LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

# 149 by Sobia

``A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right``


huh? i think ppl who did so (on this thread), did qualify their statements...honey, no-one is comparing lums to a foreign uni - in fact the point of contention is whether its the best place in pakistan, currently.

I guess since we have been branded as arrogant...and it seems that there`s no escaping the label....i`ll have to agree with the grand and infallible statement.

Inayatullah in todays The News International



``Striking indeed is the news of a visiting team from abroad finding that ``obsolete`` IT syllabi was being taught in Pakistan. This finding is based on the team’s visit to some of the leading universities where even the top students will have to be retrained, for them, to understand state-of-the-art information technology developed by such leading firms a Samsung, IBM and Nokia.``

And yet we say we are as good as MIT Stanford etc!

Too many people, even more opinions and a rather endless argument. Bilal is an ultra-democratic person who would even sue the government if his rights aren’t delivered at doorstep overnight. And well, as loud and clear his account is, he has received substantial acknowledgement. But people this is a very magnified version of problems that do arise in universities everywhere! If you look at the Punjab University, NCA, Karachi University, IBA or UET, LUMS is seriously a baby university. The B.Sc. program is hardly 10 years old. The new campus, perhaps not even that old. Considering this, I think LUMS is making a remarkable progress and the only institution in Pakistan that challenges it for the top slot, by and large, is the prestigious Aga Khan University. And well if you even try to compare LUMS with American or European universities, that will show how disregardful your observation is. Most well-established American universities are at least twice as old as Pakistan and institutions like Hardvard and Cambridge (U.K.) are more than six times as old as Pakistan. Legacy is a significant factor required in order to excel. Trial-and-error and collapse-and-recovery are cumulative processes that eventually lead to a healthy system, may it be human physiology or an administrative body. I believe we are unfortunate that we have to bear these “troubles of initial phases” of a grand-institution-in-the-making, but I also sincerely believe that we will be among the fortunate few who would proudly sing our alma mater 20 or 30 years down the road.

re : hassan

I again have to repeat that it hardly matters what kind of views ill informed people like you have about lums so take a chill pill and instead of focusing on sentences over here try to check out the bigger picture which it seems is beyond you. The basic problem it seems over here is that after 9/11 a lot of the foriegn qualified students dont get jobs in usa and have to come back to pakistan to look for work, and when they do that they face a lot of competition with students from LUMS who it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students because first of all LUMS students are known for their skills and hard work and they are willing to work for less compared to their foriegn counterparts. This is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent etc. As i said earlier....taking an already brilliant student and getting good results of him/her can hardly be called as doing amazing stuff.......which is one of the CORE advantages IVY leagues have. So try to rise above urself and get rid of ur complexes.

cheers
raza

#164 by razzz

Hilarious. One points out something to which you have no response and you resort to the old ``it doesn`t matter what you think`` routine. Given that this is the second time you`ve clutched at that straw, I`m beginning to think that the only opinions you respect are the ones that seem to mirror your own.

Oh and yes. My last two posts had little to do with LUMS and focussed primarily on pointing out the flaws in your logic and disabusing you of the notion that Cornell took you in because you were some spectacularly overachieving student with stupendous SAT scores. I would have assumed the disclaimer:

``The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye`` (#145)

might have given this fact away, but I guess my expectations of others are undeservedly high. In any case, since you`ve chosen (wisely) not to proceed further along the ``I was admitted to Cornell but still got an average GPA at LUMS so ...`` path and are striving hard to extricate yourself from the mess by redirecting the discussion back to other things, I shall take it as an indication that the points I wanted to make have finally sunk in.

Coming now to your hastily typed mail, there are a few things I`d like to say. I find the theory you proposed quite charming, though well along the lines of the other claims you`ve made. I really don`t understand why you think all criticism stems from being complexed, jilted, jealous etc. You really need to be more mature about these things. This is, after all, a discussion forum. One of the key ideas about a discussion forum is to talk about things, to examine what opinions other people hold and to reflect upon them. Some of the views might (according to you) be illogical, founded on untrue claims and not convincing, in which case you are entitled to correct them, but simply dismissing beliefs outright as ``complexes`` or being borne out of some ``hard to digest`` fact hints at an insular outlook.

For the record, once again, I have nothing to do with LUMS. Wasn`t rejected there and certainly wasn`t edged out by some brilliant individual like yourself for a job. So please don`t make it sound as if anyone who has any comments about the place does so because of deep-seated resentment. I also find your claim that:

``students from LUMS ... it seems are preferred over these foriegn qualified students ... [which] is very hard for these students to digest and hence their newly developed theory about lums students being arrogant and in competent ``

nothing short of an inane conspiracy theory. I doubt that Ivy-league graduates are simply languishing away in Pakistan without finding employment while all and sundry are busy rolling out red carpets for those from LUMS. Moreover, I would also be quite chary of accusing foreign grads of being so incredibly petty and bitter as to collectively propagate vicious slurs about the people at LUMS simply if they are willing to work for less. I have no desire to delve into the arrogance-related discussions, but I will say this much : they have been around since well before 9/11, so it`s ridiculous to claim they`re something ``new`` and attribute them to the phenomenon you described.

I hope you`ll take some time to read (and to think about) what I write before jumping to respond with an angry word here and an ill-thought out claim there.

raza, hassan. you guys lost me along the way, totally. what are you arguing about?!?! and raza, what the hell are you thinking?!?! writing?!?! apnay hi paoon par kulhari wala scene hai ...

#166 by lalib

Actually, I must apologise for veering off the topic. My last three posts focus almost exclusively on responding to some of the points Raza was trying to make and have little to do with LUMS.

In any case, at the expense of replacing one digression with another, given that there seems to be a temporary lull in the discussion on LUMS, I was curious as to what other people thought of our primary education sector. Since those of you who went to college in Pakistan are bound to have interacted with students from other schools, I was wondering if you had any opinions regarding how the Matric/Inter system stacks up against O/A levels.

HassanShan #167

I did my matric and FSc (GC Lahore). My primary school (class 5) was a federal public school in Bannu, NWFP where we often sat on the floor on ``taats``. I can confidently say that our school system resulting in the Matric and FSc certificates is better than the average American high school diploma -- but the curriculum lags behind when compared to O/A Levels. But then again, many of my classfellows at LUMS were from A Levels background and I did not feel that I was at a disadvantage -- save for Calculus I.

Talking of the quality of education in Pakistan, another article of interest is on the Textile Institute of Pakistan, ``Pakistan`s ``Intellectual Rubble:`` Learning the Hard Way`` at http://quack.offroadpakistan.com/opinion/
pakistans_intellectual_rubble_learning_the_hard_way.html

I d agree with bilal regarding mismanagement at lums.. As i see the full force of the newly inducted class of 2007.. it rarely seems like a university anymore rather a fish market... Though i agree that a greater number of students be inducted in each batch but consideration should be taken regarding providing and equippin the uni with more facilities.

The greater number of students causes problem in two departments
1. It leads to a killing of your own students job market...
2. With exponential increase of students and not even a linear increase of resources.. i fear a greater Malthusian struggle.

Lastly another thing the administration has really no concern on hearing the students regarding the issue.. so much for liberating students thought and representative model.. its all abt power politics..

man, hassan, theres no comparison between the o`/a` levels and the matric/fsc system. undoubtedly, there are smart people in the local system and they`ll retain their ``smarts`` throughout ... but the system is absolutely pathetic. a million reasons for this: lack of funds from the centre, outdated syllabi, corruption in exam boards etc. one could write a dissertation on this.

as for primary schooling, well, my only masla with most primary schools is that they don;t place enough emphasis on english. because thats the medium of instruction for most subjects (barring urdu), someone who doesn;t understand english will be unable to comprehend whats going on in science or social studies or even mathematics. its really quite sad. i`ve met some very smart children who suffer at schools because they can`t speak and understand english properly. and then a sense of inferiority may develop blah blah blah. distressing.

Well I have followed the discussions on LUMS. It is but characteristic of our expediency oriented mentality and ``all is well syndrome`` that very good institutions decay rather than evolve and grow. I have my comments on another national pride, ``The National University of Science and Technology``.

NUST WAS FORMED ON THE NUCLEUS OF MILITARY INSTITUTIONS. Therefore all its colleges bear a remarkable military sociology which cannot be grasped by a civilian called NUSTIAN. Like all military institutions, it is geared to first deeducate and then build a new individual fit to meets its corporate needs. Unfortunately, this proximity to military exclusiveism defeats the NUST objective of higher professional learning AND CREATIVITY.

THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE COLLEGES IS MEDIVIAL IN NATURE. Teacher student relationship is conspicuous by its absence. In any case the average size of the class is eighty students and too difficult to handle. By the time the semester ends, most teachers do not even remember the names of all the students.

THE SUBJECTS ARE TAUGHT IN LINE WITH THE DEMERITS AND NOT THE MERITS OF THE SEMSTER SYSTEM. The MARKING OF PAPERS is mostly done according to the precis and notes handed out by the teachers.Room for creativity is totally cramped as no dissenting knowledge, no matter how authentic and latest is acceted if it does not form part of the makedo precis and handouts. So most O and A level students begin with a severe handicap.
The culture of RATTA and superflous writing in the subjects of social sciences is the name of the game. At times the contempt of the teacher towards certain students specially O and A levels is distinct by penalising of marks.

GIRLS ARE TREATED AS IF THEY BELONG TO A MEDIVIAL PRIMORDIAL SOCIETY. The culture of scarfs, duppatta and covering limbs upto the ankles and wrists is strictly imposed. Girls from the O and A level streams are taken as softies, too westernised,easily approachable by males and hence vulnerable and exploitable. No matter how brilliant in past academics, they seldom do well. However the entire system works over time to bring them back to the national values.

LACK OF COMMITTED FACULTY. Due to the non congenial atmosphere, good faculty finds the place soffocating with non attractive financial packages. Given a choice, they move over to institutions that offer better economic incentives and initiative. NUST has made this deficiency by getting the services of Army Education Corps Officers. Most are the bottom of the barrel type, outdated but typically very commanding. They neither inspire nor show any trait towards updation. Many are far behind on latest scientific theories and outrightly reject querries raised by more progressive students. The art of survival therefore lies in `` to do as the romans do``.

DESPITE ALL THESE FIOBLES, THE NUST CONTINUES TO TAKE PRIDE IN ITS PRESTIGE. THE BIGGEST SYMBOL OF INERTIA AND NEPOTISM IS EFCOURSE THE RECTOR HIMSELF DULY SUPPORTED BY HIS TEAM OF PART TIME ACADEMICIANS; THE COMMANDANTS. IT REMAINS THE HOLY OF HOLIES

BY VIRTUE OF ITS CLOUT NUST FINDS A PLACE EVERWHERE. Academically it is on an unlearning curve.

#171 by lalib

Funny you mention that. I met a few people at college (foreigners from other countries) who sat through lectures without understanding the term ``kinetic energy`` till you tried explaining it to them. Then, they`d realise what was going on and substitute some word in their native tongue for it... Seems like what you mention is not a problem solely affecting Pakistan but is pretty common around the world.

I agree with you though. I think it`s time people stopped looking at a move to promote the ability to understand English as some kind of a complexed mindset. The bulk of the present-day knowledge that`s out there is in English and if learning the language is what it takes to acquire this knowledge, so be it. Translating all scientific works to Urdu is great and should be done if it promotes the spread of knowledge, but it just doesn`t scale well enough.

I feel you guys are being too harsh on LUMS. The decision taken to expand fast should also be appreciated. Agreed that facilities should also have been developed at an even faster pace.

Se thee thing in project management is that you have to compromise on at least of the three constraints: quality, time, and money. I guess management is doing the best it can to raise money. Time? Well, about recruiting more people for whom hostel would be constructed next year, imagine this. Majority of those would not have been able to join LUMS at all if this measure was not adopted! Yeah, after one year of relatively bad experience, things would turn out to be better. And its also an limited experience which might rather add to character. So quality, the third constraint, has suffered (temporarily as you say) in aspect of hostel and downloading speed. Well, all hell is not breaking loose.

Regarding student to teacher ratio, I think they`re trying to find new/more quality faculty. But I would not advocate improving the ratio by turning down admission applications.

As far as international rating of LUMS is concerned, its not just quality of education and graduates. The rating agencies also give weightage to number of schools, PHDs graduating, and research, etc. So as far as quality of LUMS graduates is concerned, they are equitable to National University of Singapore & Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad. Obviously it also depends on person to person. IQ and EQ is not something that a University imparts!

After reading that article about LUMS i must say its really about time!!! Its about time that someone had the guts to uncover the bitter truth that is LUMS! It is about time that some person has had the guts to actually tell us where the annual fees of 3 lacs is being wasted...

I am an IBA student and am from Islamabad. When I came to Karachi people were rather surprised that i had given IBA preference over LUMS. I now end my silence and explain why:

1. LUMS costs 3 lacs annuallly ( which comes to 12 lacs for 4 yrs) and you dont have a guaranteed job when u graduate. When u come out of IBA u have payed 2 lacs for four years and u have a comparitive advantage over LUMS graduates in the industry.

2. IBA has a 46 yr old reputation of producing excellence in the form of academic achievers time and time again.

3. It sets standards of excellence in areas of professionalism, focus and proactiveness in the Pakistani industry.

4. The actual exposure that IBAians get from the industry is undisputably the most in any degree in Pakistan.

5. IBA students are taught to be independent. I am currently in the third semester of my BBA and am Mashallah handling sponsership funds of 30 lacs for an upcoming international investment conference in January.

6. The IBA alumni regularly visit the institute to help graduating batches with jobs and give them a feel for the industry.

7. IBA students are taught not to sell themselves short. I know atleast 5 LUMS grads teaching as school teacher in Alevel colleges in Karachi and as call center operators. Is that what their teaching the kids there? Money , money and more money? Has the pursuit for materialistic goods become so important that students come out with a BSc. Hons in Computer science degree and become school teachers and telephone operators just because they are paying them well? Whatever happened to self respect?

8. I am relieved that i dont have to live in the crazy and expensive enviroment that LUMS personifies. IBA HOSTELITES have single rooms and have a cost effective messing facility with very good food and lodging conditions.

9. Last but not least, LUMS is increasing its batch every year. They actually think that it helps. The criteria to get into IBA is far tougher and only the cream of the academic arena get selected for studies at the IBA.I personally know 15 other friends who appeared both for SAT I, II and the IBA test. They all failed the IBA test. When my batch started three semesters ago we were a batch of 90. We now stand at 70 and are sure that by the time we graduate we will be around 50-60. Who do u think is gonna get the jobs?50 top quality grads or a batch of 400?

Ive given the arguments. You decide!!!

I am extremely sorry to disappoint you, but you couldn`t be farther away from the correct interpretation of the text.

By no means, I was comparing LUMS to IBA... and even if I do, I`d rate it much higher than IBA. This is not because of any bias that I have but due to many reasons.

All the other institutions in Pakistan (besides LUMS) treat you like a bunch of kids, imposing restrictions on you like attendacne, campus timings, hostel timings, what to wear, what not to wear. LUMS is the only place where you can seriously experience the diversity and tolerance- diversity especially in terms of intellectual discourse.

LUMS was the ONLY university in Pakistan that has a somewhat respectable Liberal Arts programme, latest addition being the Beaconhouse National University. Although it is nowhere compared to the world standards, but it is a bold initiative anyhow. What this does is that it enriches and broadens your persective, so that you aren`t just another Bachelor who only knows how to administer business or how to work with a computer. In IBA there are just 12 courses in humanities. In LUMS the number is 5 to 6 times the above.

I don`t want to go into the details of the job prospects because a. it bores me; and b. we all know the truths.

Facilities at LUMS are great. And everyone at LUMS used to enjoy the `LUMS experience`.. the article`s basically about the frustration of students over the current steps taken by the LUMS administration.

Hope I`ve made it clear enough.

Bilal