Shalom or Salaam

re:#24 by temporal
Sorry about my last post. I definitely misunderstood you there. And, thanks for the compliment.
Sridhar

re:#41 by Romair
Hey F.M Romair,
Read the following article:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=316697
Relevant excerpt:

``This is, however, not to trivialise the displacement of Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian. But this refugee crisis was more due to the obstinacy of the Arab States, which were keen on destroying the newly created State through a jehad than finding a lasting solution that would be accommodating of both Jewish and Palestinian aspirations. Unfortunately, this attitude prevails to this day. The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) charter and the Fatah constitution (that serves as the unofficial constitution for the Palestinian Authority as well) reiterate the destruction of Israel.``

Israel was woefully outnumbered when it came into existence. It was surrounded by Arab countries bent upon destroying it. Nothing has changed today except that Israel is so powerful that all these other countries look like pygmies. That equation is not going to change in future. The disparity in miltary strength is technology driven. Arab countries simply do not have the kind of technology that Israel has (nor do i see them gain that technology, given their scientific expertise in near future). But, there is always a possibility that some one will develop a crude bomb (or smuggle it out of Pakistan which is ever willing to help its Arab masters) and threaten the small landmass of Israel in a big way. That scenario is what bothers Israel most. They are not bothered about the suicide bombers or the stone throwing palestenian civilians, whatever their numbers may be.
Israel is preparing for that eventuality. It is interested in forging a strategic alliance with India to have a sea-based second strike capability in case its landmass is threatened. India of course is interested in Israels proven military technology and anti-terror tactics.
Sridhar

Re : dost-mittar # 75
The point I was trying to make was that most Muslims moved to Pakistan for pretty much the same reasons that you moved to Canada. They were not migrating to any Promised Land. That is why more people migrated to Pakistan after partition than during partition.

Regards,

Faruk

Asif

I think nothing is more clearer than this. If you look at the whole situation logically, it is clear that God gave an unprecedented chance and powers to Americans to establish rule of law and justiceth in this world. Instead they have used this opportunity to bring unprecedented misery upon the people of this world. The injustices are almost all encompassing. Is the time of one-eyed dajjal (an all encompassing evil) is upon us already?

Regarding Suicide Bombings

The very thought of suicide coupled with an act of homicide invokes horror in the hearts of all reasobable people everywhere in the world. It is particularly unsettling because of the very extreme nature of the act. It is perceived as something that cannot be contained by ordinary security measures. Its impact in military terms may be minimal but psychologically a suicide bomber (or a kamakazi pilot for that matter) takes a disproportionately larger toll than would be expected from merely the physical damage s/he causes. It is for this reason that this particular style of homicide is termed ``terrorism`` instead of just another method of ``war.`` Personally, I beleive, all forms of weapons and all wars are ultimately immoral, but in particular, a deliberate strategy to employ suicide as a weapon is a step even further.

It does not matter who employs this strategy, it is most undesirable. Now the question is who, in popular perception, is the poster child of suicide attacks in the world? It seems that most people will instinctively reply: Muslims. The more descerning ones may quailfy it further, narrowing down the circle of culpability, and say Palastinian Muslims.

But wait a minute, do the facts confirm this popular perception? Let`s see, how was Rajiv Gandhi killed? Do Tamil ``terrorists`` also employ this abominable tactic of sending their young and their women to self-extermination for a ``greater cause``? Is it true that the record holders in suicide bombings are Palastinians? Or could the Tamils also make that claim? Hope someone has the facts and figuers handy because I don`t feel like digging them out. Just curious...

...SR

mohar11, stuka:
State to state relations may improve thru` the visits of head of states, but I do not see any advantage of this visit at this particular juncture. They could wait until Israel had a Prime Minister who was not so universally viled, and not just by Muslims.
Indian Muslims hate Sharon for the same reason as Muslims elsewhere do. I am not one of those who says that a Muslim`s loyalty to the Umma should supercede his loyalty to his country; but it is also totally unrealistic to expect them not to have any empathy for their coreligionists, especially when this empathy does not clash with their loyalty to their own country.
It does not serve the interests of India or Indians to be perceived as an ally of the US and Israel in their war against the Arab/Islamic world.

Well said Urstruly bhai. It is only a matter of time before the Zionist Entity is finished once and for all. It might well be only when Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes but happen it will.
The Muslims can afford to lose a 100 wars with Israel--the Israelis can`t afford to lose one.
They know it. We know it. It is only a matter of time...
Perhaps we wont live to see such as glorious victory but our grandchildren or great grandchildren certainly will. So we are happy alhamdulillah because we have been given the good news of the final victory.

The Anti-Christ is going to be a Jew (its in the hadiths) and he will be the leader of the forces of kufr. [the Jews will think he is the Messiah they have been waiting for. I(t was actually Hazrat Isa but the ungrateful Jews rejected him and tried to kill him before Allah saved him by raising him to the Heavens)]. Imam Mahdi and Isa alayhisalam will be the leaders of the Muslims who will be vastly outnumbered. The army of the kaafirs will have 80 banners with I think 80, 000 people under each banner (UN?). The Muslim army will be small. Yet when Battle commences we shall be victorious in the end. Isa alayhisalam will kill the Anti-Christ. Then all the Jews will either have to convert or be killed (as part of Isa alayhisalam`s mission will be to abolish the jizya tax). Even the trees and the rocks will say to the Muslims, ``O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me--come and kill him!`` Except for the boxthorn tree because that is the tree of the Jews! The Jews know about this tradition which is why they have started to plant boxthorn trees all over Israel!!

We have all this on the authority of Allah and His Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. So we know we will be victorious in the end. So we just have to get on with our lives and wait for Allah to unveil His plan. Subhan Allah! :-)

Dost-mittar #78

{{can anyone tell me how welcoming Sharon, a symbol of hatred by Muslims throughout the world, enhances India`s security? All it does, in my opinion, is telling its Muslims that it doesn`t give a damn for their feelings.}}

Sharon’s war is not with Indian Muslims – or Moroccan Muslims – or Indonesian Muslims – or Bangladeshi Muslims – or even Pakistani Muslims. He and his country have not survived by picking unnecessary quarrels with all and sundry.

Is he really a symbol of hatred for all Muslims? He may be – for easily comprehensible reasons - hated by Arabs in the Middle East. Could it be that what hatred may be stirred up among Muslims elsewhere is simply the result of a particular kind of politicization that leads to allegiance to a mythical ummah rather than identification with their nation’s interests?

Do the majority of Indian Muslims really object to Sharon’s visit? Is it possible that too much weight is being given to the reactions of loudmouth self-appointed spokesmen of the community? Isn’t it patronizing to assume that Indian Muslims are incapable of identifying with their country first rather than with distant co-religionists?

One has to give credit where it is due.

Somehow or the other, India has been able to set up a situation, where the Palestinians see it as an ally and the Israelis see it as any ally, also. I cannot think of any other country that has been able to do that. While the Israelis see Pakistan as an enemy, and the Palestinians aren’t really too concerned about Pakistan, one way or the other (other than its nukes).

However, India maybe be pushing it a bit too much. It is one thing to have relations with Israel. It is another to voluntarily invite a person like Sharon, to a state visit. I don’t think even the American leadership would associate with him, had it not been for the pro-Israeli lobby within the USA.

Forgetting about human rights for a moment and looking at things in a purely realpolitik sense, the only way it makes sense for India to be so tight with the Israelis, is if its local Muslim population supports the policy also. If it doesn’t then the internal harm caused to India, by furthur alienating its Muslims, will outweigh any benefit gained through an Israeli alliance.

I think the current alliance with Sharon, specifically is based on the BJP’s own similarities of views and actions with him. There seems to be an agreement on ethnic cleansing (though not of holocaust proportions) amongst the two. Israel may be able to get away with it. But I really cannot see how India will be able to pull it off. Its Muslim population is too huge, and too intertwined in its society, to just be wished away. By courting Sharon, India is probably creating another dilemma for its Muslim population. Do they oppose Sharon, and hence oppose their country’s policies? Or do they support Sharon and change their own views? This could create a furthur wedge in the already wedging social fabric of India.

The only thing India really needs Israel for is to isolate Pakistan, through Israel’s influence in the USA. India already has a gigantic military, and needs more weaponry like Arnold needs more muscles. Its trade relations with Arabs are more important than any trade it may establish with Israel. It has more Muslims than Jews. I think the BJP in its desire to isolate Pakistan, may have overplayed its cards. It maybe sacrificing internal strength for a offensive foreign policy initiative, much like what Pakistan did when it allied itself with the Taliban.

Unless, of course, Indian Muslims also support India’s relations with Sharon. In which case, India has all its marbles (except human rights marbles) lined up correctly.

Beady #70

{{ I understand that we have had Indian Jews in relatively high positions, State Governors (Punjab Governor Jacob) and there was even an Indian Jewish general in the 1971 war (the name skips me right now).}}

Punjab Governor Jacob is the same person as then Major General J.F.R. Jacob who masterminded the logistics of the 1971 Bangladesh campaign. Incidentally, one of Indira Gandhi’s advisers at the time was a certain Peter Sinai in the External Affairs Ministry.

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DostMitter:

``While I agree with India seeking cooperation from anyone it deems fit, including Israel, in furthering its security objectives, can anyone tell me how welcoming Sharon, a symbol of hatred by Muslims throughout the world, enhances India`s security?``

It is not Sharon, it is the Prime Minister of Israel. State to state relations are enhanced by visits of heads of state.




``All it does, in my opinion, is telling its Muslims that it doesn`t give a damn for their feelings. ``

Ttelling Muslims? What kind of Muslims? The Muslims who think like normal rational people will care about benefits that accrue to India. The Naqshbandi types, I am very glad that we do not give a damn about their feelings.

#78 by dost-mittar
//can anyone tell me how welcoming Sharon, a symbol of hatred by Muslims throughout the world, enhances India`s security?... All it does, in my opinion, is telling its Muslims that it doesn`t give a damn for their feelings. ..//

You are right. Inviting sharon does go against indian muslim feelings. But why is their feelings against Sharon anyway? He kills palestinians and Palestinians his people. How does that matter to indian muslims?

How come there was no muslim feelings when Musharraf was invited? He killed (and still killing) thousands of Indians in Kargil and Kashmir , didn`t he?

Guess who supplied the bullets that pushed back Musharraf`s jihadis in Kargil and won the war for India - it was israel. How come nobody`s feelings are getting aroused for the coutry that helped us in our time of need and saved the nation`s integrity?

And how does the visit decrease India`s security. DO you mean to say that - muslim feelings will be so enraged that they will start suicide bombing their own country?

It only confirms and re-affirms that the words of Dr. Samuel P. Huntington were prophetic. I think the new alliances are emerging with detrmination and goal to wipe the Muslim civilization off this planet for good, in near future. This should be a reason enough for us to seek new alliances and strengthen our ranks too. It will eventually happen, though there is a greater chance that plague and other ``epidemics`` may strike the Muslims lands first. Ahadith predict a final conflict in syria, where ``hindi`` (pakistani?) army will strike jews, christian, and pagan allliance with a ``blindening lightening`` and the conflict will end.

Ref dost-mittar #75

[Garam Hawa was a great film. And quite realistic, too. If I remember correctly, it showed how one brother left for the Promised Land (creating problem for the other who remained).]

Art does NOT imitate life, as it is usually thought.

Zakir Hussain remained in India and became President of the country while his brother migrated to Pakistan and hasn`t been heard from since then.

Beaty, Stuka, others:
While I agree with India seeking cooperation from anyone it deems fit, including Israel, in furthering its security objectives, can anyone tell me how welcoming Sharon, a symbol of hatred by Muslims throughout the world, enhances India`s security? All it does, in my opinion, is telling its Muslims that it doesn`t give a damn for their feelings.