Shalom or Salaam

Aleph Null:

Sorry, I posted on the wrong board. Here is the link..

http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/chaps/kiss_71.htm

It is a long read but an excellent one. I have posted some remarks on the other board.

Re: #214 by Farzana Versey,

[No insult taken, since I do not know who you are talking about! Am terrible at remembering names;) ]

Sure, ofcourse. Just be careful taking the ignorance plea. Would affect your credibility as a writer.


Satire

#218 stuka

{{Excellent statement by Henry Kissinger: Thanks to His Excellency for providing the link.}}

Where? HE hasn`t shown up on this thread.

{{Kissinger correctly views the fallacy of Nehruvian ``moral`` foreign policy.}}

The case has been made that Nehru`s `moral` foreign policy was a carefully constructed facade; that he was a supreme realist in international affairs; and that the `fallacy` if any was of those Indians who came after him who actually bought into any of the moralising rhetoric.

{{We hardly noticed that this was precisely the policy by which a weak nation seeks influence out of proportion to its strength}}

We see an eerie echo of this now in the Pakistanis who attempt to use `moral` and `human rights` arguments in a vain attempt to gain disproportionate leverage against India.

Excellent statement by Henry Kissinger: Thanks to His Excellency for providing the link. Kissinger correctly views the fallacy of Nehruvian ``moral`` foreign policy.

``In the 1950s and 1960s, America, oblivious to these new countries` absorption with themselves, sought to fit them into its own preconceptions. We took at face value Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru`s claim to be neutral moral arbiter of world affairs. We hardly noticed that this was precisely the policy by which a weak nation seeks influence out of proportion to its strength, or that India rarely matched its international pretensions with a willingness to assume risks, except on the sub-Continent where it saw itself destined for preeminence.``

#209 Doofus


Doofus, the great thinker writes (but does he really exist?? Where is the proof?)

[quote]
Only a fool would draw a comparison between America and India. America is the child of England.
[end-quote]

Really? I guess you have added ignorant babbling about the US to your list of accomplishments. I suggest you read the speeches and writings of Washington, Jefferson and Adams to understand their relationship to Europe. Nothing about it suggests a deep relationship to England. On the contrary, it suggests a general relationship to forces of the ``Enligtenment`` and ``Rationalism`` and deep disgust with many 17th and 18th century european traditions. Ben Franklin actually suggested at one point the use of Hebrew as the national language to separate the US from what he viewed as ugly european traditions.

Finally, we get the nub of the matter:

[quote]
The multi-racial America of today with it`s masses of computer coolies is a very recent thing.
[end-quote]

Multi-racial america is a recent thing? Hmmm, I wonder what Booker T. Washington or Frederick Douglas would have made of that a 100 years ago. Of course, the real issue is to bring in the irrelevant ``code coolies`` image into the discussion.

Well, I am happy to be a productive code coolie providing sustenance to my family. It is hell of a lot better than being a stupid and murderous suicide bomber, just to give an example.

#214:

[...And those objecting to my concern for some far-away land are, ironically, doing so for other far-away lands...]

if you are referring to nris and india, then are we to assume that you are a palestinian living in india?

Dionysus #213

{{However, the `vast majority` do not have the right to `think` for others and to invade the countries of or to use brutal methods to suppress those who do not `think` like them.}}

When has ‘right’ ever mattered in the affairs of nations? Who defines it anyway? Long-term viability is all that counts. If the majority of the population endorses the use of brutal methods, brutal methods will be used where deemed necessary. Committed armed terrorists cannot be fought with kid gloves – there is generally no course but to liquidate them. My main concerns are that the use of brutal methods be specifically cleared by democratic leaders ultimately accountable to the public that elected them; that they ensure that these methods are used judiciously and not indiscriminately; that their use is periodically reviewed for continued appropriateness and effectiveness.

{{The only thing that has kept India in its present form is the most brutal violence - in East Punjab, in Indian Occupied Kashmir, in Assam and in other places.}}

The case of ‘East Punjab’ is a good one since the cycle has run its course there. Whatever other roots the Punjab insurgency might have had in real and imaginary historical grievances, it was exacerbated by unwarranted central interference in state politics and denial of democratic rights. Yet even at its height the armed insurgency did not have majority support through Punjab or even among Sikhs, though the majority might have been too cowed by insurgent terror to make their feelings known. The strategy followed by the Indian government was to annihilate armed insurgents and then invite everyone else to participate in fair and open democratic politics. It seems to have worked. Clearly there were factors beyond brutal violence that made Punjab’s remaining in India viable – whether it was a general feeling of connectedness with the rest of India, or the economic opportunities that India provides, or the foretaste that the insurgency provided to what life in a theocratic state might be like, or merely an understanding of the futility of defining identity in sharp and monolithic terms.

There is no reason why the same strategy should not work in Jammu and Kashmir – despite determined opposition from the Pakistani ruling establishment - though the cycle may take some more time to complete.

“The very reason that brought us to India is responsible for the cutting short of the visit: Terror.” – Israeli deputy PM, Yosef Lapid.

Well…everyone has contributed more than their bit to the discussion.

This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.

I could have given some smart-alecky riposte to Avkrishna (#10) when he asked, “Did
Israel invaded Palestine and occupy all that territory? Why wait for 20 more years to occupy the other parts then?” These are recorded facts, but I assumed the query was sincere and I had no reply. All I am aware of is that the settlements came up in a slow and well-planned manner.

And those objecting to my concern for some far-away land are, ironically, doing so for other far-away lands. The world really is a small place. And stuka is not a fascist...in fact he does not believe in `isms`, not even capitalism. Not all Republicans are capitalists :)

Yogiraj (#154):
Since you came in late, you probably thought it fit to read only the posts…I suggest you take a look at the article too. I am tired of reiterating the same thing. If you want to work it through…it will.

Satire (#173):

[I was refering to a more historic thug circa 7th century AD. His tactics weren`t to different from Mr. Sharon`s. No insult intended, simply meant in a polarized society
someone who is a thug to one is a hero to another.]

No insult taken, since I do not know who you are talking about! Am terrible at remembering names;)

Sigalph (#143):
If you haven’t changed your mind in these past few hours, then thanks…and yes, sometimes this place reminds me of, as they might say in Bengali, amar saisaber din ratri :)

Alephnull #211

At last a well-argued and coherent response. After initally coming out all guns blazing, rsridhar is now hiding under his sofa. Stuka goes into a childish giggling fit at the slightest provocation and, fool that he is, convinces himself that he`s winning an argument.

``In the end, it is enough for a group of people to constitute a nation that the vast majority of them think they do``

If the vast majority think they are a nation then good for them. I don`t have a problem with them making choices for themselves based on what they `think`. However, the `vast majority` do not have the right to `think` for others and to invade the countries of or to use brutal methods to suppress those who do not `think` like them. And this is where your argument for India falls flat on its face. The only thing that has kept India in its present form is the most brutal violence - in East Punjab, in Indian Occupied Kashmir, in Assam and in other places.

rsridhar:
``The political fall out of all this (increased migration to India, change in demography etc) is of course India`s problem. Should India intervene and send troops into Bangladesh because atrocities are being committed on the hindu population in Bangladesh? I do not think so. ``
Do you realise that this was precisely the reason why India intervened in East Pakistan? But I agree that India has no right to intervene in BD`s domestic problem.

Arguing whether India was historically a nation misses the point. The whole nation-state system is historically fairly recent.

What is indisputable is that India has been a coherent civilization for a very long time, two millennia at least, and that the geographical area between the Himalayas and the sea that served as this civilization’s home base has been recognized as such by its inhabitants for quite as long and referred to by names such as Bharatvarsha or the much rarer Jambudvipa.

At various times in the last 2500 years large portions of the land have been united under a single ruler or system of rule. At other times the land of India has been politically fragmented. Indian civilizational coherence has persisted through this period and arguably gotten stronger. The civilization is known for its property of digesting and assimilating outside influences into its whole.

Political fragmentation of the territory and the development of local nationalities/subnationalities was inevitable in an epoch when long-range travel was difficult and dangerous. Modern travel and mass communications facilitate the reverse process of integration, particularly when it has the subtle encouragement of the unified political entity that governs the territory.

In the end, it is enough for a group of people to constitute a nation that the vast majority of them think they do. Independent India seems to have had considerable success in inculcating that feeling in the vast majority of its citizens.

stuka #206 ``I see. And America is not a nation either? Right? ``

Only a fool would draw a comparison between America and India. America is the child of England. It inherited England`s language, culture, science, philosophy, literature, ethos, values, laws and a very healthy dose of English blood. It later on took in Western European immigrants like the Germans but they were totally assimilated into America`s English-derived culture and adopted the American identity. The multi-racial America of today with it`s masses of computer coolies is a very recent thing. Will it succeed? That remains very much to be seen, but things aren`t looking too good.

``#197 by SR on September 11, 2003 7:26am PT
anuradha, Farzana, Faruk, harimau

Thank you very much for your feedback. Gives a good starting point. This is a good kid and a smart one. Engineering is just what the kid wants to do and the father, a nice man who is a tour guide, does not have the wherewithall to cough up Rs. 2.5 lakh annually so he needs some help. It occurred to me that there must be better (and perhaps even cheaper) options in India. Your comments have helped a lot. Thanks again.

...SR ``

Sirjee,

Do not go and start shedding money.

We do have a special written and unwritten contracts with Nepal, Bhutan, Iran, Iraq and Afganistan.

Nepal is the easiest. They have rights to be, live and enjoy every single right as an Indian.

Do not shed 2.5 lacs.

If the kid is good, all that is required is passing of entrance exam with flying colours. There are n # of them. Choose the right ones. If the kid can`t pass. Well even 25 lacs will not do.


Yogiraj Patil

stuka#27, dionysus#201, others:
Why not carry on this discussion on a single board? I suggest that the hamdani board is more appropirate for this. Thanks.

Dionysus:

``Please share your deep and secret knowledge with us benighted lesser mortals. ``

Wasiey, I am quite glad that you have realized your true Auqat!! :)

Dumbasus:

``Not race, not language, not history, not identity, not culture, not blood``

I see. And America is not a nation either? Right?

It is a common set of values and objectives along with a dominant religio-cultural identity that goes towards forming a nation.

So come you did not address the issue of Bharat? Too uncomfortable a word for you since it evokes a sense of nationalism in ancient Indian history? Tthereby throwing your Pakistan Studies curriculum where it belongs? In the gutter? HAHA!!