LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

#144 by razzz

As I said earlier:

``You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.``

Please read things in their entirety before jumping in to respond.

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The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye:

``i graduated with an avg GPA ``

I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...`` Any claim that relies on such subjective assessments of personal capability is bound to be flawed.

As I mentioned earlier, a 1370 in SAT I does not indicate how intelligent you are. Nor, for that matter, does it translate automatically to a place at the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Unless you`re one of the wealthy few who can buy their way into college, or are eternally indebted to your parents for giving birth to you in the US, or have done something to distinguish yourself otherwise (read Olympic gold medal) I don`t think you can be quite so certain about having been admitted to those schools. Sadly, a national of the land of the pure, requiring financial aid, without any stupendous achievements (or connections) needs a lot to make a compelling case for admission. If you`re male, that doesn`t help much either. Having worked at the admissions office at college, I can vouch for all that. MAYBE you might have made it, but just flat out claims that you warrant a place on the basis of the stats you mentioned are a bit hard to digest. I guess perhaps we are talking about different places when we say ``good university``.

``it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think``

Personally, I don`t care much for ascertaining without any reasonable doubt whether people from LUMS are arrogant or not. There are other, more important issues to debate. However, I think one should at least be a tad more open to criticism. It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you.

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Uhm i agree with most of the stuff which Bilal has said.
I have spent a year at LUMs and am currently studying in a university in states.
After coming here i realize what a big blessing LUMS is for Pakistanies. I only left LUMs because they dont have the major that i was interested in. I still think they have the setup, to expand, i just hope that they sort out the problums that they are having at the moment.
And one thing more...if one wants to major in Economics or CS then i think LUMS is a better alternative then most of the university in states, unless of course one talks abt the ivy league universities.

#145 by HassanShah

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

Actually i noticed, a lot of other `non-lums` ppl (not u) also got a little personal on this thread - so its only fitting that they`re replied in kind. As for turning a blind-eye...thats what almost everyone including xyz have been doing - i think a lot of lums ppl have conceded some shortcomings or that there`s been a decline in the quality, but seriously, excuse me for breathing? cuz the onslaught continues.

anyway most of the ppl posting here, have been making sweeping generalisations - based on hearsay (i know someone who knows someone who said....) or two (or even ten) ppl they met from lums.

``I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...``

I think what Razz meant was that there is a weak correlation between GPA and SAT scores and obviously GPA is more of a measure of intelligence (i guess?). Although interestingly enough i`ve seen a few studies (statistical) that contend the opposite, that there is a fairly strong and positive relation, if not highly positively significant.

//RE: sobia thats the very problem kiddo..you havent said anything ..apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there...//

Huh????? WHAT are you talking about, dude? London? Who did what to me? I`m not getting your point.

//lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.//

Maybe it SHOULD start to matter what others think, that is precisely my point. What are you getting all worked up about? It`s funny you think i`m a complexed desi because you haven`t even bothered to define what that is. If you look at what I`ve written from the beginning, I have repeatedly said LUMS is a good school, I just don`t feel it can be compared to foreign universities, as a lot of LUMS faculty and students tend to do (and no, zird, this is not ``hearsay``, they DO compare and unnecessarily so, in my opinion). A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right; let`s not, because LUMS is a local university that started out small, has grown and developed and is providing quality education. BUT...the quality has declined. If you`re not willing to accept that, that`s sad, because unless you accept a reality, you cannot work towards coming up with solutions to remedy the problem. I also said a lot of people from LUMS have attitude problems and I stand by it. I know most of you think that`s a ``gross generalization`` and if it is, I`m sorry. This is not my opinion after meeting ``ten`` people, it`s just something that I`ve seen over a period of time and which some of you interactors have reinforced. Anyhow, Hassan is right. It doesn`t really make a difference if LUMS students tend to be a little..shall we say...arrogant, because that`s probably the least of the university`s problems. Perhaps I did make a sweeping generalization and perhaps your reaction (though immature) was spontaneous, based on my rather caustic views. Learn to take a bit of criticism though. It comes with the territory, since you are a Luminite and are so grand and infallible! :-)

If an institution like LUMS is giving so much to it`s students don`t you think that students too should bear with it and wait for new developments (regarding triple occupancy in hostels, new IT LABs construction / new PCs allocation in LABs, new hiring of faculty) ?

Technology is the most unreliable thing of the world... so is there any point to talk about it...? What do you think?

As far as educaton standard is concerned I don`t think so it is getting down. Faculty selection criteria in LUMS doesn`t let it happen...I hope. As far as these issues that you have addressed in your article are not affecting the education standard... everything is OK.

Faculty is not doing mis-management so they will teach simply ``management`` to students....I think.

You are also right because you have studied from such an institution (i guess). We as a nation have adopted the policy that ``ignore the positive things and point out the negative.`` Wait a while and see what developments are in progress at LUMS...

Hey polly. `sup ma man? :P dint read much of wat u all rote here...terribly short attention span i guess...wat bilal rote is rite...conditions have gotten worse den dey were one year ago but den dat`s wat every1 always thinks bout things: they`r worse den dey used to b.
however, apart from the exceeding costs and the decline in hosel standards here, i believe lums is the best thing dat cud happen to Pakistani students...i mean where else cud u not study like crazy n still maintain a gpa above 3 easily...yes conditions r gradually getting worse but no need to go about shouting that the world is coming to an end...LUMS is not run by complete nincompoops u know...they prob realize where dey`r going wid it n wat they`r doin...so let`s leave the running of the univ to dem n just enjoy our stay in is place.
ciao.

well said bilal. over the past few years, most lums alumni have noticed a downward trend in quality. quality of students, quality of faculty and quality of services provided. i`d like to believe that this is temporary, an effect that can be squarely pegged to the transition from a fledgling college to a proper university ... but i don`t know how true it is. i`m hoping though.

i can be cynical and argue that from what we`ve seen of most things in pakistan, quality is a temporary phenomenon. in that light, lums built up its rep and is now earning dividends. and the more the students, the greater the profit.
(let`s make note of one thing here. its not the b.sc. program at lums that ranks #23 in asia, its the mba program. those who`ve been at lums will agree that these are effectively two separate instituions with minimal interaction. and its not the mba faculty or students that have faced this downward trend in quality. lums is still very selective about who it takes into the mba, the faculty is still very well educated, and i presume the mba`s still have their own separate computer labs, hostels etc. so in that light, perhaps the b.sc batches were simply a money-making venture to finance the coveted and `in the red` mba program. perhaps.)

but like tayyab, i`d also like to point a few good things out about the place. i won;t go as far as to say that we`re better than most uni`s in amreeka. although many lums students firmly believe that our course load is a lot tougher (for many, tougher=better), especially due to the quarter system, it`s not the sort of statement you can make with a straight face. but, yes, we get an excellent education that is incomparable in pakistan and other developing countries. the course is diverse, the system is competitive (highly grade-oriented. not always a good thing i admit), there is ample focus on real world issues (development, politics, international relations etc.), emphasis on the arts (not enough but moreso than other colleges in paksitan barring nca and indus), and there is a high rate of college acceptance amongst top-tier foreign unis. all of my friends have entered respectable, if not kickass, universities for their masters or phds. (respectable. top 25. kickass. top 5. in the particular field of study).

but what is the best part of lums is its tolerance for opposing opinion. seriously, you can blaspheme in writing and get away with it. some of you, those in the west, may find this funny but thats the sort of stuff you get lynched for in this country. and remember, half of lums is mullah-controlled. its a great great deal, worth everyones respect. with this tolerance comes a degree of liberalism, which also is a good thing in this country, in these times.

as for the arrogance of lums students, alumni. well, i think theres one prime factor that accounts for this in the b.sc. program. i don;t think it applies for the mba though. firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat. don`t put alllll the blame on lums. sprinkle some of it across the country.

lums is a great place. it offers a great education. there may be lapse in high quality standards, but it`s hopefully only temporary. i don;t think its the level of students thats falling by that much (after all in percentage terms lums lums accepts fewer applicants than it did in 97 when i got in. i refuse to believe that the extra number of applicants are all below par), its the quality of faculty and services provided. and both these things can be rectified. like tayyab, i`d tell you to have some patience. bide your time. the top echelons of lums faculty are generally sensible people, despite what you may think while you`re there. they don;t want to see a uni they created turn into a hollow shell either ... how else will they get their sabbatical at yale? ;)

Sobia, do you think LUMS students are arrogant?

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

I completely agree.......everyone must appreciate criticism and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I also agree i should not have written that undeniably LUMS Is amongst the top universities in the world....i think i meant top universities in Asia............i hope this was not mistaken as arrogance...i guess `world` was written in the heat of the moment instead of `Asia`.

I am the first to admit that LUMS has its flaws and thats what i wrote in my earlier posting also. However, it is my opinion(with which of course anyone can differ) that the positives given the current educational structure in Pakistan by far outweigh the negatives.

Also, i feel that if you have not been to LUMS and have not studied at LUMS, jumping to conclusions about the standard of education there is a bit unfair. Once u have been through the LUMS experience, only then do you realize what a blessing the years spent over there are.

Also, with regard to whether Lums graduates are arrogant etc, i feel that too you cannot generalize because that is a trait that can vary from person to person and from institution to institution. People say the same about Aitchison graduates and about Karachi Grammar graduates but one has to look at that on a specific basis rather than on a general level.


Anyways, Zird if you are from BSC 99, email me at juxtapose99@hotmail.com

Adios

rozy, i think you rock..everyone else fades away :P

`` firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make``

Hey Lalib,
i dunno whether i know u but just a small question........your statement appears to imply that anyone and everyone who goes to Alevels is part of the elite and anyone and everyone who does his A levels is bound to be haughty and arrogant..........interesting......about half the people who do their A levels tend to go abroad......does that mean that American universities are full of Arrogant Pakis :)........and i guess some A Levels students also go to IBA and CBM etc ....that probably exonerates LUMS graduates from the allegation of being arrogant since according to your argument, arrogance is then prevalent across all educational institutions in Pakistan.

All i can say is gimme a break yaar.........sometimes i wish that us Pakistanis were arrogant and proud enough to get our country out of the mess we currently are in due to the continual decadence in our society.

And what exactly is your definition of an elite school..........the current imbalance in fee structures probably implies that all schools and universities, including LUMS are elitist.......using that argument what does that make you also........a product of an elitist university eh :):)

My friend, Lalib, Its time we let the horses free and let them venture onto their own stables according to their own desires :):)

Adios

Ok lets analyze ur misgivings about lums and my prev post one by one.First of all i and almost any luminite would be open to any consrtuctive criticism and i repeat constructive criticism coming from (an informed person not any tom dick n harry out there) who has never been to lums but thinks that it is his/her right to blast lums for no reason at all. Lums has its share of faults but we need to go over them in a logical manner not just shoot volleys in the dark as a certain lady has been doing.

I dont know about you people but i dont think calling luminites as arrogant and haughty is considered constructive criticism by any intelligent person(discounting ONE genius over here) specially when you know the university doesnt play any part in that. I was in the univ for four years but i dont recall any course on arrogance being taught over there nor i can imagine arif zaman or wasim azhar teaching us to be very proud of ourselves and think of us as one step above others. Plus everyone knows its a relative term and can not be generalized for the whole student body of lums or any other university.

Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities. In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions. Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities because we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.

As for the continous harping about lums taking in a much larger batch for BSC well lets carefully analyze that shall we. First of all you have to realize that Pakistan is a very popolous country with very few universities available to students let alone GOOD universities. So most of the student body over here doesnt even have to access to good education. Thus expansion and providing better education to a greater number of people should be the aim of every good university. Any problems with that ?

Now you would argue that quality should be mantained.....well as far as i know LUMS is trying its best to keep up the quality..and succeeding to some extent as well. Sure there are problems with the accomadation facilities but they will go away with time as new hostels are already being planned. Furthermore we have to realize that the Hundred (supposedly extra i.e. 400 instead of 300 or 250 ) students which are being taken by the university dont lag that much behind the first couple of hundred students which were taken by lums previously and those who do lag behind are shunted out( sorry for using this word over here) by the relative grading system being used by LUMS. An example would be that the original strength of my batch was 202 and by the time we graduated that had reduced to 144. That alone is reflective of how quality is mantained in lums. Plus we also need to look into the fact that after 9/11 a lot of students which otherwise would have gone to USA are now applying to lums instead of going abroad. Lums also has to cater to them now. I cant seem to understand why people are so bent upon making an elitist insitituion out of lums and want it to remain confined to teaching a few selected no of students.

Apart from this those of you who cant even think of comparing LUMS to the top american schools also need to look into the fact that teaching brilliant students is a lot different from bringing out the best from an average student. Top schools like Harvard, Stanford and Wharton get the cream of students from all over the world ....and in my personal opinion they dont perform any miracle when they convert these already brilliant students into exceptionally talented managers and professionals. In my view a job well done is taking an average student and making an accomplished professional out of him. In my view the LUMS bsc program does that to a little extent (i wont actually call it a miracle but atleast a good attempt) by having the quarter system instead of the semester system because it makes one more used to pressure situations and tough work loads which compensates for that brilliance exuded by the top american students to some extent.


cheers
raza

tayyab,

1) i think i explicitly said ``of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat``.
this does not imply that everyone and anyone from these `elite` schools is arrogant. i don`t see how this sentence can even convey that ... if it does somehow manage to imply that ``everyone and anyone`` from these elite schools is arrogant, i`d like it understood that that was not what i meant.

2) yes, lums is an elite school. i don;t see many students from the low-income cadre. exceptions abound, but let`s face it, by pakistani standards lums/giki/akuh are pretty elitist. the average pakistani can only dream of such a place.

3)i used elite and elitist interchangably in the last point, although i realise the difference. it just so happens that in pakistan, as elsewhere, they often tend to be the same.
of course, there are elite schools that aren`t elitist such as cadet college hasan abdal. there are elitist schools that aren;t elite ... i shouldn`t take names:) .... then there are school that combine the properties of both: Exclusivity and Distinctiveness. prime examples are aitchison and kgs. lums lags far far far behind in this list. i MEAN far.

we can continue to argue over little details and how i mis-implied something but i hope you get my drift ...

4) and my argument was meant to exonerate the arrogance of lums students. i said that the blame for that should be distributed amongst the many feeder-schools in the country. students from these schools and from a certain background are likely to be arrogant. even in amreeka. yes, tayyab, it does mean that amreeki unis have their fair share of arrogant, spoilt, conceited pakis.

i do think that it was a flaky argument (i even implicitly acknowledged it as such) that could be shot down a million times over but it was just an argument that was meant to question the sweeping statement that lums breeds arrogance. despite it`s weakness, it at least serves it function.

regards

I head out for the weekend and I come back to millions of posts. There`s a whole lot of arrogance-related stuff, which, as I mentioned earlier, I don`t care much for, but the following did grab my attention:

``Moving on to the SAT scores.....well in my personal view SAT scores are really not that reflective of an individuals true abilities.``

I`ve already said as much. Your support is greatly appreciated.

``In query to Mr hassan`s views ( i tried my best to avoid mentioning this but people are more content in finding faults in sentences then the ideas over here) so I did get into an ivy league school....that is Cornell because my SAT II scores were a lot better then my SAT I score (740 and 720 in Math IC and IIC) and my parents could easily have afforded it as well ...``

Your SAT II scores were better than your SAT I scores ? You know what, I regret my brashness (and please do not take this personally) but I must point out that a 720 in Math IIC is fairly ordinary. 740 in Math IC is a bit better, but nothing extraordinary. The allusion that Cornell was overawed by your SAT I and SAT II scores (mediocre at best) is way off the mark and I think the ``because`` in your statement above should only have been followed by the ``my parents could easily have afforded it`` bit. Whether you choose to accept reality or not, I think your admission had more to do with the fact that your parents could easily afford to dole out all that money than the statistics you present (unless you`re hiding more relevant details, e.g., an Olympic medal, relation to some political figure etc.)

And yes, please don`t disparage the above as an attempt to fault your linguistic competence. You`re rattling on about your superlative SAT I and II scores to claim that you were good enough to get into a great college and making all kinds of inferences based on that. All I`m saying is that you`re rich enough to get into a great college, and your average GPA doesn`t amount to anything other than a measure of your performance at LUMS.

``so its YOU who should not jump to conclusions.``

Umm... I said your SAT I score was nothing special, and your SAT II scores are (dare I say it) even less impressive. I said that it was unlikely you would have got in had you been an international student asking for aid, and I still maintain that.

``Anyway even then in LUMS i got an average GPA``

Again, the ``I`` seems to be a critical part of your reasoning. That`s what I talked about earlier; you`re founding illogical arguments on a subjective assessment of your abilities. Did you ever think about starting out with your average GPA and reasoning in reverse ?

``so lets not give that much weightage to GPA`s``

SO lets not give ... Amazing. You mention that you get an average GPA and then this ``SO`` ties it up with not giving GPAs much weightage.

``and the SUPPOSEDLY amazing quality of american universities``

It`s not a fictitious belief. American universitites (at least the Ivies etc.) are fairly good and ``amazing``.

``we had a transfer student from over there whose GPA of 3.7 was reduced to a 2.5 in LUMS.``

Again, deductions based on the capabilities of a single individual. Call my beliefs hearsay, but at least they follow from personal interactions with the people running LUMS, teaching at LUMS, my siblings who got their degrees there, their friends and my own friends at the place (not to mention all the people I met on the campus during my countless visits there), not all of whom would be lying, exaggerating etc. However, I think at least I`m not guilty of extrapolating single observations and subjective individual-assessments into a string of arguments like you`ve done on more than one occasion.

Ligthen up. If you get the impression that I`m leading some kind of mass-campaign to shut LUMS down, I apologise for having come across like that. I think it`s a decent place, but could be much better. I also think that it`s not all that it`s made out to be and in order to improve, the people at LUMS need to take a realistic view of things into account.

Way to go Hasan:P
Khair...
I agree when people say that Luminites are arrogant. And even when one says that a large number of the people coming to LUMS are from the elite of Pakistan. But personally I was surprised by the diverse mix of people of people from different backgrounds of the Pakistani society at LUMS and how easily they were able to adjust. And as far as the fees are concerned, I agree that LUMS is expensive for a university in Pakistan but i compliment the LUMS administration on their financial aid program. The amount of aid might seem like peanuts as compared to the universities in states, but it is a start never the less and something which is to be encouraged. I know a great many people who can`t afford to pay the entire LUMS fee, but who are currently studying there because of a mix of scholarships, loans, and grants.
Another thing that I noticed after studying in an American university and meeting people from different various universities is that in LUMS the competition is sky high. When a Luminite transfers to a university in states there GPA seems to jump up by at least 0.5. It seems that the competition in LUMS pushes you to work harder. And I am not just talking about some second tier university in states. At LUMS I found people who rejected offers from the Ivy Leagues to stay at LUMS. The post 11th September scenario has further strengthened that trend. But whatever the reason the level of competition has gone up at least in the 2006 batch.
And I am in no way comparing LUMS to any Ivy League university! :P
As for the fiasco in the dorms, some universities even in The States have faced similar situations. Last year Boston University was faced with a similar problem, as a much higher then expected percentage of the incoming batch wanted to live on-campus, and to accommodate them all the university bought an entire hotel in Boston! I think i can forgive LUMS for the temporary chaotic setup.
My own personal view is that a larger number of people are applying to LUMS due to the post 11th September scenario and the uncertainty about the US visa process. So instead of criticizing them I applaud them for catering to the increase in the number of students who want to study at LUMS, instead if just refusing those students. And I hope that they are able to increase the available student resources and to maintain the standard that they have set.
Good Luck!

P.S: Aur sunao JESTER hows LUMS these days:P?