Shalom or Salaam

#225 by FarzanaVersey

I`ll presume you`re addressing me, though you haven`t mentioned any names...

first, you accuse me of having a desperate need to be accepted and legitimised here as a newbie (legitimised? why? do newbies need to be legitimised on chowk?) let me tell you that I am accepted, yea, even loved, in too many places (online and off) to have any such need... speak for yourself ... but I do confess to the dreadful crime of being a newbie (yes m`lord I plead guilty...)

As for valid points, I`ll trouble you to read my posts again (don`t if you`d rather not); and even if there wasn`t anything in them, I`m not interested only in my own posts... I read those of others too... and if they`ve raised strong points I will definitely speak up in support and will be keen on seeing the author`s response to them.

I admit that my question in my last post was a bit below the belt, but that was entirely provoked by your statement :
``This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.``

When you post an article on a public forum, you are giving the reader the right to read it and comment on it as he sees fit... provided the bounds of decency aren`t crossed, of course. It`s not for you to tell him to keep silent. If you don`t like criticism, too bad. Keep the piece to yourself then, instead of sharing it.

And on your last board, all I said was that this was an OK article that deserved neither so much abuse nor so many rahrahs. Did that hurt so much? And surely no one can deny that in the hysteria of excessive abuse by one group and defence by the other, the basic worth (or lack thereof) of the article itself gets forgotten. Was that too close to the truth to be comfortable? And is that why after determinedly ignoring me for so long, you now felt compelled to let loose this barrage of silly insults? :)

Come come, Farzana surely you can do better than that. You`d better not waste any condolences on me, you need them all for yourself. And if at all you feel the need to reply to this post, please use my name; it`s so childish to avoid it. Don`t think you`ll be giving me a high or something by taking my name; I`m used to being called by it all day :).

#225 by FarzanaVersey

``as newbies around they are picking up all the right things to say and even how to address certain chowkies. Good job.``

Rather amusing that you`ve been examining all my posts with so much thoroughness, even while pretending to ignore me...

Farzana:

BTW I JUST REALIZED THE IMPORT OF YOUR ``WHERE WERE YOU`` post. HAHAHA, and I find it absolutely hilarious that people question your nationalism. You are unique I must say.

Waisey, don`t be surprised if u are attacked on that post even. After all you did mention the Iran Iraq war..must be all because of you sympathies with the Muslims etc etc. Iits a bloody joke and a half.



Sorry about the intial caps. I am just to lazy to retype.

Farzana:

this time I have spared the NRIs...but look at the concern for the Israelis,``

I posted the article about Israelis, not to show support for the Yehoods but to show the moral ambuigity of the situation. Innocents are dyiong on both sides. Nneither side is clean. Therefore neither has a moral claim. I could care less if the bearded Yahoods with the long earlocks die. Those bastards are the crux of the problem. They never fought for Iisrael but create problems by demanding settlements.

``the Bangladeshis...``

The example of Bangladesh was taken to show the reverse. Their internal issues are not India`s problem unless India is directly effected with refugees. Faruk`s case of Malaysia is a different example because it was about Indian citizens working there.



``and soon we will find it on the 9/11 board too for the US, and again I will not say anything about NRIs, for that is their adopted home...``

Yes. Concern for those who live in a country is not only desirable, it is expected. And once you voluntarliy accept citizenship of a country then that is where your primary responsibility lies. Anything else is to be a Namak Haraam.

Waisey, thanks for saying I am not a fascist. But I do believe in capitalism though. I thought you knew that?

``do you grant Pakistan the right to stage another Kargil ``

Oofcourse. And we have the right to respond as we see fit.

A bit of a digression, but…

Where were you when the Partition of India happened?
Where were you during the Bangladesh War?
Where were you when the Armenian earthquake took place?
Where were you when Mrs. Indira Gandhi was assassinated?
Where were you when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was executed?
Where were you when the anti-Sikh pogrom took place?
Where were you when Rajiv Gandhi was killed by a suicide bomber?
Where were you when parts of Eastern Europe were being spliced?
Where were you when the Gujarat earthquake happened?
Where were you when the Bombay riots of 1992-93 took place?
Where were you when the Bombay blasts happened soon after?
Where were you when Godhra happened?
Where were you when the Gujarat riots were taking place?
Where were you when Iraq and Iran went to war and stayed that way for eight years?
Where were you when the Gulf War happened?
Where were you during Operation Desert Storm?
Where were you when the US started bombing Afghan civilians to look for a man in a cave?
Where were you when America attacked Iraq to look for weapons that they have not yet found?
Where were you when Kargil happened?
Where were you when the recent blasts happened in Mumbai?

There are so many reasons to know where we were…and these queries are not posed to you. For, even I do not know where I was when most of these disasters/calamities took place…so I do not know where I was when 9/11 happened.

But you are supposed to know. The media in our subcontinent will remind you because they cannot feel left out. People who do not want you to think about other societies would also think this is important enough to recall. I can understand those who live in the US/Canada having vivid memories; or those who have relatives there being worried…but I do not see why that date should become a part of our local psyche. To be concerned about the new world order, terrorism, religion and politics etc is of course important, but to deify a date? But then we also remember when Princess Diana met with that fateful accident.

Therefore, I wonder if those living overseas could check with the Americans and the Brits if they recall any of the incidents I have mentioned. Do they know where they were…do they even know that such places exist?

If we wish to talk about a world where equality must reign, then knowledge of other societies is a great equaliser.

nb (#226):

Being sensitive is not a crime. Re. reacting strongly to opinions, have you read the posts? The nitpicking? I am reacting to that, not people`s beliefs. Yes, you are right about my `past` and where I wrote etc...and I had interviewed the Palestinian ambassador, right, but I also like talking to common folks to get a different perspective. I thought the constant drone of why I met them was a bit off...

Israelis are not the Jews of the Holocaust, therefore the comparison with Gujarat in my opinion is not valid. I am afraid i did not respond to a couple of your earlier posts because I was trying to explain things in a more general fashion, as most of the arguments were pretty much the same.

#197 by SR

You`re welcome.

I`m pretty sure it wouldn`t cost anywhere near Rs 2.5 lacs pa to educate the boy in India. The IITs and RECs ought to be a lot cheaper as they are Govt run. The difficulty would be in getting admission, of course. There`s so much tough competition, and he`d have to be really brilliant. You`ll have to check out the procedure for foreign students. If that fails, there are always the lesser institutions all over the country... (that is to say, they are lesser to the IITs etc, but they`re still pretty good). For instance, in Bangalore there is the MS Ramaiah Institute of Technology, which is excellent (Infosys recruited 73 MSRITians this year); it has a lot of foreign students.

All the best!

# 194

You`re right, there`s no IIT in Bangalore. There`s an REC though, a 6 hrs journey away, in Surathkal; that`s one of the best RECs in the country.

alephnull #212 ``When has ‘right’ ever mattered in the affairs of nations? ``

Morality is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in the affairs of nations. Indeed, even in personal lives `morality` is rather like `father christmas` or `love` or the other fairy stories we invent to comfort ourselves. But we have come a long way from righteous indignation at Jinnah`s `tearing asunder of one people` to this `we think we are a nation therefore we are a nation who cares what anyone else thinks` and this Machiavellian `might is right`


BTW since right doesn`t matter in the affairs of nations, do you grant Pakistan the right to stage another Kargil or Kashmiri millitants to plant bombs in Indian cities? It will be very interesting to hear your response. If you can`t be moral, I hope you can at least be consistent. We shall see.

Re : rsridhar # 199
Sridhar,
I never implied that you said “all muslims” only “most muslims”. What I was pointing out is that you statement is not a fact just your prejudice.

Faruk

Re : rsridhar # 202
Sridhar,
“Hindus in India do not react the way muslims would to the atrocities on hindu minorities in Bangladesh”
How often do you see protests in Bangldesh or for that matter in Pakistan against incidents in India. Most protests are organized by politicians to shore up there base.

“Should India intervene and send troops into Bangladesh because atrocities are being committed on the hindu population in Bangladesh? I do not think so. “

I don’t think so either. But India does innerve, we have throughout the nineties. Most of Bangladesh trade is with India and political pressure usually helps. When that does not work we open our dams and flood their land. This is well documented too.


Faruk

Farzana, why do you react so strongly when your readers disagree on a matter of opinion?For someone who`s been around the traps for a long time,you`re pretty sensitive.
When I lived in Bombay some years ago,you used to write pieces for the Bombay times-or was it Mid-Day, or both?Why shouldn`t you meet the Palestinian ambassador? I for one assumed you were doing some sort of interview with him.
You make no mention of what you think of Israel. You mention the Holocaust, but wouldn`t you expect an event like that to change a community for ever? You have talked of Gujarat changing Indian Muslims. Well, do the maths,2000 versus 6 million...where do people expect the Jews to go? You don`t say anything about that.
To pmishra,alephnull,rsridhar..we don`t need to prove we are a nation, especially to someone who won`t accept any amount of proof. I`d suggest ignoring him. dost-mittar always seems to be what the Jews call a mensch-but an obvious product of the Nehruvian secularism which led to the eventual popularity of the Sangh, trying too hard to keep the other side happy- dionysus thinks even dostmittar is a closet fascist.

I can understand some people`s desperate need to be legitimised and accepted here...as newbies around they are picking up all the right things to say and even how to address certain chowkies. Good job.

As regards valid points...have they looked at their own posts? Besides latching on to what others are saying, have they said anything of consequence? Obviously, it seems like such a good idea to take up the ``do not insult your readers`` stance. Those interactors who have been indulging in muck-raking are aware of their intelligence...pity that you are not confident about yours. That is, if you have in fact put yourself in that category of muck-rakers. Yeah, of course, it is a better place to be in; you get instant visibility. Which is why such people turned up on my last board late in the day and started with discussing rahs by Pakistanis and bahs by Indians for me. And even here, the first comment is about ``lack of hysteria``. It must make them feel so left out, that they pick on stray comments by others...there are veterans here who belong to the FV boards bandwagon, and I realise that those who have nothing original to say would want to join in...

Never mind the `high level` of intellectual discourse that included such precious arguments like visiting the Sea Lounge, meeting Palestinian students (no one has interestingly asked why I met the ambassador), writing about other societies etc...

But, as the writer of this piece, it is my prerogative to moderate and respond as I deem fit. Because I have not resorted to cheap shots. The readers do have a choice of not reading, not interacting.

As for my being ``disappointed that this time there weren`t any personal attacks``...I think insinuations, use of certain nicks, deliberately ignoring something and twisting it ...all constitute personal attacks. I am surprised a woman can come up with with this sort of comment, for as one who has been at the receiving end I truly know what it means. I do not have to say anything more on this subject except that such sad creatures can only get my deep condolences.

---

concerned (#216):
[if you are referring to nris and india, then are we to assume that you are a palestinian living in india?]
No, this time I have spared the NRIs...but look at the concern for the Israelis, the Bangladeshis...and soon we will find it on the 9/11 board too for the US, and again I will not say anything about NRIs, for that is their adopted home... I can be very reasonable at times.

satire (#220):
If you knew what your name meant, then you would have known what I meant...never mind.

Farzana

#214 by FarzanaVersey

``This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.``

Please don`t try to insult your readers. If you don`t have anything to say in answer to the valid points so many people have raised, it`s possible for you also to keep quiet, you know.

(you wouldn`t by any chance be disappointed that this time there weren`t any personal attacks on you? ;))

#221 stuka


The document written by Henry Kissinger stands as a monstrous indictment of his ego, fundamental inhumanity, hubris and ugly character. It`s primary purpose is a kind of crude settling of scores with Secretary Rogers and even with Nixon. This is accompanied by a kind of crude and boastful discourse on ``national interest`` and ``world order``.

More than a million bengalis were killed in 1971; you will find NO mention of it in his document. The only mention of death or killing is the following:

[quote]
-probably without the excesses of brutality, including public bayoneting, in which the Indian-trained guerrillas, the Mukti Bahini, engaged when they in turn terrorized Dacca.
[end-quote]

What can I say? More than a million bengalis were killed by the Pakistanis? But for the shameless and self-serving, the main problem was the excesses of the Mukti Bahini!

Aleph Null:

``We see an eerie echo of this now in the Pakistanis who attempt to use `moral` and `human rights` arguments in a vain attempt to gain disproportionate leverage against India. ``

It is vain only inasmuch as the environment is conducive to India at the moment. I would not grudge them for attempting to use it as we have in the past and sometimes do so now.