LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

When people say that LUMS students have an attitude problem, well its totally true isn`t it! LUMS is good but like every institution it has its draw backs too. whether or not you admit it, what im saying is true! The losers that return from the US because they can`t cope with studies abroad might find it difficult to cope at LUMS too. be a little realistic and get off ur high horse for heaven`s sake!!

//razz: As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan//

That`s hilarious. That`s your best shot at me for pointing out some faults in your university? If this is your attitude, then everything I have said stands validated. Cheers!

#130 by Trekker

Granted. It`s not an exponential growth, but still a disconcerting attempt to make things bigger continuously.

``increasing the class size ... has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). ``

I agree. I don`t think that`s what`s been happening though. Incremental drops in quality due to small increases in class size without a corresponding change in the facilities will eventually have an undersiable cumulative effect. I believe it`s time to pay heed to this.

You mentioned the politics associated with Dr. Shah, and then there`s that entire Dr. Azhar episode that wasn`t touched upon. I`m not sure what the truth is (like I said, we`ll probably never know for sure) but there have been constant allusions in what I`ve heard to the fact that things weren`t working out between him and the rest of the administration (and that there were a fair deal of personal biases involved). Quite unfortunate if you ask me.

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

#133 by zird

``not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ?``

Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. If that`s the stuff competition is made of, then one wonders what the overall level of the students is. Moroever, it`s a simple fact: when you get larger, you can`t admit students who are that qualified any longer.

``some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues. ``

Just how much is this ``some``. Please enlighten us as to what percentage of people in each class end up at Ivy league schools. I think the number is a lot smaller than what it`s made out to be. I`d like to see some stats.

``comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised``

Point conceded. Compared to universities in other developing countries, LUMS is probably pretty good. Just that it`s hard for me to readily buy the fact that it`s the out and out best around, or, more ludicrously (as Tayyab mentioned):

``udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world.``

Now that is clearly not true. I don`t know how you guys can seriously believe that. LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking.

As I wrote to HisExcellency, I`m sure LUMS can inshallah become a great place. Just that they need to get their feet firmly planted on the ground first.

#132 by TayyabBalagam

You lost me at:

``But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world``

Anyone who truly believes such ``undeniable`` facts, is perhaps beyond reproach. I just hope that others who`re associated with LUMS are capable of more realistic self-assessment.

#123 and 129 Hassan Shah

``but there just isn`t enough competition these days at LUMS. Places like MIT, Stanford, Princeton etc. share one thing in common; lots of very qualified students pushing each other to perform better. ``

not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ? LUMS is one of the most competitive places there is, and i think eventually it depends on your nature, but for most of us it really helped us learn to work under pressure and compete with some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues.

When i mentioned lacked of competition, it was not enough competition for lums - since there aren`t many institutions at par with lums in pakistan (not many, i didn`t say none).

Hassan as for whether you are a lums rejectee or studied abroad..it doesn`t really matter. I agree with you that lums may not be all that it is touted for, but it is pretty good, given resource constraints - esp. the lack of qualified phd`s. Coming from Pakistan, and comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised with the good foundations i received at lums. Tayyab also mentions this - lums did give us the extra edge when we went for graduate degrees. I did notice certain shortcomings and so did some of the other lums grads and i`m pleased to know that they did incorporate many of our suggestions by designing new courses or altering existing courses.

Although i must commend you Bilal on your candid and frank assessment of the current state of affairs at LUMS, i must also say that unfortunately you too have succumbed to the traits of a quintessential Pakistani. The current traits of any Pakistani denizen include foremost impatience. We, in pakistan need results immediately and cynicism comes as normally to us as eating food is to other humans.

I graduated from Lums BSC program in 1999 and at that time I agree that there were not many students. But indeed the facilities at that time were also in their nascent stage and were being developed.

Today, LUMS has more facilities yet it also has more students. But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world. And after having done a Bachelors degree from LUMS, a Masters degree from University of Texas at Austin was a piece of cake for me.

Please try to understand that we are a developing nation. There is limited financing available to LUMS also and it is this limited financing which needs to be channeled towards development of facilities and infrastructure at LUMS. If the LUMS administration were to shove three people into a room and say that this is it and u gotta live with it, then it would be rather unfair. But since they have already exhibited their commitment towards developing new hostel facilities, i feel that only a little bit of patience is required before you will get what you want.

Be optimistic rather than being cynical and reeking of pessimism. In a country where literacy is already excessively low, we must commend LUMS and its administration for having been committed to their goal of providing education and quality education at that consistently for almost the past two decades. We should commend them rather than being cry babies about trivial faults. No one is denying that faults do not exist at LUMS......there are many but in a broader perspective LUMS is undeniably the best educational institution in pakistan and the positives by far outweigh the negatives.

In addition, if you do not like the place, you have a choice of leaving it. Just like i use the cliche when speaking to our cynical Pakistani brothers that, ``Love Pakistan or leave it!``, i must say that the same applies to LUMS and you i.e., ``Leave LUMS or leave it.`` And perhaps by leaving LUMS, you would also be espousing some element of your pseudo intellectual freedom of expression (now now am i being a cynic or what :) )

All in all, LUMS is a renowned institution and the people over there are committed towards imparting high quality education. The infrastructure is bound to be developed....all that is required is patience and appreciation of all the positive things that do happen. Good luck to you Bilal and may you graduate from LUMS which provides one of the best degrees in the world, at times even better than that of internationally renowned universities!!

HassanShan #129

I completely agree that resting on past achievements is the worst thing that can happen and hopefully the admin and faculty are aware of that. There can be mixed opinions about increasing the class size -- it has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). Let`s take a look at the approximate undergrad class intake at LUMS:

Class of 1997: 65 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1998: 80 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1999: 120 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences)
Class of 2000/1: 150 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2002: 190 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2003: 240
.....
Class of 2007: 400 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math, Accounting/Finance, Law)

...this is by no means astronomical growth. If any chowk member can post details about the class/batch sizes at GIKI, NUST, FAST etc that would provide us with a good frame of reference.

Then there`s that other thing I mentioned. I don`t know how much truth there is in the rumours that I`ve been hearing (I doubt anyone can tell for sure) but I`ve been told that a couple of the professors at LUMS left because things didn`t work out between them and the administration

I can only say for sure that I know about Dr. Sohail Aslam because he told me himself. He wanted to get out in the field and practice software development rather than teach it. It was a personal decision. What I`ve heard about Dr Salman Shah was that he left after Dr Wasim Azhar was made the Dean and not him. Sort of like senior Corps Commanders resigning if a junior among them is made COAS. Again, a personal decision. Dr. Wasim Azhar was the dean/pro-VC for a decade and if he had issues with the admin ... well he WAS the admin the only ones above him in the LUMS org chart were Syed Babar Ali and Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf (or was it Tarrar at the time? Don`t remember exactly.... )

Trekker:

It seems that you have been trekking quite a bit, so you may have missed my point. So you are implying that LUMS, originally developed to attend to the intelle`k`tual needs of the business minded folks, should start focusing on technology related disciplines and follow MIT as a model ?

My earlier point was that starting a separate computer science program and other specific disciplines that may distract the focus is a redundant effort. Why not upgrade and extend the existing computer science programs at some older institutions and provide the faculty with better rewards? Why not have an equity investment there? The engg, science and technology universities existing in Pakistan(govt run) need to get a face lift along with the required makeup to look sexy like the private institutions. I am sure the private sector has the right cosmetics and formula that they can lend to the govt run institutions.

Lastly, rather than jumping to MIT to compare or consider as a model, why not look across the border and learn from them. Who is your audience and who are the stakeholders? 3rd world countries whether developed or on the road to development should not lose their vision and who they are. Point to ponder...

113:ZehraJ
Very good observations. Thanks.

This is a very good discussion board. Very informative and productive. Let us have more of such kind.
Pakistanis! chugg along, You`ve been steeled by graduating from the school of hard-knocks as well. More than anyone else in the world.

You are our real hope & joy.

#127 by HisExcellency

``none of these claims are baseless``

Perhaps it wasn`t clear what I was referring to. ``Claims`` is referencese to LUMS being in the league of other world-class institutions. I fully believe (though don`t care much for) the bit about the student to computer ratios etc. What I don`t agree with is the claim of LUMS being right up there with the best.

``The fact that LUMS students trounced IIT, CMU and several U.S. universities in the CSIDC contest (see Romair`s post #23), is ample proof that the difference between LUMS and other schools is not that huge. ``

I think that`s more what I was referring to. One contest. You guys draw way too much from these things. It`s like the Bangladeshis getting all excited after they beat Pakistan in `99. These things happen. Even if LUMS did thrash the living daylights out of CMU in the contest, I think no one ought to be fooled into thinking that the CS departments at both places are even remotely at par. I hope by ``other schools`` you meant something more reasonable.

``Of course it lags behind IIM Ahmedabad and 20 odd Asian B-schools. ``

Phew. Now that`s more like it. LUMS is 20th in Asia, and numerically, given that most of the good schools around the world are in US and Europe, that`s not a stunning performance.

Comparing business schools to medical schools is a big no-no ? I don`t think so. A good school is a good school. A mediocre one is just that. You don`t need a mapping function from MCAT to GMAT scores to say that much.

``Why am I optimistic about LUMS and not IBA? Simply because LUMS has more money at its disposal than IBA. As a result, LUMS can always reach down its pockets and afford good faculty and facilities. Deep pockets often make all the difference. ``

Yes ! I fully agree with that. I also believe that LUMS has the opportunity to take the lead over all the schools in Pakistan (save AKU perhaps) for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I also think (and hope inshallah) that LUMS can one day really be world-renowned. They have enough resources to provide the base for all that. I just don`t think that all this has happened quite yet and I think that the administration is delaying this promising future. I still think that it`s far more important to have a smaller student body, encourage competition, have a great faculty and provide students with excellent facilities. Making things bigger, is not necessarily making them better. A couple of people pointed this out earlier, and I touched upon this as well, but there just isn`t enough competition these days at LUMS. Places like MIT, Stanford, Princeton etc. share one thing in common; lots of very qualified students pushing each other to perform better. This just doesn`t happen at LUMS (and some of you have admitted to that already). I fully support the view that people learn most things at work. However, learning to thrive under pressure and succeed amongst qualified peers is what adds that extra edge to you when you venture forth into the workplace. Also, if you have a smaller student body, you can find enough fanstastic, well-qualified professors to teach them.

Then there`s that other thing I mentioned. I don`t know how much truth there is in the rumours that I`ve been hearing (I doubt anyone can tell for sure) but I`ve been told that a couple of the professors at LUMS left because things didn`t work out between them and the administration. If this is the case, I think that reflects quite poorly on the people running the place. Personal biases should be kept in check.

Also, I think overall there`s an impression of complacency associated with LUMS. I remember listening to Harsha Bhogle talk once on the telly (yeah, so I`m a cricket fanatic) and the thing that impressed me the most about him was this bit about never being satisfied with things because ``the day one thinks they`re good enough, they stop getting better``. I`ve met some of the members of the board of governors and a few of the other people involved in running LUMS in person at various conferences. There`s way too much self-adulation going around, sometimes to the extent that it`s not even reasonable (one would think they were churning out Nobel laureates by the dozen after listening to a few of them). Be realistic, keep your feet on the ground, and strive for the best. That`s my advice.

#123 by HassanShah

++
And then on this forum there`s all this talk about student-computer ratios, edging out CMU at some competition etc. In any case, I`m glab you have enough sense not to believe such baseless claims
++

FYI, none of these claims are baseless. I encourage you to visit the link posted by Romair (post #23). For your convenience, I am reproducing the link here again: http://www.lums.edu.pk/law_school.html

++
AKU is comparable but you get a much better education there AND medical degrees seem to be more expensive than others around the world
++

Hehe.. It seems like you have a crystal ball hidden in your closet. But seriously, how can you compare a medical school with a business school?? Its like comparing apples with oranges.

The criteria for med schools and business schools are not the same. Generally, quality of business schools is judged:

• student attributes (average GMAT score, average age, work experience)


• faculty attributes (industry experience, areas of expertise, qualifications, faculty size)


• campus attributes (# of classrooms, student/computer ratio, library, equipment, security, recreation facilities, housing facilities)


• institution attributes (reputation in market, years of operation, reputation abroad, affiliations, funding, scholarships)


• Teaching methods (case method vs. lecture method)

One of the distinctions between a Med school and Business school is that the former must be affiliated with a hospital where students can complete residency, etc. Business schools on the other hand, do not need to set up a corporation just to teach students how to run a corporation.

If you go through the general criteria above, LUMS is not that bad at all. Of course it lags behind IIM Ahmedabad and 20 odd Asian B-schools. The fact that LUMS students trounced IIT, CMU and several U.S. universities in the CSIDC contest (see Romair`s post #23), is ample proof that the difference between LUMS and other schools is not that huge.

Why am I optimistic about LUMS and not IBA? Simply because LUMS has more money at its disposal than IBA. As a result, LUMS can always reach down its pockets and afford good faculty and facilities. Deep pockets often make all the difference.

How many universities in Pakistan offer inexperienced teachers a salary of Rs. 1 lakh per month? At LUMS, the salaries of teachers are almost at par with industry levels.

Nevertheless, the faculty for undergrad classes is not as good as MBA programme. However, if you compare undergrad programmes around the world, you will realize that even this is not an issue. Not every Assistant Professor in UPenn undergrad school is an MIT graduate. Many get their degrees at mid-tier colleges and then teach undergrad classes to gain some experience. You don`t need super faculty for undergrad classes (especially during freshman and sophomore years).

Ideally, LUMS should recruit Ivy school graduates to teach undergrad courses. Traditionally, all university professors in U.S. colleges are PhDs. Initially when LUMS was small, it successfully implemented this guideline (i.e. only PhD-holders could teach classes at LUMS). However, once you expand the university... the extreme shortage of PhDs in Pakistan has become a biggest hurdle.

Finding PhDs is hard enough. Finding PhDs with Ivy school credentials is impossible. This is a problem perplexing all Pakistani institutions, even those who can afford to pay good salaries. It is not a management problem. It is a supply-side problem. (Incidentally LUMS has initiated a 3-year PhD programme with the express purpose of creating a domestic supply line; since hiring foreign PhDs is too expensive. Naturally this does not mean that suddenly a miracle will happen in the next year or so. LUMS intends on a long-term sustained strategy, not a knee-jerk one).

I hope this dispels your incorrect impression that the LUMS management is resting on its laurels.

Faisaluno #125: Thanks for the info.

I had a discussion with an ex-top BCCI guy, a year after the coup. I asked him about the financial future of Pakistan. He told me the following:

- Military govt. is taking the correct steps on finance
- Mullahs need to be kept away
- Local investors will stay out for four years, since the rules are changing (i.e control on bribery etc.)
- After four years, there will be a more level playing field, and they will come in

I think, in the end, more important that politicians, are the financial decision makers that are in place. Pakistan’s future will be decided more by the Shaukut Aziz’s and Hafeez Sheikhs, then by the Musharrafs and the Benazirs. The best thing any PM can do is to appoint the best and most honest people in these positions, and create an atmosphere where they can work independently, without any pressures. This is the first time in my lifetime, that I am seeing that happen.

BB and NS need to be kept away from Pakistan’s coffers. I am still curious to find out how much money BB and Zardari have in the 61 off-shore bank accounts they have in places like Virgin Islands etc. Leghari says its more than 1 billion. If one account in Switzerland had $12 million, I wonder how much money is in 61 accounts. 12 x 61 = 732 million. It is sad to see some educated people wanting her to come back, and rob Pakistan again, withouth having to face the courts. I guess one cannot blame her. Anyone would do the same, if they could rob a country and still have stupid people want them back in power.

Mullahs need to be kept away, because of their narrow-mindedness in economic affairs. Though, they tend to be quite a bit more honest than the BBs and NSs.

It seems like Arab money is coming into Pakistan. Maybe, Arabs are scared the Americans are going to freeze their accounts, or accuse them of financing violence. So they have to put their money somewhere. I think National and Habib are the only two govt. owned banks now (other than the Agricultural, Homebuilder finance type banks). I think National will be the only one the govt. holds on to. I wonder how big these banks would have been had Bhutto not nationalized them. Pakistan was into privatization 30 years ahead of India. Who know how big these industries had been, if they had remained in the private sector from 70 onwards......I think a few of them would have been Asian level players.

An area which I have always thought needs to be privatized are the defence industries. Having worked with them a bit, they are quite good and quite efficient. Pakistan is now jointly producing fighter aircraft with China. Not a small achievement. And has been doing maintenance work for Arab countries on very hi-tech military equipment for decades. A govt-private partnership in this area could prove very useful, since Arab countries want a lot of armament, and don’t want to be dependent on the Western monopoly.

romair:

until few year ago, cbr used to publish a list of top tax payers in pakistan. heading that list would always be the chief of citibank. in many cases however, multinationals illegally assume tax liability of their top 2-3 executives so that the money these executives earn is tax-free. i would estimate that top levels executives at these firms earn around rs. 1mn p.m.+ house and car.

as i mentioned before, salary increases (at all levels) in the private sector is going to be driven by increased hiring from local private and public sector corporates after these are privatized. and people buying these companies will be foreign investors largely arabs, europeans and s.e. asians in that order. i don’t see a dollar of american money coming to pak which in my opinion is a good thing. list of major investment that has taken place or is in the pipeline is as follows:

- ubl. bought by arab/british-asian investors
- hbl. will probably be bought by an arab conglomerate after a feeding frenzy
- ptcl. will probably be bought by orascom, egyptian phone utility which already owns paktel, and is in the process of doubling its investment in paktel.
- pso (jewel in the crown). no idea who the buyer will be
- ogdc (very valuable asset). no idea who the buyer will be
- liberty power. tenaga (malaysian utility) is in the process of doubling its investments
- british telecom. will enter the market with local partner

we will see a real momentum in pak if these transactions are executed in the next couple of years without a hitch. challenge as always will be political rather than economic. benazir and the mullahs cannot be allowed anywhere near the finance ministry. keep your fingers crossed.