LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

HisExcellency #25: Thanks for the info. I had a feeling my info on salaries was correct.

It the senior professors and Deans get between 2-5 lakhs, then, this would mean that the Vice Chancellor probably gets between Rs. 5 lakh to Rs 8 lakh per month. This would be my guess. This is around what the IT heads of major US companies in Pakistan make. The senior IT engineers/managers that return to Pakistan, I think, can make in the 1.5 to 2.5 lakh/month range (I believe).

Its hard to spend that much money in Pakistan, in one month.

LUMS has some one week to one month training courses for local managers, I was told. And they bring in instructors from abroad to their executive center to teach these courses. Would you happen to know how much those guys get paid, per week? Per hour?

Romair

`` LUMS is the 23rd best business school in Asia. ``

I don`t know what it means in real world. For example, the engineering college I attended (NED ) had department of electronics which was designated as the ``Center of Excellence`` by Japenese ministry of education, their ministry of Industry, and couple of other institutions and regularly received funding from them. The first semester class usually consisted of 250+ students, since it was the only institution in Pak offering electronics engineering, other than Mehran Engineering (which was controlled by jiye sindh and decoits and any non-Sindhi if dared entered there was found to be hanging from one of the trees in the campus). So one teacher and 250+ students in the class; students literally sitting on each others shoulders; and a secod year student couldn`t tell the differenece between amperage and voltage; well a lala from FATA couldn`t tell that even in 4th year. The computer lab was a glass room where about 10 comodores along with about 5 PCs with 4.7 MHz speed resided. Only one computer had a color monitor and rumor had it that one had to sleep with the lab incharge to get to work on that. Only students from electronics department were required to work on computers but students ususally avoided the computer lab like little children avoid the dark closet. Only some hardcore nerds, who didn`t bathe for months were seen in the computer labs. I, though not an electronics student, managed to get in the lab and got familiarized myself with the machine but when one day I found lab incharge eyeing me I decided to buy my own - bad se badnaam bura. I sold my bike and bought a 10 Mhz pc; I became the king in the land of blind. But one day when we saw that HP had broght out its latest 50 Mhz Pc into the market we all fell down to prostrate in humility.

#20 by Romair

I stand corrected. I was overlooking the PhD and MSc Comp Sci programmes. I am sure there must be another 40-60 students in that programme.

The student-faculty ratio is poor no doubt. But this too is more of a problem in the MSc and undergrad programmes. Most of the MBA professors do not teach any undergrad or MSc classes. As a result, the student/faculty ratio in MBA program is still very good.

It seems like LUMS management is giving preferential treatment to MBA program and experimenting with the other programs.

#20 by Romair

All the figures quoted are accurate. LUMS teachers are paid exorbitantly and also get soft loans for car and housing. Recently a friend of mine got a JD from a U.S. university. After spending a few months hunting unsuccessfully for jobs here, he decided to go back to Pakistan. He was offered a 1 lakh per month salary as Assistant Professor by LUMS. (LUMS is starting a new Law Programme).

If you visit the LUMS website, you will actually find visiting professors from Harvard, McGill, Essex and UCLA on the faculty list. When I was at LUMS some time back, there were also two Indian visiting professors who used to fly over from Ahmedabad to Lahore for a few weeks every month. Apparently, Pakistan govt and LUMS board of directors has given a huge grant (something like $30 million) to LUMS just to recruit faculty.

#21 by Urstruly

Are you talking about LUMS in particular? I don`t know enough about the other Pakistani universities, to comment on the general level of higher education. Can you be more specific?

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The whole ministry of education, deans, rectors, and chancellors deserve to be fed to the pigs
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The ministry of education has revamped itself lately. The new minister (Zubeda Jalal) is actually very dedicated about increasing literacy in Pakistan. However, the ministry is presently focussed on female literacy, which is in critical conditions especially in NWFP and Baluchistan.

The govt is not directly involved in higher education. It is attracting private investment in that sector and giving grants (e.g. to hire faculty).

Here is some good news, for LUMS folks:

``LUMS in CSIDC Top 10!

``Shop Easy`` project, designed and implemented by students of Lahore University of Management Sciences, was selected for World Finals of IEEE Computer Society`s fourth annual International Design Competition(CSIDC 2003), starting today (June 28th) in Washington D.C. The LUMS team made it to the top 10, out of more than 170 teams for some of the best universities of the world. To reach the finals, LUMS beat some heavy weights like Carnegie Mellon, Iowa State, Rochester Institute of Technology, University of Florida at Gainesville, University of Massachusetts at Boston, IIT Bombay, IIT Roorkee, Delft University, Nanyang Technological University, University of British Columbia, University of Hong Kong and University of Queensland. (http://www.lums.edu.pk/law_school.html)

Urstruly #21: ``The students who manage to come to foreign universities and perform well do it because of their god given talent and only because of that. I think its God who deserves all the credit.``

God does deserve some of the credit. But I don`t think all of it. The students deserve a lot of credit also.

I think the higher education system in Pakistan is bad, but I wouldn`t go as far as you have gone in criticising it. LUMS is the 23rd best business school in Asia. I wouldn`t call that bad. The overall system in Pakisatn is definitely under-funded. And needs to be expanded a lot. But all these students must have learnt something at these universities in Pakistan, if they can do so well in the USA universities. It cannot all be natural talented. Us Pakistanis aren`t that naturally gifted. Are we?

I didn`t have any trouble transitioning from a Pakistani university to an American one. The level of students was about the same. In fact, most of the students were actually Indian and Chinese. The facilities in the US university were much better. The air conditioning was great. Sports facilities were excellent. There were a lot more professors (many of whom were Indian and Chinese also). The cheerleaders for the sports teams were much better looking (most of whom were not Indian). The parties were a lot bigger. But, on the whole, the curriculum wasn`t any more difficult. And it cost a lot more than Pakistani universities.

Is it true that the tuition for King Edwards Medical College is less than the tuition for a good children`s nusery school?

Romair & HE

Excuse me gentlemen but I think the system of higher education in whole Paksitan in particular and at all levels in general is a heap of garbage. The whole ministry of education, deans, rectors, and chancellors deserve to be fed to the pigs. The students who manage to come to foreign universities and perform well do it because of their god given talent and only because of that. I think its God who deserves all the credit.

HisExcellency: Are the total no. of students in LUMS, at any one time, only 750? That is not a whole lot.

Also, I heard LUMS now has a Ph.D. program, and is starting a law program. Is that true?

And what is the student to prof. ratio? As well as the standard of the graduates, in comparison to the ones you saw in the USA. I get resumes from LUMS grads, every now and then. I interviewed Comp. Sci grad, recently. He seemed to be alright. About as good as an average US grad with a BS degree.

They seem to have a good faculty. Within Pakistan, the only institution that has a better one, would be Aga Khan, according to my research.

I was approached to teach a small course at their executive center recently. A person familiar with those programs told me they charge around 25k to 30k per week (or something) to the individuals attending those courses. Is that true? I asked them about how much they pay their profs. to get an idea of how much to ask for. I was informed the senior professors make 2 lakh + per month. While the dean(s) can make around 5 lakh. And the associate professor level teachers are in the 1 lakh per month range. Do these sound accurate?

Having studied at LUMS myself, I can understand author`s angst.

A few points need clarification.

Firstly, most of the problems that the author mentioned pertain to the undergrad program, not the MBA program. The student-faculty ratio in MBA program is excellent and even the facilities are sufficient, though more would certainly help.

The MBA program at LUMS is quite mature. It was started in 1986. The undergrad program is relatively new. It was launched in 1994. The first batch comprised 70 students, the second one 85 students and the third 120 students. After this the batch size jumpted to 150 and 210.

This basically means that university population is 100 MBA students (1st year and 2nd year) and about 600-650 undergrad students. This brings the PC-Student ratio to 170/750 or approx 1:4. Compare this with Harvard (ratio 1:10), Cambridge Univ (1:12), Yale (1:9), Princeton (1:8) and MIT (1:6). The LUMS ratio is still better than all these prestigious universities.

Most U.S. students usually get their own laptop or desktop in their dorms. Given that PCs cost a dime in Pakistan nowadays, buying a cheaper one from Hafeez Center wouldn`t be a bad investment at all.

Nevertheless, the space problem in dorms is still an issue. Where do you put a desktop PC when you don`t even have space for a third bed!

It was coming...LUMS has finally reached the pivotal point where the management of infrastructure becomes critical to its reputation.
I hope your article draws sufficient concern to amend the quality at LUMS .

Mantolives, `hey spastic` to Kaul from me...

Despite it`s claims to support the less priviledged classes it still seems to welcome the elite only. Is this it`s way to `maintain the standard` by discouraging the ones who are not able to spend that much money for a two year course in the institution and thus keeping their noses high by giving itself the `hard to get` look, thus increasing its value? I`ve been thinking about enrolling myself in the MBA programme next year since I`m almost done with my engineering, but now feel that going for an MSc specialization in my field of study would be a much better option and worth the money.

$12K is the total fee for both years of MBA.

Still damn expensive. One reason- heck the only reason - I chose to not accept their offer of admission.

SR:

I need to steal some more books from you. How has Karachi Stock Exchange been treating you?

38:temporal

That was good.

JudeEaton, the poacher, has not met some real Pakistanis. The rag tft is a reflection of the editor it picks.

But then in the boot-licking community of crowswans nothing is demeaning or dishonourable. Cocacolonised and Mcbuggered crowswans shamelessly wiggle,wobble & waddle their bums & bumpers.

LUMS is hardly a slum ofcourse.... the campus looks like such a fun place to be with all the dating, hanging out, partying going on in and around LUMS...

However the author is spot on with the conclusions on academic standards...

LUMS transforms to SLUM

Why is it surprising at all? No institution thrives (or decays) in isolation. What you describe at LUMS is simply a reflection of what goes on in the society at large. What seems remarkable and worthy of credit is that it didn`t get much worse much earlier. On a relative scale, I`m sure SLUM still shines like a bright star. As Urstruly`s points out, in The Country of the Blind the one-eyed is still king.

One of the two biggest problems of Pakistan is over population (the other biggie is fresh water shortage). The growth rate is higher than all the other top population countries. China, India, Russia, US, Bangladesh and Indonesia may have a larger total polulation but the Paki growth rate is higher than all of them. Only countries like Afghanistan, Oman, Kenya and Saudi Arabia (all fairly small populations) have higher growth rates. During the 1980s when Zina-ul-Haq cut off family planning funding the growth rate shot up to 3.2 which was highest in the world at the time (along with Afghanistan).

If current trend holds, by 2030 Pakistan will have the world`s THIRD LARGEST population (only after India and China). You`ll probably have five kids to a room then so why complain about three per room today?

...SR