Shalom or Salaam

re:#264 by nasah
Thanks for correcting my mistake. That sure was an oversight. But i would still differ with you on one thing. Sharon may be a ``pariah`` in the eyes of some people but i always held this view (which to me is like a spiritual principle) that violence begets more violence and Sharon is just an extreme eg of that principle. He is trained as a military man and has defended his country well in the past and he is doing the same in the way he thinks best.

Is he doing the right thing by unleashing so much violence on his opponents?
We are again back to the chicken and egg analogy (just like in Kashmir). Who is to blame? The suicide bombers or the Israeli army? Who started first? All these things get murkier as violence is unleashed one after the other.
But there was a time PLO chariman Arafat could have determined the way his people fought this war. It could have been peaceful, just like the Tibetan struggle is. I mean, look at the LTTE. This is one brute force, which actually made suicide bombings into some kind of art form. These are fierce fighters but are they anywhere near their goal? And, their adversary (Srilankan govt) is not as powerful militarily as Israel is.
Both LTTE and Arafat seem to have lost touch with reality. They seem to think that violence is an end in itself rather than a means to an end (which is establishment of durable peace after attaining their goal). I believe at least the LTTE has in the past tried the ``peace route`` but has Arafat ever given peace a chance?
In a good analysis (by an Israeli, no doubt), this author argues how Arafat has let opportunities slip by as he stayed focussed only on tactics rather than ultimate goal. Read the article in the following Url to know the Israeli POV:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1063266360001
Excerpts:
1. ``Arafat was offered a state on a silver platter, without firing a shot, by Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton at the 2000 Camp David summit and he refused even to negotiate. Now he is being offered one again by Ariel Sharon and George W. Bush, if only he would give up terrorism, and again he won`t bite and even prevented his own appointed prime minister from doing so.``
2. ``The choice of terrorism as a tactic, and particularly the preference for terrorism even over the prospect of statehood, is integral to the idea that Israel is unacceptable in any size or form. Terrorism is only possible for people who have no intention of making peace with their victims under any circumstances. It is a tactic that is so critical to the ideology it supports that the line between tactics and ideology are blurred. ``
Sridhar

re:#264 by nasah
Further to my last post, i agree that Sharon may be a bad leader to negotiate peace. But he actually seems to have won the last elections on that very plank ie to be tough with his opponents. He is just doing what he has been expected to do. Israelis may have to throw him out if they feel he is not the right man for the job.
I just remembered something and thought i will share it with you and other chowkies. I read somewhere what Albert Einstein said: something like ``problems of the world cannot be solved by the very mind that created them in the first place``. Perhaps, solution to such problems is spiritual. Someday when all sides get wiser (after much of bloodshed and suffering) and have also moved up spiritually, they will find a way. The same holds true for the Kashmir problem.
Sridhar

#252 nasah

I think there are many better ways of protesting against Sharon than depending upon losers like Praful Bidwai. Mr. Bidwai is an extreme-left-wing commentator who spends his explaining why all of the problems of india originate from the indian state. And almost no time investigating how the indian state has been manipulated by extremists of all hues: left-wing, religous etc.

Our friend Angana Chatterji who recently appeared on Chowk also belongs to this category. You will recall that Angana is a person who lives in the USA but feels that american values and approach will be harmful to the Indians! To call such a person a hypocrite is to insult the word.


If Mr. Bidwai was a principled supporter of Israel it would be a different matter altogether. But this is not the case. I challenge you to producte a single column from this loser that says ANYTHING positive about Israel. Sharon is just a convenient stick with which to keep up the drum-beat of criticism.

#264 nasah
Bidwai might say in passing that he does not condone the violence but he never writes articles condemning it, did you see his articles after 11/9? Even for someone like me who thinks Israelis have gone overboard with annexation of Palestinian lands,it is hard to defend the Palestinian cause after events like the bombing at Cafe Hillel. The doctor who died was known to be a truly good man,and many older chowkies, Indian and Pakistani alike have probably benefited from his work,though they may not know it-he was a pioneer in thrombolytic therapy after myocardial infarctions (though not the only one). The cafe itself was in a left-leaning area,not the home of the Orthodox Jews at all(although it`s not ok to kill them either :))
The present Indian leadership isn`t devoid of self esteem, its just pragmatic, and high time too,we wasted so many years posturing. Lets not give India that much credit, Sharon didn`t need to visit India to be able to say he wants to throw Arafat out. One of his ministers is supposed to have said, lets kill him and Sharon said he didn`t want to hear that kind of talk. My theory, and I`m not taking it back,is that this will never end because both are people of the Book(the original people of the Book too) and neither will budge. The reason this hasn`t been going on for much longer was that Jews were too downtrodden and had to accept their lot,but not any more-unfortunately,they`re making up for lost time.
I`m not saying Sharon is a good man. But like I have said,neither were most of the foreign leaders who visit India. In all my years, I can only remember Mandela. (We`re not counting the Dalai Lama because he lives in India:))
I have asked myself what I would feel if the leader of an apartheid SA had been invied and I had to remind myself that wouldn`t have happened-he`d have refused the invitation-too many blackfellas. Israel on the other hand has nothing against India or Indians(except of course that we`re not the Chosen Ones,but we`re used to that)!

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Re: post # 261

Bangladesh didn`t grant transit or transhipment facility to India.

Re: Post # 255

``They have transit rights through Indian territory, favorable trade deals, investment , access to Indian markets, educational aid and the list goes on``

Bangladesh doesn`t have preferential access to Indian market. In fact, the former complain of non-tariff barrier put up by India.

``In the whole article he has not commented on suicide killers.``(Sridhar)

is that so sridhar miaN?

did you read this :``To demand this is not to support extremist or anti-Semitic positions against Israel or to condone indiscriminate violence against its citizens through methods like Hamas-style suicide-bombings``(PB)

PB is 100% right when he says:
``One must appreciate the exceptional, abnormal nature of India`s invitation to Mr Sharon.
Today, when Israel is waging war on the occupied territories, most nations wouldn’t even think of dignifying Mr. Sharon.``

Sharon is a PARIAH -- decent freedom loving countries in West don’t want to touch this rabid dog even with a ten foot pole --

Israel is not a Pariah country -- Sharon is --

Sharon is NOT Israel -- exactly the way Hitler was not Germany -- and Israel is NOT Sharon

Israel recognition is not in question -- recognition of Sharon IS –

with his history of past massacres and repeated genocide against a small community of defenseless Palestinians -- Sharon can sit with that ignorant, stupid moron from Texas who knows no history OR geography -- but he can`t sit with the leaders of India, who should know BETTER.

India is a very respectable country -- for India to give an audience to a CRIMINAL MURDERER -- and to impart respectability to a WAR CRIMINAL was to say the least extraordinary --

it simply shows how LITTLE self esteem the present leadership possesses for itself and its own famous country.

As for Sharon he would give his shirt off his back to gain even a semblance of respectability which he will use to commit another monstrous crime against the people of Palestine --

and he ALMOST did...

With his India trip the Likudnics got so cocky -- they proclaimed to the world that they will forcibly remove Arafat -- or EVEN KILL him! -- of course KILLING leaders of other countries and communities is in fashion now a days -- courtesy the Texas Stupido

but that was an extraordinary statement coming out of a cabinet that the Israeli government of Zionist thugs will announce to the world that the government will KILL Arafat.

of course when SHOES from all over the world started flying on the head of Sharon for that outrageous statement -- the Butcher ran for the shelter.

so it is NOT against ISRAEL Bidwai is shouting FOUL -- it is against SHARON –

and my dear chowki brethren -- THERE IS A DIFFERENCE-- THERE IS S DIFFERENCE --

BETWEEN THE TWO...........

Re : rsridhar # 260
Yes they do. We have transit facilities through Bangladesh to the NE states and they have a transit facilities through Indian territory.

Faruk

re:#255 by Faruk
Does Bangladesh grant India transit rights thr` its territory to the North-East? This had been a bone of contention in the past. Last i heard, it was still a NO from the other side.
Sridhar

nasah#252
Thanks for reminding me of Praful Bidwai-I`d forgotten he`d existed. He`s someone who needs to take some of the blame for what started out as the Hindu backlash to their religion constantly being demonised at worst and ignored or taken for granted at best and ended( I hope) with the Gujarat riots last year. In the process,India is now a different country. I remember the early 90s, reading his columns,it felt like almost everyday in TOI,(which used to have serious news and views in those days even if they were leftie), and then the news that riots had broken out after the masjid fell. And of course there is a connection. He`s made himself irrelevant now,but I see his views are still being promoted in some ways as the only sane ones. Sometimes leftists can be as intolerant as neo-cons. Bidwai sees no problem with setting off bombs here,there and everywhere;he blames the victims. Looking at what he did say,forgetting everything else, I very much doubt most leaders in continental Europe would not welcome him, even if they had some reservations. The Holocaust is still too recent to treat an elected leader of the Jewish state that badly. We can`t reprimand him, we`ve welcomed Zia and Khameini and never really reprimanded them..as Farzana says,we are know for our hospitality.

nasah #252

I can live with criticism of Sharon. The only problem with Bidwai`s of the world is: where were they when Peres and Rabins were in charge of Israel ?

stuka #245 ``Doofus: Aren`t you in the states? ``

nope. :)

pmishra #243``As for, doofus, yaar, please take your medication (maybe its a bi-polar disorder?) and try to calm down. ``

I am only a humble seeker of knowledge who would like to know the native historical name for this (allegedly) ancient `nation` called `India`. It`s the `Indians` who don`t seem to have an answer this question that are getting all flustered, and as a consequence. are becoming quite abusive.

Perhaps you can succeed where others have failed?

Every time Ariel Sharon`s guilt in the Shabra and Shatilla massacres is brought out, please remember that it was the PLO who converted Lebanon into the killing fields from 1975 onwards and that it was the killing of President Bashir Gemayel (duly elected by the people of Lebanon) in a powerful car bomb along with other innocent people by the PLO/Syrian combine which lead to the Shabra & Shatilla massacres by the Phalangists.

Re : harimau # 251
That is the official line. But for the last few years when the relations with Bangladesh have been improving their lands have not been flooded. They have transit rights through Indian territory, favorable trade deals, investment , access to Indian markets, educational aid and the list goes on. So we do effect change in Bangladesh.


Faruk