LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

113:ZehraJ
Very good observations. Thanks.

This is a very good discussion board. Very informative and productive. Let us have more of such kind.
Pakistanis! chugg along, You`ve been steeled by graduating from the school of hard-knocks as well. More than anyone else in the world.

You are our real hope & joy.

Trekker:

It seems that you have been trekking quite a bit, so you may have missed my point. So you are implying that LUMS, originally developed to attend to the intelle`k`tual needs of the business minded folks, should start focusing on technology related disciplines and follow MIT as a model ?

My earlier point was that starting a separate computer science program and other specific disciplines that may distract the focus is a redundant effort. Why not upgrade and extend the existing computer science programs at some older institutions and provide the faculty with better rewards? Why not have an equity investment there? The engg, science and technology universities existing in Pakistan(govt run) need to get a face lift along with the required makeup to look sexy like the private institutions. I am sure the private sector has the right cosmetics and formula that they can lend to the govt run institutions.

Lastly, rather than jumping to MIT to compare or consider as a model, why not look across the border and learn from them. Who is your audience and who are the stakeholders? 3rd world countries whether developed or on the road to development should not lose their vision and who they are. Point to ponder...

HassanShan #129

I completely agree that resting on past achievements is the worst thing that can happen and hopefully the admin and faculty are aware of that. There can be mixed opinions about increasing the class size -- it has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). Let`s take a look at the approximate undergrad class intake at LUMS:

Class of 1997: 65 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1998: 80 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ)
Class of 1999: 120 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences)
Class of 2000/1: 150 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2002: 190 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math)
Class of 2003: 240
.....
Class of 2007: 400 (Majors Offered: Comp Sci, Econ, Social Sciences, Math, Accounting/Finance, Law)

...this is by no means astronomical growth. If any chowk member can post details about the class/batch sizes at GIKI, NUST, FAST etc that would provide us with a good frame of reference.

Then there`s that other thing I mentioned. I don`t know how much truth there is in the rumours that I`ve been hearing (I doubt anyone can tell for sure) but I`ve been told that a couple of the professors at LUMS left because things didn`t work out between them and the administration

I can only say for sure that I know about Dr. Sohail Aslam because he told me himself. He wanted to get out in the field and practice software development rather than teach it. It was a personal decision. What I`ve heard about Dr Salman Shah was that he left after Dr Wasim Azhar was made the Dean and not him. Sort of like senior Corps Commanders resigning if a junior among them is made COAS. Again, a personal decision. Dr. Wasim Azhar was the dean/pro-VC for a decade and if he had issues with the admin ... well he WAS the admin the only ones above him in the LUMS org chart were Syed Babar Ali and Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf (or was it Tarrar at the time? Don`t remember exactly.... )

Although i must commend you Bilal on your candid and frank assessment of the current state of affairs at LUMS, i must also say that unfortunately you too have succumbed to the traits of a quintessential Pakistani. The current traits of any Pakistani denizen include foremost impatience. We, in pakistan need results immediately and cynicism comes as normally to us as eating food is to other humans.

I graduated from Lums BSC program in 1999 and at that time I agree that there were not many students. But indeed the facilities at that time were also in their nascent stage and were being developed.

Today, LUMS has more facilities yet it also has more students. But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world. And after having done a Bachelors degree from LUMS, a Masters degree from University of Texas at Austin was a piece of cake for me.

Please try to understand that we are a developing nation. There is limited financing available to LUMS also and it is this limited financing which needs to be channeled towards development of facilities and infrastructure at LUMS. If the LUMS administration were to shove three people into a room and say that this is it and u gotta live with it, then it would be rather unfair. But since they have already exhibited their commitment towards developing new hostel facilities, i feel that only a little bit of patience is required before you will get what you want.

Be optimistic rather than being cynical and reeking of pessimism. In a country where literacy is already excessively low, we must commend LUMS and its administration for having been committed to their goal of providing education and quality education at that consistently for almost the past two decades. We should commend them rather than being cry babies about trivial faults. No one is denying that faults do not exist at LUMS......there are many but in a broader perspective LUMS is undeniably the best educational institution in pakistan and the positives by far outweigh the negatives.

In addition, if you do not like the place, you have a choice of leaving it. Just like i use the cliche when speaking to our cynical Pakistani brothers that, ``Love Pakistan or leave it!``, i must say that the same applies to LUMS and you i.e., ``Leave LUMS or leave it.`` And perhaps by leaving LUMS, you would also be espousing some element of your pseudo intellectual freedom of expression (now now am i being a cynic or what :) )

All in all, LUMS is a renowned institution and the people over there are committed towards imparting high quality education. The infrastructure is bound to be developed....all that is required is patience and appreciation of all the positive things that do happen. Good luck to you Bilal and may you graduate from LUMS which provides one of the best degrees in the world, at times even better than that of internationally renowned universities!!

#123 and 129 Hassan Shah

``but there just isn`t enough competition these days at LUMS. Places like MIT, Stanford, Princeton etc. share one thing in common; lots of very qualified students pushing each other to perform better. ``

not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ? LUMS is one of the most competitive places there is, and i think eventually it depends on your nature, but for most of us it really helped us learn to work under pressure and compete with some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues.

When i mentioned lacked of competition, it was not enough competition for lums - since there aren`t many institutions at par with lums in pakistan (not many, i didn`t say none).

Hassan as for whether you are a lums rejectee or studied abroad..it doesn`t really matter. I agree with you that lums may not be all that it is touted for, but it is pretty good, given resource constraints - esp. the lack of qualified phd`s. Coming from Pakistan, and comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised with the good foundations i received at lums. Tayyab also mentions this - lums did give us the extra edge when we went for graduate degrees. I did notice certain shortcomings and so did some of the other lums grads and i`m pleased to know that they did incorporate many of our suggestions by designing new courses or altering existing courses.

#132 by TayyabBalagam

You lost me at:

``But udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world``

Anyone who truly believes such ``undeniable`` facts, is perhaps beyond reproach. I just hope that others who`re associated with LUMS are capable of more realistic self-assessment.

#133 by zird

``not enough competition AT lums? where did u hear that ?``

Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. If that`s the stuff competition is made of, then one wonders what the overall level of the students is. Moroever, it`s a simple fact: when you get larger, you can`t admit students who are that qualified any longer.

``some really smart people, who`re now at ivy-leagues. ``

Just how much is this ``some``. Please enlighten us as to what percentage of people in each class end up at Ivy league schools. I think the number is a lot smaller than what it`s made out to be. I`d like to see some stats.

``comparing my undergraduate education with that from other `developing countries`, i was pleasantly surprised``

Point conceded. Compared to universities in other developing countries, LUMS is probably pretty good. Just that it`s hard for me to readily buy the fact that it`s the out and out best around, or, more ludicrously (as Tayyab mentioned):

``udneniably, it ranks amongst the top universities in the world.``

Now that is clearly not true. I don`t know how you guys can seriously believe that. LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking.

As I wrote to HisExcellency, I`m sure LUMS can inshallah become a great place. Just that they need to get their feet firmly planted on the ground first.

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

Re: Tayyabbalagam/hassan shah/ Zahra J:

Tayyab and Hassan I completely agree with you. Being a lums graduate from the batch of 2002 i do claim to know a little about LUMS and i am surprised how these cynics are passing value judgements on LUMS without even having attended it. Sure Lums is encountered with some accomadation problems for the out of station students but it does not mean that as a university its standards are falling. Since when did expanding one`s program become a crime for a university. LUMS has definite plans for making new hostels so i guess that is no reason for crucifying the university on that account.

As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan. Almost everyone who has attended lums would agree that it offers one of the most tough undergrad programs in the world. A grad from lums can handle deadlines and pressure as easily as a grad from any foriegn university. We had a few tranfser students from US univs in lums and most of them complained about the tough program in lums and how their high transfered GPA`s from UPEN and Cornell were suffering at lums. Plus the reasoning provided by zahra is quite ridicolous .....i mean if lums has the ability to provide a good CS program to its students then why shldnt it do that. It does not need to listen to fools like her and change its vision. The Lums MBA program has actually reduced its intake over the last few years to improve its quality.
The no of students in that program actually declined from an avg of 110 to 65 in the last cpl of years.
How many univs in the world do that ? So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues which they dont know about. Similarly the whole fuss over ratings is quite ridicolous......as long as students are getting a good education, nice jobs and admissions into good univs after finishing lums then ratings dont mak a difference. My cousin was in the batch of 99 and he got into good companies like Unisys and accenture after leaving LUMS....i myself got into ICI....without any hassle..most of my friends from lums have gotten into nice univs in USA...like cornell and columbia etc.....i cant see why ppl are making such a big fuss over lums and its falling standards. I guess we need to come up with some constructive criticism about lums rather then just cynicism with no real purpose.

cheers
raza

#130 by Trekker

Granted. It`s not an exponential growth, but still a disconcerting attempt to make things bigger continuously.

``increasing the class size ... has to be done at a pace in tandem with the growth of the facilities (faculty, classes, infrastructure, etc). ``

I agree. I don`t think that`s what`s been happening though. Incremental drops in quality due to small increases in class size without a corresponding change in the facilities will eventually have an undersiable cumulative effect. I believe it`s time to pay heed to this.

You mentioned the politics associated with Dr. Shah, and then there`s that entire Dr. Azhar episode that wasn`t touched upon. I`m not sure what the truth is (like I said, we`ll probably never know for sure) but there have been constant allusions in what I`ve heard to the fact that things weren`t working out between him and the rest of the administration (and that there were a fair deal of personal biases involved). Quite unfortunate if you ask me.

//razz: As for people like sobia and zahra j, their high flying opinion about american univ mostly stems from the fact that they are just part of that psuedo group who have an inferiority complex and cant accept anything good about pakistan//

That`s hilarious. That`s your best shot at me for pointing out some faults in your university? If this is your attitude, then everything I have said stands validated. Cheers!

When people say that LUMS students have an attitude problem, well its totally true isn`t it! LUMS is good but like every institution it has its draw backs too. whether or not you admit it, what im saying is true! The losers that return from the US because they can`t cope with studies abroad might find it difficult to cope at LUMS too. be a little realistic and get off ur high horse for heaven`s sake!!

# 136 HassanShah

``Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. ``

Hmm yeah- actually i need to qualify my statements, i`m talking abt the lums i attended and i`m from the class of 99. Even till 2003, i`ve seen some fairly smart students - although since they`re taking a lot more students now, the overall quality of students may have declined. Although i do know that a lot more ppl : either those who`ve been rejected visa i.e. not by choice or those who don`t want to to go to US any long i.e. by choice, are going to lums - so maybe this yr the quality cld be better - than the 1100 SAT scores. Btw i don`t think SAT is a measure of intelligence, just like the GRE and GMAT aren`t, they`re just a measure of your test-taking abilities and there are surefire ways to beat those tests - which is a separate debate, but pls don`t judge quality of students, just by their SATs.

But u asked for numbers so here they are:

in my class of 100 graduating students

columbia law school
columbia - fin engineering
harvard
nyu -joint degree with bus school and sthg else
columbia bus school (admitted but didn`t go)
insead
cam
ox (3)
UT Austin
USC
Duke (2/3)
a couple went to some of the UC`s (not berkeley though)
lse (london)
warrick
georgia tech
sussex (2)
northwestern
dartmouth
jhu

So approximately 20 - (of 100) -(i`m not counting myself) thats 20 % and these are the ones i can recall. Oh and I have not counted that these ppl were admitted to equally decent places - but these are the ones they chose to go to. i know there are a couple of other ppl in CS that i`m definitely missing. `I think` these are terrific numbers (and i thikn all these places are pretty good - esp for the disciplines that these ppl went there for), given that another 7-8 ppl are working at Microsoft and then one guy is at accenture, another is doing actuaries and plenty working at mnc`s after their mba from lums as well .

In class of 2002 - I know there`s one person at Yale, 4 at Stanford, 1 went to berkeley, 6-7 are at oxford, and tons of others who i don`t know !

`` LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking. ``

Ok I agree with that. But i think it is one of the best places in Pakistan (at least) to read for a degree and as u said: Insha Allah - it can be an even better place.

#141 by zird

You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.

I guess you and I are talking of LUMS at different points of time. LUMS, when it started out, was fairly good. My complaints have primarily been regarding the downslide that`s been taking place of late. Rather than taking measures to arrest the decline, I think there`s way too much complacency going on. You develop a reputation by sustaining a high standard, not by achieving it and then letting things taper off.

razz #135
``So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues
which they dont know about.``

I realise that it is very tempting to take pot-shots at each other,
but Indians have by and large stayed away from interacting in this
board. Have they not ? I`d assume that the reason is their lack of
information in this matter. So, who was that statement directed at ?

Re :
Every univ has its share of proud students and so do lums.........but i guess its not lums faults..........lums dznt teaches its students to be snooty...dz it. It just expects a lot from them and thats why lums students feel more accomplished then people who basically buy their degrees in USA. As for the continous objections about students with LOW SAT scores going to lums..........that should nt be given such a big weightage cz some of the student body which comes to lums do their FSC`s and matric rather then O and A levels and thus are not that adept at giving concept and comprehension based tests even though they might be as intelligent and talented as their counterparts. I got a score of 1370 in SAT I and similarly my SAT II scores were enough to get me into a good univ in USA........but in LUMS i graduated with an avg GPA ........so lets not delve into stupid facts and scenarios being put forward by people who are out of touch.


RE: sobia
thats the very problem kiddo............you havent said anything ..........apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there.......i guess thats where the anger stems from. As for your repeated negative opinions about LUMs.........lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.

cheers
raza