the teachers who worked with the instiution to make it good have left, they`ve gone back to where they came from because of the current mafia that is ruling LUMS now...some faculty, and I say this from personal experience, in the social sciences dept actually have the nerve to insinuate that a LUMS degree and education is better than that of a good American univeristy..insane! shocking! HELLOOO?? wake up and smell the coffeeeee!

#42 by HassanShah

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keep in mind that an average Wharton grad has much better job prospects than an average LUMS grad. Finally, if you`re still not satisfied, let me remind you that the comparison isn`t really even valid. LUMS is no Wharton and any such pretensions are quite misplaced.
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Job prospects for Wharton grads were only bright while the economy was doing great. Now they have to wait for months to get offers. In fact, 75% of the class of 2002 had to sit out for 8 months before getting any offers.

LUMS is no Wharton, but it is certainly the best MBA school in Pakistan. IBA is a close second, but all the other schools are definitely way behind LUMS. Every year the key offerings from Citibank, ABN-AMRO, Shell, Maersk, and other multinationals still go to LUMS grads.

And here is another thing. A LUMS MBA is internationally recognized as well. I am not sure if IBA enjoys the same reputation that it did 20 years ago.

Hassan Shah #42: “CS degrees from LUMS and I have no doubt that the candidates from FAST, NED and UET are far better qualified.”

I have run across a large group from NED. A small group from FAST. And one or two odd from LUMS. So not enough of a spread to consider it a clear opinion (except for NED). I would say in CS, I found all of them to be about the same. The NED guys were generally more middle-class, with weaker English, but more resourceful. FAST were in the middle in both. And the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. If my company was on the line and, I were to hire an engineer, I would hire the NED guys. If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy. The FAST person would be in between, on both.

On the whole, all of them, have proven to be quite good. And have been easily able to compete in the North American IT market, specially the ones who went on to get Masters degree. That is why I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani education system is bad as everyone makes it out to be. They all couldn’t have made it due to just natural talent. I just think the education system is under-funded and only caters to a small group, since there are very few universities.

Interestingly, the group, on the average, I have found to be the weakest are the ABCD Pakistani candidates. The ones who grow up here. They are no match to the ones who come from Pakistan.

The other country, surprisingly, that I have noticed quite good candidates from, is Iran. And they have a higher percentage of girls in the field than Pakistan. So the girls seem to be getting some good education there, apparently. And Iran seems to make really good movies, that win an award or two in international film festivals. The mullahs may have gotten something straightened out there.

These are all based on personal experience and not any statistical data.

“Well, if you go through the latest cached versions of the faculty profiles on google, rest assured you`ll see the following pop up more often than once:

University of Florida
Simon Fraser University
Kansas State University
Georgia Institute of Technology
Acadia University
University of Kent
University of Texas at Arlington”

I cannot vouch for the other ones, but some of these are actually very good universities. Simon Fraser was ranked the best university in Canada a few years ago, ahead of universities like McGill. It is usually in the top five in Canada, and has the most beautiful campus I have ever seen. Georgia Tech is widely recognized as a good school in its areas of speciality. Kansas State University is pretty good in the Aerospace area (though not as good as University of Kansas, which is one of the best in this area along with Stanford, MIT, Univ. of Colorado etc.).