LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

Touché.

Ciao

pakistan and management bat kuch jami nahi

Interesting article. My name`s Jude and I`m the features editor for TFT, if you are interested in writing for us send me an email to judeheaton@mail.com and we can take it from there.

my sympathies. this really sounds like one of the lower-rung indian univs/management schools where one wouldn`t pay anything like $11,000.

Bilal i agree with you completely. the supposedly `online` registration system in particular is nothing but a hassle and a disappointment. By the time one does find the server free to register, most courses are blocked and students are left with all the social science ones to fill up their credits.

As for the faculty `justifying` everything...heh! that is what they seem to be propagating to their students as well! a pity.

Lastly i was amazed at the way students have to misquote their `personal information` inorder to be eligble for a scholarship, which btw rarely considers students with a good GPA. All one has to do is reflect `poor income` to get on the scholarship list. So much for `pride of LUMS`!

LUMS is still a good university, esp. when compared to the rest of the hoodlums, BUT they NEED to maintain their reputation which might very soon go down under. All educational institutions face such probelems at one time or the other, however, LUMS managment should take practical measures to live up to their claims of being `the best in Pakistan`.

I have sent the post to two of my most `die hard` LUMS supporters...Let us see what they have to say about it...

The cost of MBA was no surpise...Pakistanis, especailly Punjabis, are known to put their money where their mouth is, and when it comes to `brand names` no one does it better than Pakistanis/Punjabis...

The Babar Ali empire is known for its monopolistic ventures...companies that fleece consumers/customers...why should LUMS be any different from Tri-Pack, Packages, or Nestle? There is hardly any competition in the local market as far as LUMS is concerned and like the oil companies they can charge whatever they feel like..who cares what other are charging!

Brave attempt young man! I hope it helps!

`` LUMS` MBA Program (rated at #23 in Asia – Asiaweek May 5, 2000) costs US $11,957, compared to National University of Singapore (which is rated at #2) and costs US $7,180 while Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad (which is rated at #1) costs US $1,967. Quality is the reason parents are willing to bear the relatively higher cost of education here. ``

Jeeezus!!! Why would you guys pay 12 grand a year to study in Pakistan? Maybe IIMs in India can charge $6000 per student for a quota of Pakistanis. Mmy brother is an IIM Calcutta grad and I thought his fees were very high. Apparently not.

jude

you write..... My name`s Jude and I`m the features editor for TFT, if you are interested in writing for us send me an email to judeheaton@mail.com and we can take it from there.

...and if you are interested in writing for chowk please send me an email (temporal@chowk.com) and we can take it from there.

rgds,

t

bilal, the reason LUMS is going down is, as you pointed out, because of the large number of students that are admitted into the program...many of these students have below average SAT I and SAT II scores; where the merit used to be determined by an inhouse LUMS test and interview, it is now judged on the basis of SAT scores - and surprisingly, those with lower scores are admitted easily into the Bsc program. I know many people who graduated from LUMS a few years back and have excellent jobs and have also been admitted into foreign universities easily, but lately this has been changing...what I find really weird is the attitude of the faculty of LUMS. I have never seen a more pompous and arrogant group of people teaching anywhere in the world, let alone in Pakistan! They actually have the nerve to say that their degree is better than the degree of a good American university, which, after having studied in a good American university, I can safely say is pure crap. LUMS has its merits and it still produces good, skillful people but it really needs to get itself in shape before it can make any tall claims.

It seems to me that the LUMS is that one eyed man who is king in the land of blind; but he is king nonetheless.

Jude...

We met at the Mekaal Hassan Concert...

I am Mateen Kaul`s friend...

-YLH

12k per year is quite a fee. Where does the money go? And why do people keep paying it? This would indicate there is a market for another good private university in Lahore.

I suppose it all comes down to supply and demand.

LUMS transforms to SLUM

Why is it surprising at all? No institution thrives (or decays) in isolation. What you describe at LUMS is simply a reflection of what goes on in the society at large. What seems remarkable and worthy of credit is that it didn`t get much worse much earlier. On a relative scale, I`m sure SLUM still shines like a bright star. As Urstruly`s points out, in The Country of the Blind the one-eyed is still king.

One of the two biggest problems of Pakistan is over population (the other biggie is fresh water shortage). The growth rate is higher than all the other top population countries. China, India, Russia, US, Bangladesh and Indonesia may have a larger total polulation but the Paki growth rate is higher than all of them. Only countries like Afghanistan, Oman, Kenya and Saudi Arabia (all fairly small populations) have higher growth rates. During the 1980s when Zina-ul-Haq cut off family planning funding the growth rate shot up to 3.2 which was highest in the world at the time (along with Afghanistan).

If current trend holds, by 2030 Pakistan will have the world`s THIRD LARGEST population (only after India and China). You`ll probably have five kids to a room then so why complain about three per room today?

...SR

LUMS is hardly a slum ofcourse.... the campus looks like such a fun place to be with all the dating, hanging out, partying going on in and around LUMS...

However the author is spot on with the conclusions on academic standards...

38:temporal

That was good.

JudeEaton, the poacher, has not met some real Pakistanis. The rag tft is a reflection of the editor it picks.

But then in the boot-licking community of crowswans nothing is demeaning or dishonourable. Cocacolonised and Mcbuggered crowswans shamelessly wiggle,wobble & waddle their bums & bumpers.

$12K is the total fee for both years of MBA.

Still damn expensive. One reason- heck the only reason - I chose to not accept their offer of admission.

SR:

I need to steal some more books from you. How has Karachi Stock Exchange been treating you?

Despite it`s claims to support the less priviledged classes it still seems to welcome the elite only. Is this it`s way to `maintain the standard` by discouraging the ones who are not able to spend that much money for a two year course in the institution and thus keeping their noses high by giving itself the `hard to get` look, thus increasing its value? I`ve been thinking about enrolling myself in the MBA programme next year since I`m almost done with my engineering, but now feel that going for an MSc specialization in my field of study would be a much better option and worth the money.

It was coming...LUMS has finally reached the pivotal point where the management of infrastructure becomes critical to its reputation.
I hope your article draws sufficient concern to amend the quality at LUMS .

Mantolives, `hey spastic` to Kaul from me...

Having studied at LUMS myself, I can understand author`s angst.

A few points need clarification.

Firstly, most of the problems that the author mentioned pertain to the undergrad program, not the MBA program. The student-faculty ratio in MBA program is excellent and even the facilities are sufficient, though more would certainly help.

The MBA program at LUMS is quite mature. It was started in 1986. The undergrad program is relatively new. It was launched in 1994. The first batch comprised 70 students, the second one 85 students and the third 120 students. After this the batch size jumpted to 150 and 210.

This basically means that university population is 100 MBA students (1st year and 2nd year) and about 600-650 undergrad students. This brings the PC-Student ratio to 170/750 or approx 1:4. Compare this with Harvard (ratio 1:10), Cambridge Univ (1:12), Yale (1:9), Princeton (1:8) and MIT (1:6). The LUMS ratio is still better than all these prestigious universities.

Most U.S. students usually get their own laptop or desktop in their dorms. Given that PCs cost a dime in Pakistan nowadays, buying a cheaper one from Hafeez Center wouldn`t be a bad investment at all.

Nevertheless, the space problem in dorms is still an issue. Where do you put a desktop PC when you don`t even have space for a third bed!

HisExcellency: Are the total no. of students in LUMS, at any one time, only 750? That is not a whole lot.

Also, I heard LUMS now has a Ph.D. program, and is starting a law program. Is that true?

And what is the student to prof. ratio? As well as the standard of the graduates, in comparison to the ones you saw in the USA. I get resumes from LUMS grads, every now and then. I interviewed Comp. Sci grad, recently. He seemed to be alright. About as good as an average US grad with a BS degree.

They seem to have a good faculty. Within Pakistan, the only institution that has a better one, would be Aga Khan, according to my research.

I was approached to teach a small course at their executive center recently. A person familiar with those programs told me they charge around 25k to 30k per week (or something) to the individuals attending those courses. Is that true? I asked them about how much they pay their profs. to get an idea of how much to ask for. I was informed the senior professors make 2 lakh + per month. While the dean(s) can make around 5 lakh. And the associate professor level teachers are in the 1 lakh per month range. Do these sound accurate?

Romair & HE

Excuse me gentlemen but I think the system of higher education in whole Paksitan in particular and at all levels in general is a heap of garbage. The whole ministry of education, deans, rectors, and chancellors deserve to be fed to the pigs. The students who manage to come to foreign universities and perform well do it because of their god given talent and only because of that. I think its God who deserves all the credit.

Urstruly #21: ``The students who manage to come to foreign universities and perform well do it because of their god given talent and only because of that. I think its God who deserves all the credit.``

God does deserve some of the credit. But I don`t think all of it. The students deserve a lot of credit also.

I think the higher education system in Pakistan is bad, but I wouldn`t go as far as you have gone in criticising it. LUMS is the 23rd best business school in Asia. I wouldn`t call that bad. The overall system in Pakisatn is definitely under-funded. And needs to be expanded a lot. But all these students must have learnt something at these universities in Pakistan, if they can do so well in the USA universities. It cannot all be natural talented. Us Pakistanis aren`t that naturally gifted. Are we?

I didn`t have any trouble transitioning from a Pakistani university to an American one. The level of students was about the same. In fact, most of the students were actually Indian and Chinese. The facilities in the US university were much better. The air conditioning was great. Sports facilities were excellent. There were a lot more professors (many of whom were Indian and Chinese also). The cheerleaders for the sports teams were much better looking (most of whom were not Indian). The parties were a lot bigger. But, on the whole, the curriculum wasn`t any more difficult. And it cost a lot more than Pakistani universities.

Is it true that the tuition for King Edwards Medical College is less than the tuition for a good children`s nusery school?

Here is some good news, for LUMS folks:

``LUMS in CSIDC Top 10!

``Shop Easy`` project, designed and implemented by students of Lahore University of Management Sciences, was selected for World Finals of IEEE Computer Society`s fourth annual International Design Competition(CSIDC 2003), starting today (June 28th) in Washington D.C. The LUMS team made it to the top 10, out of more than 170 teams for some of the best universities of the world. To reach the finals, LUMS beat some heavy weights like Carnegie Mellon, Iowa State, Rochester Institute of Technology, University of Florida at Gainesville, University of Massachusetts at Boston, IIT Bombay, IIT Roorkee, Delft University, Nanyang Technological University, University of British Columbia, University of Hong Kong and University of Queensland. (http://www.lums.edu.pk/law_school.html)

#21 by Urstruly

Are you talking about LUMS in particular? I don`t know enough about the other Pakistani universities, to comment on the general level of higher education. Can you be more specific?

++
The whole ministry of education, deans, rectors, and chancellors deserve to be fed to the pigs
++

The ministry of education has revamped itself lately. The new minister (Zubeda Jalal) is actually very dedicated about increasing literacy in Pakistan. However, the ministry is presently focussed on female literacy, which is in critical conditions especially in NWFP and Baluchistan.

The govt is not directly involved in higher education. It is attracting private investment in that sector and giving grants (e.g. to hire faculty).

#20 by Romair

All the figures quoted are accurate. LUMS teachers are paid exorbitantly and also get soft loans for car and housing. Recently a friend of mine got a JD from a U.S. university. After spending a few months hunting unsuccessfully for jobs here, he decided to go back to Pakistan. He was offered a 1 lakh per month salary as Assistant Professor by LUMS. (LUMS is starting a new Law Programme).

If you visit the LUMS website, you will actually find visiting professors from Harvard, McGill, Essex and UCLA on the faculty list. When I was at LUMS some time back, there were also two Indian visiting professors who used to fly over from Ahmedabad to Lahore for a few weeks every month. Apparently, Pakistan govt and LUMS board of directors has given a huge grant (something like $30 million) to LUMS just to recruit faculty.

#20 by Romair

I stand corrected. I was overlooking the PhD and MSc Comp Sci programmes. I am sure there must be another 40-60 students in that programme.

The student-faculty ratio is poor no doubt. But this too is more of a problem in the MSc and undergrad programmes. Most of the MBA professors do not teach any undergrad or MSc classes. As a result, the student/faculty ratio in MBA program is still very good.

It seems like LUMS management is giving preferential treatment to MBA program and experimenting with the other programs.

Romair

`` LUMS is the 23rd best business school in Asia. ``

I don`t know what it means in real world. For example, the engineering college I attended (NED ) had department of electronics which was designated as the ``Center of Excellence`` by Japenese ministry of education, their ministry of Industry, and couple of other institutions and regularly received funding from them. The first semester class usually consisted of 250+ students, since it was the only institution in Pak offering electronics engineering, other than Mehran Engineering (which was controlled by jiye sindh and decoits and any non-Sindhi if dared entered there was found to be hanging from one of the trees in the campus). So one teacher and 250+ students in the class; students literally sitting on each others shoulders; and a secod year student couldn`t tell the differenece between amperage and voltage; well a lala from FATA couldn`t tell that even in 4th year. The computer lab was a glass room where about 10 comodores along with about 5 PCs with 4.7 MHz speed resided. Only one computer had a color monitor and rumor had it that one had to sleep with the lab incharge to get to work on that. Only students from electronics department were required to work on computers but students ususally avoided the computer lab like little children avoid the dark closet. Only some hardcore nerds, who didn`t bathe for months were seen in the computer labs. I, though not an electronics student, managed to get in the lab and got familiarized myself with the machine but when one day I found lab incharge eyeing me I decided to buy my own - bad se badnaam bura. I sold my bike and bought a 10 Mhz pc; I became the king in the land of blind. But one day when we saw that HP had broght out its latest 50 Mhz Pc into the market we all fell down to prostrate in humility.

HisExcellency #25: Thanks for the info. I had a feeling my info on salaries was correct.

It the senior professors and Deans get between 2-5 lakhs, then, this would mean that the Vice Chancellor probably gets between Rs. 5 lakh to Rs 8 lakh per month. This would be my guess. This is around what the IT heads of major US companies in Pakistan make. The senior IT engineers/managers that return to Pakistan, I think, can make in the 1.5 to 2.5 lakh/month range (I believe).

Its hard to spend that much money in Pakistan, in one month.

LUMS has some one week to one month training courses for local managers, I was told. And they bring in instructors from abroad to their executive center to teach these courses. Would you happen to know how much those guys get paid, per week? Per hour?

Urstruly #27: Your long story was quite interesting. I am sure NED is not ranked anywhere in Asia. Though NED students seem to be in the highest nos. amongst the Pakistani IT professionals in Silicon Valley. And they all make fun of NED. Yet I have found nearly all of them to be quite bright. And most of them have MS degrees in technical fields. So they must have learnt something.

By the way could you expand on the following, a bit more. It`s an interesting twist in the story:

``when one day I found lab incharge eyeing me``

rozaiba #17

Karachi stock exchange is no place for decent people to hang around. I won`t ever touch anything of KSE with a thousand foot pole. The happenings in KSE make that den of thieves called NYSE look like a church choir. As I`ve mentioned before, that what goes on in the stock market is basically organized theft which has the sanction of law. But that applies to NASDAQ and NYSE etc. KSE does not even get the qualifier ``organized`` before the ``theft.`` Actually ``theft`` is too kind a word. KSE conducts `rape & robbery.` Don`t know if you`ve noticed or not, but the Shaukat Aziz financial administration of that country is following all the dirty tricks of Rubin & Greenspan and have thus managed to create an unsustainable stock bubble which creates an absurdly overvalued equity market that cannot be justified by any valuation metric and will result in yet another round of mass rip-off of the investing public of Pakistan.

You`re welcome to any of the books, as long as I eventually get them back.

...SR

16: Azure
Your claims are unfounded. It may appear that the elite classes are the only ones welcome, but you might need to take a deeeeeper look into the whole `hard to get` image.
It might have been that at the time LUMS only had an MBA programme, they selected very few people and charged exorbitant tuition & attained the `hard to get` image...and then they suddenly became `elite` when they moved to a bigger and better campus with the help of funding from the World Bank.
However, the BSc. programme no doubt caters to give an OPTION (at the least) to students after their A levels or FSc. to choose between going to a public institute or one abroad if they have the resources or the talent. The fact is that the BSc. programme at LUMS offers more scholarships and funding options than any other private university charging almost the same amount of fee for their BSc. Programme. These universities have made high and false claims of affiliations and have an academic curriculum outline replicated to that of LUMS. The point I am making here is not to defame other institutes but to falsify your claims of the ‘hard to get’ image.
I personally know of several exceptionally intelligent people who having deserved the scholarship (and didn’t have the resources to afford studying at LUMS otherwise) study their whole four years without paying anything. However, I also know of the exceptionally intelligent who won the scholarship, didn’t need it because they had enough resources to afford the fee, that being an ethical decision left by LUMS to the person to either forgo it for the next best student or keep it (I do have my reservations on this opportunity to choose). Despite the full scholarships, I have stood in line to pay my bill with people from the remotest areas and have seen with my own eyes their bills being slashed to one-fourth.

So your idea of LUMS being `hard to get` with `keeping their noses high` needs to be appraised, because it’s always easier to criticize something further when it’s already been put on the spot.
Azure, if its of any consolation…”We remain committed to ensure that no one admitted to our academic programmes is prevented from joining LUMS due to financial constraints. We offer generous financial assistance to those who need it.”

FYI: http://www.lums.edu.pk/lums_outreach.htm

LUMS invites students with exceptional Matric and FA/FSc results (75% & above) to apply through its National Outreach Programme for a four year BSc (Hons) degree.
Objectives:
To facilitate this process, we have started the National Outreach Programme, which has the following objectives:
Identify bright and motivated students all over Pakistan at the Matric level who are keen to pursue higher education at LUMS.
Work with schools and colleges all over Pakistan to encourage their principals and teachers to help their students aspire for admission into the BSc (Hons) programme at LUMS.
Provide assistance to potential applicants to prepare for the entrance exams at LUMS.
Provide full financial assistance in the form of scholarships to all those candidates who qualify for admission through the National Outreach Programme.

#27 by Urstruly

I am quite amazed by your story. Did this happen recently?

I am an NEDian - BE(EE) and then obtained a couple of other degrees in the US. NED is no Caltech or MIT but it is no pushover. Given the environment and the resources, NED (even UET) has produced remarkable professionals. For Rs 100/- per semester I would rank NED one of the finest schools on this planet. There are over 20 engineers from my class (out of 122) in the US - they include a tenured Professor and Chowk writer (guess who?), senior managers in Motorola, Juniper, Cisco, Cypress, HP/Compaq, Synopsys, ... and many more. These individuals are as good as anyone out there. The same can be said for UET - a number of fantastic engineers have come out of UET.

Anyway.

LUMS is a good place BUT IBA accomplished similar results with way less expense. I would be inclined to argue that Pakistan or any poor country stands to benefit way more by replicating NED, UET or IBA. Since it costs less, more students benefit. LUMS is not a mainstream education resource - it is a boutique model and it should be treated as such.

I`m stunned by a few of the earlier posts tooting the horn that LUMS is right up there with the Ivy-plus schools in the US. At the expense of belabouring the blatantly obvious, it`s not.

Assuming for the briefest of instants that there was some modicum of truth in this nonsensical belief, one wonders why all and sundry related to the LUMS Board of Governors are lining up for admission to educational institutions abroad. Clearly, there is a wide gulf between LUMS and the better institutes around the world. The teacher to student ratio might be lower than that at Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale and MIT, but does that really count for anything ? A statistic is a numerical datum and nothing more. It does not translate to greater ease of access of faculty and increased personal attention. Even if it did, the point remains that the faculty at LUMS is scarcely much to rave and rant about. A smattering of post-graduates from respected research universitites in the US and UK, and a whole bunch of people from places one never knew existed till the day one stumbled across the faculty profiles up on the web (as an aside, that link no longer works now).

Then there seems to be the myth about LUMS graduates being admitted by the dozen to research programs at some of the best schools around. Again, there`s no shred of truth in this. Graduates from UET and NED greatly outnumber those from LUMS at most places. Although some really smart individuals from LUMS do occasionally manage to end up at places like CMU, one swallow does not a summer make.

Coming now to the long rants about financial aid, lets face it... LUMS offers a few loans and one or two merit-based scholarships, but nothing along the lines of grants. Surprisingly, one would have thought they could manage that with the exorbitant fees they charge. Almost every other place in the world that fleeces its students for so much does.

Sadly, LUMS is run as a business and little more. It achieves a huge profit for those who run it, a few scraps of paper for those who attend it and some unwarranted praise by the people in the Higher Education Committee who see it as the panacea to all of Pakistan`s ails. Of course, the first and the third group just mentioned are actually the same.

Pity no one spares a thought for places like IBA, NED, UET, GIK etc. that provide quality education without the associated frills and gaping hole in the pocket. Maybe some day we`ll realise that what makes an quality educational institute is not a fabulous campus, but quality academics and a concerted effort not to raise the financial bar so high that income tax returns have more to do with admissions than SAT I math scores.

re: romair

...stop making an a$$ of yourself citing some anecdotal info about ``LUMS`` having beaten US schools and IIT....hardly anyone at goldman sachs or McKinsey or any elite firm has any idea what the fcuk LUMS is, but i guarantee you IIT is on everyone`s radar, which is where McKinsey`s last CEO was from....

freemysoul #31 I believe that LUMs was the baby of a Pakistani World Bank staff who took leave from the Bank (this was at least 10-15 years ago) to start LUMs. I dont think any Bank funds were lent for this purpose though. Are you sure you are right?

SR #30 Arent you the one who said ``Buy Gold`` an year ago on chowk? And lo and behold, we now find that gold has risen as if it was on extra-strength viagra. You, sir, are a financial wizard. What is your advice on this: buying plain vanilla vanguard 300 index funds and putting them in roth ira for someone to sit on for 30-40 years. make sense?

s2 #37: I agree.

I know a lot of Pakistanis from NED in Silicon Valley. In fact, it seems like NED sends the most engineers from Pakistan, to Silicon Valley, by far. Though I don`t have exact statistics. All the NED guys seem to be doing well. Most have MS degrees, and are well-adjusted into the industry. Doing as well as anyone from any university from South Asia, that I have met.

Interestingly, they all do have complains, similar to Urstruly`s (though not to that extreme), about NED. And they make fun of it, a lot. Interestingly, their combined income in the USA must be tens of millions/year, if not higher. They could build another NED, if they wanted.

#34 by HassanShah

++
I`m stunned by a few of the earlier posts tooting the horn that LUMS is right up there with the Ivy-plus schools in the US.
++

Which posts are you referring to?? The one I wrote was about student-PC ratios. And in that department, LUMS is definitely faring better than most Ivy schools. This is a fact.

Student-teacher ratios and average GMAT/GRE/SAT scores are quite another matter. In this realm, LUMS is not as good as the top 10 U.S. colleges or any of the Ivy schools. But it is definitely better than the rest. Given a choice between College of Wooster, Grinnell, Oberlin, Rutgers, Texas A&M, UC Santa Monica, Ohio-Weseleyan... and LUMS, I would pick LUMS any day. You get better education for less than half the price.

++
Even if it did, the point remains that the faculty at LUMS is scarcely much to rave and rant about
++

This is quite an uninformed comment. LUMS faculty members have PhDs and MBAs/MSEs from Wharton/Penn, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, UC Berkeley, Cambridge, UT Austin (MS program), Univ of Sussex, American Univ of Beirut, Columbia Univ, Urbana-Champaigne, etc. You name it. I am not counting Assistant Professors yet to keep the list short. I can even give you names of these people if you think I am bluffing here.

++
Sadly, LUMS is run as a business and little more.
++

Take a peek at U.S.News and you will realize that professional education is an expensive investment all over the world. Perhaps you don`t know that after graduation, it takes 3-5 years for the average Wharton MBA graduate to pay off his student loans.

Moreover, in most U.S. colleges they don`t offer grants as a policy. Students are only offered loans at reduced interest rates. International students don`t even get loans. So you basically have to view an MBA or MS as an investment. Compared to foreign universities, LUMS is still a cheaper bargain since you can pay off most student loans within 3 years of graduating.

++
Pity no one spares a thought for places like IBA, NED, UET, GIK etc. that provide quality education without the associated frills and gaping hole in the pocket
++

IBA, NED, UET and GIK are no doubt good schools. In fact, most employers prefer graduates of these schools to LUMS graduates because the latter are hard to retain. You offer a LUMS graduate 5K more, and he will switch jobs in an instant. Most LUMS graduates work for a few years and then invariably go abroad for a Phd/MBA.

But in terms of quality especially in Business management and Computer Science, LUMS is way way ahead of the rest. Better facilities and better faculty are part of the reason. But the most critical success factor is that LUMS employs the ``Case Method`` in its MBA program. LUMS is the only Pakistani business school that publishes its own cases. (I don`t know if IBA is also teaching with the ``Case Method`` now. I checked about 4 years back, and then they didn`t).

#23 by Romair

Thanks for your post, sir. I read the news item in CIO magazine a couple of months ago. The article was all praise for the LUMS team since it had outclassed relatively well-established colleges like IITs, Tel Aviv Univ. and quite a few U.S. colleges.

Who cares if a bunch of Indians don`t acknowledge it as an achievement?? Carnegie Mellon has the best Computer Science programme in the world (along with MIT and a few other schools). The entire industry including the big 5 consulting companies rely on CMU`s software classification system for their blueprints. Therefore, when CMU organizes a contest, almost all major IT vendors sponsor it. The U.S. government also keeps a tab on such developments because the Department of Defence conducts a lot of its research at CMU. Hence, a good performance at CMU is bound to be noticed and acknowledged in circles that really matter.

tahmed #35

Ahmed sahib, thank you for your generosity of praise. I`d like to point out though, that in this business there are NO wizards, ever, anywhere. Whosoever claims to be one is surely a con-man. Beware of them.

This has nothing to do with LUMS, but I hope that others will forgive this digression.

FYI, in the i-Log section I now regularly post material related to this sort of stuff... very few people have enough interest in such matters for this to be a general topic of articles, therefore the i-Logs. USER ID is FOMC-minutes.


Gold & mining stocks

Yes, I`ve been advocating gold investment for now almost two years and the gold bull market has only just barely begun. Look for a price pull-back in the near future for more buying opportunities. In a few years get ready to see the fire-works. The real thing is gold the metal itself, but the headline dramma will, unfortunately, take place in the mining stocks. The gold mining stock mania will put the internet mania of 1999 to shame. There will then be more hype and fraud and rediculous over-pricing of mining stocks than anyone can think possible today. That mania will exceed the Dutch Tulip mania. That will be time to SELL, not buy, as the lemmings will be buying then. Today is the time to buy. The only stocks worth putting money in (for ``growth``) are the mining stocks. They are today where semiconductors, internets and telcoms were in 1989. Beware the coming mania in gold and silver stocks. There is no fever like gold fever.

[``...vanguard 300 index funds ... in roth ira for ... 30-40 years?...``]

To start with, 30-40 years is an unrealistic time horizon. We`ll all be dead and the world will be an unrecognizable place compared to today. Who knows the US dollar may have long been replaced by some other monetary instrument by then and vanguard may have gone the way of the do-do bird. The heyday of the mutual funds is gone. They will be remembered with the same distaste and mistrust as were the ``National Trusts`` of the 1920s after the depression. Today is time to GET OUT of bond mutual funds and equity mutual funds (of any and every kind), not the other way. Put your hard-earned money in tangibles and get out of paper assets.

I keep harping upon the issue of fiat paper money like a broken record. But I`m not alone by any means. Please look up the following link, it may perk up your interest:

http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press2003/pr073103.htm

...SR

#39 by HisExcellency

Which posts ? A bunch of the earlier ones regarding some competition where LUMS managed to edge past CMU and a couple of the IIT schools, another one on the MBA student to faculty ratio being great and the one you mentioned about the student to PC ratio being better than the Ivy-plus schools.

Bottom line: all of these factors don`t count for anything. Using them as crutches to support the claim that LUMS is an institution of international repute (even alluding to the fact that it stacks up well against some of the top schools in the US and UK) is merely a manifestation of an inability to accept the current mediocrity the school is mired in. I`ve already made my point regarding student to faculty ratios and the less said about the even more ludicrous student to computer ratio, the better (some high schools in the US have ratios of 1:1 -- that doesn`t automatically qualify them as quality centres for research and learning). Using machines to fill the void created by all else is an approach that is bound to be doomed.

You get a LUMS education for half what it costs at places like Grinnell, Oberlin, Ohio-Wesleyan ? Ahem. Not true. Most of those places are quick to offer grant-based financial aid. LUMS, on the other hand, seems to believe most stringently in being penny-wise (ironic isn`t it that it`s easier for people to acquire education abroad than it is at a university in Pakistan). I`m not even sure that the education at LUMS is better than some of the places you mentioned.

Faculty at LUMS ? True. There is a small set of faculty members who`ve got their degrees at places like Harvard, Berkeley and Stanford. In fact, I mentioned as much in my post. What I was more concerned about, however, was that the rest of the faculty hails from places I`ve never even heard of (American University of Beirut being one of them). Not convinced ? Well, if you go through the latest cached versions of the faculty profiles on google, rest assured you`ll see the following pop up more often than once:

University of Florida
Simon Fraser University
Kansas State University
Georgia Institute of Technology
Acadia University
University of Kent
University of Texas at Arlington
...
(the list goes on)

The graduates from Stanford and Berkeley may go a long way towards painting a rosy picture of things, but there`s a whole lot more than what meets the eye. In fact, I think that about sums it up. LUMS is an excellent marketing ploy... a lemon.

It takes a Wharton MBA graduate 3-5 years to pay of his or her loan ? Keep in mind that an average Wharton grad has already been earning for a good several years before being saddled with the loan and is in fairly decent financial condition not to warrant financial aid. Even if that isn`t the case, keep in mind that an average Wharton grad has much better job prospects than an average LUMS grad. Finally, if you`re still not satisfied, let me remind you that the comparison isn`t really even valid. LUMS is no Wharton and any such pretensions are quite misplaced. Maybe once LUMS improves it`s finance program to be the best in the world I won`t grudge them the right to charge outrageous fees.

Most US universities don`t offer financial assistance ? I beg to differ. Clearly you associate too much wealth with all of us who`ve obtained degrees abroad.

LUMS is better than IBA, GIK, FAST, NED, UET ? You`ll have a hard time convincing me of that my friend. In fact, the only real edge LUMS provides is that you get to mingle with the rich elite of the country and might be able to find jobs more easily that way. I`ve grilled quite a few people who recently obtained their CS degrees from LUMS and I have no doubt that the candidates from FAST, NED and UET are far better qualified.

Rsaxena #37,

I do believe that the IIT comment was unnecessary. Good institutions should be secure
enough in their standings - the IITs have consolidated their position as good undergraduate institutions and do not need to be defended in all fora.

HisExcellency #various,

Sorry, but you are using completely erroneous criteria to judge the standing of an
academic institution, and HassanShah is essentially right on the money here. I know nothing about LUMS, but institution building is a time-consuming business and premature comparisons with more well established universities will seldom be taken seriously.

#37 by rsaxena

IIT? Right... temme about it? I can give ya names of dozens of your IIT brats who got nuffin better to do than smoke weed n shag gals 24/7 here in london. If you can not rate... do not hate either. And didn`t any one teah ya at your IIT that

Pride Hath A Fall ?

Learn n Live a lil now.
peace!

Hassan Shah #42: “CS degrees from LUMS and I have no doubt that the candidates from FAST, NED and UET are far better qualified.”

I have run across a large group from NED. A small group from FAST. And one or two odd from LUMS. So not enough of a spread to consider it a clear opinion (except for NED). I would say in CS, I found all of them to be about the same. The NED guys were generally more middle-class, with weaker English, but more resourceful. FAST were in the middle in both. And the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. If my company was on the line and, I were to hire an engineer, I would hire the NED guys. If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy. The FAST person would be in between, on both.

On the whole, all of them, have proven to be quite good. And have been easily able to compete in the North American IT market, specially the ones who went on to get Masters degree. That is why I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani education system is bad as everyone makes it out to be. They all couldn’t have made it due to just natural talent. I just think the education system is under-funded and only caters to a small group, since there are very few universities.

Interestingly, the group, on the average, I have found to be the weakest are the ABCD Pakistani candidates. The ones who grow up here. They are no match to the ones who come from Pakistan.

The other country, surprisingly, that I have noticed quite good candidates from, is Iran. And they have a higher percentage of girls in the field than Pakistan. So the girls seem to be getting some good education there, apparently. And Iran seems to make really good movies, that win an award or two in international film festivals. The mullahs may have gotten something straightened out there.

These are all based on personal experience and not any statistical data.

“Well, if you go through the latest cached versions of the faculty profiles on google, rest assured you`ll see the following pop up more often than once:

University of Florida
Simon Fraser University
Kansas State University
Georgia Institute of Technology
Acadia University
University of Kent
University of Texas at Arlington”

I cannot vouch for the other ones, but some of these are actually very good universities. Simon Fraser was ranked the best university in Canada a few years ago, ahead of universities like McGill. It is usually in the top five in Canada, and has the most beautiful campus I have ever seen. Georgia Tech is widely recognized as a good school in its areas of speciality. Kansas State University is pretty good in the Aerospace area (though not as good as University of Kansas, which is one of the best in this area along with Stanford, MIT, Univ. of Colorado etc.).

#42 by HassanShah

++
keep in mind that an average Wharton grad has much better job prospects than an average LUMS grad. Finally, if you`re still not satisfied, let me remind you that the comparison isn`t really even valid. LUMS is no Wharton and any such pretensions are quite misplaced.
++

Job prospects for Wharton grads were only bright while the economy was doing great. Now they have to wait for months to get offers. In fact, 75% of the class of 2002 had to sit out for 8 months before getting any offers.

LUMS is no Wharton, but it is certainly the best MBA school in Pakistan. IBA is a close second, but all the other schools are definitely way behind LUMS. Every year the key offerings from Citibank, ABN-AMRO, Shell, Maersk, and other multinationals still go to LUMS grads.

And here is another thing. A LUMS MBA is internationally recognized as well. I am not sure if IBA enjoys the same reputation that it did 20 years ago.

saynanza: IIT? Right... temme about it? I can give ya names of dozens of your IIT brats who got nuffin better to do than smoke weed n shag gals 24/7 here in london. If you can not rate... do not hate either. And didn`t any one teah ya at your IIT that

Oh please..don`t diss something just because it`s Indian..IIT`s standard is so much better than LUMS, there`s no comparison. What does LUMS boast of? A mediocre faculty, snooty kids paying a hell of a lot to get standard education and a big campus (which, btw, is much much much smaller than that of the smallest American university)...LUMS used to be good, but now a lot of the teachers who worked with the instiution to make it good have left, they`ve gone back to where they came from because of the current mafia that is ruling LUMS now...some faculty, and I say this from personal experience, in the social sciences dept actually have the nerve to insinuate that a LUMS degree and education is better than that of a good American univeristy..insane! shocking! HELLOOO?? wake up and smell the coffeeeee!

#42 by HassanShah

I don`t think any top Ivy school in the US has a 1:1 student/computer ratio. Even MIT has a 1:7 ratio. Nevertheless, I agree with you that a good student/computer ratio is not as important as student/teacher ratio and the faculty profiles.

However, for some programs such as Comp.Sci, the student/computer ratio is extremely important. You learn more in the computer lab than in the classrooms. Almost all Comp Sci courses at LUMS assign 10-15% of the grade through class quizzes. A staggering 40-50% of the grade depends on biweekly assignments. And another 40% depends on mid-term exams and finals.

Even if you recruit professors from MIT or Stanford, without enough computers you simply can`t teach a CS program. This is the bottomline. NED should contact its alumni for donations and upgrade its computing facilities.

Not many people know that the American University of Beirut is rated as high as the top 25 universities in America. In its list of best international institutes (from 1998-2001 I think), U.S. news included it in the same category as INSEAD (France). During late 1970s and early 80s, it was rated even higher until turmoil struck Lebanon in 1983. About 70% of the faculty is foreign and does not allow any political interference from Hezbollah.

++
LUMS, on the other hand, seems to believe most stringently in being penny-wise
++

You must be an outsider to the LUMS community. Those who attend LUMS can attest that the university offers plenty of scholarships, bank sponsorships and Qarz-e-Hasna. In my batch, there was a Baluchi student who had aced his FSc exam but didn`t speak English. He couldn`t even travel to Lahore for his interview. He expressed this problem in his application essay.

LUMS sent him an airticket, conducted his interview in Urdu (as a special case), gave him the admission and gave him 100% need-based financial assistance. (During the course of his study, he picked up English and is now working at an NGO in Quetta)

Here is another example. Another friend of mine lost his father at very young age and had to rely on scholarships throughout school and high school. He aced his O-levels and A-levels and then applied to LUMS. He got the Razak Dawood scholarship and did not have to pay a dime out of his pocket. This guy was so brilliant that he maintained a 4.0 GPA in every quarter at LUMS. He is now completing his Ph.D. at CMU.

An Urdu-speaking friend of mine came from Karachi. He had similar problems but didn`t have high grades. LUMS found him a sponsorship with ABN-AMRO bank. Under this deal, my friend was required to maintain a GPA of 3.5 for three years and work for 2 years at ABN-AMRO after graduation. In return, the bank would pay for his education at LUMS.

Just because there are some rich spoilt kids at LUMS doesn`t mean that LUMS discourages hard-working students with financial problems. In fact, all the shining stars at LUMS are people from the latter category who don`t waste their precious time at LUMS in dating, partying and cricket.

#43 by plats8

You are missing the point here. Bilal Tanweer (author of this article) should realize that in terms of computing facilities, LUMS is probably as good as even the best U.S. universities. If he really wants to criticize LUMS management, he should focus on student/teacher ratios and space problem in hostels.

I don`t disagree with HassanShah that LUMS is expensive. But he is overlooking the fact that those who really need financial assistance at LUMS, do get it. The LUMS management is very generous with need-based Qarz-e-Hasna and scholarships.

Romair #45 and Hassan Shah #42.
I agree with most of what you have said Romair but disagree with you Hassan. The Virginia-based company I work for employs 5 LUMS CS grads (including myself) and they have performed very well. I interview 3-4 job candidates per week for the company which have included Indian nationals, Chinese and of course US Citizens from places like U Maryland College Park, UVA and my sense is that the average LUMS grad has a better mix of technical and ``soft`` skills than their US counterparts and better communication skills than other foreign nationals. Now keep in mind that the TOTAL number of CS graduates to date is approximately 350 (Classes of 1997 to 2003) which is a small number as compared to graduates of NED, FAST etc. In my class approximately 20% of the graduates opted to pursue higher education and one of them after completing his PhD from Cambridge is now a faculty member in the EECS Dept at MIT. Of course, as you say Hassan, one or two people gettin into good places does not mean anything but the fact is that consistently from each graduating class students have been getting admissions in the top-5 CS schools in the US such as Stanford, CMU, Cornell. The main problem they are facing right now is to get F1 visas in time! I know of several students who got admissions in top schools but their background check required by the US Embassy for Pakistani nationals was taking months+ and they had to either defer their admissions or withdraw.

Bilal, coming to your original post and concerns - I hear you. And these concerns were raised by the alumni as well with Dr Zahoor and Syed Babar Ali at alumni meetings in the US and they are alive to the situation. The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time. I remember in my time there was no on-campus student housing and students used to share rooms in houses in Defence that LUMS rented (plus if you`re finding so much time to spend in your dorm room they`re not driving you hard enough ;-) ). So hang in there and concentrate on your coursework.

Lets forget about LUMs, NED, GKI, FAST, or SLUM or whatever. Thesea re not that famous compared to others in Pakistan.

Well, more than LUMS, NED etc there are more important institutions in pakistan. These are world famous for they have made their presense felt in afghanistan, india, NYC and the US and now in China. These are the jehad terror camps in Pakistan. Well the Islamic Republic of Pakistan should rename itself (no not the Dominion of Pakistan as the Pak embassy in US calls Pakistan) but the International Institution for Terror (IIT) -8-()! Atleast there will be one acronym which has a brand feel to it!

Check this out from UNI

China points finger at Pak militant camps

Washington: Trouble could be brewing between long-time strategic allies China and Pakistan.

Recent statements by a senior Chinese official that separatist forces in the country`s restive Xinjian Autonomous Region have had training in several camps in Pakistan have led to speculation on the ties between the two nations, according to Strategic Forecasting (Stratfor).

Separatists in China`s predominantly Uighur-populated northwest were receiving assistance from international militant groups, including instruction in ``several training camps in Pakistan``, regional Communist Party secretary and Politburo member Wang Lequan said at a September 11 press conference for foreign journalists.

The statement is a shocking deviation of protocol between long-time allies China and Pakistan, the geopolitical analytical firm said in a report.

In the past, it said, Beijing has gone out of its way not to implicate Islamabad when speaking of the activities of Islamist militant groups. However, if the quote attributed to Wang is accurate and his views are official, it contains ``startling implications for Chinese-Pakistani relations``.

Speaking about Beijing`s struggle with Muslim separatist groups in the Xinjiang region, Wang reportedly said a small number of training camps had been found in Xinjiang since September 11, 2001, but that several more camps exist in Pakistan. He gave no further details.

The official`s statements could have been poorly translated or unsanctioned, off-the-cuff remarks, Stratfor said. But if his words reflect the current party line, a very sharp policy shift vis-a-vis Islamabad has occurred in Beijing, it added.

About 10 million of Xinjiang`s 19 million people are Muslim Uighurs, many of whom claim they are a distinct ethnic group with a right to declare their own homeland.

Beijing has suppressed a Uighur separatist movement in Xinjiang for more than a decade, and more than half a million Uighurs reportedly have fled from China into neighbouring Pakistan and Central Asia since 1996. From there, Stratfor alleged, they slip arms, aid and insurgents back across the border, aiding the rebellion.






UNI

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Hassan !

ok so the avg lums mba may not be a great as the avg wharton mba, but perhaps that is because they`re looking at two diff markets. Its a pretty illogical statement - that job opportunities after a wharton mba are better. Ppl who `choose` to get a lums mba, are those who want to live in Pakistan and there`s nothing better than a lums mba in that case, where u`re more aware of the local market. Most firms wld prefer to hire a lums mba than a person with an mba degree at least from a middle tiered US uni (of course hbs sloan and wharton wld be a diff case). Btw many of these lums mbas (with only their lums degrees) are working on wall-street and doing v. well: i-banking and also in consulting firms, guess they`re not so bad after all - so are they still lemons, that wall street cld not screen out? so much for their several rounds of interviews.

fin aid: lums does give a significant amount of financial aid and a few scholarships. The size of these may not be a large as those given out by liberal art colleges and ivy-leages in the US, but u have to admit that these institutions have been around for much longer. They have trust funds and donors, and are generating a regular income stream from them. LUMS has a long way to go - but given its short history, and not a huge amt of funds to depend on, the fin aid given is still sthg.

cs majors: i don`t know which lums cs majors u grilled - but its preposterous to claim that they`re not as good as ned etc grads. I guess that is why half of the past few lums cs class are employed at microsoft.

grad school: despite the faculty from `not so great` unis, i think its still quite a feat that lums grads are studying at grad schools in ivy-leages in the US and are surviving the rigours too.

and lastly

In fact, the only real edge LUMS provides is that you get to mingle with the rich elite of >the country and might be able to find jobs more easily that way.

yes of course...it was the connections that got `em jobs at microsoft, in i-banking and consulting in the US !

#48 by HisExellency

Things are down for Wharton grads these days ? Well, from what I hear from my friends in LUMS, they`re not that rosy for people there either. As for IBA, I don`t think it`s doing that badly. True, it has had its ups and downs over the years, but I know of quite a few people who managed to get admitted to MBA programs at University of Chicago, Northwestern etc. and have landed jobs are places like McKinsey.

There was another post down there somewhere stating that by mingling with those with wads of cash, LUMS graduates manage to get jobs at Microsoft (a company that produces products of debatable quality). Perhaps my view of an educational institute is skewed, but I thought a college is meant to educate people. Not to merely serve as a social networking club.

#45 by Romair

``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.``

I`m not sure what to make of that. Enough rich, snotty, Westernized types have led institutions, corporations and even countries to their downfall. Surely, being a manager necessitates some qualities other than the ones mentioned. In any case, I think you hit the nail on the head about LUMS; little in terms of knowledge, but it most definitely allows you to mingle with the rich and famous of Pakistan. Not that developing a social network is a bad thing, but a university should focus on imparting a quality education, not gear itself towards developing an image as a haven for the sons and daughters of businessmen, landlords and politicians. I have mixed feelings about any group that revels in exploiting class distinctions.

College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that`s the main point I`m trying to bring across. LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK. In fact, even in Pakistan, its status as the premier educational institution is under fire. What vexes me no length is the smug contentment shown by the administration at LUMS. Rejoicing in mediocrity is inexcusable, more so because it stems from a mistaken (dare I say arrogant) belief that LUMS is a top-notch research institute. To make matters worse, then there`s the constant disparaging of places like NED, FAST etc., which manage to achieve arguably more with fewer resources. Unless the people at LUMS reconcile themselves with reality, they`re not going to improve.

As far as doing well in the IT market goes, I think a fair chunk of the credit should be given where it`s due; our primary education sector. Unlike the universities in Pakistan, our schools are actually fairly competitive with the best around the world. Maybe it`s due to the fact that brain-drain does significantly impact them. Maybe not. The broader point here is that singling out the weak higher education sector as the driving force behind the stellar performance of Pakistanis abroad is perhaps unfair. There are countless other factors; excellent primary education (though only available to a small nano-percent of our population), social conditions where only the fittest (read most successful) survive and, yes, even some ``natural talent``.

ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization. Some of the ones I met at college have actually fared quite well and aren`t an entirely different breed from the rest of us. Even if the anecdotal evidence has some truth in it, again, I think you`re attributing too much to college education at places like LUMS. As I just mentioned, there are other, more powerful forces at play.

Georgia Tech I must confess is a great school. It was probably the lack of sleep more than anything else that let that one slip in. I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make). Putting aside Acadia, Kent, University of Florida etc., I think that the merits of the aerospace program at Kansas State are debatable and in any case, to the best of my knowledge, LUMS does not have an a program in that area. Nor, from what I`ve heard, does it plan to anytime soon.

trekker:

... one of them after completing his phd from cambridge is now a faculty member in the eecs dept at mit..

yeah! i keep hearing about him all the time from people. there was an ad in the newspaper about him too. i checked out the mit site and also asked a couple of people i know there and it turns out hes not really a prof... some kind of staff or something but definitely not faculty. from what i hear he has just been creating that impression just because he was involved as an assistant for some class or something. still impressive but only half the truth.

Thank you all for your comments. There are a few clarifications that I`d like to make:

1. The cost is of the FULL MBA PROGRAMME and not per annum as some of you have beent thinking
2. I have not raised any point about the financial aid programme of LUMS. I think it is pretty good. Frankly, most of the people in LUMS are on a financial aid. In fact, I think it`s probably the best in Pakistan.
3. a correction: I was informed by a few ppl that student to faculty ratio is calculated over all the student and faculty. What I have stated is an observation of the number of people in the courses that I have taken thusfar, which usually range from 40-180 per class. (And it is a norm).
4. Trekker #52: I am glad that an ex-LUMINITE also read this. However, about your comment:

``The new library building and labs are steps in that direction but it will take time.``

What I and the rest of the existing student body is complaining is about the current infra-structure not being able to support it. We all want LUMS to grow to a population of 20,000; but we insist: facilities first!

Bilal

HE:
[When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc. I spent considerable time helping friends who had applied to Canada, but never once heard the name Simon Fraser crop up (and campus beauty does not a university make)]

That is because it is a 2nd tier university in Canada. By second tier, it means it does not cover all types of courses; in particular, it does not have professional courses like law, medicine, dentistry or teaching. It is located in a suburb of Vancouver, Burnaby. Vancouver also has a first tier university, the University of British Columbia.
In its class though (comprehensive) SFU consistently scores at the top or near the top in the Maclean magazine rating, the most popular ratings in Canada.

I enjoy discussing universities. Better to have discussion on whose university is better, than whose ideology or country or religion is better.

HassanShah $53: “``... the LUMS guy(s) were more upper class, more Westernized etc. ... If I were to hire a manager, probably the LUMS guy.`` ….I`m not sure what to make of that.”

These statements weren’t supposed to be connected. I just meant that in a Western country, the social skills of a LUMS graduate (which may have nothing to do with LUMS) would prove to be an asset in management.

“College education in Pakistan is decent. Nothing more, nothing less.”

I agree. It just needs more funding and needs to be more accessible. But I don’t think it is as bad as people make it out to be. One rarely hears of a Pakistani flunking from a US university.

“LUMS is probably the equivalent of a middle-tier school in the US and UK.”

I would agree, and this holds true for all good Pakistani schools. They can never have the funds to compete with the top-tier Western schools. They can only compete in Asia. However, the selection standards of places like LUMS (and NED, etc.) are probably quite a bit higher than the middle-tier US schools, hence the standard of their graduates will be higher than those of middle-tier US schools.

“ABCD Pakistan candidates leave a lot to be desired ? I can`t say, but it seems like a sweeping generalization.”

Yes, an obvious generalization. I was just talking about the ones I have run across. Pakistanis who make it to the US, specially from middle class neighborhoods, tend to be more desparate and more resourceful, and thus more successful (in my experience). Though I could be wrong.

“I`ve never really heard of Simon Fraser University. When I think of Canada, the schools that come to mind are Waterloo (which I have great respect for), McGill, UofT etc.”

Please read dost-mittar’s comments. I have recently learnt quite a bit about Canadian universities, since I help my clients recruit from there now. The only three well-known universities outside Canada are the ones you mentioned. They are generally in the top three always. McGill is the Harvard of Canada. Waterloo is the MIT of Canada. And U of Toronto is the only very large university in Canada (I believe it is the 6th largest in North America). It has the best Ph.D programs in Canada and the most degrees offered, and by far the largest research grants.

After these, come two more: Queens and Simon Fraser. Sometimes these sneak into the top three, in Mcleans magazine ratings (US News equivalent for Canada).

“and campus beauty does not a university make”

Yes, this is true. But one must make an exception for the ones that are spectacularly beautiful. The two that I have visited, that come to mind, are Simon Fraser and University of Colorado. Boulder, Colorado is a slice of heaven. I was actually accepted there, but decided not to go. Sometimes I still regret it. And the view from the Simon Fraser cafeteria’s balcony, which hangs out over a small peak, overlooking a green valley on one side and the Vancouver seacoast on the other side, is worth the price of admission, on its own. And Vancouver is rightly considered, by many, the most beautiful city in the world, with the most beautiful ladies in the world. So the most beautiful view, in the most beautiful campus, in the most beautiful city, surrounded by the most beautiful student body, has to be worth something. U of T, McGill and Waterloo campuses are quite stale, in comparison.

SR #41 Agreed with you that the day of the mutual fund is probably over, but only as far as MANAGED mutual funds go. This as I understand (based on my ``serious`` study of literature in the motley fool and morningstar) is because three-fourths of managed funds have in fact done WORSE than the stock market as a whole. index funds (like the vanguard 500) which are essentially unmanaged thus did better than the ``managed`` funds while involving very little fee (0.18 percent for vanguard 500 vs. 2.5 percent average for managed funds, as i recall).
When I mentioned a 30-40 year time horizon, i was thinking of pension funds for ``new adults`` (i.e. someone in his or her late teens/early twenties). vanguard may be gone by then, but surely the stock market will still be around. and even if the stock market has been totally transformed by then, the companies in which the stock investment is made will still be around. and even if they are not around (due to takeover for example) the stock would have been exchanged for some new stock.
However, i agree that it would not make sense to put all of one`s retirement money into a 30-40 year horizon. In that case, one could have a MIX: say anywhere from 20-90 percent (depending on one`s risk averseness) of portfolio in some kind of stock index funds, and the rest in specific industries or even companies.
Which brings us to the mining sector. Why do you favor it??

PS: We can continue the discussion on ilog if you wish, but let me know if you want to do that.

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030915.html

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030916.html

#54 by HassanShah

I know quite a few LUMS MBAs who are working for McKinsey, A.T.Kearney and Goldman Sachs in NYC. One of my former classmates is working at Citibank in London. Most of the folks have gone into Investment banks and Management consulting companies. Quite a few have joined Internet venture funds and startups in D.C.

Compared to the early and mid-1990s, the only difference now is that LUMS MBAs need to wait longer to find jobs. My IBA friends tell me that they also face the same problem. So I don`t think this has anything to do with LUMS or IBA. Too many MBAs are entering the market and many have returned from the U.S. because of visa problems/layoffs. Effectively, LUMS MBAs are now competing with U.S. qualified MBAs. Strangely, though most of the times, employers still prefer a LUMS MBA (albiet with good grades) to a foreign MBA from mid-tier universities.

++
Perhaps my view of an educational institute is skewed, but I thought a college is meant to educate people. Not to merely serve as a social networking club.
++

LUMS is much more than a social networking club. The average MBA student at LUMS spends 70-85 hours a week in class, group discussions, assignments and case studies. Networking, no doubt, is one of the benefits of joining LUMS. But it is not the entire picture.

To put it bluntly, professional education is not about education alone. Networking and soft skills are equally crucial, especially during an economic slowdown.

Graduate studies are very different from elementary school, high school or college. The focus in grad school is specialization and networking, not general education. It has to be seen as an investment, not an exercise in character-building. It is no different from a business investment which ultimately must yield a financial return.

On the contrary, I think this is the best school to go to for learning business and management sciences or art. It teaches you, by examples, how to maximize profits by squeezing available resources to the limit. Learn it well as you have to implement it routinely in your practical life to come.
You and your school are part of the commodity market, where education is the product that you two are exchanging. You want more bang for your buck and school wants thicker stream of cash flows flowing. The school has to grow and growth comes from raising money. You are the capital providers. Did you say they are admitting more students than they can handle? No! they are accumulating more money and guess what, one can always handle more money. You know that.
And don’t sweat too much about the quality. Think of this way, you are far superior than those third grade government school poodles even if you don’t learn nothin’. When you walk into that interview room with your LUMS chip on your shoulder, you will get priority over crippled public school graduates with no membership in the Rich People Club (I am implying(I am not implying that u are part of the club but the majority is).
The quality wavier applies to you only if you decide to remain in the country, but if you want to go to Umrica, for instance, then it may turn out to be a whole different ball game.

Caution: response may sound bitter for I sensed a brat in 2nd to last sentence of your post.

#56 by JacobianMatrix

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yeah! i keep hearing about him all the time from people. there was an ad in the newspaper about him too. i checked out the mit site and also asked a couple of people i know there and it turns out hes not really a prof... some kind of staff or something but definitely not faculty. from what i hear he has just been creating that impression just because he was involved as an assistant for some class or something. still impressive but only half the truth.
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I believe he is a Research Assistant in the Ubiquitous Computing group at MIT. During his PhD at Cambridge, he contributed to the Oxygen Project and now he is in the process of setting up a Research institute in Lahore. Apparently, the govt has apportioned a grant of $30m for this purpose. More details will probably emerge only after this project materializes.

JacobianMatrix #56

Yeah so his formal title is Postdoctoral Associate - who cares. But the fact remains that he is an ``instructor`` for courses at MIT. e.g. http://cag.lcs.mit.edu/classes/6.898/ and not just ``TA`` or ``staff``. And being an instructor for an MIT graduate-level course sure beats being a full professor at a run-of-the-mill US college.

I did my BE (CSE) from GIKI and then went to graduate school here in US at CMU.

I think universities can be compared to democracies. The older the better, they get refined, stable, reknown and nurtured. The fact that NED and UET have produced great professionals can be partly attributed to the reason that not only have they been around for quite a while, many of the alumni have contributed in some way or another to improve the ambience as a whole. However, it is to note that as great leaders are born in a corrupt governments too, so are great students in mis-managed universities, and I believe in larger numbers.

Pakistan is Pakistan and US is US. You have to change your mind-frame when you compare, or even talk. The objective of a university is to impart education. Why am I not too worried about `not-the-best` living conditions at LUMS? I think the foremost should be what do they offer. LUMS, GIKI along with other institutions offers an oppurtune way for people to come abroad for better jobs and education. On a comparison with other institutions in Pakistan, I see one of the most creditable faculty at LUMS. A GIKIAN recently got his doctorate from US and returned back to Pak, and is teaching in LUMS and has opened a Computer Vision research centre - I doubt such an oppurtunity for research or exposure exists anywhere else in the country. Now which student or how many students can cash on it, is a different matter - let`s remember we are Pakistanis too and all the things that come with it and our nature.

GIKI had great resources but was isolated and did not have the faculty and suffered and still suffers from such mis-management rumours too. Does that mean that it did not produce good students? Did they not end up at top universites in the world or in top firms? No. This applies to NUST and LUMS also. NED/UET have made their marks, and these new universities are, perhaps not in the best-est of ways or the ways we would like, but they surely are. They are making and producing students - good ones and individuals - with strong fundamentals. And they are usually cheaper compared to any place here in the US.

As I did my graduate studies here in the US, I did not feel that my undergraduate university (GIKI) hampered my grooming by not offering facilities/time/resources to learn, instead I realized that I did not actually make use of all they had to offer (like most people).

#57 by dost-mittar

Well, to be quite honest, my knowledge of SFU, as I have already admitted, is close to zero. I did surf the web and it seems that SFU is rated well outside the top 100 economics programs around the world, behind places like Queens, University of Montreal, McGill, U of T, McMaster, York, U of Western Ontario etc. in Canada alone. Besides, the point I`m making is not critically dependent on the merits and demerits of SFU alone (it was just one in a list of places).

When LUMS started out they had a pretty impressive faculty. For various reasons (interesting in their own right for they are a consequence of the smug attitude of the administration), that`s no longer the case. I think it`s a startling decline for the university and one they need to check. The standard of education does not merely depend on the most accomplished one or two professors in a college but on the majority of the faculty. It`s about time LUMS started realising things are amiss and checked the rabid expansion that`s been taking place of late till they get a set of individuals capable of leading research efforts. Jobs at Microsoft, ABN Amro etc. might keep the applications coming in, but till philosophicla enquiry takes root, LUMS will never be recognized around the world.

Of course, for all this to happen, someone needs to wake up to reality. Unfortunately, it seems that those who matter in LUMS think everything`s just nice and dancy.

Sobia #47,

If LUMS compares favourably with mid-level American Universities in terms of the undergraduate curriculum it offers, I would say it has done rather well. Would you
disagree with this assessment ?

To digress a little, the IITs have maintained their standards through a ridiculously
difficult entrance exam, which ensures a very motivated and intelligent
undergraduate student body. From what I have read in this article, LUMS seems to offer better infra-structure (student/computer ratio) and the living conditions in IIT campuses
used to be spartan at best.

zird:
grad school: despite the faculty from `not so great` unis, i think its still quite a feat that lums grads are studying at grad schools in ivy-leages in the US and are surviving the rigours too.

so? a lot of other pakistani students who haven`t gone to lums are also doing the same, from GIK, NED, UET etc...my question is: what`s with the attitude, dude? You guys are not even being hired by local firms now because of the badass attitude...me me me i`m special i want this i want that...get OVER yourselves! What is it about desis and superiority complexes? You get a little and you want the whole nine yards. Jeeez! Even foreign grads don`s have these `nakhras`! This is more so in the case of MBAs. Of course, I am generalizing greatly. I`m sure there are lums grads around who don`t have their heads in the clouds but most of them do have a problem dealing with the `common` folks...i wonder what the deal with that is!

very impressive. definitely. no denying that. im proud of any pakistani who ends up at mit. wow. only point is that hes not a faculty member as i hear he keeps telling people he is. lets give credit for what is and not what isnt. i was excited when my friend at lums told me about the youngest professor ever at mit being from pakistan and it later turned out the he was not even close to the youngest and not even a prof. also turns out that research assistants at mit do teach classes as instructor from time to time. disappointing were not content about what we are and must fool others by pretending to be things we arent. lums even published an ad about it. im going to wait to see what the `institute` in lahore does before getting my hopes up high again. simply getting a grant from the govt doesnt count for anything.