LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

zird, funny you don`t know how snooty the faculty is considering that you seem to be defending lums like you`re a student/ ex-student...one would think you would have a fair enough idea of their attitude. As far as the students are concerned, i guess you`re just not ready to admit something that`s common knowledge in the market! I`m not talking about students becoming `cliquish`; I`m talking of their attitude when they go out into the work field. A lot of employers complain of the neverending `nakhras` of the lums-walas which is really amusing, considering that in the end, it is just a local university, as opposed to bigger, better schools abroad.

#88 by Faisal Uno,

are you sure the person who moved to mcb was number three ? In any case, a lot of people are moving over to local banks and that has more to do with better opportunities.

#90 by Sobia,

firstly a correction, there were not 110 students in classes of 97 and 98. The numbers started increasing in 99.
secondly, i have no idea how snooty the faculty is or is not. But as far as the students are concerned, its a pretty preposterous assertion - it doesn`t come from the fact that they go to lums, it has more to do with the fact that it is an elitist university, most students know each before hand, so they`re likely to become cliqueish.

i actually worked at one of those foreign banks in pak whose name is being branded about here and my experience with lums grads during that time was very positive. and there is no question that right off the bat, lums grads bring more to the table in terms of problem solving skills and technical abilities than iba grads. hence i would prefer a lums grad if i was hiring a candidate for an analyst type position which involved running financial models and building ppt presentations. otoh, i would prefer an iba grad if i wanted someone whose job would be to convince memon and chinnioti seths to route more of their business with us while at the same time, paying us top rupee. (not as easy as it sounds and might involve a lot of salan spills).

also as things are shaping especially in the financial sector, demand for mba`s in pak is going to be driven by local rather than foreign banks. no foreign bank in pak is currently willing to commit capital or assume risk to the extent needed to compete with behemoths like habib, ubl and mcb. and for the first time in the history of pak, top talent from foreign banks are willingly moving to local banks with salary packages that are two to three times higher. (rumor has it that top level executives at ubl -such as head of consumer banking- are getting paid in the range of Rs. 1-1.2 mn per month + benefits such as a house and car). and demand and salaries are going to go even higher after habib is privatized probably by the end of the year. and incidentally, the number three ranked guy at our bank who was also a lums grad very recently moved mcb. dont know however if fresh lums grads would be excited at the prospects of working for a local bank. still they might not have a choice.

Romair:
Hey Romair u always seem to be talking about hiring people for IT and stuff. I`m looking for a workterm position from the Jan to April 2004, I can send u my resume and let`s see if you have something for me. I can be reached at famalik@engmail.uwaterloo.ca


and yeh a student from Pakistan going into a high school in Canada can easily out score the ABCDs by a margin of atleast 10-15%, and that is no exaggeration.

and yes SFU is a really good university and the campus at Waterloo is very ugly (but some of the research labs are pretty slick).

//Sobia: your comments are a gross generalisation. LUMS grads may have their own cliques, but all unis have that. At my work, a large proportion of students from a certain ivy-leage generally hang out together, but that does not imply that they are snotty.//

Zird, I admitted myself that it IS a generalization, but unfortunately it`s also something I`ve observed over a period of time, having lived in Lahore and seen people from LUMS very frequently. There`s a difference in being proud of where you`ve studied from (like I am of my university!) and from being arrogant and snooty about it. More than even the students, the staff/faculty at LUMS really needs a reality check.

No one is denying LUMS is good, perhaps even better than some other schools in Pakistan, but my main point of contention is that the standard is declining, and I can say this from watching people I know get admitted into LUMS easily while having mediocre educational backgrounds. The average class size used to be 110 at LUMS (not sure of this number, just an observation from knowing people who went to LUMS is 1997, 1998 and 1999) and has now increased more than three-folds, with the faculty size not increasing proportionately. If you`re going to admit 400 students in your Bsc program and not provide the requisite facilities that go hand in hand with it, there will surely be problems...

//Romair: I think it is unfair to compare South Asian colleges with North American colleges. //

exactly...perhaps someone should tell this to the LUMS faculty too? There`s no comparison, so stop comparing.

#84 by HassanShah

Ok so a couple of IBA grads also make it and LUMS grads do too, but it has developed a better rep relative to IBA, so i think it attracts better students on average. I think we seem to be repeating the same arguments over and over again. IBA grads go to uchicago or nw - so lums grads do too : harvard, mit, yale, stanford, nw? In one of your earlier statements you implied that iba grads are superior to lums grads, i don`t understand how you reached the conclusion - its like comparing oxford and cambridge, they`re all great institutions, but one of them has better facilities and more money.

As for post-docs - A post-doc is a great acheivement too, though i`m not to familiar with CS. It offers you more opportunities to get a publication and get an academic position later on. I know some people (not this gentleman) who also preferred taking up a post-doc position to strengthen their research before they entered the job market. I don`t think doing a post-doc is entirely that `embarassing` as you put it.

btw there are a lot of other Pakistani in academics, but they all have undergraduate degrees from the US/ UK - I don`t want to mention names, they`re all very well placed, but they went to Harvard and MIT for their undergraduate degrees too, so their is a still diff.

rsridhar #83,

Actually, I happen to be from one of them and have visited most. The campuses have
basic amenities, and that`s about it. Compare it to something like TIFR and you can
see the difference. Things might`ve changed in the past 4-5 years; haven`t been back
there recently.

#82 by zird

LUMS grads are better those from IBA ? I`m not really convinced of that. I think I said this earlier, but I`ll mention it again; a fair share of the people who go to IBA end up at places like University of Chicago and Northwestern. Both of those universities are about as good for business as CMU is for CS. At best, IBA and LUMS are at par.

``your argument does not explain ... lums grads managed to get jobs at places in the US, where one w(ou)ld say that the selection process is fair``

I wonder why people consistently turn a blind eye to the fact that a whole bunch of graduates from IBA are also working in the US. I personally know of a few associates at McKinsey, a VP in one of the larger banks in the US and another person who just landed a great job at GM. In any case, the belief that the job selection process is ``fair`` in the US is quite naive. Contacts matter everywhere. Period. Even if you have a distant relative working in a group that`s hiring, he or she can always pull a few strings to give you a massive edge. Not to mention, if you`re rich and your parents flew over the States to give birth to you there are all those little visa issues that never crop up. Face it. If you`re rich and well connected, you automatically have an advantage.

#81 by plats8

I think being a post-doc at a place like MIT is definitely an achievement. However, I agree that it`s been blown out of proportion. Most colleges have a large number of post-docs to do all the (if you`ll excuse me) grunt work that professors don`t want to touch themselves. Since PhD students are busy with their research and professors are invariably tied down with a whole bunch of things ranging from raising funds to teaching and supervising research projects, post-docs often serve as the glue that binds things together. The majority of the people from places like MIT and Stanford, who get their PhDs in CS, prefer to take up teaching positions at smaller universities over a post-doc position. For one, you get to start your own, independent research projects and aren`t condemned to tying up loose ends for someone else. So yeah, I agree with your opinion that being a full professor at a decent research institute beats being a post-doc at MIT.

Incidentally, there are quite a few Pakistani professors teaching in the US at top schools (and I`m fairly certain they`re really professors and not research staff). I find it quite surprising that there`s been so much talk about this gentleman in question and almost nothing about them. I would be interested to hear where they got their degrees from.

HassanShah!

As for the fact that LUMS grads manage to find jobs, well, if you belong to some of the >>richest families in Pakistan, I would be surprised at your inability to do so. I think places >>like IBA should get credit for sufficiently empowering their students to go out and get ??>>jobs despite the greater diversity of student backgrounds.

It may be diff for u to swallow, but it is true, lums grads are better than those from iba. I know ppl who hire at mncs (iba grads and khi-ites - ppl from karachi tend to prefer iba) and they all admit that they wld prefer a lums mba anyday. I think u`re placing too much emphasis on the need for connections to get a job. In any case even if u think this is prevalent in Pakistan, your argument does not explain the fact that these lums grads managed to get jobs at places in the US, where one wld say that the selection process is fair.

I think u misconstrued my earlier remarks too (abt lums grads getting jobs at ms etc through connections, that is not true, it was a `sarcastic` remark cuz nothing cld be further from the truth)- by your argument if every lums grad only gets further in life due to his / her connections, then its diff to understand how they got placed at universities (and jobs) abroad.

Sobia:
your comments are a gross generalisation. LUMS grads may have their own cliques, but all unis have that. At my work, a large proportion of students from a certain ivy-leage generally hang out together, but that does not imply that they are snotty. Though I do agree with HassanShah, that lums students may not get to interact with as diverse a set of students, relative to iba or qau etc, but that is a shortcoming that lums is trying to overcome. As far as i am aware, they have initiated a scholarship program for students from under-represented areas.

As for lums being elitist - that argument can be made for oxford and cambridge too, where a large proportion of intake students are from public schools (in England public schools are like the private schools we have in Pakistan and in the US).

The bottom line is that instead of only looking at the negatives, how abt considering the good aspects too? For instance, more students from pakistan in the area of econ and social sciences are going to grad school at great unis in the US and UK - More Pakistani students are going for research degrees and hopefully some of them will stay on in academia (given the v. few pakistani academics, this wld be a change for the better).

re:#65 by plats8
There are obviously no IITans here to contradict your statement. I have visited IIT Delhi when my friend was doing his Civil Engineering there (and i was a medical student). I will not call IIT campus ``spartan``. By no stretch of imagination! The same goes for other IITs.
http://learning.indiatimes.com/campus/pages/college/iitdelhipro.htm
http://www.iitd.ernet.in/
Sridhar

#76 by rsridhar

++
Indian students are more submissive types, unable to take up a leadership role when circumstances demand it.
++

Pakistanis also have the same problem, though to a lesser extent. This is a cultural difference. In subcontinent culture, we are taught to respect authority and seniority. Most of my Indian colleagues readily share ideas with their peers including myself. But the moment a manager enters the room, they suddenly get self-conscious.

Strangely, ABCDs (both Indians and Pakistanis) don`t have this problem.

I think Indian and Pakistani corporations and universities should encourage an informal culture in which people address each other by first names, instead of ``Sir``.

This will take care of the cultural problem at least. The other dimension is leadership skills such as facilitation, presentations, coaching/mentoring and brainstorming. There are a number of clubs like ToastMaster International that can help individuals acquire leadership skills.

#74 by HassanShah

I am in agreement with your second paragraph. We need a broader base for primary, elementary and high school enrolment.. especially female enrolment in NWFP and Baluchistan.

#77 by Romair

Well said. We had a similar discussion about education in Pakistan a couple of weeks ago in which I also echoed these views. Lack of private investment in Pakistan`s higher education system and low female literacy rates are the primary reason for low ratings of Pakistani colleges.

Salaries, facilities, libraries... everything needs money.

Luckily, there are a lot of international donor agencies that are willing to dole out money for schools and colleges in Pakistan. It just takes a couple of adventurous souls to start another LUMS, IBA, GIK or Agha Khan Med College.

Trekker #68,

Sorry to disappoint you, but being a post-doctoral associate at MIT is not a great
achievement. There are bundles of people who are that, and teach graduate level
courses there; it is a routine thing in many universities. And it most definitely does
not beat being a full professor at an average US university.

His research accomplishments in his field need to distinguish him from his
contemporaries. Flashing a post-doc at MIT certainly won`t.

I think it is unfair to compare South Asian colleges with North American colleges. The differences in the budgets are so huge, that there is no way even an excellent Pakistani college could have the same facilities as a mediocre North American college. In addition, the North American colleges attract professors from all over the world, who voluntarily want to move to North America. While Pakistani colleges face the opposite.

The Univ. of Toronto has 80 Ph.Ds professors in its CS dept., the last time I counted. Many of whom are foreigners. Its annual operating buget is around Can $1 billion. It has professors that make over 150k and a few even over 200k. And I believe its research grants are $500 million or higher. And it has 85 different types of doctorates offered. And its library has over 15 million books. And it has a facutly of over 10,000.

I don`t think there are 80 CS Ph.Ds in all of Pakistan. I don`t think the total budget of all the universities/year combined, in Pakistan, would be 1 billion dollars. And I don`t think the total research grants of the whole country are 500 million. And I doubt there are 15 million books in all the libraries in Pakistan combined.

The average salary of a Harvard prof in 2001 was $147,000/year. http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/peers/current/research_intensive/profsal.htm

So it is like comparing apples to oranges. I think a better comparison would be within the Asian context. In those rankings, in 2000, according to AsiaWeek, LUMS has the 3rd best full-time MBA program in South Asia, after Indian Inst. of Management(s) Ahmadabad, and Banglore. In student selectivity for MBA, LUMS is 5th in all of Asia+Australia. And second in South Asia, after Ahmadabad. So it is ahead of all other Indian and Pakistani business schools in this area.

Interestingly, Asiaweek also ranks the best cities in Asia. Amongst South Asia, in 2000, Islamabad is apparently the best city, at no. 23. Its main asset is that, it has the second lowest level of crime in Asia/per total population. Banglore is second at no. 27. It has the 10th lowest level of crime in Asia. Delhi is 3rd at at 31. After that, it is :

Bombay (33 best- Apparently, the safest city in Asia at no. 1, i.e. lowest level of crime/total population)
Chittagong (37)
Karachi (38 )
Dhaka (39)

So, Bombay and Islamabad are the two safest cities in Asia/per population. In 1999, Islamabad was the safest city in Asia. And Singapore is 25th safest. Go figure.

I guess Pakistan isn`t as unsafe as people keep saying. At least not in 2000 and in 1999.