LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

Romair #45 and Hassan Shah #42.
I agree with most of what you have said Romair but disagree with you Hassan. The Virginia-based company I work for employs 5 LUMS CS grads (including myself) and they have performed very well. I interview 3-4 job candidates per week for the company which have included Indian nationals, Chinese and of course US Citizens from places like U Maryland College Park, UVA and my sense is that the average LUMS grad has a better mix of technical and ``soft`` skills than their US counterparts and better communication skills than other foreign nationals. Now keep in mind that the TOTAL number of CS graduates to date is approximately 350 (Classes of 1997 to 2003) which is a small number as compared to graduates of NED, FAST etc. In my class approximately 20% of the graduates opted to pursue higher education and one of them after completing his PhD from Cambridge is now a faculty member in the EECS Dept at MIT. Of course, as you say Hassan, one or two people gettin into good places does not mean anything but the fact is that consistently from each graduating class students have been getting admissions in the top-5 CS schools in the US such as Stanford, CMU, Cornell. The main problem they are facing right now is to get F1 visas in time! I know of several students who got admissions in top schools but their background check required by the US Embassy for Pakistani nationals was taking months+ and they had to either defer their admissions or withdraw.

Bilal, coming to your original post and concerns - I hear you. And these concerns were raised by the alumni as well with Dr Zahoor and Syed Babar Ali at alumni meetings in the US and they are alive to the situation. The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time. I remember in my time there was no on-campus student housing and students used to share rooms in houses in Defence that LUMS rented (plus if you`re finding so much time to spend in your dorm room they`re not driving you hard enough ;-) ). So hang in there and concentrate on your coursework.

Lets forget about LUMs, NED, GKI, FAST, or SLUM or whatever. Thesea re not that famous compared to others in Pakistan.

Well, more than LUMS, NED etc there are more important institutions in pakistan. These are world famous for they have made their presense felt in afghanistan, india, NYC and the US and now in China. These are the jehad terror camps in Pakistan. Well the Islamic Republic of Pakistan should rename itself (no not the Dominion of Pakistan as the Pak embassy in US calls Pakistan) but the International Institution for Terror (IIT) -8-()! Atleast there will be one acronym which has a brand feel to it!

Check this out from UNI

China points finger at Pak militant camps

Washington: Trouble could be brewing between long-time strategic allies China and Pakistan.

Recent statements by a senior Chinese official that separatist forces in the country`s restive Xinjian Autonomous Region have had training in several camps in Pakistan have led to speculation on the ties between the two nations, according to Strategic Forecasting (Stratfor).

Separatists in China`s predominantly Uighur-populated northwest were receiving assistance from international militant groups, including instruction in ``several training camps in Pakistan``, regional Communist Party secretary and Politburo member Wang Lequan said at a September 11 press conference for foreign journalists.

The statement is a shocking deviation of protocol between long-time allies China and Pakistan, the geopolitical analytical firm said in a report.

In the past, it said, Beijing has gone out of its way not to implicate Islamabad when speaking of the activities of Islamist militant groups. However, if the quote attributed to Wang is accurate and his views are official, it contains ``startling implications for Chinese-Pakistani relations``.

Speaking about Beijing`s struggle with Muslim separatist groups in the Xinjiang region, Wang reportedly said a small number of training camps had been found in Xinjiang since September 11, 2001, but that several more camps exist in Pakistan. He gave no further details.

The official`s statements could have been poorly translated or unsanctioned, off-the-cuff remarks, Stratfor said. But if his words reflect the current party line, a very sharp policy shift vis-a-vis Islamabad has occurred in Beijing, it added.

About 10 million of Xinjiang`s 19 million people are Muslim Uighurs, many of whom claim they are a distinct ethnic group with a right to declare their own homeland.

Beijing has suppressed a Uighur separatist movement in Xinjiang for more than a decade, and more than half a million Uighurs reportedly have fled from China into neighbouring Pakistan and Central Asia since 1996. From there, Stratfor alleged, they slip arms, aid and insurgents back across the border, aiding the rebellion.






UNI

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Hassan !

ok so the avg lums mba may not be a great as the avg wharton mba, but perhaps that is because they`re looking at two diff markets. Its a pretty illogical statement - that job opportunities after a wharton mba are better. Ppl who `choose` to get a lums mba, are those who want to live in Pakistan and there`s nothing better than a lums mba in that case, where u`re more aware of the local market. Most firms wld prefer to hire a lums mba than a person with an mba degree at least from a middle tiered US uni (of course hbs sloan and wharton wld be a diff case). Btw many of these lums mbas (with only their lums degrees) are working on wall-street and doing v. well: i-banking and also in consulting firms, guess they`re not so bad after all - so are they still lemons, that wall street cld not screen out? so much for their several rounds of interviews.

fin aid: lums does give a significant amount of financial aid and a few scholarships. The size of these may not be a large as those given out by liberal art colleges and ivy-leages in the US, but u have to admit that these institutions have been around for much longer. They have trust funds and donors, and are generating a regular income stream from them. LUMS has a long way to go - but given its short history, and not a huge amt of funds to depend on, the fin aid given is still sthg.

cs majors: i don`t know which lums cs majors u grilled - but its preposterous to claim that they`re not as good as ned etc grads. I guess that is why half of the past few lums cs class are employed at microsoft.

grad school: despite the faculty from `not so great` unis, i think its still quite a feat that lums grads are studying at grad schools in ivy-leages in the US and are surviving the rigours too.

and lastly

In fact, the only real edge LUMS provides is that you get to mingle with the rich elite of >the country and might be able to find jobs more easily that way.

yes of course...it was the connections that got `em jobs at microsoft, in i-banking and consulting in the US !

#48 by HisExellency

Things are down for Wharton grads these days ? Well, from what I hear from my friends in LUMS, they`re not that rosy for people there either. As for IBA, I don`t think it`s doing that badly. True, it has had its ups and downs over the years, but I know of quite a few people who managed to get admitted to MBA programs at University of Chicago, Northwestern etc. and have landed jobs are places like McKinsey.

There was another post down there somewhere stating that by mingling with those with wads of cash, LUMS graduates manage to get jobs at Microsoft (a company that produces products of debatable quality). Perhaps my view of an educational institute is skewed, but I thought a college is meant to educate people. Not to merely serve as a social networking club.

#45 by Romair

``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.``

I`m not sure what to make of that. Enough rich, snotty, Westernized types have led institutions, corporations and even countries to their downfall. Surely, being a manager necessitates some qualities other than the ones mentioned. In any case, I think you hit the nail on the head about LUMS; little in terms of knowledge, but it most definitely allows you to mingle with the rich and famous of Pakistan. Not that developing a social network is a bad thing, but a university should focus on imparting a quality education, not gear itself towards developing an image as a haven for the sons and daughters of businessmen, landlords and politicians. I have mixed feelings about any group that revels in exploiting class distinctions.

College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that`s the main point I`m trying to bring across. LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK. In fact, even in Pakistan, its status as the premier educational institution is under fire. What vexes me no length is the smug contentment shown by the administration at LUMS. Rejoicing in mediocrity is inexcusable, more so because it stems from a mistaken (dare I say arrogant) belief that LUMS is a top-notch research institute. To make matters worse, then there`s the constant disparaging of places like NED, FAST etc., which manage to achieve arguably more with fewer resources. Unless the people at LUMS reconcile themselves with reality, they`re not going to improve.

As far as doing well in the IT market goes, I think a fair chunk of the credit should be given where it`s due; our primary education sector. Unlike the universities in Pakistan, our schools are actually fairly competitive with the best around the world. Maybe it`s due to the fact that brain-drain does significantly impact them. Maybe not. The broader point here is that singling out the weak higher education sector as the driving force behind the stellar performance of Pakistanis abroad is perhaps unfair. There are countless other factors; excellent primary education (though only available to a small nano-percent of our population), social conditions where only the fittest (read most successful) survive and, yes, even some ``natural talent``.

ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization. Some of the ones I met at college have actually fared quite well and aren`t an entirely different breed from the rest of us. Even if the anecdotal evidence has some truth in it, again, I think you`re attributing too much to college education at places like LUMS. As I just mentioned, there are other, more powerful forces at play.

Georgia Tech I must confess is a great school. It was probably the lack of sleep more than anything else that let that one slip in. I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make). Putting aside Acadia, Kent, University of Florida etc., I think that the merits of the aerospace program at Kansas State are debatable and in any case, to the best of my knowledge, LUMS does not have an a program in that area. Nor, from what I`ve heard, does it plan to anytime soon.

trekker:

... one of them after completing his phd from cambridge is now a faculty member in the eecs dept at mit..

yeah! i keep hearing about him all the time from people. there was an ad in the newspaper about him too. i checked out the mit site and also asked a couple of people i know there and it turns out hes not really a prof... some kind of staff or something but definitely not faculty. from what i hear he has just been creating that impression just because he was involved as an assistant for some class or something. still impressive but only half the truth.

Thank you all for your comments. There are a few clarifications that I`d like to make:

1. The cost is of the FULL MBA PROGRAMME and not per annum as some of you have beent thinking
2. I have not raised any point about the financial aid programme of LUMS. I think it is pretty good. Frankly, most of the people in LUMS are on a financial aid. In fact, I think it`s probably the best in Pakistan.
3. a correction: I was informed by a few ppl that student to faculty ratio is calculated over all the student and faculty. What I have stated is an observation of the number of people in the courses that I have taken thusfar, which usually range from 40-180 per class. (And it is a norm).
4. Trekker #52: I am glad that an ex-LUMINITE also read this. However, about your comment:

``The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time.``

What I and the rest of the existing student body is complaining is about the current infra-structure not being able to support it. We all want LUMS to grow to a population of 20,000; but we insist: facilities first!

Bilal

HE:
[When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make)]

That is because it is a 2nd tier university in Canada. By second tier, it means it does not cover all types of courses; in particular, it does not have professional courses like law, medicine, dentistry or teaching. It is located in a suburb of Vancouver, Burnaby. Vancouver also has a first tier university, the University of British Columbia.
In its class though (comprehensive) SFU consistently scores at the top or near the top in the Maclean magazine rating, the most popular ratings in Canada.

I enjoy discussing universities. Better to have discussion on whose university is better, than whose ideology or country or religion is better.

HassanShah $53: “``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.`` ….I`m not sure what to make of that.”

These statements weren’t supposed to be connected. I just meant that in a Western country, the social skills of a LUMS graduate (which may have nothing to do with LUMS) would prove to be an asset in management.

“College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less.”

I agree. It just needs more funding and needs to be more accessible. But I don’t think it is as bad as people make it out to be. One rarely hears of a Pakistani flunking from a US university.

“LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK.”

I would agree, and this holds true for all good Pakistani schools. They can never have the funds to compete with the top-tier Western schools. They can only compete in Asia. However, the selection standards of places like LUMS (and NED, etc.) are probably quite a bit higher than the middle-tier US schools, hence the standard of their graduates will be higher than those of middle-tier US schools.

“ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization.”

Yes, an obvious generalization. I was just talking about the ones I have run across. Pakistanis who make it to the US, specially from middle class neighborhoods, tend to be more desparate and more resourceful, and thus more successful (in my experience). Though I could be wrong.

“I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc.”

Please read dost-mittar’s comments. I have recently learnt quite a bit about Canadian universities, since I help my clients recruit from there now. The only three well-known universities outside Canada are the ones you mentioned. They are generally in the top three always. McGill is the Harvard of Canada. Waterloo is the MIT of Canada. And U of Toronto is the only very large university in Canada (I believe it is the 6th largest in North America). It has the best Ph.D programs in Canada and the most degrees offered, and by far the largest research grants.

After these, come two more: Queens and Simon Fraser. Sometimes these sneak into the top three, in Mcleans magazine ratings (US News equivalent for Canada).

“and campus beauty does not a university make”

Yes, this is true. But one must make an exception for the ones that are spectacularly beautiful. The two that I have visited, that come to mind, are Simon Fraser and University of Colorado. Boulder, Colorado is a slice of heaven. I was actually accepted there, but decided not to go. Sometimes I still regret it. And the view from the Simon Fraser cafeteria’s balcony, which hangs out over a small peak, overlooking a green valley on one side and the Vancouver seacoast on the other side, is worth the price of admission, on its own. And Vancouver is rightly considered, by many, the most beautiful city in the world, with the most beautiful ladies in the world. So the most beautiful view, in the most beautiful campus, in the most beautiful city, surrounded by the most beautiful student body, has to be worth something. U of T, McGill and Waterloo campuses are quite stale, in comparison.

SR #41 Agreed with you that the day of the mutual fund is probably over, but only as far as MANAGED mutual funds go. This as I understand (based on my ``serious`` study of literature in the motley fool and morningstar) is because three-fourths of managed funds have in fact done WORSE than the stock market as a whole. index funds (like the vanguard 500) which are essentially unmanaged thus did better than the ``managed`` funds while involving very little fee (0.18 percent for vanguard 500 vs. 2.5 percent average for managed funds, as i recall).
When I mentioned a 30-40 year time horizon, i was thinking of pension funds for ``new adults`` (i.e. someone in his or her late teens/early twenties). vanguard may be gone by then, but surely the stock market will still be around. and even if the stock market has been totally transformed by then, the companies in which the stock investment is made will still be around. and even if they are not around (due to takeover for example) the stock would have been exchanged for some new stock.
However, i agree that it would not make sense to put all of one`s retirement money into a 30-40 year horizon. In that case, one could have a MIX: say anywhere from 20-90 percent (depending on one`s risk averseness) of portfolio in some kind of stock index funds, and the rest in specific industries or even companies.
Which brings us to the mining sector. Why do you favor it??

PS: We can continue the discussion on ilog if you wish, but let me know if you want to do that.

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030915.html

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030916.html

#54 by HassanShah

I know quite a few LUMS MBAs who are working for McKinsey, A.T.Kearney and Goldman Sachs in NYC. One of my former classmates is working at Citibank in London. Most of the folks have gone into Investment banks and Management consulting companies. Quite a few have joined Internet venture funds and startups in D.C.

Compared to the early and mid-1990s, the only difference now is that LUMS MBAs need to wait longer to find jobs. My IBA friends tell me that they also face the same problem. So I don`t think this has anything to do with LUMS or IBA. Too many MBAs are entering the market and many have returned from the U.S. because of visa problems/layoffs. Effectively, LUMS MBAs are now competing with U.S. qualified MBAs. Strangely, though most of the times, employers still prefer a LUMS MBA (albiet with good grades) to a foreign MBA from mid-tier universities.

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Perhaps my view of an educational institute is skewed, but I thought a college is meant to educate people. Not to merely serve as a social networking club.
++

LUMS is much more than a social networking club. The average MBA student at LUMS spends 70-85 hours a week in class, group discussions, assignments and case studies. Networking, no doubt, is one of the benefits of joining LUMS. But it is not the entire picture.

To put it bluntly, professional education is not about education alone. Networking and soft skills are equally crucial, especially during an economic slowdown.

Graduate studies are very different from elementary school, high school or college. The focus in grad school is specialization and networking, not general education. It has to be seen as an investment, not an exercise in character-building. It is no different from a business investment which ultimately must yield a financial return.

On the contrary, I think this is the best school to go to for learning business and management sciences or art. It teaches you, by examples, how to maximize profits by squeezing available resources to the limit. Learn it well as you have to implement it routinely in your practical life to come.
You and your school are part of the commodity market, where education is the product that you two are exchanging. You want more bang for your buck and school wants thicker stream of cash flows flowing. The school has to grow and growth comes from raising money. You are the capital providers. Did you say they are admitting more students than they can handle? No! they are accumulating more money and guess what, one can always handle more money. You know that.
And don’t sweat too much about the quality. Think of this way, you are far superior than those third grade government school poodles even if you don’t learn nothin’. When you walk into that interview room with your LUMS chip on your shoulder, you will get priority over crippled public school graduates with no membership in the Rich People Club (I am implying(I am not implying that u are part of the club but the majority is).
The quality wavier applies to you only if you decide to remain in the country, but if you want to go to Umrica, for instance, then it may turn out to be a whole different ball game.

Caution: response may sound bitter for I sensed a brat in 2nd to last sentence of your post.

#56 by JacobianMatrix

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yeah! i keep hearing about him all the time from people. there was an ad in the newspaper about him too. i checked out the mit site and also asked a couple of people i know there and it turns out hes not really a prof... some kind of staff or something but definitely not faculty. from what i hear he has just been creating that impression just because he was involved as an assistant for some class or something. still impressive but only half the truth.
++

I believe he is a Research Assistant in the Ubiquitous Computing group at MIT. During his PhD at Cambridge, he contributed to the Oxygen Project and now he is in the process of setting up a Research institute in Lahore. Apparently, the govt has apportioned a grant of $30m for this purpose. More details will probably emerge only after this project materializes.

JacobianMatrix #56

Yeah so his formal title is Postdoctoral Associate - who cares. But the fact remains that he is an ``instructor`` for courses at MIT. e.g. http://cag.lcs.mit.edu/classes/6.898/ and not just ``TA`` or ``staff``. And being an instructor for an MIT graduate-level course sure beats being a full professor at a run-of-the-mill US college.