LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

IQRA UNIVERSITY IS THE WAY TO GO -

Come on...

You're talking about the number one management school in Pakistan.

being realistic NUST is a military university, its true they are prejudiced. IBA is semi-govt, they have that mentality too. LUMS is another extreme, most grads from LUMS simply dont fit in later. what all of these schools are doing is increasing their intake every year. IBA`s BCS is total unnecessary. LUMS` chsool of social sciences and mathematics is a burden on job market. the only motive of these unis is money making. many programs in these institutes have no scope in this country. LUMS is much better than any other uni as fas as image management is concerned. if its not fruitful today, it will surely be in near future. grads from both IBA n LUMS get good jobs. IBA`s BBAs are far better than LUMS` BScs. and even if someone claims its not so, still theres no point in paying 5 to 6 times more money for same result. no doubt LUMS` MBA prog is kickass. as such there is no competition as yet between the two schools. both have difff job markets. an IBA grad`s strongest competitors are his own batch mates. same goes for LUMS.

apparently IBA is not cutting into to LUMS` job market and LUMS is not doing that to IBA either. whoever wants a worthy job gets is. and even if they sometimes do which i say they dont, theyre not the only two players. think of it, the trade marketing dept head in PTC is a Greenwich grad!! their HR executive is an ex-PAF personnel and their HR manager is a ``dumb blonde`` MBA from NUST. Thats PTC - the BAT group multinational!!

so i dont think its wise to compare unis on the basis of how many ppl share a room in hostel, or how many humanitis courses are being taught, or whether things are handled by students or admin and so on. if a big FMCG multinational hires u, its not because your school has made u the best, its because ur employer doesnt have much choice!!

believe me a preston grad with one year experience in a big bank or MNC is better than all the fresh grads of IBA and LUMS. while hiring ur employer knows that u dont know jack and he has to teach u everything. the only reason its YOU and not anyone else is because IBA, LUMS and NUST sound way sweeter than Preston, Hamdard and Bahria!!

oh and by the way i not from any of the schools mentioned above. my analysis is free from all prejudice.

I went to IBA, and then to various universities in the US. I still find IBA at par and even better than most US school. Eat your heart out LUMS.

It is not just fancy equipment that makes a school. IBA`s greatest assets are its students.

Bilal u are 100% right. waise bhi there is not much difference left . when comparing LUMS and LSE, Lahore.. and u all know, where LSE, Lahore. stands..

Basically the only real advantage `universities` like LUMS, IBA, GIK, UET, NED provide to their students is that they are generally more well recognised abroad, an advantage for those who want to study for their masters outside the country, and of course, because of their exclusivity here you can expect more students to get jobs.

Mind you, I still dont think that all the above institutions even classify as proper universities. Almost all the educational institutions in Pakistan are schools- mostly business schools, computing schools, engineering schools, medical schools and a few art schools. Thats it. The only three places (PU, KU and GCL) which offer a broader range of disciplines, including those in the humanities, social sciences and fine arts, follow antiquated courses, their systems being rigid and the campuses underequipped and lacking good staff and administration. It is also surprising that these and the two really good art schools in the country, NCA and IVS, have almost no international recognition, and are incredibly underrated here.

So many of our really talented students really have no choice when it comes to going to university. Its either go to one of the former few top places to do something you don`t want to do, although it most certainly will get you a job or at least a place to do masters from abroad, or end up studying the subject of your choice under the most miserable circumstances and almost no hope of a secure future. Thus it is that so many talented students who wanted to do their bachelors in say, Sociology, or Political Science, or English Lit, or Comms Design are found wasting their time and talent at a myriad of both elite and not so elite `schools`.

We really need to develop and market our few `real` universities, and otherwise expand our horizons in terms of the choices we give our frustrated youth.

well well well...IBA this and IBA that....frankly my friends i am not in the least bit amused by IBA nor its so called ``prestige``..I do recognise and respect that it is a good University but the maturity of the students is a different matter, as can be seen by the patriotic rhetoric without any sound reasoning .LUMS may have its faults but to deny it the recognition and respect that it surely deserves and to reduce it to the level of other Universities is nothing more than a travesty of standards. LUMS has the best MBA degree in all of the country and its market value is very high indeed. I am not just sayin what i please but bare facts; my own sister was a LUMS graduate and she was offered a vocation by Arthur Anderson which is was at that time one of the most reputed organisations known. Her first job in Pakistan was at a STARTING salary of Rs 60,000. I think this ONE example is enough to dispel any apprehentions about sending ones children to this instiution.

Furthermore my first year at LUMS has been remarkable and despite some of the TEMPORARY constraints, i have learned more about my abilites and limits than can possibly be imagined. The faculty is world class with teachers from Harvard, princeton etc. Setting all this aside LUMS has been bold enough to introduce cutting edge law programmes and initiating an engineering department.

Yes the triple occupancy is the situation prevailing at present but that is to be corrected within this year as the new hostel is nearing completion. Also the story of hostelites not having door knobs and basic essentials is pure rubbish as i am from the batch of 2007 and i can account for the fact that we were accorded all the privilages and luxuries that we recieved at home. There is no truth in that particular tale.

I just wanted to clear these matters up as i believe that bashing an institution just for the sake of gaining some cheap points for ones own University is really immature. I hope no one minds this posting but i respect all other Universities but can not stand by to see mine disrespected.

i was a student of mechanical engineering in college of EME, NUST for three semesters and then i left NUST and came to IBA. the biggest problem that NUST had was they treat the civilians like commissioned cadets too, there are restrictions in NUST, yes. the authorities are very rigid. as a hostelite you cant go out of campus after 10pm, and that too with the written permission of company commander. there was prejudice in NUST. once a civilian does something wrong, hes in for it, but incase of a technical cadet, they wont let anyone know what happened, all the fees that theyre collecting from NUSTians theyre spending on teh Cadets, so there was lots of controversy on these issues.
but theres anotehr side to the picture as well, NUST doubtlessly has the better faculty by far than any otehr institute in the country. i dont know whats teh sourse of ijaz_guls statistics of a student teacher ration of 1-80, its totally incorrect. Let me make one thing clear that EME, MCS, MCE etc are not colleges or universities, these are basically military units. the mechanical, solar and electronic labs, the workshops (automobile, woodworking, welding etc) are all superior to labs in any other institute. they have teh highly skilled staff, and believe me they`re making a good use of it. yes, theres this scarf, dupatta culture, but then male to female ratio is something like one to humdred. what else do u expect to happen.
then theres iba. fortunately theres no such restrictions in iba, hostel is free of any authorities, all departments are under students, no study timings, no dress code ect.
There can absolutely be no comparison between NUST and LUMS or IBA, NUST is a military institute, u cant expect it to be like IBA or LUMS, there has to be all those restrictions and thats understandable.
By the way what extraordinary have LUMS graduates and students achieved living in that ``sans restrictions`` environment? IBA offers more professionalism, all departments such as accounts, hostel management, auditing, sports, conferences, publications, etc are under students. IBA has a much better job market than LUMS, not only in Karachi but all over the country. And thats the reason why i chose IBA over LUMS, it`ll take time for LUMS to get anywhere near IBA, ages i believe!

Please refer to # 172
WHAT ABOUT NUST.

i heard this stuff about LUMS from alot of people who study there. It is pretty sad. I hope the administration will make the due changes sooner than later.

I am extremely sorry to disappoint you, but you couldn`t be farther away from the correct interpretation of the text.

By no means, I was comparing LUMS to IBA... and even if I do, I`d rate it much higher than IBA. This is not because of any bias that I have but due to many reasons.

All the other institutions in Pakistan (besides LUMS) treat you like a bunch of kids, imposing restrictions on you like attendacne, campus timings, hostel timings, what to wear, what not to wear. LUMS is the only place where you can seriously experience the diversity and tolerance- diversity especially in terms of intellectual discourse.

LUMS was the ONLY university in Pakistan that has a somewhat respectable Liberal Arts programme, latest addition being the Beaconhouse National University. Although it is nowhere compared to the world standards, but it is a bold initiative anyhow. What this does is that it enriches and broadens your persective, so that you aren`t just another Bachelor who only knows how to administer business or how to work with a computer. In IBA there are just 12 courses in humanities. In LUMS the number is 5 to 6 times the above.

I don`t want to go into the details of the job prospects because a. it bores me; and b. we all know the truths.

Facilities at LUMS are great. And everyone at LUMS used to enjoy the `LUMS experience`.. the article`s basically about the frustration of students over the current steps taken by the LUMS administration.

Hope I`ve made it clear enough.

Bilal

After reading that article about LUMS i must say its really about time!!! Its about time that someone had the guts to uncover the bitter truth that is LUMS! It is about time that some person has had the guts to actually tell us where the annual fees of 3 lacs is being wasted...

I am an IBA student and am from Islamabad. When I came to Karachi people were rather surprised that i had given IBA preference over LUMS. I now end my silence and explain why:

1. LUMS costs 3 lacs annuallly ( which comes to 12 lacs for 4 yrs) and you dont have a guaranteed job when u graduate. When u come out of IBA u have payed 2 lacs for four years and u have a comparitive advantage over LUMS graduates in the industry.

2. IBA has a 46 yr old reputation of producing excellence in the form of academic achievers time and time again.

3. It sets standards of excellence in areas of professionalism, focus and proactiveness in the Pakistani industry.

4. The actual exposure that IBAians get from the industry is undisputably the most in any degree in Pakistan.

5. IBA students are taught to be independent. I am currently in the third semester of my BBA and am Mashallah handling sponsership funds of 30 lacs for an upcoming international investment conference in January.

6. The IBA alumni regularly visit the institute to help graduating batches with jobs and give them a feel for the industry.

7. IBA students are taught not to sell themselves short. I know atleast 5 LUMS grads teaching as school teacher in Alevel colleges in Karachi and as call center operators. Is that what their teaching the kids there? Money , money and more money? Has the pursuit for materialistic goods become so important that students come out with a BSc. Hons in Computer science degree and become school teachers and telephone operators just because they are paying them well? Whatever happened to self respect?

8. I am relieved that i dont have to live in the crazy and expensive enviroment that LUMS personifies. IBA HOSTELITES have single rooms and have a cost effective messing facility with very good food and lodging conditions.

9. Last but not least, LUMS is increasing its batch every year. They actually think that it helps. The criteria to get into IBA is far tougher and only the cream of the academic arena get selected for studies at the IBA.I personally know 15 other friends who appeared both for SAT I, II and the IBA test. They all failed the IBA test. When my batch started three semesters ago we were a batch of 90. We now stand at 70 and are sure that by the time we graduate we will be around 50-60. Who do u think is gonna get the jobs?50 top quality grads or a batch of 400?

Ive given the arguments. You decide!!!

I feel you guys are being too harsh on LUMS. The decision taken to expand fast should also be appreciated. Agreed that facilities should also have been developed at an even faster pace.

Se thee thing in project management is that you have to compromise on at least of the three constraints: quality, time, and money. I guess management is doing the best it can to raise money. Time? Well, about recruiting more people for whom hostel would be constructed next year, imagine this. Majority of those would not have been able to join LUMS at all if this measure was not adopted! Yeah, after one year of relatively bad experience, things would turn out to be better. And its also an limited experience which might rather add to character. So quality, the third constraint, has suffered (temporarily as you say) in aspect of hostel and downloading speed. Well, all hell is not breaking loose.

Regarding student to teacher ratio, I think they`re trying to find new/more quality faculty. But I would not advocate improving the ratio by turning down admission applications.

As far as international rating of LUMS is concerned, its not just quality of education and graduates. The rating agencies also give weightage to number of schools, PHDs graduating, and research, etc. So as far as quality of LUMS graduates is concerned, they are equitable to National University of Singapore & Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. Obviously it also depends on person to person. IQ and EQ is not something that a University imparts!

#171 by lalib

Funny you mention that. I met a few people at college (foreigners from other countries) who sat through lectures without understanding the term ``kinetic energy`` till you tried explaining it to them. Then, they`d realise what was going on and substitute some word in their native tongue for it... Seems like what you mention is not a problem solely affecting Pakistan but is pretty common around the world.

I agree with you though. I think it`s time people stopped looking at a move to promote the ability to understand English as some kind of a complexed mindset. The bulk of the present-day knowledge that`s out there is in English and if learning the language is what it takes to acquire this knowledge, so be it. Translating all scientific works to Urdu is great and should be done if it promotes the spread of knowledge, but it just doesn`t scale well enough.

Well I have followed the discussions on LUMS. It is but characteristic of our expediency oriented mentality and ``all is well syndrome`` that very good institutions decay rather than evolve and grow. I have my comments on another national pride, ``The National University of Science and Technology``.

NUST WAS FORMED ON THE NUCLEUS OF MILITARY INSTITUTIONS. Therefore all its colleges bear a remarkable military sociology which cannot be grasped by a civilian called NUSTIAN. Like all military institutions, it is geared to first deeducate and then build a new individual fit to meets its corporate needs. Unfortunately, this proximity to military exclusiveism defeats the NUST objective of higher professional learning AND CREATIVITY.

THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE COLLEGES IS MEDIVIAL IN NATURE. Teacher student relationship is conspicuous by its absence. In any case the average size of the class is eighty students and too difficult to handle. By the time the semester ends, most teachers do not even remember the names of all the students.

THE SUBJECTS ARE TAUGHT IN LINE WITH THE DEMERITS AND NOT THE MERITS OF THE SEMSTER SYSTEM. The MARKING OF PAPERS is mostly done according to the precis and notes handed out by the teachers.Room for creativity is totally cramped as no dissenting knowledge, no matter how authentic and latest is acceted if it does not form part of the makedo precis and handouts. So most O and A level students begin with a severe handicap.
The culture of RATTA and superflous writing in the subjects of social sciences is the name of the game. At times the contempt of the teacher towards certain students specially O and A levels is distinct by penalising of marks.

GIRLS ARE TREATED AS IF THEY BELONG TO A MEDIVIAL PRIMORDIAL SOCIETY. The culture of scarfs, duppatta and covering limbs upto the ankles and wrists is strictly imposed. Girls from the O and A level streams are taken as softies, too westernised,easily approachable by males and hence vulnerable and exploitable. No matter how brilliant in past academics, they seldom do well. However the entire system works over time to bring them back to the national values.

LACK OF COMMITTED FACULTY. Due to the non congenial atmosphere, good faculty finds the place soffocating with non attractive financial packages. Given a choice, they move over to institutions that offer better economic incentives and initiative. NUST has made this deficiency by getting the services of Army Education Corps Officers. Most are the bottom of the barrel type, outdated but typically very commanding. They neither inspire nor show any trait towards updation. Many are far behind on latest scientific theories and outrightly reject querries raised by more progressive students. The art of survival therefore lies in `` to do as the romans do``.

DESPITE ALL THESE FIOBLES, THE NUST CONTINUES TO TAKE PRIDE IN ITS PRESTIGE. THE BIGGEST SYMBOL OF INERTIA AND NEPOTISM IS EFCOURSE THE RECTOR HIMSELF DULY SUPPORTED BY HIS TEAM OF PART TIME ACADEMICIANS; THE COMMANDANTS. IT REMAINS THE HOLY OF HOLIES

BY VIRTUE OF ITS CLOUT NUST FINDS A PLACE EVERWHERE. Academically it is on an unlearning curve.

man, hassan, theres no comparison between the o`/a` levels and the matric/fsc system. undoubtedly, there are smart people in the local system and they`ll retain their ``smarts`` throughout ... but the system is absolutely pathetic. a million reasons for this: lack of funds from the centre, outdated syllabi, corruption in exam boards etc. one could write a dissertation on this.

as for primary schooling, well, my only masla with most primary schools is that they don;t place enough emphasis on english. because thats the medium of instruction for most subjects (barring urdu), someone who doesn;t understand english will be unable to comprehend whats going on in science or social studies or even mathematics. its really quite sad. i`ve met some very smart children who suffer at schools because they can`t speak and understand english properly. and then a sense of inferiority may develop blah blah blah. distressing.

I d agree with bilal regarding mismanagement at lums.. As i see the full force of the newly inducted class of 2007.. it rarely seems like a university anymore rather a fish market... Though i agree that a greater number of students be inducted in each batch but consideration should be taken regarding providing and equippin the uni with more facilities.

The greater number of students causes problem in two departments
1. It leads to a killing of your own students job market...
2. With exponential increase of students and not even a linear increase of resources.. i fear a greater Malthusian struggle.

Lastly another thing the administration has really no concern on hearing the students regarding the issue.. so much for liberating students thought and representative model.. its all abt power politics..

Talking of the quality of education in Pakistan, another article of interest is on the Textile Institute of Pakistan, ``Pakistan`s ``Intellectual Rubble:`` Learning the Hard Way`` at http://quack.offroadpakistan.com/opinion/
pakistans_intellectual_rubble_learning_the_hard_way.html

HassanShan #167

I did my matric and FSc (GC Lahore). My primary school (class 5) was a federal public school in Bannu, NWFP where we often sat on the floor on ``taats``. I can confidently say that our school system resulting in the Matric and FSc certificates is better than the average American high school diploma -- but the curriculum lags behind when compared to O/A Levels. But then again, many of my classfellows at LUMS were from A Levels background and I did not feel that I was at a disadvantage -- save for Calculus I.

#166 by lalib

Actually, I must apologise for veering off the topic. My last three posts focus almost exclusively on responding to some of the points Raza was trying to make and have little to do with LUMS.

In any case, at the expense of replacing one digression with another, given that there seems to be a temporary lull in the discussion on LUMS, I was curious as to what other people thought of our primary education sector. Since those of you who went to college in Pakistan are bound to have interacted with students from other schools, I was wondering if you had any opinions regarding how the Matric/Inter system stacks up against O/A levels.

raza, hassan. you guys lost me along the way, totally. what are you arguing about?!?! and raza, what the hell are you thinking?!?! writing?!?! apnay hi paoon par kulhari wala scene hai ...

#164 by razzz

Hilarious. One points out something to which you have no response and you resort to the old ``it doesn`t matter what you think`` routine. Given that this is the second time you`ve clutched at that straw, I`m beginning to think that the only opinions you respect are the ones that seem to mirror your own.

Oh and yes. My last two posts had little to do with LUMS and focussed primarily on pointing out the flaws in your logic and disabusing you of the notion that Cornell took you in because you were some spectacularly overachieving student with stupendous SAT scores. I would have assumed the disclaimer:

``The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye`` (#145)

might have given this fact away, but I guess my expectations of others are undeservedly high. In any case, since you`ve chosen (wisely) not to proceed further along the ``I was admitted to Cornell but still got an average GPA at LUMS so ...`` path and are striving hard to extricate yourself from the mess by redirecting the discussion back to other things, I shall take it as an indication that the points I wanted to make have finally sunk in.

Coming now to your hastily typed mail, there are a few things I`d like to say. I find the theory you proposed quite charming, though well along the lines of the other claims you`ve made. I really don`t understand why you think all criticism stems from being complexed, jilted, jealous etc. You really need to be more mature about these things. This is, after all, a discussion forum. One of the key ideas about a discussion forum is to talk about things, to examine what opinions other people hold and to reflect upon them. Some of the views might (according to you) be illogical, founded on untrue claims and not convincing, in which case you are entitled to correct them, but simply dismissing beliefs outright as ``complexes`` or being borne out of some ``hard to digest`` fact hints at an insular outlook.

For the record, once again, I have nothing to do with LUMS. Wasn`t rejected there and certainly wasn`t edged out by some brilliant individual like yourself for a job. So please don`t make it sound as if anyone who has any comments about the place does so because of deep-seated resentment. I also find your claim that:

``students from LUMS ... it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students ... [which] is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent ``

nothing short of an inane conspiracy theory. I doubt that Ivy-league graduates are simply languishing away in Pakistan without finding employment while all and sundry are busy rolling out red carpets for those from LUMS. Moreover, I would also be quite chary of accusing foreign grads of being so incredibly petty and bitter as to collectively propagate vicious slurs about the people at LUMS simply if they are willing to work for less. I have no desire to delve into the arrogance-related discussions, but I will say this much : they have been around since well before 9/11, so it`s ridiculous to claim they`re something ``new`` and attribute them to the phenomenon you described.

I hope you`ll take some time to read (and to think about) what I write before jumping to respond with an angry word here and an ill-thought out claim there.

re : hassan

I again have to repeat that it hardly matters what kind of views ill informed people like you have about lums so take a chill pill and instead of focusing on sentences over here try to check out the bigger picture which it seems is beyond you. The basic problem it seems over here is that after 9/11 a lot of the foriegn qualified students dont get jobs in usa and have to come back to pakistan to look for work, and when they do that they face a lot of competition with students from LUMS who it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students because first of all LUMS students are known for their skills and hard work and they are willing to work for less compared to their foriegn counterparts. This is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent etc. As i said earlier....taking an already brilliant student and getting good results of him/her can hardly be called as doing amazing stuff.......which is one of the CORE advantages IVY leagues have. So try to rise above urself and get rid of ur complexes.

cheers
raza

Too many people, even more opinions and a rather endless argument. Bilal is an ultra-democratic person who would even sue the government if his rights aren’t delivered at doorstep overnight. And well, as loud and clear his account is, he has received substantial acknowledgement. But people this is a very magnified version of problems that do arise in universities everywhere! If you look at the Punjab University, NCA, Karachi University, IBA or UET, LUMS is seriously a baby university. The B.Sc. program is hardly 10 years old. The new campus, perhaps not even that old. Considering this, I think LUMS is making a remarkable progress and the only institution in Pakistan that challenges it for the top slot, by and large, is the prestigious Aga Khan University. And well if you even try to compare LUMS with American or European universities, that will show how disregardful your observation is. Most well-established American universities are at least twice as old as Pakistan and institutions like Hardvard and Cambridge (U.K.) are more than six times as old as Pakistan. Legacy is a significant factor required in order to excel. Trial-and-error and collapse-and-recovery are cumulative processes that eventually lead to a healthy system, may it be human physiology or an administrative body. I believe we are unfortunate that we have to bear these “troubles of initial phases” of a grand-institution-in-the-making, but I also sincerely believe that we will be among the fortunate few who would proudly sing our alma mater 20 or 30 years down the road.

Inayatullah in todays The News International



``Striking indeed is the news of a visiting team from abroad finding that ``obsolete`` IT syllabi was being taught in Pakistan. This finding is based on the team’s visit to some of the leading universities where even the top students will have to be retrained, for them, to understand state-of-the-art information technology developed by such leading firms a Samsung, IBM and Nokia.``

And yet we say we are as good as MIT Stanford etc!

# 149 by Sobia

``A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right``


huh? i think ppl who did so (on this thread), did qualify their statements...honey, no-one is comparing lums to a foreign uni - in fact the point of contention is whether its the best place in pakistan, currently.

I guess since we have been branded as arrogant...and it seems that there`s no escaping the label....i`ll have to agree with the grand and infallible statement.

Way to go Hasan:P
Khair...
I agree when people say that Luminites are arrogant. And even when one says that a large number of the people coming to LUMS are from the elite of Pakistan. But personally I was surprised by the diverse mix of people of people from different backgrounds of the Pakistani society at LUMS and how easily they were able to adjust. And as far as the fees are concerned, I agree that LUMS is expensive for a university in Pakistan but i compliment the LUMS administration on their financial aid program. The amount of aid might seem like peanuts as compared to the universities in states, but it is a start never the less and something which is to be encouraged. I know a great many people who can`t afford to pay the entire LUMS fee, but who are currently studying there because of a mix of scholarships, loans, and grants.
Another thing that I noticed after studying in an American university and meeting people from different various universities is that in LUMS the competition is sky high. When a Luminite transfers to a university in states there GPA seems to jump up by at least 0.5. It seems that the competition in LUMS pushes you to work harder. And I am not just talking about some second tier university in states. At LUMS I found people who rejected offers from the Ivy Leagues to stay at LUMS. The post 11th September scenario has further strengthened that trend. But whatever the reason the level of competition has gone up at least in the 2006 batch.
And I am in no way comparing LUMS to any Ivy League university! :P
As for the fiasco in the dorms, some universities even in The States have faced similar situations. Last year Boston University was faced with a similar problem, as a much higher then expected percentage of the incoming batch wanted to live on-campus, and to accommodate them all the university bought an entire hotel in Boston! I think i can forgive LUMS for the temporary chaotic setup.
My own personal view is that a larger number of people are applying to LUMS due to the post 11th September scenario and the uncertainty about the US visa process. So instead of criticizing them I applaud them for catering to the increase in the number of students who want to study at LUMS, instead if just refusing those students. And I hope that they are able to increase the available student resources and to maintain the standard that they have set.
Good Luck!

P.S: Aur sunao JESTER hows LUMS these days:P?

I head out for the weekend and I come back to millions of posts. There`s a whole lot of arrogance-related stuff, which, as I mentioned earlier, I don`t care much for, but the following did grab my attention:

``Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities.``

I`ve already said as much. Your support is greatly appreciated.

``In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...``

Your SAT II scores were better than your SAT I scores ? You know what, I regret my brashness (and please do not take this personally) but I must point out that a 720 in Math IIC is fairly ordinary. 740 in Math IC is a bit better, but nothing extraordinary. The allusion that Cornell was overawed by your SAT I and SAT II scores (mediocre at best) is way off the mark and I think the ``because`` in your statement above should only have been followed by the ``my parents could easily have afforded it`` bit. Whether you choose to accept reality or not, I think your admission had more to do with the fact that your parents could easily afford to dole out all that money than the statistics you present (unless you`re hiding more relevant details, e.g., an Olympic medal, relation to some political figure etc.)

And yes, please don`t disparage the above as an attempt to fault your linguistic competence. You`re rattling on about your superlative SAT I and II scores to claim that you were good enough to get into a great college and making all kinds of inferences based on that. All I`m saying is that you`re rich enough to get into a great college, and your average GPA doesn`t amount to anything other than a measure of your performance at LUMS.

``so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions.``

Umm... I said your SAT I score was nothing special, and your SAT II scores are (dare I say it) even less impressive. I said that it was unlikely you would have got in had you been an international student asking for aid, and I still maintain that.

``Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA``

Again, the ``I`` seems to be a critical part of your reasoning. That`s what I talked about earlier; you`re founding illogical arguments on a subjective assessment of your abilities. Did you ever think about starting out with your average GPA and reasoning in reverse ?

``so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s``

SO lets not give ... Amazing. You mention that you get an average GPA and then this ``SO`` ties it up with not giving GPAs much weightage.

``and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities``

It`s not a fictitious belief. American universitites (at least the Ivies etc.) are fairly good and ``amazing``.

``we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.``

Again, deductions based on the capabilities of a single individual. Call my beliefs hearsay, but at least they follow from personal interactions with the people running LUMS, teaching at LUMS, my siblings who got their degrees there, their friends and my own friends at the place (not to mention all the people I met on the campus during my countless visits there), not all of whom would be lying, exaggerating etc. However, I think at least I`m not guilty of extrapolating single observations and subjective individual-assessments into a string of arguments like you`ve done on more than one occasion.

Ligthen up. If you get the impression that I`m leading some kind of mass-campaign to shut LUMS down, I apologise for having come across like that. I think it`s a decent place, but could be much better. I also think that it`s not all that it`s made out to be and in order to improve, the people at LUMS need to take a realistic view of things into account.

tayyab,

1) i think i explicitly said ``of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat``.
this does not imply that everyone and anyone from these `elite` schools is arrogant. i don`t see how this sentence can even convey that ... if it does somehow manage to imply that ``everyone and anyone`` from these elite schools is arrogant, i`d like it understood that that was not what i meant.

2) yes, lums is an elite school. i don;t see many students from the low-income cadre. exceptions abound, but let`s face it, by pakistani standards lums/giki/akuh are pretty elitist. the average pakistani can only dream of such a place.

3)i used elite and elitist interchangably in the last point, although i realise the difference. it just so happens that in pakistan, as elsewhere, they often tend to be the same.
of course, there are elite schools that aren`t elitist such as cadet college hasan abdal. there are elitist schools that aren;t elite ... i shouldn`t take names:) .... then there are school that combine the properties of both: Exclusivity and Distinctiveness. prime examples are aitchison and kgs. lums lags far far far behind in this list. i MEAN far.

we can continue to argue over little details and how i mis-implied something but i hope you get my drift ...

4) and my argument was meant to exonerate the arrogance of lums students. i said that the blame for that should be distributed amongst the many feeder-schools in the country. students from these schools and from a certain background are likely to be arrogant. even in amreeka. yes, tayyab, it does mean that amreeki unis have their fair share of arrogant, spoilt, conceited pakis.

i do think that it was a flaky argument (i even implicitly acknowledged it as such) that could be shot down a million times over but it was just an argument that was meant to question the sweeping statement that lums breeds arrogance. despite it`s weakness, it at least serves it function.

regards

Ok lets analyze ur misgivings about lums and my prev post one by one.First of all i and almost any luminite would be open to any consrtuctive criticism and i repeat constructive criticism coming from (an informed person not any tom dick n harry out there) who has never been to lums but thinks that it is his/her right to blast lums for no reason at all. Lums has its share of faults but we need to go over them in a logical manner not just shoot volleys in the dark as a certain lady has been doing.

I dont know about you people but i dont think calling luminites as arrogant and haughty is considered constructive criticism by any intelligent person(discounting ONE genius over here) specially when you know the university doesnt play any part in that. I was in the univ for four years but i dont recall any course on arrogance being taught over there nor i can imagine arif zaman or wasim azhar teaching us to be very proud of ourselves and think of us as one step above others. Plus everyone knows its a relative term and can not be generalized for the whole student body of lums or any other university.

Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities. In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions. Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities because we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.

As for the continous harping about lums taking in a much larger batch for BSC well lets carefully analyze that shall we. First of all you have to realize that Pakistan is a very popolous country with very few universities available to students let alone GOOD universities. So most of the student body over here doesnt even have to access to good education. Thus expansion and providing better education to a greater number of people should be the aim of every good university. Any problems with that ?

Now you would argue that quality should be mantained.....well as far as i know LUMS is trying its best to keep up the quality..and succeeding to some extent as well. Sure there are problems with the accomadation facilities but they will go away with time as new hostels are already being planned. Furthermore we have to realize that the Hundred (supposedly extra i.e. 400 instead of 300 or 250 ) students which are being taken by the university dont lag that much behind the first couple of hundred students which were taken by lums previously and those who do lag behind are shunted out( sorry for using this word over here) by the relative grading system being used by LUMS. An example would be that the original strength of my batch was 202 and by the time we graduated that had reduced to 144. That alone is reflective of how quality is mantained in lums. Plus we also need to look into the fact that after 9/11 a lot of students which otherwise would have gone to USA are now applying to lums instead of going abroad. Lums also has to cater to them now. I cant seem to understand why people are so bent upon making an elitist insitituion out of lums and want it to remain confined to teaching a few selected no of students.

Apart from this those of you who cant even think of comparing LUMS to the top american schools also need to look into the fact that teaching brilliant students is a lot different from bringing out the best from an average student. Top schools like Harvard, Stanford and Wharton get the cream of students from all over the world ....and in my personal opinion they dont perform any miracle when they convert these already brilliant students into exceptionally talented managers and professionals. In my view a job well done is taking an average student and making an accomplished professional out of him. In my view the LUMS bsc program does that to a little extent (i wont actually call it a miracle but atleast a good attempt) by having the quarter system instead of the semester system because it makes one more used to pressure situations and tough work loads which compensates for that brilliance exuded by the top american students to some extent.


cheers
raza

`` firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make``

Hey Lalib,
i dunno whether i know u but just a small question........your statement appears to imply that anyone and everyone who goes to Alevels is part of the elite and anyone and everyone who does his A levels is bound to be haughty and arrogant..........interesting......about half the people who do their A levels tend to go abroad......does that mean that American universities are full of Arrogant Pakis :)........and i guess some A Levels students also go to IBA and CBM etc ....that probably exonerates LUMS graduates from the allegation of being arrogant since according to your argument, arrogance is then prevalent across all educational institutions in Pakistan.

All i can say is gimme a break yaar.........sometimes i wish that us Pakistanis were arrogant and proud enough to get our country out of the mess we currently are in due to the continual decadence in our society.

And what exactly is your definition of an elite school..........the current imbalance in fee structures probably implies that all schools and universities, including LUMS are elitist.......using that argument what does that make you also........a product of an elitist university eh :):)

My friend, Lalib, Its time we let the horses free and let them venture onto their own stables according to their own desires :):)

Adios

rozy, i think you rock..everyone else fades away :P

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

I completely agree.......everyone must appreciate criticism and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I also agree i should not have written that undeniably LUMS Is amongst the top universities in the world....i think i meant top universities in Asia............i hope this was not mistaken as arrogance...i guess `world` was written in the heat of the moment instead of `Asia`.

I am the first to admit that LUMS has its flaws and thats what i wrote in my earlier posting also. However, it is my opinion(with which of course anyone can differ) that the positives given the current educational structure in Pakistan by far outweigh the negatives.

Also, i feel that if you have not been to LUMS and have not studied at LUMS, jumping to conclusions about the standard of education there is a bit unfair. Once u have been through the LUMS experience, only then do you realize what a blessing the years spent over there are.

Also, with regard to whether Lums graduates are arrogant etc, i feel that too you cannot generalize because that is a trait that can vary from person to person and from institution to institution. People say the same about Aitchison graduates and about Karachi Grammar graduates but one has to look at that on a specific basis rather than on a general level.


Anyways, Zird if you are from BSC 99, email me at juxtapose99@hotmail.com

Adios

Sobia, do you think LUMS students are arrogant?

well said bilal. over the past few years, most lums alumni have noticed a downward trend in quality. quality of students, quality of faculty and quality of services provided. i`d like to believe that this is temporary, an effect that can be squarely pegged to the transition from a fledgling college to a proper university ... but i don`t know how true it is. i`m hoping though.

i can be cynical and argue that from what we`ve seen of most things in pakistan, quality is a temporary phenomenon. in that light, lums built up its rep and is now earning dividends. and the more the students, the greater the profit.
(let`s make note of one thing here. its not the b.sc. program at lums that ranks #23 in asia, its the mba program. those who`ve been at lums will agree that these are effectively two separate instituions with minimal interaction. and its not the mba faculty or students that have faced this downward trend in quality. lums is still very selective about who it takes into the mba, the faculty is still very well educated, and i presume the mba`s still have their own separate computer labs, hostels etc. so in that light, perhaps the b.sc batches were simply a money-making venture to finance the coveted and `in the red` mba program. perhaps.)

but like tayyab, i`d also like to point a few good things out about the place. i won;t go as far as to say that we`re better than most uni`s in amreeka. although many lums students firmly believe that our course load is a lot tougher (for many, tougher=better), especially due to the quarter system, it`s not the sort of statement you can make with a straight face. but, yes, we get an excellent education that is incomparable in pakistan and other developing countries. the course is diverse, the system is competitive (highly grade-oriented. not always a good thing i admit), there is ample focus on real world issues (development, politics, international relations etc.), emphasis on the arts (not enough but moreso than other colleges in paksitan barring nca and indus), and there is a high rate of college acceptance amongst top-tier foreign unis. all of my friends have entered respectable, if not kickass, universities for their masters or phds. (respectable. top 25. kickass. top 5. in the particular field of study).

but what is the best part of lums is its tolerance for opposing opinion. seriously, you can blaspheme in writing and get away with it. some of you, those in the west, may find this funny but thats the sort of stuff you get lynched for in this country. and remember, half of lums is mullah-controlled. its a great great deal, worth everyones respect. with this tolerance comes a degree of liberalism, which also is a good thing in this country, in these times.

as for the arrogance of lums students, alumni. well, i think theres one prime factor that accounts for this in the b.sc. program. i don;t think it applies for the mba though. firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat. don`t put alllll the blame on lums. sprinkle some of it across the country.

lums is a great place. it offers a great education. there may be lapse in high quality standards, but it`s hopefully only temporary. i don;t think its the level of students thats falling by that much (after all in percentage terms lums lums accepts fewer applicants than it did in 97 when i got in. i refuse to believe that the extra number of applicants are all below par), its the quality of faculty and services provided. and both these things can be rectified. like tayyab, i`d tell you to have some patience. bide your time. the top echelons of lums faculty are generally sensible people, despite what you may think while you`re there. they don;t want to see a uni they created turn into a hollow shell either ... how else will they get their sabbatical at yale? ;)

Hey polly. `sup ma man? :P dint read much of wat u all rote here...terribly short attention span i guess...wat bilal rote is rite...conditions have gotten worse den dey were one year ago but den dat`s wat every1 always thinks bout things: they`r worse den dey used to b.
however, apart from the exceeding costs and the decline in hosel standards here, i believe lums is the best thing dat cud happen to Pakistani students...i mean where else cud u not study like crazy n still maintain a gpa above 3 easily...yes conditions r gradually getting worse but no need to go about shouting that the world is coming to an end...LUMS is not run by complete nincompoops u know...they prob realize where dey`r going wid it n wat they`r doin...so let`s leave the running of the univ to dem n just enjoy our stay in is place.
ciao.

If an institution like LUMS is giving so much to it`s students don`t you think that students too should bear with it and wait for new developments (regarding triple occupancy in hostels, new IT LABs construction / new PCs allocation in LABs, new hiring of faculty) ?

Technology is the most unreliable thing of the world... so is there any point to talk about it...? What do you think?

As far as educaton standard is concerned I don`t think so it is getting down. Faculty selection criteria in LUMS doesn`t let it happen...I hope. As far as these issues that you have addressed in your article are not affecting the education standard... everything is OK.

Faculty is not doing mis-management so they will teach simply ``management`` to students....I think.

You are also right because you have studied from such an institution (i guess). We as a nation have adopted the policy that ``ignore the positive things and point out the negative.`` Wait a while and see what developments are in progress at LUMS...

//RE: sobia thats the very problem kiddo..you havent said anything ..apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there...//

Huh????? WHAT are you talking about, dude? London? Who did what to me? I`m not getting your point.

//lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.//

Maybe it SHOULD start to matter what others think, that is precisely my point. What are you getting all worked up about? It`s funny you think i`m a complexed desi because you haven`t even bothered to define what that is. If you look at what I`ve written from the beginning, I have repeatedly said LUMS is a good school, I just don`t feel it can be compared to foreign universities, as a lot of LUMS faculty and students tend to do (and no, zird, this is not ``hearsay``, they DO compare and unnecessarily so, in my opinion). A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right; let`s not, because LUMS is a local university that started out small, has grown and developed and is providing quality education. BUT...the quality has declined. If you`re not willing to accept that, that`s sad, because unless you accept a reality, you cannot work towards coming up with solutions to remedy the problem. I also said a lot of people from LUMS have attitude problems and I stand by it. I know most of you think that`s a ``gross generalization`` and if it is, I`m sorry. This is not my opinion after meeting ``ten`` people, it`s just something that I`ve seen over a period of time and which some of you interactors have reinforced. Anyhow, Hassan is right. It doesn`t really make a difference if LUMS students tend to be a little..shall we say...arrogant, because that`s probably the least of the university`s problems. Perhaps I did make a sweeping generalization and perhaps your reaction (though immature) was spontaneous, based on my rather caustic views. Learn to take a bit of criticism though. It comes with the territory, since you are a Luminite and are so grand and infallible! :-)

#145 by HassanShah

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

Actually i noticed, a lot of other `non-lums` ppl (not u) also got a little personal on this thread - so its only fitting that they`re replied in kind. As for turning a blind-eye...thats what almost everyone including xyz have been doing - i think a lot of lums ppl have conceded some shortcomings or that there`s been a decline in the quality, but seriously, excuse me for breathing? cuz the onslaught continues.

anyway most of the ppl posting here, have been making sweeping generalisations - based on hearsay (i know someone who knows someone who said....) or two (or even ten) ppl they met from lums.

``I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...``

I think what Razz meant was that there is a weak correlation between GPA and SAT scores and obviously GPA is more of a measure of intelligence (i guess?). Although interestingly enough i`ve seen a few studies (statistical) that contend the opposite, that there is a fairly strong and positive relation, if not highly positively significant.

Uhm i agree with most of the stuff which Bilal has said.
I have spent a year at LUMs and am currently studying in a university in states.
After coming here i realize what a big blessing LUMS is for Pakistanies. I only left LUMs because they dont have the major that i was interested in. I still think they have the setup, to expand, i just hope that they sort out the problums that they are having at the moment.
And one thing more...if one wants to major in Economics or CS then i think LUMS is a better alternative then most of the university in states, unless of course one talks abt the ivy league universities.

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#144 by razzz

As I said earlier:

``You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.``

Please read things in their entirety before jumping in to respond.

*****************************************************

The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye:

``i graduated with an avg GPA ``

I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...`` Any claim that relies on such subjective assessments of personal capability is bound to be flawed.

As I mentioned earlier, a 1370 in SAT I does not indicate how intelligent you are. Nor, for that matter, does it translate automatically to a place at the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Unless you`re one of the wealthy few who can buy their way into college, or are eternally indebted to your parents for giving birth to you in the US, or have done something to distinguish yourself otherwise (read Olympic gold medal) I don`t think you can be quite so certain about having been admitted to those schools. Sadly, a national of the land of the pure, requiring financial aid, without any stupendous achievements (or connections) needs a lot to make a compelling case for admission. If you`re male, that doesn`t help much either. Having worked at the admissions office at college, I can vouch for all that. MAYBE you might have made it, but just flat out claims that you warrant a place on the basis of the stats you mentioned are a bit hard to digest. I guess perhaps we are talking about different places when we say ``good university``.

``it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think``

Personally, I don`t care much for ascertaining without any reasonable doubt whether people from LUMS are arrogant or not. There are other, more important issues to debate. However, I think one should at least be a tad more open to criticism. It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you.

Re :
Every univ has its share of proud students and so do lums.........but i guess its not lums faults..........lums dznt teaches its students to be snooty...dz it. It just expects a lot from them and thats why lums students feel more accomplished then people who basically buy their degrees in USA. As for the continous objections about students with LOW SAT scores going to lums..........that should nt be given such a big weightage cz some of the student body which comes to lums do their FSC`s and matric rather then O and A levels and thus are not that adept at giving concept and comprehension based tests even though they might be as intelligent and talented as their counterparts. I got a score of 1370 in SAT I and similarly my SAT II scores were enough to get me into a good univ in USA........but in LUMS i graduated with an avg GPA ........so lets not delve into stupid facts and scenarios being put forward by people who are out of touch.


RE: sobia
thats the very problem kiddo............you havent said anything ..........apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there.......i guess thats where the anger stems from. As for your repeated negative opinions about LUMs.........lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.

cheers
raza

razz #135
``So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues
which they dont know about.``

I realise that it is very tempting to take pot-shots at each other,
but Indians have by and large stayed away from interacting in this
board. Have they not ? I`d assume that the reason is their lack of
information in this matter. So, who was that statement directed at ?

#141 by zird

You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.

I guess you and I are talking of LUMS at different points of time. LUMS, when it started out, was fairly good. My complaints have primarily been regarding the downslide that`s been taking place of late. Rather than taking measures to arrest the decline, I think there`s way too much complacency going on. You develop a reputation by sustaining a high standard, not by achieving it and then letting things taper off.

# 136 HassanShah

``Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. ``

Hmm yeah- actually i need to qualify my statements, i`m talking abt the lums i attended and i`m from the class of 99. Even till 2003, i`ve seen some fairly smart students - although since they`re taking a lot more students now, the overall quality of students may have declined. Although i do know that a lot more ppl : either those who`ve been rejected visa i.e. not by choice or those who don`t want to to go to US any long i.e. by choice, are going to lums - so maybe this yr the quality cld be better - than the 1100 SAT scores. Btw i don`t think SAT is a measure of intelligence, just like the GRE and GMAT aren`t, they`re just a measure of your test-taking abilities and there are surefire ways to beat those tests - which is a separate debate, but pls don`t judge quality of students, just by their SATs.

But u asked for numbers so here they are:

in my class of 100 graduating students

columbia law school
columbia - fin engineering
harvard
nyu -joint degree with bus school and sthg else
columbia bus school (admitted but didn`t go)
insead
cam
ox (3)
UT Austin
USC
Duke (2/3)
a couple went to some of the UC`s (not berkeley though)
lse (london)
warrick
georgia tech
sussex (2)
northwestern
dartmouth
jhu

So approximately 20 - (of 100) -(i`m not counting myself) thats 20 % and these are the ones i can recall. Oh and I have not counted that these ppl were admitted to equally decent places - but these are the ones they chose to go to. i know there are a couple of other ppl in CS that i`m definitely missing. `I think` these are terrific numbers (and i thikn all these places are pretty good - esp for the disciplines that these ppl went there for), given that another 7-8 ppl are working at Microsoft and then one guy is at accenture, another is doing actuaries and plenty working at mnc`s after their mba from lums as well .

In class of 2002 - I know there`s one person at Yale, 4 at Stanford, 1 went to berkeley, 6-7 are at oxford, and tons of others who i don`t know !

`` LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking. ``

Ok I agree with that. But i think it is one of the best places in Pakistan (at least) to read for a degree and as u said: Insha Allah - it can be an even better place.

When people say that LUMS students have an attitude problem, well its totally true isn`t it! LUMS is good but like every institution it has its draw backs too. whether or not you admit it, what im saying is true! The losers that return from the US because they can`t cope with studies abroad might find it difficult to cope at LUMS too. be a little realistic and get off ur high horse for heaven`s sake!!

//razz: As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan//

That`s hilarious. That`s your best shot at me for pointing out some faults in your university? If this is your attitude, then everything I have said stands validated. Cheers!

#130 by Trekker

Granted. It`s not an exponential growth, but still a disconcerting attempt to make things bigger continuously.

``increasing the class size ... has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). ``

I agree. I don`t think that`s what`s been happening though. Incremental drops in quality due to small increases in class size without a corresponding change in the facilities will eventually have an undersiable cumulative effect. I believe it`s time to pay heed to this.

You mentioned the politics associated with Dr. Shah, and then there`s that entire Dr. Azhar episode that wasn`t touched upon. I`m not sure what the truth is (like I said, we`ll probably never know for sure) but there have been constant allusions in what I`ve heard to the fact that things weren`t working out between him and the rest of the administration (and that there were a fair deal of personal biases involved). Quite unfortunate if you ask me.

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

#133 by zird

``not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ?``

Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. If that`s the stuff competition is made of, then one wonders what the overall level of the students is. Moroever, it`s a simple fact: when you get larger, you can`t admit students who are that qualified any longer.

``some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues. ``

Just how much is this ``some``. Please enlighten us as to what percentage of people in each class end up at Ivy league schools. I think the number is a lot smaller than what it`s made out to be. I`d like to see some stats.

``comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised``

Point conceded. Compared to universities in other developing countries, LUMS is probably pretty good. Just that it`s hard for me to readily buy the fact that it`s the out and out best around, or, more ludicrously (as Tayyab mentioned):

``udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world.``

Now that is clearly not true. I don`t know how you guys can seriously believe that. LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking.

As I wrote to HisExcellency, I`m sure LUMS can inshallah become a great place. Just that they need to get their feet firmly planted on the ground first.

#132 by TayyabBalagam

You lost me at:

``But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world``

Anyone who truly believes such ``undeniable`` facts, is perhaps beyond reproach. I just hope that others who`re associated with LUMS are capable of more realistic self-assessment.

#123 and 129 Hassan Shah

``but there just isn`t enough competition these days at LUMS. Places like MIT, Stanford, Princeton etc. share one thing in common; lots of very qualified students pushing each other to perform better. ``

not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ? LUMS is one of the most competitive places there is, and i think eventually it depends on your nature, but for most of us it really helped us learn to work under pressure and compete with some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues.

When i mentioned lacked of competition, it was not enough competition for lums - since there aren`t many institutions at par with lums in pakistan (not many, i didn`t say none).

Hassan as for whether you are a lums rejectee or studied abroad..it doesn`t really matter. I agree with you that lums may not be all that it is touted for, but it is pretty good, given resource constraints - esp. the lack of qualified phd`s. Coming from Pakistan, and comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised with the good foundations i received at lums. Tayyab also mentions this - lums did give us the extra edge when we went for graduate degrees. I did notice certain shortcomings and so did some of the other lums grads and i`m pleased to know that they did incorporate many of our suggestions by designing new courses or altering existing courses.

Although i must commend you Bilal on your candid and frank assessment of the current state of affairs at LUMS, i must also say that unfortunately you too have succumbed to the traits of a quintessential Pakistani. The current traits of any Pakistani denizen include foremost impatience. We, in pakistan need results immediately and cynicism comes as normally to us as eating food is to other humans.

I graduated from Lums BSC program in 1999 and at that time I agree that there were not many students. But indeed the facilities at that time were also in their nascent stage and were being developed.

Today, LUMS has more facilities yet it also has more students. But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world. And after having done a Bachelors degree from LUMS, a Masters degree from University of Texas at Austin was a piece of cake for me.

Please try to understand that we are a developing nation. There is limited financing available to LUMS also and it is this limited financing which needs to be channeled towards development of facilities and infrastructure at LUMS. If the LUMS administration were to shove three people into a room and say that this is it and u gotta live with it, then it would be rather unfair. But since they have already exhibited their commitment towards developing new hostel facilities, i feel that only a little bit of patience is required before you will get what you want.

Be optimistic rather than being cynical and reeking of pessimism. In a country where literacy is already excessively low, we must commend LUMS and its administration for having been committed to their goal of providing education and quality education at that consistently for almost the past two decades. We should commend them rather than being cry babies about trivial faults. No one is denying that faults do not exist at LUMS......there are many but in a broader perspective LUMS is undeniably the best educational institution in pakistan and the positives by far outweigh the negatives.

In addition, if you do not like the place, you have a choice of leaving it. Just like i use the cliche when speaking to our cynical Pakistani brothers that, ``Love Pakistan or leave it!``, i must say that the same applies to LUMS and you i.e., ``Leave LUMS or leave it.`` And perhaps by leaving LUMS, you would also be espousing some element of your pseudo intellectual freedom of expression (now now am i being a cynic or what :) )

All in all, LUMS is a renowned institution and the people over there are committed towards imparting high quality education. The infrastructure is bound to be developed....all that is required is patience and appreciation of all the positive things that do happen. Good luck to you Bilal and may you graduate from LUMS which provides one of the best degrees in the world, at times even better than that of internationally renowned universities!!

HassanShan #129

I completely agree that resting on past achievements is the worst thing that can happen and hopefully the admin and faculty are aware of that. There can be mixed opinions about increasing the class size -- it has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). Let`s take a look at the approximate undergrad class intake at LUMS:

Class of 1997: 65 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1998: 80 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1999: 120 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences)
Class of 2000/1: 150 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2002: 190 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2003: 240
.....
Class of 2007: 400 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math, Accounting/Finance, Law)

...this is by no means astronomical growth. If any chowk member can post details about the class/batch sizes at GIKI, NUST, FAST etc that would provide us with a good frame of reference.

Then there`s that other thing I mentioned. I don`t know how much truth there is in the rumours that I`ve been hearing (I doubt anyone can tell for sure) but I`ve been told that a couple of the professors at LUMS left because things didn`t work out between them and the administration

I can only say for sure that I know about Dr. Sohail Aslam because he told me himself. He wanted to get out in the field and practice software development rather than teach it. It was a personal decision. What I`ve heard about Dr Salman Shah was that he left after Dr Wasim Azhar was made the Dean and not him. Sort of like senior Corps Commanders resigning if a junior among them is made COAS. Again, a personal decision. Dr. Wasim Azhar was the dean/pro-VC for a decade and if he had issues with the admin ... well he WAS the admin the only ones above him in the LUMS org chart were Syed Babar Ali and Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf (or was it Tarrar at the time? Don`t remember exactly.... )

Trekker:

It seems that you have been trekking quite a bit, so you may have missed my point. So you are implying that LUMS, originally developed to attend to the intelle`k`tual needs of the business minded folks, should start focusing on technology related disciplines and follow MIT as a model ?

My earlier point was that starting a separate computer science program and other specific disciplines that may distract the focus is a redundant effort. Why not upgrade and extend the existing computer science programs at some older institutions and provide the faculty with better rewards? Why not have an equity investment there? The engg, science and technology universities existing in Pakistan(govt run) need to get a face lift along with the required makeup to look sexy like the private institutions. I am sure the private sector has the right cosmetics and formula that they can lend to the govt run institutions.

Lastly, rather than jumping to MIT to compare or consider as a model, why not look across the border and learn from them. Who is your audience and who are the stakeholders? 3rd world countries whether developed or on the road to development should not lose their vision and who they are. Point to ponder...

113:ZehraJ
Very good observations. Thanks.

This is a very good discussion board. Very informative and productive. Let us have more of such kind.
Pakistanis! chugg along, You`ve been steeled by graduating from the school of hard-knocks as well. More than anyone else in the world.

You are our real hope & joy.

#127 by HisExcellency

``none of these claims are baseless``

Perhaps it wasn`t clear what I was referring to. ``Claims`` is referencese to LUMS being in the league of other world-class institutions. I fully believe (though don`t care much for) the bit about the student to computer ratios etc. What I don`t agree with is the claim of LUMS being right up there with the best.

``The fact that LUMS students trounced IIT, CMU and several U.S. universities in the CSIDC contest (see Romair`s post #23), is ample proof that the difference between LUMS and other schools is not that huge. ``

I think that`s more what I was referring to. One contest. You guys draw way too much from these things. It`s like the Bangladeshis getting all excited after they beat Pakistan in `99. These things happen. Even if LUMS did thrash the living daylights out of CMU in the contest, I think no one ought to be fooled into thinking that the CS departments at both places are even remotely at par. I hope by ``other schools`` you meant something more reasonable.

``Of course it lags behind IIM Ahmedabad and 20 odd Asian B-schools. ``

Phew. Now that`s more like it. LUMS is 20th in Asia, and numerically, given that most of the good schools around the world are in US and Europe, that`s not a stunning performance.

Comparing b