LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

Well I have followed the discussions on LUMS. It is but characteristic of our expediency oriented mentality and ``all is well syndrome`` that very good institutions decay rather than evolve and grow. I have my comments on another national pride, ``The National University of Science and Technology``.

NUST WAS FORMED ON THE NUCLEUS OF MILITARY INSTITUTIONS. Therefore all its colleges bear a remarkable military sociology which cannot be grasped by a civilian called NUSTIAN. Like all military institutions, it is geared to first deeducate and then build a new individual fit to meets its corporate needs. Unfortunately, this proximity to military exclusiveism defeats the NUST objective of higher professional learning AND CREATIVITY.

THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE COLLEGES IS MEDIVIAL IN NATURE. Teacher student relationship is conspicuous by its absence. In any case the average size of the class is eighty students and too difficult to handle. By the time the semester ends, most teachers do not even remember the names of all the students.

THE SUBJECTS ARE TAUGHT IN LINE WITH THE DEMERITS AND NOT THE MERITS OF THE SEMSTER SYSTEM. The MARKING OF PAPERS is mostly done according to the precis and notes handed out by the teachers.Room for creativity is totally cramped as no dissenting knowledge, no matter how authentic and latest is acceted if it does not form part of the makedo precis and handouts. So most O and A level students begin with a severe handicap.
The culture of RATTA and superflous writing in the subjects of social sciences is the name of the game. At times the contempt of the teacher towards certain students specially O and A levels is distinct by penalising of marks.

GIRLS ARE TREATED AS IF THEY BELONG TO A MEDIVIAL PRIMORDIAL SOCIETY. The culture of scarfs, duppatta and covering limbs upto the ankles and wrists is strictly imposed. Girls from the O and A level streams are taken as softies, too westernised,easily approachable by males and hence vulnerable and exploitable. No matter how brilliant in past academics, they seldom do well. However the entire system works over time to bring them back to the national values.

LACK OF COMMITTED FACULTY. Due to the non congenial atmosphere, good faculty finds the place soffocating with non attractive financial packages. Given a choice, they move over to institutions that offer better economic incentives and initiative. NUST has made this deficiency by getting the services of Army Education Corps Officers. Most are the bottom of the barrel type, outdated but typically very commanding. They neither inspire nor show any trait towards updation. Many are far behind on latest scientific theories and outrightly reject querries raised by more progressive students. The art of survival therefore lies in `` to do as the romans do``.

DESPITE ALL THESE FIOBLES, THE NUST CONTINUES TO TAKE PRIDE IN ITS PRESTIGE. THE BIGGEST SYMBOL OF INERTIA AND NEPOTISM IS EFCOURSE THE RECTOR HIMSELF DULY SUPPORTED BY HIS TEAM OF PART TIME ACADEMICIANS; THE COMMANDANTS. IT REMAINS THE HOLY OF HOLIES

BY VIRTUE OF ITS CLOUT NUST FINDS A PLACE EVERWHERE. Academically it is on an unlearning curve.

man, hassan, theres no comparison between the o`/a` levels and the matric/fsc system. undoubtedly, there are smart people in the local system and they`ll retain their ``smarts`` throughout ... but the system is absolutely pathetic. a million reasons for this: lack of funds from the centre, outdated syllabi, corruption in exam boards etc. one could write a dissertation on this.

as for primary schooling, well, my only masla with most primary schools is that they don;t place enough emphasis on english. because thats the medium of instruction for most subjects (barring urdu), someone who doesn;t understand english will be unable to comprehend whats going on in science or social studies or even mathematics. its really quite sad. i`ve met some very smart children who suffer at schools because they can`t speak and understand english properly. and then a sense of inferiority may develop blah blah blah. distressing.

I d agree with bilal regarding mismanagement at lums.. As i see the full force of the newly inducted class of 2007.. it rarely seems like a university anymore rather a fish market... Though i agree that a greater number of students be inducted in each batch but consideration should be taken regarding providing and equippin the uni with more facilities.

The greater number of students causes problem in two departments
1. It leads to a killing of your own students job market...
2. With exponential increase of students and not even a linear increase of resources.. i fear a greater Malthusian struggle.

Lastly another thing the administration has really no concern on hearing the students regarding the issue.. so much for liberating students thought and representative model.. its all abt power politics..

Talking of the quality of education in Pakistan, another article of interest is on the Textile Institute of Pakistan, ``Pakistan`s ``Intellectual Rubble:`` Learning the Hard Way`` at http://quack.offroadpakistan.com/opinion/
pakistans_intellectual_rubble_learning_the_hard_way.html

HassanShan #167

I did my matric and FSc (GC Lahore). My primary school (class 5) was a federal public school in Bannu, NWFP where we often sat on the floor on ``taats``. I can confidently say that our school system resulting in the Matric and FSc certificates is better than the average American high school diploma -- but the curriculum lags behind when compared to O/A Levels. But then again, many of my classfellows at LUMS were from A Levels background and I did not feel that I was at a disadvantage -- save for Calculus I.

#166 by lalib

Actually, I must apologise for veering off the topic. My last three posts focus almost exclusively on responding to some of the points Raza was trying to make and have little to do with LUMS.

In any case, at the expense of replacing one digression with another, given that there seems to be a temporary lull in the discussion on LUMS, I was curious as to what other people thought of our primary education sector. Since those of you who went to college in Pakistan are bound to have interacted with students from other schools, I was wondering if you had any opinions regarding how the Matric/Inter system stacks up against O/A levels.

raza, hassan. you guys lost me along the way, totally. what are you arguing about?!?! and raza, what the hell are you thinking?!?! writing?!?! apnay hi paoon par kulhari wala scene hai ...

#164 by razzz

Hilarious. One points out something to which you have no response and you resort to the old ``it doesn`t matter what you think`` routine. Given that this is the second time you`ve clutched at that straw, I`m beginning to think that the only opinions you respect are the ones that seem to mirror your own.

Oh and yes. My last two posts had little to do with LUMS and focussed primarily on pointing out the flaws in your logic and disabusing you of the notion that Cornell took you in because you were some spectacularly overachieving student with stupendous SAT scores. I would have assumed the disclaimer:

``The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye`` (#145)

might have given this fact away, but I guess my expectations of others are undeservedly high. In any case, since you`ve chosen (wisely) not to proceed further along the ``I was admitted to Cornell but still got an average GPA at LUMS so ...`` path and are striving hard to extricate yourself from the mess by redirecting the discussion back to other things, I shall take it as an indication that the points I wanted to make have finally sunk in.

Coming now to your hastily typed mail, there are a few things I`d like to say. I find the theory you proposed quite charming, though well along the lines of the other claims you`ve made. I really don`t understand why you think all criticism stems from being complexed, jilted, jealous etc. You really need to be more mature about these things. This is, after all, a discussion forum. One of the key ideas about a discussion forum is to talk about things, to examine what opinions other people hold and to reflect upon them. Some of the views might (according to you) be illogical, founded on untrue claims and not convincing, in which case you are entitled to correct them, but simply dismissing beliefs outright as ``complexes`` or being borne out of some ``hard to digest`` fact hints at an insular outlook.

For the record, once again, I have nothing to do with LUMS. Wasn`t rejected there and certainly wasn`t edged out by some brilliant individual like yourself for a job. So please don`t make it sound as if anyone who has any comments about the place does so because of deep-seated resentment. I also find your claim that:

``students from LUMS ... it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students ... [which] is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent ``

nothing short of an inane conspiracy theory. I doubt that Ivy-league graduates are simply languishing away in Pakistan without finding employment while all and sundry are busy rolling out red carpets for those from LUMS. Moreover, I would also be quite chary of accusing foreign grads of being so incredibly petty and bitter as to collectively propagate vicious slurs about the people at LUMS simply if they are willing to work for less. I have no desire to delve into the arrogance-related discussions, but I will say this much : they have been around since well before 9/11, so it`s ridiculous to claim they`re something ``new`` and attribute them to the phenomenon you described.

I hope you`ll take some time to read (and to think about) what I write before jumping to respond with an angry word here and an ill-thought out claim there.

re : hassan

I again have to repeat that it hardly matters what kind of views ill informed people like you have about lums so take a chill pill and instead of focusing on sentences over here try to check out the bigger picture which it seems is beyond you. The basic problem it seems over here is that after 9/11 a lot of the foriegn qualified students dont get jobs in usa and have to come back to pakistan to look for work, and when they do that they face a lot of competition with students from LUMS who it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students because first of all LUMS students are known for their skills and hard work and they are willing to work for less compared to their foriegn counterparts. This is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent etc. As i said earlier....taking an already brilliant student and getting good results of him/her can hardly be called as doing amazing stuff.......which is one of the CORE advantages IVY leagues have. So try to rise above urself and get rid of ur complexes.

cheers
raza

Too many people, even more opinions and a rather endless argument. Bilal is an ultra-democratic person who would even sue the government if his rights aren’t delivered at doorstep overnight. And well, as loud and clear his account is, he has received substantial acknowledgement. But people this is a very magnified version of problems that do arise in universities everywhere! If you look at the Punjab University, NCA, Karachi University, IBA or UET, LUMS is seriously a baby university. The B.Sc. program is hardly 10 years old. The new campus, perhaps not even that old. Considering this, I think LUMS is making a remarkable progress and the only institution in Pakistan that challenges it for the top slot, by and large, is the prestigious Aga Khan University. And well if you even try to compare LUMS with American or European universities, that will show how disregardful your observation is. Most well-established American universities are at least twice as old as Pakistan and institutions like Hardvard and Cambridge (U.K.) are more than six times as old as Pakistan. Legacy is a significant factor required in order to excel. Trial-and-error and collapse-and-recovery are cumulative processes that eventually lead to a healthy system, may it be human physiology or an administrative body. I believe we are unfortunate that we have to bear these “troubles of initial phases” of a grand-institution-in-the-making, but I also sincerely believe that we will be among the fortunate few who would proudly sing our alma mater 20 or 30 years down the road.

Inayatullah in todays The News International



``Striking indeed is the news of a visiting team from abroad finding that ``obsolete`` IT syllabi was being taught in Pakistan. This finding is based on the team’s visit to some of the leading universities where even the top students will have to be retrained, for them, to understand state-of-the-art information technology developed by such leading firms a Samsung, IBM and Nokia.``

And yet we say we are as good as MIT Stanford etc!

# 149 by Sobia

``A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right``


huh? i think ppl who did so (on this thread), did qualify their statements...honey, no-one is comparing lums to a foreign uni - in fact the point of contention is whether its the best place in pakistan, currently.

I guess since we have been branded as arrogant...and it seems that there`s no escaping the label....i`ll have to agree with the grand and infallible statement.

Way to go Hasan:P
Khair...
I agree when people say that Luminites are arrogant. And even when one says that a large number of the people coming to LUMS are from the elite of Pakistan. But personally I was surprised by the diverse mix of people of people from different backgrounds of the Pakistani society at LUMS and how easily they were able to adjust. And as far as the fees are concerned, I agree that LUMS is expensive for a university in Pakistan but i compliment the LUMS administration on their financial aid program. The amount of aid might seem like peanuts as compared to the universities in states, but it is a start never the less and something which is to be encouraged. I know a great many people who can`t afford to pay the entire LUMS fee, but who are currently studying there because of a mix of scholarships, loans, and grants.
Another thing that I noticed after studying in an American university and meeting people from different various universities is that in LUMS the competition is sky high. When a Luminite transfers to a university in states there GPA seems to jump up by at least 0.5. It seems that the competition in LUMS pushes you to work harder. And I am not just talking about some second tier university in states. At LUMS I found people who rejected offers from the Ivy Leagues to stay at LUMS. The post 11th September scenario has further strengthened that trend. But whatever the reason the level of competition has gone up at least in the 2006 batch.
And I am in no way comparing LUMS to any Ivy League university! :P
As for the fiasco in the dorms, some universities even in The States have faced similar situations. Last year Boston University was faced with a similar problem, as a much higher then expected percentage of the incoming batch wanted to live on-campus, and to accommodate them all the university bought an entire hotel in Boston! I think i can forgive LUMS for the temporary chaotic setup.
My own personal view is that a larger number of people are applying to LUMS due to the post 11th September scenario and the uncertainty about the US visa process. So instead of criticizing them I applaud them for catering to the increase in the number of students who want to study at LUMS, instead if just refusing those students. And I hope that they are able to increase the available student resources and to maintain the standard that they have set.
Good Luck!

P.S: Aur sunao JESTER hows LUMS these days:P?

I head out for the weekend and I come back to millions of posts. There`s a whole lot of arrogance-related stuff, which, as I mentioned earlier, I don`t care much for, but the following did grab my attention:

``Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities.``

I`ve already said as much. Your support is greatly appreciated.

``In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...``

Your SAT II scores were better than your SAT I scores ? You know what, I regret my brashness (and please do not take this personally) but I must point out that a 720 in Math IIC is fairly ordinary. 740 in Math IC is a bit better, but nothing extraordinary. The allusion that Cornell was overawed by your SAT I and SAT II scores (mediocre at best) is way off the mark and I think the ``because`` in your statement above should only have been followed by the ``my parents could easily have afforded it`` bit. Whether you choose to accept reality or not, I think your admission had more to do with the fact that your parents could easily afford to dole out all that money than the statistics you present (unless you`re hiding more relevant details, e.g., an Olympic medal, relation to some political figure etc.)

And yes, please don`t disparage the above as an attempt to fault your linguistic competence. You`re rattling on about your superlative SAT I and II scores to claim that you were good enough to get into a great college and making all kinds of inferences based on that. All I`m saying is that you`re rich enough to get into a great college, and your average GPA doesn`t amount to anything other than a measure of your performance at LUMS.

``so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions.``

Umm... I said your SAT I score was nothing special, and your SAT II scores are (dare I say it) even less impressive. I said that it was unlikely you would have got in had you been an international student asking for aid, and I still maintain that.

``Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA``

Again, the ``I`` seems to be a critical part of your reasoning. That`s what I talked about earlier; you`re founding illogical arguments on a subjective assessment of your abilities. Did you ever think about starting out with your average GPA and reasoning in reverse ?

``so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s``

SO lets not give ... Amazing. You mention that you get an average GPA and then this ``SO`` ties it up with not giving GPAs much weightage.

``and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities``

It`s not a fictitious belief. American universitites (at least the Ivies etc.) are fairly good and ``amazing``.

``we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.``

Again, deductions based on the capabilities of a single individual. Call my beliefs hearsay, but at least they follow from personal interactions with the people running LUMS, teaching at LUMS, my siblings who got their degrees there, their friends and my own friends at the place (not to mention all the people I met on the campus during my countless visits there), not all of whom would be lying, exaggerating etc. However, I think at least I`m not guilty of extrapolating single observations and subjective individual-assessments into a string of arguments like you`ve done on more than one occasion.

Ligthen up. If you get the impression that I`m leading some kind of mass-campaign to shut LUMS down, I apologise for having come across like that. I think it`s a decent place, but could be much better. I also think that it`s not all that it`s made out to be and in order to improve, the people at LUMS need to take a realistic view of things into account.

tayyab,

1) i think i explicitly said ``of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat``.
this does not imply that everyone and anyone from these `elite` schools is arrogant. i don`t see how this sentence can even convey that ... if it does somehow manage to imply that ``everyone and anyone`` from these elite schools is arrogant, i`d like it understood that that was not what i meant.

2) yes, lums is an elite school. i don;t see many students from the low-income cadre. exceptions abound, but let`s face it, by pakistani standards lums/giki/akuh are pretty elitist. the average pakistani can only dream of such a place.

3)i used elite and elitist interchangably in the last point, although i realise the difference. it just so happens that in pakistan, as elsewhere, they often tend to be the same.
of course, there are elite schools that aren`t elitist such as cadet college hasan abdal. there are elitist schools that aren;t elite ... i shouldn`t take names:) .... then there are school that combine the properties of both: Exclusivity and Distinctiveness. prime examples are aitchison and kgs. lums lags far far far behind in this list. i MEAN far.

we can continue to argue over little details and how i mis-implied something but i hope you get my drift ...

4) and my argument was meant to exonerate the arrogance of lums students. i said that the blame for that should be distributed amongst the many feeder-schools in the country. students from these schools and from a certain background are likely to be arrogant. even in amreeka. yes, tayyab, it does mean that amreeki unis have their fair share of arrogant, spoilt, conceited pakis.

i do think that it was a flaky argument (i even implicitly acknowledged it as such) that could be shot down a million times over but it was just an argument that was meant to question the sweeping statement that lums breeds arrogance. despite it`s weakness, it at least serves it function.

regards

Ok lets analyze ur misgivings about lums and my prev post one by one.First of all i and almost any luminite would be open to any consrtuctive criticism and i repeat constructive criticism coming from (an informed person not any tom dick n harry out there) who has never been to lums but thinks that it is his/her right to blast lums for no reason at all. Lums has its share of faults but we need to go over them in a logical manner not just shoot volleys in the dark as a certain lady has been doing.

I dont know about you people but i dont think calling luminites as arrogant and haughty is considered constructive criticism by any intelligent person(discounting ONE genius over here) specially when you know the university doesnt play any part in that. I was in the univ for four years but i dont recall any course on arrogance being taught over there nor i can imagine arif zaman or wasim azhar teaching us to be very proud of ourselves and think of us as one step above others. Plus everyone knows its a relative term and can not be generalized for the whole student body of lums or any other university.

Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities. In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions. Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities because we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.

As for the continous harping about lums taking in a much larger batch for BSC well lets carefully analyze that shall we. First of all you have to realize that Pakistan is a very popolous country with very few universities available to students let alone GOOD universities. So most of the student body over here doesnt even have to access to good education. Thus expansion and providing better education to a greater number of people should be the aim of every good university. Any problems with that ?

Now you would argue that quality should be mantained.....well as far as i know LUMS is trying its best to keep up the quality..and succeeding to some extent as well. Sure there are problems with the accomadation facilities but they will go away with time as new hostels are already being planned. Furthermore we have to realize that the Hundred (supposedly extra i.e. 400 instead of 300 or 250 ) students which are being taken by the university dont lag that much behind the first couple of hundred students which were taken by lums previously and those who do lag behind are shunted out( sorry for using this word over here) by the relative grading system being used by LUMS. An example would be that the original strength of my batch was 202 and by the time we graduated that had reduced to 144. That alone is reflective of how quality is mantained in lums. Plus we also need to look into the fact that after 9/11 a lot of students which otherwise would have gone to USA are now applying to lums instead of going abroad. Lums also has to cater to them now. I cant seem to understand why people are so bent upon making an elitist insitituion out of lums and want it to remain confined to teaching a few selected no of students.

Apart from this those of you who cant even think of comparing LUMS to the top american schools also need to look into the fact that teaching brilliant students is a lot different from bringing out the best from an average student. Top schools like Harvard, Stanford and Wharton get the cream of students from all over the world ....and in my personal opinion they dont perform any miracle when they convert these already brilliant students into exceptionally talented managers and professionals. In my view a job well done is taking an average student and making an accomplished professional out of him. In my view the LUMS bsc program does that to a little extent (i wont actually call it a miracle but atleast a good attempt) by having the quarter system instead of the semester system because it makes one more used to pressure situations and tough work loads which compensates for that brilliance exuded by the top american students to some extent.


cheers
raza