Shalom or Salaam

nasah bhaijaan:
Glad to be on the same page with you again - almost.
It seems to me that Islamists are already in control of the Palestinian struggle and the secular elements have taken a back seat.
...Agreed about Hanan Ashrawi, but when was the last time you saw her face on the TV, or that of Clovis Maksoud, the indefatiguable secretary of the Arab League, former ambassador to India and a champion of Palestinians?
I agree re. Israelis. Shimon Peres is the closest one - he and Ashrawi could probably work things out, if given a chance.
[BTW your non-comment on my Indian secularism artilce politely tells me that you do not approve my analysis!]

merey bhai dost-mittar sahib -- I know -- I have great respect and admiration for MJ Akbar he is one the most level headed responsible civilized columnists -- my allusion to him was purely rhetorical.

I agree with you squarely about Palestinian leadership -- Arafat is the father of the Palestinian nation albeit still an immature one -- with Clinton and Ehud Barak peace was almost at hand -- but he messed it up -- as if he was afraid of being imprisoned by Peace --
now he is as much a prisoner of the Israeli Extreme Right as he is of the Islamist Extreme right --

if anything -- one would like to accuse him of allowing the Islamists extremists erode the secular tenets of Palestinian struggle .....

but I don`t think that the Islamist will ever be able to take over Palestinian struggle -- its character will remain secular -- because of its mixed (Christian and Muslim) nature --

for me the best candidate for the prime minister ship of Palestine is a Palestinian woman -- one of the most rational and articulate member of Arafat inner circle -- Hannan Ashrawi -- if only she stops smoking like Palestinian men......

A Palestinian Gandhi …… a Palestinian Mandela………..well ……if only there was an Israeli Prime minister named ……Einstein.....:-)

Nasah#281
Bhaijaan, you are a bit unfair to MJ Akbar. Not siding with one side does not always means not choosing between good and evil. I am sure Akbar would see the irony of the victims of the Nazi butchery burning homes and firing with tanks on little kids.
But Palestinian leadership, in condoning suicide bombers, is also not being very helpful. To me, Israel is one issue where justice is not feasible. True justice would mean Palestinians` right to return to the current state of Israel. This would mean that Israel would eventually turn into an Arab majority state. When that happens, and if it is still a democracy, what are the chances that the majority will not declare it to be an Islamic state? I have met very few Arabs who believe that jews have any right to live in Israel. At best, they might be willing to make a Hudbaiya like temporary settlement.
In my pesonal, and perhaps biased, opinion, Palestinians would get a lot more support if they adopt the methods of Gandhi or Mandela instead of keep fighting using the `j` word. [If you have noticed, you now hear less from secular militant groups, such as those headed by the old war-horse George Habash]

Farzana 276,
When I talk of homeland here, I mean a concept which in Bengali is `bari`, the permanent home, and Kashmiri Hindus have lost theirs, maybe forever. I can`t add to what Maharana and Harimau have said, so I won`t-how is it that the Jordanians aren`t expected to house the Palestinians and the later want their own homes back? And I understand why they do.
About the violence,good to be reminded you`re a peacenik....surprise every time:) But you did expect the Pandits to stay in Kashmir despite the violence and implied they were cowards because they could not and did not fight -that`s why I suggested you only take people seriously if they are willing to be violent.
Harimau, we don`t know that Farzana isn`t sponsoring someone. Apparently,Sachin Tendulkar has sponsored 200 kids for some years now and only spoke about it recently(I think he was a bit aggrieved at all the attention Waugh gets.;)) I don`t tell everyone what I do by way of charity. How do we know what she does?

``MJ Akbar who are much admired for their balanced approach``(DOST-MITTAR)

merey aziz bhai dost-mittar saheb -- ub aap hee bataaiye ke -- between the oven operator SS guards of Auschwitz and the charred bodies of their Jewish victims -- HOW our much admired `non committed` MJ Akber saheb will come up with his `balanced` approach?

-- that the charred Jews were also partly to be blamed as to why they brought themselves to a situation that they had to be gassed and cremated alive?......

-- or to achieve `journalistic balance` and `fair play` for BOTH sides -- should the VICTIM Jews be criticized for not using the suicide bombing against the Nazis in place of dying in droves without a whimper?.....

if I may be excused for saying this -- when the lines between EVIL and GOOD are drawn so clearly -- we need Bidwais not MJ Akbers....

between the Sharonite Nazis with their missiles, F16`s, Tanks and Helicopters poised and used against the defenseless Palestinian children -- the LINES between EVIL and GOOD are drawn as clearly as they were between armed to the teeth German Nazis with their Panzer Division Blitzkrieg -- and the poor defenseless European Jews being rounded all over occupied Europe for deportation to the gas chamber

may be MJ Akber Sahib would disagree with Palestinians for not emulating the European Jews on the way to the oven --

why ARE they fighting back?

for the sake of journalistic balance......

Ref Miss Poison Pen #276

[The Kashmiri Pandits have had to leave their homes/were driven out, but they do have a `homeland`: India.]

But somehow, the Palestinians who were driven out do not have a homeland in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, the UAE or Saudi Arabia. They alone have the right of return to Palestine.

I suppose you would say -- Iactually gave you the opportunity but you chose not to take it -- that the Hindu Sindhis who were driven out have a homeland in India and that the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh have a ``homeland`` in Bangladesh or perhaps Bihar.

I admire your generosity toward your co-religionists. Or should I say your fellow-travellers in criminal enterprise?

[As for the `violence` in your post, you are talking to a peacenik :) ]

As someone put it, ``Islam is a religion of peace. If you don`t believe in it, you will rest in peace.``

People like you bring shame to honorable men like nasah.

Instead of ranting and raving on Chowk, perhaps you can sponsor a single Muslim`s education in a trade such as welding, machining, carpentry or machining or even driving, a trade that is in demand in the Middle East so that you can raise that poor family out of destitution. But ``no, that is the responsibility of the Indian government and they are discriminating against the Indian Muslims`` is your constant refrain. By the same token, the Indian government is discriminating against every single person who is poor. If the middle class in India has increased that is because they applied themselves to education, got a skill that is needed and packed out of their hometowns, be it to Bombay or Bahrain. You could spread awareness of the need for adapting to the world. Instead, the only role model you yourself offer is that of a rabble-rouser.

People like you make me puke.

Farzana # 276,

``The Kashmiri Pandits have had to leave their homes/were driven out, but they do have a `homeland`: India.``

So do the Kashmiri muslims :India. So why fight?

Adios

#274 by scott

Aajkal male aur females ka equality ka zamaana hai :)

Nasah bhaijaan#264
I agree with almost everything PB said. The problem is not with the message but the messanger. I do not recall any article by Bidwai devoted to a condemnation of Palestinian suicide bombers. Praful has marginalised himself in India by his one-sided commentaries. Once a commentator establishes a reputation as a committed ideologue, whether he is a neocon or a leftist, one`s opinions have minimal impact on the non-committed and keep converting only the already converted. Contrast that with commentators like MJ Akbar who are much admired for their balanced approach, so when they criticise, people sit up and listen.

nb (#272):
The Kashmiri Pandits have had to leave their homes/were driven out, but they do have a `homeland`: India. As for the `violence` in your post, you are talking to a peacenik :)

Ref Faruk #273

India would like transit rights for shipping freight through the Bangladesh road and rail network to Manipur, Tripura, Nagaland, Mizoram, etc. India doesn`t have that right today and all traffic from places like Calcutta have to go north and across the narrow neck between Bhutan and Bangladesh to get to the far eastern states.

Re : sigalph235 #271
India has a limited transit facility through Bangladesh under the provisions of the India-Bangladesh Inland Water Transit and Trade Protocol which has been in operation since 1972. What I think you are talking about is urestricted transit. That `s a treaty India & Bangladesh have not been able to work out yet.

Faruk

Baap ray male interactors to gali deytay thay yeh female interactor bhi stalk karnay lagi!

Farzana,there are many differences between the plight of Kashmiri Hindus and that of the Palestinians, but they do share in common an inability to live in their homeland. Why do you feel so differently about these two groups? I feel sorry for both of them, but I guess the Pandits aren`t going to be taken seriously until they start suicide bombing places where supporters of the militants hang out, or,shock!horror! take their campaign to Islamabad.
265
Excuse me, Rainbow or navida or Tipu or whatever you may wish to be called. Take issue if you wish with the facts that jaym put forward, but what makes you think people have not heard of Charu Majumdar or Mahashweta Devi?

re 261

India has never granted transshipment to Bangladesh in spite of ad nauseum free trade rhetoric of Yashwant Sinha. The reason is that both Bhutan and Nepal have wanted to use Bangladesh seaports and that obviously threatens India`s stranglehold on the trade with these landlocked countries. Of course, given this situation, Bangladesh has not given the same to India until New Delhi reciprocates.

re:#261 by Faruk
Thanks for the info.
Sridhar

re:#264 by nasah
Thanks for correcting my mistake. That sure was an oversight. But i would still differ with you on one thing. Sharon may be a ``pariah`` in the eyes of some people but i always held this view (which to me is like a spiritual principle) that violence begets more violence and Sharon is just an extreme eg of that principle. He is trained as a military man and has defended his country well in the past and he is doing the same in the way he thinks best.

Is he doing the right thing by unleashing so much violence on his opponents?
We are again back to the chicken and egg analogy (just like in Kashmir). Who is to blame? The suicide bombers or the Israeli army? Who started first? All these things get murkier as violence is unleashed one after the other.
But there was a time PLO chariman Arafat could have determined the way his people fought this war. It could have been peaceful, just like the Tibetan struggle is. I mean, look at the LTTE. This is one brute force, which actually made suicide bombings into some kind of art form. These are fierce fighters but are they anywhere near their goal? And, their adversary (Srilankan govt) is not as powerful militarily as Israel is.
Both LTTE and Arafat seem to have lost touch with reality. They seem to think that violence is an end in itself rather than a means to an end (which is establishment of durable peace after attaining their goal). I believe at least the LTTE has in the past tried the ``peace route`` but has Arafat ever given peace a chance?
In a good analysis (by an Israeli, no doubt), this author argues how Arafat has let opportunities slip by as he stayed focussed only on tactics rather than ultimate goal. Read the article in the following Url to know the Israeli POV:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1063266360001
Excerpts:
1. ``Arafat was offered a state on a silver platter, without firing a shot, by Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton at the 2000 Camp David summit and he refused even to negotiate. Now he is being offered one again by Ariel Sharon and George W. Bush, if only he would give up terrorism, and again he won`t bite and even prevented his own appointed prime minister from doing so.``
2. ``The choice of terrorism as a tactic, and particularly the preference for terrorism even over the prospect of statehood, is integral to the idea that Israel is unacceptable in any size or form. Terrorism is only possible for people who have no intention of making peace with their victims under any circumstances. It is a tactic that is so critical to the ideology it supports that the line between tactics and ideology are blurred. ``
Sridhar

re:#264 by nasah
Further to my last post, i agree that Sharon may be a bad leader to negotiate peace. But he actually seems to have won the last elections on that very plank ie to be tough with his opponents. He is just doing what he has been expected to do. Israelis may have to throw him out if they feel he is not the right man for the job.
I just remembered something and thought i will share it with you and other chowkies. I read somewhere what Albert Einstein said: something like ``problems of the world cannot be solved by the very mind that created them in the first place``. Perhaps, solution to such problems is spiritual. Someday when all sides get wiser (after much of bloodshed and suffering) and have also moved up spiritually, they will find a way. The same holds true for the Kashmir problem.
Sridhar

#252 nasah

I think there are many better ways of protesting against Sharon than depending upon losers like Praful Bidwai. Mr. Bidwai is an extreme-left-wing commentator who spends his explaining why all of the problems of india originate from the indian state. And almost no time investigating how the indian state has been manipulated by extremists of all hues: left-wing, religous etc.

Our friend Angana Chatterji who recently appeared on Chowk also belongs to this category. You will recall that Angana is a person who lives in the USA but feels that american values and approach will be harmful to the Indians! To call such a person a hypocrite is to insult the word.


If Mr. Bidwai was a principled supporter of Israel it would be a different matter altogether. But this is not the case. I challenge you to producte a single column from this loser that says ANYTHING positive about Israel. Sharon is just a convenient stick with which to keep up the drum-beat of criticism.

#264 nasah
Bidwai might say in passing that he does not condone the violence but he never writes articles condemning it, did you see his articles after 11/9? Even for someone like me who thinks Israelis have gone overboard with annexation of Palestinian lands,it is hard to defend the Palestinian cause after events like the bombing at Cafe Hillel. The doctor who died was known to be a truly good man,and many older chowkies, Indian and Pakistani alike have probably benefited from his work,though they may not know it-he was a pioneer in thrombolytic therapy after myocardial infarctions (though not the only one). The cafe itself was in a left-leaning area,not the home of the Orthodox Jews at all(although it`s not ok to kill them either :))
The present Indian leadership isn`t devoid of self esteem, its just pragmatic, and high time too,we wasted so many years posturing. Lets not give India that much credit, Sharon didn`t need to visit India to be able to say he wants to throw Arafat out. One of his ministers is supposed to have said, lets kill him and Sharon said he didn`t want to hear that kind of talk. My theory, and I`m not taking it back,is that this will never end because both are people of the Book(the original people of the Book too) and neither will budge. The reason this hasn`t been going on for much longer was that Jews were too downtrodden and had to accept their lot,but not any more-unfortunately,they`re making up for lost time.
I`m not saying Sharon is a good man. But like I have said,neither were most of the foreign leaders who visit India. In all my years, I can only remember Mandela. (We`re not counting the Dalai Lama because he lives in India:))
I have asked myself what I would feel if the leader of an apartheid SA had been invied and I had to remind myself that wouldn`t have happened-he`d have refused the invitation-too many blackfellas. Israel on the other hand has nothing against India or Indians(except of course that we`re not the Chosen Ones,but we`re used to that)!

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Re: post # 261

Bangladesh didn`t grant transit or transhipment facility to India.

Re: Post # 255

``They have transit rights through Indian territory, favorable trade deals, investment , access to Indian markets, educational aid and the list goes on``

Bangladesh doesn`t have preferential access to Indian market. In fact, the former complain of non-tariff barrier put up by India.

``In the whole article he has not commented on suicide killers.``(Sridhar)

is that so sridhar miaN?

did you read this :``To demand this is not to support extremist or anti-Semitic positions against Israel or to condone indiscriminate violence against its citizens through methods like Hamas-style suicide-bombings``(PB)

PB is 100% right when he says:
``One must appreciate the exceptional, abnormal nature of India`s invitation to Mr Sharon.
Today, when Israel is waging war on the occupied territories, most nations wouldn’t even think of dignifying Mr. Sharon.``

Sharon is a PARIAH -- decent freedom loving countries in West don’t want to touch this rabid dog even with a ten foot pole --

Israel is not a Pariah country -- Sharon is --

Sharon is NOT Israel -- exactly the way Hitler was not Germany -- and Israel is NOT Sharon

Israel recognition is not in question -- recognition of Sharon IS –

with his history of past massacres and repeated genocide against a small community of defenseless Palestinians -- Sharon can sit with that ignorant, stupid moron from Texas who knows no history OR geography -- but he can`t sit with the leaders of India, who should know BETTER.

India is a very respectable country -- for India to give an audience to a CRIMINAL MURDERER -- and to impart respectability to a WAR CRIMINAL was to say the least extraordinary --

it simply shows how LITTLE self esteem the present leadership possesses for itself and its own famous country.

As for Sharon he would give his shirt off his back to gain even a semblance of respectability which he will use to commit another monstrous crime against the people of Palestine --

and he ALMOST did...

With his India trip the Likudnics got so cocky -- they proclaimed to the world that they will forcibly remove Arafat -- or EVEN KILL him! -- of course KILLING leaders of other countries and communities is in fashion now a days -- courtesy the Texas Stupido

but that was an extraordinary statement coming out of a cabinet that the Israeli government of Zionist thugs will announce to the world that the government will KILL Arafat.

of course when SHOES from all over the world started flying on the head of Sharon for that outrageous statement -- the Butcher ran for the shelter.

so it is NOT against ISRAEL Bidwai is shouting FOUL -- it is against SHARON –

and my dear chowki brethren -- THERE IS A DIFFERENCE-- THERE IS S DIFFERENCE --

BETWEEN THE TWO...........

Re : rsridhar # 260
Yes they do. We have transit facilities through Bangladesh to the NE states and they have a transit facilities through Indian territory.

Faruk

re:#255 by Faruk
Does Bangladesh grant India transit rights thr` its territory to the North-East? This had been a bone of contention in the past. Last i heard, it was still a NO from the other side.
Sridhar

nasah#252
Thanks for reminding me of Praful Bidwai-I`d forgotten he`d existed. He`s someone who needs to take some of the blame for what started out as the Hindu backlash to their religion constantly being demonised at worst and ignored or taken for granted at best and ended( I hope) with the Gujarat riots last year. In the process,India is now a different country. I remember the early 90s, reading his columns,it felt like almost everyday in TOI,(which used to have serious news and views in those days even if they were leftie), and then the news that riots had broken out after the masjid fell. And of course there is a connection. He`s made himself irrelevant now,but I see his views are still being promoted in some ways as the only sane ones. Sometimes leftists can be as intolerant as neo-cons. Bidwai sees no problem with setting off bombs here,there and everywhere;he blames the victims. Looking at what he did say,forgetting everything else, I very much doubt most leaders in continental Europe would not welcome him, even if they had some reservations. The Holocaust is still too recent to treat an elected leader of the Jewish state that badly. We can`t reprimand him, we`ve welcomed Zia and Khameini and never really reprimanded them..as Farzana says,we are know for our hospitality.

nasah #252

I can live with criticism of Sharon. The only problem with Bidwai`s of the world is: where were they when Peres and Rabins were in charge of Israel ?

stuka #245 ``Doofus: Aren`t you in the states? ``

nope. :)

pmishra #243``As for, doofus, yaar, please take your medication (maybe its a bi-polar disorder?) and try to calm down. ``

I am only a humble seeker of knowledge who would like to know the native historical name for this (allegedly) ancient `nation` called `India`. It`s the `Indians` who don`t seem to have an answer this question that are getting all flustered, and as a consequence. are becoming quite abusive.

Perhaps you can succeed where others have failed?

Every time Ariel Sharon`s guilt in the Shabra and Shatilla massacres is brought out, please remember that it was the PLO who converted Lebanon into the killing fields from 1975 onwards and that it was the killing of President Bashir Gemayel (duly elected by the people of Lebanon) in a powerful car bomb along with other innocent people by the PLO/Syrian combine which lead to the Shabra & Shatilla massacres by the Phalangists.

Re : harimau # 251
That is the official line. But for the last few years when the relations with Bangladesh have been improving their lands have not been flooded. They have transit rights through Indian territory, favorable trade deals, investment , access to Indian markets, educational aid and the list goes on. So we do effect change in Bangladesh.


Faruk

re:#252 by nasah
Purefool Badboy is a nut case. He is like the Don Quixote who thinks he is waging a war on a system and will succeed. He only sees what he sees fit. In the whole article he has not commented on suicide killers. Looks like we finally have an anti-semitic in India now.
Sridhar

Ref Faruk #227
[But India does innerve, we have throughout the nineties. Most of Bangladesh trade is with India and political pressure usually helps. When that does not work we open our dams and flood their land. This is well documented too.]

When India built the Farrakka Barrage, Bangladesh protested saying that India would stop the flow of water in the Ganges. If we actually open the floodgates (because the reservoir is overflowing during the monsoon), Bangladesh complains that we are flooding their country.

It is a question of dammed if you do and damned if you don`t!

PS. I just couldn`t resist the temptation ;-)

A Strong Case Against Sharon`s Visit to India

By Praful Bidwai

THE VAJPAYEE government has gratuitously pushed a grossly partisan, sectarian foreign policy agenda by inviting Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to visit India between September 9 and 11.

The significance of Mr Sharon`s presence in India on September 11 is obvious, indeed `in your face:` the present government, wedded to Hindutva, wants to underscore its solidarity with the Sharon regime in the common `fight against terrorism.`

Nothing could be more morally untenable and politically ill-conceived. As we see below, Mr Sharon is no consistent opponent of terrorism, but himself guilty of obnoxious forms of terrorism against the Palestinian people. All citizens and organizations committed to justice must demand that New Delhi withdraw the invitation to Mr Sharon.

To demand this is not to support extremist or anti-Semitic positions against Israel or to condone indiscriminate violence against its citizens through methods like Hamas-style suicide-bombings. Rather, it is to apply a consistent standard in dealing with the Palestine-Israel conflict -- one of the gravest crises of our time. Such a standard isn`t visible in the Vajpayee government`s remarkably awkward attempt to `balance` its tilt towards Israel by inviting Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Sha`ath to India. This looks like terribly clumsy afterthought.

One must appreciate the exceptional, abnormal nature of India`s invitation to Mr Sharon.

Today, when Israel is waging war on the occupied territories, most nations wouldn`t even think of dignifying Mr Sharon. He would certainly not be welcome in continental Europe. Even the US and the UK, which he recently visited, publicly rebuked him for some of his actions.

There are three reasons why Mr Sharon must be considered an undesirable guest. First, his right-wing Likud party has taken the most extreme stand against Palestinian nationhood.

Second, he deserves to be tried as a war criminal for the Sabra and Chatilla massacres of 1982.

And third, his government represents the biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East and the greatest block even in the so-called Road Map sponsored by the US, European Union, Russia and the United Nations, but drawn up mainly by Washington......``

238
You didn`t answer the whole question. Do Kashmiri militants have the right to plant bombs in Indian cities in response to the Indian occupation of their country and brutalization of their people?

And what should do we do for the rape of our culture by muslims ??

Funny, how the perversion is perpetuated by the supposedly revealed verses

Farzana...

there you go again... trying to make me believe you prefer forced conversation with others rather than reply to me... some people have sooo little consideration for other people`s needs or feelings... sigh.

hope you didn`t go over my last post with a magnifying glass; but I kind of have my doubts... ;)

khair.... koi baat nahin... choti si yeh duniya hai... pehchaane raaste... kahin to miloge to poochenge haal

(dekho main bhi shairi kar sakti hoon :))

phir milenge!

Farzana:

Ooh yeah..the connect thingie, it is for us wandering souls. You lot get together at Kareem`s and have burra kabab, we also need to replicate it at Lahori Kabab House in DC. Next time we can meet at Badey Mian`s close to the Taj. Oh.. That shair you put, I thought it was a song from Junoon.

Oh accha, btw, I met this lady in Boston who knows you. How your name came up..umm..I guess you guys belong to a small sect of Muslims where everyone knows everyone else??? I forgot the name....but that lady has two daughters, one in the states and the other in Bombay...shit..I`ll ask my friend the name and get back to you.

stuka:
Laziness ke saath premature senility bhi??? Okkk...what about that connect thingie? With or without chutzpah...

---

Two wonderful lessons I learned, both through the `Antakshari` programme on TV ...

1. There is this incident where Lord Ram and Lakshman go looking for Guru Vashisht in the forest. They find his hut and knock on the door. The voice from inside asks, ``Who are you?``
Lord Ram replies, ``That is the reason we have come here, to discover who we are.``

2. I have believed that the Urdu shair by Allama Iqbal is my motto in life:
``Khudee ko kar bulund itna
ke har taqdeer se pehle
khudaa bandey se khud poochhey
bataa teri razaa kya hai``.

Now I was listening to this bhajan and the similarity of thought floored me...
``Hum ko mann ki shakti dena
man vijay karein
doosron ki jai se pehle
khud ko jai karein.``

Farzana:

``by the way, the offer elsewhere...is it only for `wandering chowkies` or also for those who know exactly where they are headed??? ``

Hain? what offer? Remind me...

Doofus:

``It`s late here and I will see you tommorrow. ``

Aren`t you in the states?

stuka:
Get rid of the laziness...you know how caps get me all jittery :) I thought I knew a lot (capitalism being merely a tinka), but I don`t seem to...the reference to Israel did not insinuate the article you posted...tend to avoid reading those or delay reading them because I have to keep up with the other posts... by the way, the offer elsewhere...is it only for `wandering chowkies` or also for those who know exactly where they are headed???

Yeah...they question my nationalism...and a lot else...yawn...see you around whenever...

#241 stuka

Re:doofus

I guess we pick up a few of these whackos every now and then. The funniest thing about this guy is that he thinks that there are some special rules on how and why nations are formed. This ignoramus doesnt even realize that people have only thought of ``nations`` starting in 17th and 18th century europe and then later in other regions. Before that most europeans would have identified as christians or by some regional designation (e.g., prussian or venetian).

And all this while belonging to a country invented in the 1940s which split into two not long ago !!! Hee, hee, and now this clown is spending time explaining to indians that their country doesn`t exist :-)

The whole thing is actually quite funny. But i did learn from all of the interacts including anuradha (heh, good job giving these cool references -- I plan to purchase a copy of alberuni`s work) and alephnull. As for, doofus, yaar, please take your medication (maybe its a bi-polar disorder?) and try to calm down.

stuka #241 ``Doofus ran away...`

heh? Ran away? You should be so lucky. It`s late here and I will see you tommorrow.

Doofus ran away after I reminded him that shedding blood ain`t as much fun as sucking it. After all if there is a war, Daddyji might actually have to go to the front and fight instead of supervising drainage at Heera Mandi while Jehadis do the dirty work.

#238 doofus

Kashmir is considered ``occupied`` only by the Pakistani army and some elite Pakistanis. So your question is quite nonsensical.

BTW, do I have the right to assault you because your existence is an insult to humanity?

Please do answer. Dont try to evade this question. Otherwise, you will be totally exposed as a fraud who makes up silly questions but refuses to answer them !!

Dionysus:

``Do Kashmiri militants have the right to plant bombs in Indian cities in response to the Indian occupation of their country and brutalization of their people? ``

It comes down to escalation. There is no right or wrong. They can do what they want and we will respond as we see fit. Punjabi militants infiltrating into Kashmir have no right to do anything at all, but then if might alone is right, you can do what you want and we can respond at a time and place of our choosing. Your statements (not yours personally) of moral support are hot air and I don`t see any reason to concede moral superiority. I do think Pakistan has the right to avenge Bangladesh but please spare us the moral indignation. After all, we do have the right to fight back, and if it is war without rules, at a time and place of our choosing.

You will see that we have a record of doing that. For the loss of 3 officers and three men (1 MiG, 1 Mirage and a chopper) we took out more than a dozen officers and men (along with 1 of 2 PN`s Atlantique), similarly for Grand Slam we had Bangladesh. For Kashmir, who knows..

stuka #233 ``Oofcourse. And we have the right to respond as we see fit. ``

You didn`t answer the whole question. Do Kashmiri militants have the right to plant bombs in Indian cities in response to the Indian occupation of their country and brutalization of their people?

#225 by FarzanaVersey

I`ll presume you`re addressing me, though you haven`t mentioned any names...

first, you accuse me of having a desperate need to be accepted and legitimised here as a newbie (legitimised? why? do newbies need to be legitimised on chowk?) let me tell you that I am accepted, yea, even loved, in too many places (online and off) to have any such need... speak for yourself ... but I do confess to the dreadful crime of being a newbie (yes m`lord I plead guilty...)

As for valid points, I`ll trouble you to read my posts again (don`t if you`d rather not); and even if there wasn`t anything in them, I`m not interested only in my own posts... I read those of others too... and if they`ve raised strong points I will definitely speak up in support and will be keen on seeing the author`s response to them.

I admit that my question in my last post was a bit below the belt, but that was entirely provoked by your statement :
``This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.``

When you post an article on a public forum, you are giving the reader the right to read it and comment on it as he sees fit... provided the bounds of decency aren`t crossed, of course. It`s not for you to tell him to keep silent. If you don`t like criticism, too bad. Keep the piece to yourself then, instead of sharing it.

And on your last board, all I said was that this was an OK article that deserved neither so much abuse nor so many rahrahs. Did that hurt so much? And surely no one can deny that in the hysteria of excessive abuse by one group and defence by the other, the basic worth (or lack thereof) of the article itself gets forgotten. Was that too close to the truth to be comfortable? And is that why after determinedly ignoring me for so long, you now felt compelled to let loose this barrage of silly insults? :)

Come come, Farzana surely you can do better than that. You`d better not waste any condolences on me, you need them all for yourself. And if at all you feel the need to reply to this post, please use my name; it`s so childish to avoid it. Don`t think you`ll be giving me a high or something by taking my name; I`m used to being called by it all day :).

#225 by FarzanaVersey

``as newbies around they are picking up all the right things to say and even how to address certain chowkies. Good job.``

Rather amusing that you`ve been examining all my posts with so much thoroughness, even while pretending to ignore me...

Farzana:

BTW I JUST REALIZED THE IMPORT OF YOUR ``WHERE WERE YOU`` post. HAHAHA, and I find it absolutely hilarious that people question your nationalism. You are unique I must say.

Waisey, don`t be surprised if u are attacked on that post even. After all you did mention the Iran Iraq war..must be all because of you sympathies with the Muslims etc etc. Iits a bloody joke and a half.



Sorry about the intial caps. I am just to lazy to retype.

Farzana:

this time I have spared the NRIs...but look at the concern for the Israelis,``

I posted the article about Israelis, not to show support for the Yehoods but to show the moral ambuigity of the situation. Innocents are dyiong on both sides. Nneither side is clean. Therefore neither has a moral claim. I could care less if the bearded Yahoods with the long earlocks die. Those bastards are the crux of the problem. They never fought for Iisrael but create problems by demanding settlements.

``the Bangladeshis...``

The example of Bangladesh was taken to show the reverse. Their internal issues are not India`s problem unless India is directly effected with refugees. Faruk`s case of Malaysia is a different example because it was about Indian citizens working there.



``and soon we will find it on the 9/11 board too for the US, and again I will not say anything about NRIs, for that is their adopted home...``

Yes. Concern for those who live in a country is not only desirable, it is expected. And once you voluntarliy accept citizenship of a country then that is where your primary responsibility lies. Anything else is to be a Namak Haraam.

Waisey, thanks for saying I am not a fascist. But I do believe in capitalism though. I thought you knew that?

``do you grant Pakistan the right to stage another Kargil ``

Oofcourse. And we have the right to respond as we see fit.

A bit of a digression, but…

Where were you when the Partition of India happened?
Where were you during the Bangladesh War?
Where were you when the Armenian earthquake took place?
Where were you when Mrs. Indira Gandhi was assassinated?
Where were you when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was executed?
Where were you when the anti-Sikh pogrom took place?
Where were you when Rajiv Gandhi was killed by a suicide bomber?
Where were you when parts of Eastern Europe were being spliced?
Where were you when the Gujarat earthquake happened?
Where were you when the Bombay riots of 1992-93 took place?
Where were you when the Bombay blasts happened soon after?
Where were you when Godhra happened?
Where were you when the Gujarat riots were taking place?
Where were you when Iraq and Iran went to war and stayed that way for eight years?
Where were you when the Gulf War happened?
Where were you during Operation Desert Storm?
Where were you when the US started bombing Afghan civilians to look for a man in a cave?
Where were you when America attacked Iraq to look for weapons that they have not yet found?
Where were you when Kargil happened?
Where were you when the recent blasts happened in Mumbai?

There are so many reasons to know where we were…and these queries are not posed to you. For, even I do not know where I was when most of these disasters/calamities took place…so I do not know where I was when 9/11 happened.

But you are supposed to know. The media in our subcontinent will remind you because they cannot feel left out. People who do not want you to think about other societies would also think this is important enough to recall. I can understand those who live in the US/Canada having vivid memories; or those who have relatives there being worried…but I do not see why that date should become a part of our local psyche. To be concerned about the new world order, terrorism, religion and politics etc is of course important, but to deify a date? But then we also remember when Princess Diana met with that fateful accident.

Therefore, I wonder if those living overseas could check with the Americans and the Brits if they recall any of the incidents I have mentioned. Do they know where they were…do they even know that such places exist?

If we wish to talk about a world where equality must reign, then knowledge of other societies is a great equaliser.

nb (#226):

Being sensitive is not a crime. Re. reacting strongly to opinions, have you read the posts? The nitpicking? I am reacting to that, not people`s beliefs. Yes, you are right about my `past` and where I wrote etc...and I had interviewed the Palestinian ambassador, right, but I also like talking to common folks to get a different perspective. I thought the constant drone of why I met them was a bit off...

Israelis are not the Jews of the Holocaust, therefore the comparison with Gujarat in my opinion is not valid. I am afraid i did not respond to a couple of your earlier posts because I was trying to explain things in a more general fashion, as most of the arguments were pretty much the same.

#197 by SR

You`re welcome.

I`m pretty sure it wouldn`t cost anywhere near Rs 2.5 lacs pa to educate the boy in India. The IITs and RECs ought to be a lot cheaper as they are Govt run. The difficulty would be in getting admission, of course. There`s so much tough competition, and he`d have to be really brilliant. You`ll have to check out the procedure for foreign students. If that fails, there are always the lesser institutions all over the country... (that is to say, they are lesser to the IITs etc, but they`re still pretty good). For instance, in Bangalore there is the MS Ramaiah Institute of Technology, which is excellent (Infosys recruited 73 MSRITians this year); it has a lot of foreign students.

All the best!

# 194

You`re right, there`s no IIT in Bangalore. There`s an REC though, a 6 hrs journey away, in Surathkal; that`s one of the best RECs in the country.

alephnull #212 ``When has ‘right’ ever mattered in the affairs of nations? ``

Morality is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in the affairs of nations. Indeed, even in personal lives `morality` is rather like `father christmas` or `love` or the other fairy stories we invent to comfort ourselves. But we have come a long way from righteous indignation at Jinnah`s `tearing asunder of one people` to this `we think we are a nation therefore we are a nation who cares what anyone else thinks` and this Machiavellian `might is right`


BTW since right doesn`t matter in the affairs of nations, do you grant Pakistan the right to stage another Kargil or Kashmiri millitants to plant bombs in Indian cities? It will be very interesting to hear your response. If you can`t be moral, I hope you can at least be consistent. We shall see.

Re : rsridhar # 199
Sridhar,
I never implied that you said “all muslims” only “most muslims”. What I was pointing out is that you statement is not a fact just your prejudice.

Faruk

Re : rsridhar # 202
Sridhar,
“Hindus in India do not react the way muslims would to the atrocities on hindu minorities in Bangladesh”
How often do you see protests in Bangldesh or for that matter in Pakistan against incidents in India. Most protests are organized by politicians to shore up there base.

“Should India intervene and send troops into Bangladesh because atrocities are being committed on the hindu population in Bangladesh? I do not think so. “

I don’t think so either. But India does innerve, we have throughout the nineties. Most of Bangladesh trade is with India and political pressure usually helps. When that does not work we open our dams and flood their land. This is well documented too.


Faruk

Farzana, why do you react so strongly when your readers disagree on a matter of opinion?For someone who`s been around the traps for a long time,you`re pretty sensitive.
When I lived in Bombay some years ago,you used to write pieces for the Bombay times-or was it Mid-Day, or both?Why shouldn`t you meet the Palestinian ambassador? I for one assumed you were doing some sort of interview with him.
You make no mention of what you think of Israel. You mention the Holocaust, but wouldn`t you expect an event like that to change a community for ever? You have talked of Gujarat changing Indian Muslims. Well, do the maths,2000 versus 6 million...where do people expect the Jews to go? You don`t say anything about that.
To pmishra,alephnull,rsridhar..we don`t need to prove we are a nation, especially to someone who won`t accept any amount of proof. I`d suggest ignoring him. dost-mittar always seems to be what the Jews call a mensch-but an obvious product of the Nehruvian secularism which led to the eventual popularity of the Sangh, trying too hard to keep the other side happy- dionysus thinks even dostmittar is a closet fascist.

I can understand some people`s desperate need to be legitimised and accepted here...as newbies around they are picking up all the right things to say and even how to address certain chowkies. Good job.

As regards valid points...have they looked at their own posts? Besides latching on to what others are saying, have they said anything of consequence? Obviously, it seems like such a good idea to take up the ``do not insult your readers`` stance. Those interactors who have been indulging in muck-raking are aware of their intelligence...pity that you are not confident about yours. That is, if you have in fact put yourself in that category of muck-rakers. Yeah, of course, it is a better place to be in; you get instant visibility. Which is why such people turned up on my last board late in the day and started with discussing rahs by Pakistanis and bahs by Indians for me. And even here, the first comment is about ``lack of hysteria``. It must make them feel so left out, that they pick on stray comments by others...there are veterans here who belong to the FV boards bandwagon, and I realise that those who have nothing original to say would want to join in...

Never mind the `high level` of intellectual discourse that included such precious arguments like visiting the Sea Lounge, meeting Palestinian students (no one has interestingly asked why I met the ambassador), writing about other societies etc...

But, as the writer of this piece, it is my prerogative to moderate and respond as I deem fit. Because I have not resorted to cheap shots. The readers do have a choice of not reading, not interacting.

As for my being ``disappointed that this time there weren`t any personal attacks``...I think insinuations, use of certain nicks, deliberately ignoring something and twisting it ...all constitute personal attacks. I am surprised a woman can come up with with this sort of comment, for as one who has been at the receiving end I truly know what it means. I do not have to say anything more on this subject except that such sad creatures can only get my deep condolences.

---

concerned (#216):
[if you are referring to nris and india, then are we to assume that you are a palestinian living in india?]
No, this time I have spared the NRIs...but look at the concern for the Israelis, the Bangladeshis...and soon we will find it on the 9/11 board too for the US, and again I will not say anything about NRIs, for that is their adopted home... I can be very reasonable at times.

satire (#220):
If you knew what your name meant, then you would have known what I meant...never mind.

Farzana

#214 by FarzanaVersey

``This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.``

Please don`t try to insult your readers. If you don`t have anything to say in answer to the valid points so many people have raised, it`s possible for you also to keep quiet, you know.

(you wouldn`t by any chance be disappointed that this time there weren`t any personal attacks on you? ;))

#221 stuka


The document written by Henry Kissinger stands as a monstrous indictment of his ego, fundamental inhumanity, hubris and ugly character. It`s primary purpose is a kind of crude settling of scores with Secretary Rogers and even with Nixon. This is accompanied by a kind of crude and boastful discourse on ``national interest`` and ``world order``.

More than a million bengalis were killed in 1971; you will find NO mention of it in his document. The only mention of death or killing is the following:

[quote]
-probably without the excesses of brutality, including public bayoneting, in which the Indian-trained guerrillas, the Mukti Bahini, engaged when they in turn terrorized Dacca.
[end-quote]

What can I say? More than a million bengalis were killed by the Pakistanis? But for the shameless and self-serving, the main problem was the excesses of the Mukti Bahini!

Aleph Null:

``We see an eerie echo of this now in the Pakistanis who attempt to use `moral` and `human rights` arguments in a vain attempt to gain disproportionate leverage against India. ``

It is vain only inasmuch as the environment is conducive to India at the moment. I would not grudge them for attempting to use it as we have in the past and sometimes do so now.

Aleph Null:

Sorry, I posted on the wrong board. Here is the link..

http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/chaps/kiss_71.htm

It is a long read but an excellent one. I have posted some remarks on the other board.

Re: #214 by Farzana Versey,

[No insult taken, since I do not know who you are talking about! Am terrible at remembering names;) ]

Sure, ofcourse. Just be careful taking the ignorance plea. Would affect your credibility as a writer.


Satire

#218 stuka

{{Excellent statement by Henry Kissinger: Thanks to His Excellency for providing the link.}}

Where? HE hasn`t shown up on this thread.

{{Kissinger correctly views the fallacy of Nehruvian ``moral`` foreign policy.}}

The case has been made that Nehru`s `moral` foreign policy was a carefully constructed facade; that he was a supreme realist in international affairs; and that the `fallacy` if any was of those Indians who came after him who actually bought into any of the moralising rhetoric.

{{We hardly noticed that this was precisely the policy by which a weak nation seeks influence out of proportion to its strength}}

We see an eerie echo of this now in the Pakistanis who attempt to use `moral` and `human rights` arguments in a vain attempt to gain disproportionate leverage against India.

Excellent statement by Henry Kissinger: Thanks to His Excellency for providing the link. Kissinger correctly views the fallacy of Nehruvian ``moral`` foreign policy.

``In the 1950s and 1960s, America, oblivious to these new countries` absorption with themselves, sought to fit them into its own preconceptions. We took at face value Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru`s claim to be neutral moral arbiter of world affairs. We hardly noticed that this was precisely the policy by which a weak nation seeks influence out of proportion to its strength, or that India rarely matched its international pretensions with a willingness to assume risks, except on the sub-Continent where it saw itself destined for preeminence.``

#209 Doofus


Doofus, the great thinker writes (but does he really exist?? Where is the proof?)

[quote]
Only a fool would draw a comparison between America and India. America is the child of England.
[end-quote]

Really? I guess you have added ignorant babbling about the US to your list of accomplishments. I suggest you read the speeches and writings of Washington, Jefferson and Adams to understand their relationship to Europe. Nothing about it suggests a deep relationship to England. On the contrary, it suggests a general relationship to forces of the ``Enligtenment`` and ``Rationalism`` and deep disgust with many 17th and 18th century european traditions. Ben Franklin actually suggested at one point the use of Hebrew as the national language to separate the US from what he viewed as ugly european traditions.

Finally, we get the nub of the matter:

[quote]
The multi-racial America of today with it`s masses of computer coolies is a very recent thing.
[end-quote]

Multi-racial america is a recent thing? Hmmm, I wonder what Booker T. Washington or Frederick Douglas would have made of that a 100 years ago. Of course, the real issue is to bring in the irrelevant ``code coolies`` image into the discussion.

Well, I am happy to be a productive code coolie providing sustenance to my family. It is hell of a lot better than being a stupid and murderous suicide bomber, just to give an example.

#214:

[...And those objecting to my concern for some far-away land are, ironically, doing so for other far-away lands...]

if you are referring to nris and india, then are we to assume that you are a palestinian living in india?

Dionysus #213

{{However, the `vast majority` do not have the right to `think` for others and to invade the countries of or to use brutal methods to suppress those who do not `think` like them.}}

When has ‘right’ ever mattered in the affairs of nations? Who defines it anyway? Long-term viability is all that counts. If the majority of the population endorses the use of brutal methods, brutal methods will be used where deemed necessary. Committed armed terrorists cannot be fought with kid gloves – there is generally no course but to liquidate them. My main concerns are that the use of brutal methods be specifically cleared by democratic leaders ultimately accountable to the public that elected them; that they ensure that these methods are used judiciously and not indiscriminately; that their use is periodically reviewed for continued appropriateness and effectiveness.

{{The only thing that has kept India in its present form is the most brutal violence - in East Punjab, in Indian Occupied Kashmir, in Assam and in other places.}}

The case of ‘East Punjab’ is a good one since the cycle has run its course there. Whatever other roots the Punjab insurgency might have had in real and imaginary historical grievances, it was exacerbated by unwarranted central interference in state politics and denial of democratic rights. Yet even at its height the armed insurgency did not have majority support through Punjab or even among Sikhs, though the majority might have been too cowed by insurgent terror to make their feelings known. The strategy followed by the Indian government was to annihilate armed insurgents and then invite everyone else to participate in fair and open democratic politics. It seems to have worked. Clearly there were factors beyond brutal violence that made Punjab’s remaining in India viable – whether it was a general feeling of connectedness with the rest of India, or the economic opportunities that India provides, or the foretaste that the insurgency provided to what life in a theocratic state might be like, or merely an understanding of the futility of defining identity in sharp and monolithic terms.

There is no reason why the same strategy should not work in Jammu and Kashmir – despite determined opposition from the Pakistani ruling establishment - though the cycle may take some more time to complete.

“The very reason that brought us to India is responsible for the cutting short of the visit: Terror.” – Israeli deputy PM, Yosef Lapid.

Well…everyone has contributed more than their bit to the discussion.

This board will soon be out…wish the eent ka jawaab had been patthar se instead of dhool. If people do not have anything to say in response, it is possible to keep quiet.

I could have given some smart-alecky riposte to Avkrishna (#10) when he asked, “Did
Israel invaded Palestine and occupy all that territory? Why wait for 20 more years to occupy the other parts then?” These are recorded facts, but I assumed the query was sincere and I had no reply. All I am aware of is that the settlements came up in a slow and well-planned manner.

And those objecting to my concern for some far-away land are, ironically, doing so for other far-away lands. The world really is a small place. And stuka is not a fascist...in fact he does not believe in `isms`, not even capitalism. Not all Republicans are capitalists :)

Yogiraj (#154):
Since you came in late, you probably thought it fit to read only the posts…I suggest you take a look at the article too. I am tired of reiterating the same thing. If you want to work it through…it will.

Satire (#173):

[I was refering to a more historic thug circa 7th century AD. His tactics weren`t to different from Mr. Sharon`s. No insult intended, simply meant in a polarized society
someone who is a thug to one is a hero to another.]

No insult taken, since I do not know who you are talking about! Am terrible at remembering names;)

Sigalph (#143):
If you haven’t changed your mind in these past few hours, then thanks…and yes, sometimes this place reminds me of, as they might say in Bengali, amar saisaber din ratri :)

Alephnull #211

At last a well-argued and coherent response. After initally coming out all guns blazing, rsridhar is now hiding under his sofa. Stuka goes into a childish giggling fit at the slightest provocation and, fool that he is, convinces himself that he`s winning an argument.

``In the end, it is enough for a group of people to constitute a nation that the vast majority of them think they do``

If the vast majority think they are a nation then good for them. I don`t have a problem with them making choices for themselves based on what they `think`. However, the `vast majority` do not have the right to `think` for others and to invade the countries of or to use brutal methods to suppress those who do not `think` like them. And this is where your argument for India falls flat on its face. The only thing that has kept India in its present form is the most brutal violence - in East Punjab, in Indian Occupied Kashmir, in Assam and in other places.

rsridhar:
``The political fall out of all this (increased migration to India, change in demography etc) is of course India`s problem. Should India intervene and send troops into Bangladesh because atrocities are being committed on the hindu population in Bangladesh? I do not think so. ``
Do you realise that this was precisely the reason why India intervened in East Pakistan? But I agree that India has no right to intervene in BD`s domestic problem.

Arguing whether India was historically a nation misses the point. The whole nation-state system is historically fairly recent.

What is indisputable is that India has been a coherent civilization for a very long time, two millennia at least, and that the geographical area between the Himalayas and the sea that served as this civilization’s home base has been recognized as such by its inhabitants for quite as long and referred to by names such as Bharatvarsha or the much rarer Jambudvipa.

At various times in the last 2500 years large portions of the land have been united under a single ruler or system of rule. At other times the land of India has been politically fragmented. Indian civilizational coherence has persisted through this period and arguably gotten stronger. The civilization is known for its property of digesting and assimilating outside influences into its whole.

Political fragmentation of the territory and the development of local nationalities/subnationalities was inevitable in an epoch when long-range travel was difficult and dangerous. Modern travel and mass communications facilitate the reverse process of integration, particularly when it has the subtle encouragement of the unified political entity that governs the territory.

In the end, it is enough for a group of people to constitute a nation that the vast majority of them think they do. Independent India seems to have had considerable success in inculcating that feeling in the vast majority of its citizens.

stuka #206 ``I see. And America is not a nation either? Right? ``

Only a fool would draw a comparison between America and India. America is the child of England. It inherited England`s language, culture, science, philosophy, literature, ethos, values, laws and a very healthy dose of English blood. It later on took in Western European immigrants like the Germans but they were totally assimilated into America`s English-derived culture and adopted the American identity. The multi-racial America of today with it`s masses of computer coolies is a very recent thing. Will it succeed? That remains very much to be seen, but things aren`t looking too good.

``#197 by SR on September 11, 2003 7:26am PT
anuradha, Farzana, Faruk, harimau

Thank you very much for your feedback. Gives a good starting point. This is a good kid and a smart one. Engineering is just what the kid wants to do and the father, a nice man who is a tour guide, does not have the wherewithall to cough up Rs. 2.5 lakh annually so he needs some help. It occurred to me that there must be better (and perhaps even cheaper) options in India. Your comments have helped a lot. Thanks again.

...SR ``

Sirjee,

Do not go and start shedding money.

We do have a special written and unwritten contracts with Nepal, Bhutan, Iran, Iraq and Afganistan.

Nepal is the easiest. They have rights to be, live and enjoy every single right as an Indian.

Do not shed 2.5 lacs.

If the kid is good, all that is required is passing of entrance exam with flying colours. There are n # of them. Choose the right ones. If the kid can`t pass. Well even 25 lacs will not do.


Yogiraj Patil

stuka#27, dionysus#201, others:
Why not carry on this discussion on a single board? I suggest that the hamdani board is more appropirate for this. Thanks.

Dionysus:

``Please share your deep and secret knowledge with us benighted lesser mortals. ``

Wasiey, I am quite glad that you have realized your true Auqat!! :)

Dumbasus:

``Not race, not language, not history, not identity, not culture, not blood``

I see. And America is not a nation either? Right?

It is a common set of values and objectives along with a dominant religio-cultural identity that goes towards forming a nation.

So come you did not address the issue of Bharat? Too uncomfortable a word for you since it evokes a sense of nationalism in ancient Indian history? Tthereby throwing your Pakistan Studies curriculum where it belongs? In the gutter? HAHA!!

re:#191 by Faruk
I was talking about the Bangladesh problem in a religious sense. Hindus in India do not react the way muslims would to the atrocities on hindu minorities in Bangladesh. Such atrocities are well documented and real and are due to religious hatred. The political fall out of all this (increased migration to India, change in demography etc) is of course India`s problem. Should India intervene and send troops into Bangladesh because atrocities are being committed on the hindu population in Bangladesh? I do not think so.
Sridhar

re:#198 by stuka
Palestenians (with help of Hamas and other terrorist organizations) are waging their struggle in a way that makes ``violent backlash`` by Israelis inevitable. So, what is the purpose of killing innocent Israelis in the first place? Palestenians are nowhere near achieving their objective than they were say in the 60s when they started the ``violent struggle``.
Farzana Bibi asked me in a post if there was anyother way possible. Of course there is a way.
For many decades now, Dalai Lama and his followers have been peacefully protesting against the brutal occupation and atrocites perpetrated by Chinese upon the Tibetan nation and its people. Their`s is a just cause too but the way they are protesting is so different. Perhaps, they too are nowhere near realising their dream of a seperate homeland but they have world`s respect. Dalai Lama is a much respected figure all over the world. Yasser Arafat is a terrorist in the eyes of all but the muslim population. I will never have sympathies for the suicide bombers, however just their cause may be.
Sridhar

re:#200 by dionysus
I do not intend to interact with morons like you. Go back to rocking on the floor back and forth in front of your Holy Qoran. You better memorise your verses well. I hear Mullah Omar is on an inspection tour of the madrassa you are in and will be asking some tough questions. Read the chapters on ``Jihad`` and ``how to kill kafirs``. That will help you pass the exams.
Sridhar

#201 Doofus

You know I agree with you. India isn`t really a country at all !! It is just a bunch of hindu beggars who have grabbed some land. The sooner the ISI kills all of them off, the better off we will all be.

Good work ! Why not move on and work on some other problems suitable for your genius? Maybe the Unified Field Theory? Or Quantum Cryptography? I am sure you will be able make similar astounding progress in those arenas. I can give you pointers to the relevant journals. Don`t waste your time on retards like us.

#187

Dear rsridhar,
First a fevered fit and now a very nasty bout of verbal diarrhea. You not feeling too well, buddy?

Take some medication, tuck into bed and get some rest. When you`re feeling better, come back here and explain to us how the whole of the subcontinent, with it`s HUGE number of distinct races with absolutely nothing in common with each other, is a nation called `India`.

Thanks and get well soon.

stuka #195 ``The fact that there exists a broader definition of nationhood then what is in your benighted mind. ``

Oh yeah? Not race, not language, not history, not identity, not culture, not blood...so what exactly is this mysterious `broader definition`` of nationhood? Please share your deep and secret knowledge with us benighted lesser mortals.


``BTW, it is a pleasure to be called a fuckwit by a moron like you``

I`m glad you liked the name, you certainly earned it! :)

re:#189 by Faruk
Dear Sir,
I said ``most muslims`` and not ``all muslims``.
No, i did not use a scientific opinion poll but then, neither did you. We go only by impressions. Impressions formed from interacting with a community over many years in India (i lived in Delhi most of my life but also spent fair amount of time in Bombay, Madras) must mean something.
Sridhar