Shalom or Salaam

shalom/Namaste

International Conference of Genocidal Maniacs and Religious Nuts.

Venue: New Delhi

Invitation: All anti-Muslims and anti-Humans who beleive in injustice and cruelty are chordially invited.

This article does not mention what strategic value India can gain from the Palestenians.

The story of the Palestenians is very sad, along with that of the Hutus, Tutsis, Cambodians and every other displaced group. So what?

More than 50 years have passed by. The Ppalestenians could easily have settled down in various Arab countries but they choose to live in refugee camps. Approximately 50 years ago, Punjabis from West Pakistan too were living in squalid refugee camps, for no fault of their own. But, they made it. There are plenty of tragedies in history.

As a third world country, we need to look after our own interests and solve our own problems. Not worry about those who have a higher standard of living then quite a few of our own people.

In fact, he can even announce, “We control America”.

I don`t know what the author had in mind at the time of making this statement? However, an interesting thought comes to one`s mind if one were to ``follow the money.``

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to use the word ``own`` rather than ``control.``

The US Federal Reserve that ``owns`` the US ``money`` is a privately held entity. A cartel of International private banks ``owns`` the US Fed. The names of the majority of the stockholders of the US Fed are unusually Semetic. The top ten of those stockholders are the following:


1) Rothschild Bank of London,
2) Warburg Bank of Hamburg,
3) Rothschild Bank of Berlin,
4) Lehman Brothers of New York,
5) Lazard Brothers of Paris,
6) Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York,
7) Israel Moses Seif Banks,
8) Goldman Sachs of Italy,
9) Chase Manhattan Bank of New York,
10) Warburg Bank of Amsterdam.

Remarkable...

...SR

Quite a nicely packaged re-hashing of the victimhood saga of Palestinians that blames the Israelis and Americans. Clearly ignored are the following facts:

1. It was the ARABs, not the Jews, who rejected the 1948 Partition plan and attacked to wipe out Israel.

2. After 50+ and 3 generations years as refugees, no Arab country (except Jordan) has given citizenship rights to their `bretheren` Palestinians.

3. For every Deir Yassin, there was Kfir Shamona i.e. wartime atrocity in 1948 was not one sided

4. The only Middle Eastern country(apart from Jordan) where a Palestinian Arab can vote, become a judge, and elect his own choice of member of parliament is Israel.

5. Far more Palestinians have been killed by Syria and Jordan than by Israel.

6. Yasir Arafat, the `non-terrorist` was in charge when his stromtroopers massacared the entire Lebanese village of Damour during peacetime. Ditto for Achille LAuro. Ditto for Munich. Ditto for Entebbe. And so on.

7. India and Israel are democracies, very imperfect but democracies still, who face not only the same kind of shadowy enemy but often these days the SAME shadowy enemy. Both LeT and Islamic Jihad, among others, draw sustenance from al-Qaeda`s network.

And after all this, Indians are still expected to be nice to a thug and nasty to the prime minister of the only democracy in the Middle East? Obviously Brajesh Mishra doesn`t quite think so. Hopefully neither does his boss.

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Farzana

``````Under the UN resolution of 1947 Palestine was to be divided into Arab and Jewish states, with Israel being granted 57 per cent of the total land when that under their possession did not exceed six per cent, and they constituted only a third of the population. The Palestinians rejected the partition plan. But within six months, 78 per cent of the land had come under the Israelis, exceeding the UN stipulation, dispossessing its inhabitants and replacing them with Jews from Europe and other parts of the world. This is the only country created by the UN defying the UN. In 1967, the West Bank and Gaza were taken over and the inhabitants were under an oppressive military rule. They were treated as refugees ````


Can you explain how this might have been possible? Did Israel invaded Palestine and occupy all that territory ? Why wait for 20 more years to occupy the other parts then?

Thanks,
-V

we must rolled red carpet for sheron.if we invite supperterrorist like mussaraf who had blood in hand of indians and father of terrorist fazrul rehman then what problem with sheron.his country is gr8 ally of us.isrial is gr8 arm supplier of india.i had to advise indian muslim to think for banifit of country not for so called remote ummah(i already know this advise in knock on dumb ears) because our muslim bro more think of patastinin muslim then indian kashmiri pandits.even some of them already get a pain for supplied indian arm may be use againts pakistani bro.but everyone must know wht chanakya said :nothing in constant in international politices only national intrest is constant.and we can get some good from isrial.what we can get from poor hungry and terrorist palastine.anyone must think what difference between isrial and palastine at 1947.even jews had problame.their community wipe out by hitler and lot of tragedies they got.but they had hardworking and gut to do miracle and they do it.but this palastinies do nothing except create more problames for new born jews state.they get this from Quran which told never take jews and christian and jews as friends.and why we think palastine is uniqe problame.see allaround the world u cant find single country where muslims live peacefully with other religion.even if they live in muslim majority states they kill eachohters.and they get one uniqe vertu is that for every shortcoming of their blame others.and always live in dreamland of conspircy theories.

The Ppalestenians could easily have settled down in various Arab countries but they choose to live in refugee camps.

First you kick someone out of his house, then after a while start blaming the victim himself for not finding another home and choosing to live in refugee camps; this confounding heartlessness can only stem from hatred and disdain for -- I`m guessing -- anything Islamic.

A made it. B didn`t make it. Therefore it is all B`s fault, and no one else should be held responsible for it. This syllogism, shows up in countless arguments ranging from the state of Civil Rights to international relations. This enunciation of social Darwinism -- which is the hallmark of right wing politics almost worldwide -- finds its most ardent advocates among the newly priviledged and enriched who hold the fallacious view, that if they made it, everyone can. With this conceited view -- drawing general universal conclusions from your own experience -- comes a disdain and contempt for the poor and the oppressed, and wide-eyed admiration for raw power, even cruelty, as a sign of victory in a Darwinian contest. It is no wonder then, that the strident nationalists of BJP, VHP and RSS can barely hide their admiration for Hitler -- or Ariel Sharon. Sharon gets the added kudos because he fights a common enemy -- Islam. Thinking of it as ``Islam``, ``Islamic Fascism``, ``Terrorism``, or some other ponderous abstraction leaves one conveniently unburdened with -- god forbid -- empathy for those dozens of innocent men, women, and children that have been butchered through his orders, as a soldier, and then, as a politician.

Coming back to the Palestinians...
Those Palestinians who CAN go and settle somewhere else, have done so. A recent poll showed that an overwhelming majority of the Palestinian diaspora is not looking to come back. Those 3 million living in refugee camps don`t really have a choice. You can sermonize all you want that this or that country should take them, but you really have no right to do that unless you offer YOUR country as home.

re: this article
By and large a non-controversial article but the author has skirted a lot of issues.

I am not going to join this debate if Palestinians` struggle is right or wrong. Each of us has his/her own version. But what is terribly wrong is the way it is being waged. Much of the muslim world sees Yasser Arafat as a hero. I see him as a terrorist. He is a scoundrel if you ask me. He is seeing an entire generation of young Palestinians blow themselves up. He is blessing these martyrs and the world is silently watching with horror.
It is not as if Arafat had no choice. Early on in his career, he had a clear choice. He could have started his movement in a non-voilent fashion or he could have chosen violence. In choosing the former, he had the precedence of Mahatma Gandhi in front of him. Gandhi had liberated an entire nation by peaceful means. His techniques are well known and were followed by people like Martin Luther King Jr. So, Arafat could have chosen a non-violent means of struggle. But he chose violence.

There is something in Islam that attracts all young revolutionaries (as Arafat was when he started his career) towards violence. It probably has to do with the fact that all their role models, Salhaddin downwards, have led violent protests. Muslims cannot think of anything like a peaceful form of protests. Those who have tried such protests in Kashmir in the past have been labelled unislamic.
So, due to their religion and historical precedents, muslims seem to naturally gravitate towards violence. So did Yasser Arafat. Now, violence is usually met with violence. There is no other way. And, if the adversary is as powerful as Israel, then it was inevitable that Palestenians would suffer a great deal.
So, when the author says
``Its people constitute the highest number of graduates and professionals in the region and their literacy rate exceeds 96 per cent. This did not happen overnight.``
I do not know whether to praise them or condemn them. Of what use is such an education if it is not used in building a society but helps in destroying it. What are these highly educated Palestenians upto? Why are they not questioning their leader? Why do they not condemn the acts of suicide bombers? Suddenly we find that over such matters, religion takes precedence. This is Jehad, these educated men and women are told. That shuts them up. Some of them willingly voulnteer to become a suicide bomber. This is replicated all over the world. The destroyers of Twin Towers in New York were highly educated muslims. The perpetrators of bomb blasts in Bombay recently were educated graduates. Am i missing something here? It is crystal clear what we are dealing with. It is not education, stupid. It is all about religion and ideology.

As i said, the other choice would have been to keep protesting peacefully and meanwhile build a society. Build schools, colleges, give economic opportunities to Palestenians even while making it known to the world what they felt about Israeli occupation. World would have perceived Palestenians in a different light if their struggle had been peaceful. Palestenian leaders cannot complain of atrocities by Israelis if their young men strap themsleves with bombs and kill innocent civilians while killing themselves.
There is another thing that is bothering me. It is the way muslims in India are reacting to Sharon`s visit. Israel has been helping India on security and military matters. It is well known today how Israelis helped IAF fit Laser Guided Bombs onto the Mirages that helped tilt the tide of Kargil war. They are helping in training Indians fight against terrorists and help in the security of India. So, my question is why are some people in India complaining? And, why most of those complaining are muslims? For eg, what is bothering this idiot Imam Bukhari? Why does he say that Sharon`s visit will fuel terrorism? Whose side is he anyway? India`s or Pakistan`s? How long is India going to tolerate such A$$HOLES.

It is tragic that muslims in India yearn for secularism even while flouting every norms of secular behaviou at every opportunity. A religious muslim leader has no business to take a political stand. Growing relationship between India and Israel has a lot to do with fighting terroirsm and stabilising the region and is not anti-Islam unless some bright guys out there are saying Islam and terrorism are the same. Let educated muslims including this author think over these matters.
Sridhar

#1 by Urstruly
//..Invitation: All anti-Muslims and anti-Humans who beleive in injustice and cruelty are chordially invited...//

Sounds like a party. But we are missing some of the very deserving individuals who must be invited to this party for it to be truly representative of all anti-muslim anti-human mass murderers.

1. The person(s) who commited anti-muslim anti-human mass murder of 3 million Bangladeshis.

2. The person(s) responsible for mass graves they have uncovered Iraq recently - the victims are all muslims.

3. The ``students`` who butchered muslims (shias) in Afganistan when they took over the contry a few years ago.

The list goes on....

sigalph235:

...welcome back:)

...since you are so well informed can you help guide me to an official and final map of state of israel?

..t

rsridhar

...since you have such varied interests, opinion and time...(judging by your interactions)...why don`t you ever pen an article or two here?


...t

MNIPhirsay:

``First you kick someone out of his house, then after a while start blaming the victim himself for not finding another home and choosing to live in refugee camps;``

We did not kick anyone out. ``We`` as in refugees from West Punjab were kicked out.

``this confounding heartlessness can only stem from hatred and disdain for -- I`m guessing -- anything Islamic. ``
Nope. This heartlessness comes for all whiners who cannot do anything to stand on their feet..oh yeah..UNLIKE US!!!

``finds its most ardent advocates among the newly priviledged and enriched who hold the fallacious view, that if they made it, everyone can. With this conceited view -- drawing general universal conclusions from your own experience --``

Damn right we are newly privileged and proud of it. Victims of Indian partition were rotting in refugee camps around the same time as Arabs. What we have made with our lives is thanks to our own grit. No sops, no oil, just forward thinking, putting the past behind us and working. And why should we not draw conclusions that hard work and looking ahead pay off?

The point is we don`t need to sympathize with Palestenains or any other unfortunates. We got plenty of our own to worry about.

Oh yeah, not that I see too many Muslims crying about the misfortunes of Sri Lankan Tamils or Tutsis...so..put your money where your mouth is or leave the hypocritical crocodile tears at home.

MNIPhirsay:

``You can sermonize all you want that this or that country should take them, but you really have no right to do that unless you offer YOUR country as home. ``

Yeah? Assuming you are Pakistani, maybe you can start by offering a HOME to those Pakistanis still stranded in Bangladesh.

Temporal:

You have asked the question before and it is an unfair one. Israel accepted a ``full and final`` frontier in 1948. It was not accepted by the Arabs who attacked.

The ``occupied territories`` are exactly that. Nobody is saying they are part of Israel, not even the Israelis. But, if Hamas and IJ refuse to even accept the existence of Israel, why should the Israelis play nice?

Let Hamas and IJ accpet the nation of Israel with defined borders. Then one can call Israelis bad guys. Till then they are in the same Hamam..naked.

I have nothing for or against ordinary Palestenians. I don`t give a rat`s arse about their religion. If they were the stronger party and could provide military knowhow and technology transfer, I would be totally advocating relations with them. My loyalty is to Indian interests, not to some percieved victim group regardless of religion.

If MNIPhirsay and his ilk think I am Anti Islamic, they can go ahead. I or India for that matter does not owe them an explanation.

stuka

...the plight of partition refugees cannot be fairly compared to the ongoing holocaust of the palestinians...in no small measure compounded by their dumb leadership...but then both of us are digressing;)

..t

PS:

...Israel accepted a UN resolution...it was not full and final frontier!..there is a difference

Temporal:

.``..the plight of partition refugees cannot be fairly compared to the ongoing holocaust of the palestinians``

True. Not to what is ongoing now. BUT conditions in 1947 India-Pak and 1948 Middle east were strikingly similar.

Anyway, I don`t think anyone can make the case that it is only Palestenians who are suffering. So I don`t know why we are supposed to worry about them and not others? Besides, I was reading number of Palestenian dead in the entire intifada is less then desis who die in insurgency ops in India. We don`t call that a holocaust so why do the Palestenians get that term?

stuka

..apologies!...temporary lapse in judgement...holocaust is copyrighted (and hijacked) by one semite group!

Yeah? Assuming you are Pakistani, maybe you can start by offering a HOME to those Pakistanis still stranded in Bangladesh.

And what makes you think I am against offering stranded Biharis a home in Pakistan? It is quite treacherous of Pakistan to use their support in 1971 -- even though they were morally wrong in supporting the Pakistan Army -- and then leave them languishing in refugee camps. I`ve said this many many times. That`s out of the way.

Damn right we are newly privileged and proud of it. Victims of Indian partition were rotting in refugee camps around the same time as Arabs. What we have made with our lives is thanks to our own grit. No sops, no oil, just forward thinking, putting the past behind us and working. And why should we not draw conclusions that hard work and looking ahead pay off?

Because hard work and looking ahead is sometimes not enough. Sometimes a compassionate helping hand is needed as well. I am sure many Punjabis got that as well from a kind soul among the locals. Those stories were never told in the revisionist tales of a determined march to prosperity that fuel your racial pride. (Not unlike revisionist tales of brave Zionist pioneers settling Columbus-like on unpopulated land;or Muslim revisionist bakvaas about how Mohammad Bin Qasim liberated people from Raja Dahir.) That`s fine. The first sign of a nau-daulatiya is that he forgets who helped him, and where.

The point is we don`t need to sympathize with Palestenains or any other unfortunates. We got plenty of our own to worry about.

Last time I checked, sympathy did not cost anything; time or money. And even if it did, you clearly are spending more time telling people that you don`t have time sympathizing for Palestinians.

Oh yeah, not that I see too many Muslims crying about the misfortunes of Sri Lankan Tamils or Tutsis...so..put your money where your mouth is or leave the hypocritical crocodile tears at home.

Ahhh...so it IS about Muslims. Well, fine. Muslims can be accused of indifference towards traditionally non-Muslim problems. This is something I have consistently complained about on many occasions. But how many Muslims do you see arguing on bboards that we don`t need to sympathize with Tamils, or Tutsis, or loudly wondering -- like you are about Palestinians -- why Tutsis are even there, and why they don`t migrate somewhere else. If apathy was all you had for the Palestinians, it`d be forgiveable. You seem to harbor an animus against them. And then you claim that you are not anti-Islam. Daniel Pipes also claims that. Kisi aur ko che banaao yaar.

#8 Saminshah:

Ditto.

If all things were tobe constant and except if Mr Sharon`s name was `Muhammad this or Muhammad that`, then the psuedo-sickular crowd would have no problem.

After all, they didn`t have any problem with the likes of Idi Amin, who under world guestimate killed over 600,000 of his own people and then some. But, nah, since he was a `pious` muslim he gets a lavish break in Jeddah where he died a natural death at age 81 or so.

Not a squeak from p-sick crowd.

Gime a break!

The Zionist strategy is to occupy Palestinian land and force people to leave, either by killing them or by deporting them. That happened in 1948, in 1967, and the Israeli settlements inside Gaza and the West Bank are evidence of this. Look at this map of Gaza. What are the Israeli settlements doing here? Why? Does this help the security of populated areas? It’s crazy.

It’s not crazy. The settlers are crazy. But Sharon is not crazy. This is a strategic Zionist movement. They get immigrants to come here, with money, with support, they promise them prosperity, the life of honey… They are like a nail in the wood. The nail in the wood will not withdraw by itself. You cannot talk to the nail: “Just, please, get out.”

Ismail Abu Shanab

click for the full interview

Ismail

re:#13 by temporal
Out of 21 interacts so far, 5 are from you. And you are complaining that i have time and varied interests! What is your problem? That i have time (which is not true but i am on a vacation right now) or i have varied interests (there is nothing wrong in that i hope)?
I am certainly not interested in writing an article. I prefer to interact. Any problems there?
Sridhar

rsridhar

yaar aap bura maan ga`aye!...

...all i was attempting to do was to encourage you to write here...it goes without saying you can interact as much as you want...but since you can write you should...not many can...and almost anyone can interact...no offence:)

..t

Hari :
Why don`t you make up your mind whom you`re railing against: the ``p-sick crowd``,the House of Saud, or Idi Amin? Or are you getting upset at the ``p-sick crowd`` for sparing sympathy for people who happen to be -- nominally at least -- Idi Amin`s co-religionists?

You have to have some gall to bring up Idi Amin, because last time his name was mentioned on Chowk was when Naqshbandi made the mistake of posting something of a defense for that butcher. Predictably, a whack-Naqshbandi-fest ensued. The participants were the same p-sick ppl you are ranting about.

http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?channel=&tid=00002820&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

Vaisay I have always understood ``pseudo-secular`` to just mean ``secular``. People who use the pseudo prefix just don`t want to admit that they`re against secularism; and they aren`t -- as long as they don`t have to worry about inconveniences like minority rights, and the power of the majority is not trammelled.

Dear Farzana:
As someone who was also driven out of the land that belonged to his ancestors for millenia, I fully feel the pain and suffering of the Palestinians. And I also see how the zionists keep adding to their settlements while talking of roadmaps. You are also right in saying that the Palestinian struggle is not an Islamic struggle and some of its most prominent leaders are christians, although it has increasingly assumed religious overtones with the constant use of the terms jihad and Allahu Akbar by the suicide bombers.

But international diplomacy has to be conducted according to pragmatic considerations. India has every right to define its relationship with Israel in terms of its own interests. I wish however that they had not invited the man who is considered a murderer not only by the Arabs but by the human right activists everywhere in the world.

temporal,

.......... et tu ? .........i look at israel as a becon of civilization in that wasteland of ignorance, barbarism and sheer supidity............ i believe israel is the seed, the catalyst, that will change the destiny of smelly bedouins mired in the quagmire of the seventh century ......... the state of israel has contributed more to the good of humanity in the last fifty years than all the arabs combined in the last five hundred years ........... so what good is another worthless arab/muslim state?............ look at the map and see what we have contibuted from morocco to the phillipines except murder and mayhem ?.............

......israel zindabad !


p.s. ever been to israel?

Granted Ariel Sharon is not a nice guy. He happens to be the democratically elected Prime Minister of Israel, a nation surrounded by others with leaders at least as ruthless as Sharon and with a good deal more blood on their hands. To my knowledge, neither Sharon nor Israel have any quarrel with India or with any section of the Indian population - including Indian Muslims. It is clear that our nations share common enemies and have much to profit from one another. Why therefore must we have a quarrel with them?

The knee-jerk reaction from some loudmouth Indian Muslims like Imam Bukhari is unjustifiable if expected. More pathetic is the me-too-ing of those like PureFool Bidwai who want to be more loyal to an ‘Arab’ cause than Arabs themselves. It would be interesting to see if any of these people protested anywhere near as vociferously when the present government hosted Pervez Musharraf, the Butcher of Gilgit Shias, architect of Kargil, current dictator of Pakistan, and a man ultimately responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of Indian, including at least a proportionate number of Muslims.

As for advocacy of Palestinian causes, it makes sense for Indians to look out first for their own citizens displaced by terror or civil strife or natural disasters, in whichever part of their country. All others can wait.

good article farzana.,

as much as the secularists and modernists think of palestine as not a jihad it IS a jihad--a jihad of liberation for an occupied land. the WHOLE of ``israel`` is actually palestine and it is all the property of the muslims...
this jihad will never end; the intifada is seriously affecting israel and that is why these pathetic so called `peace plans` are being pushed.

**sigalph--who the f*** gave the bloody british (and french) to carve up the land of palestine and give it to the jews in the first place?

it is only a matter of time before israel is made to eat dirt. the blood of the millions of palestinians who have been killed and maimed will not go to waste.

sharon is a pig.

rsridhar,

How long have you been on chowk? How did that joke go: About asking who was sita to ram...after watching ramayana!

Lemme lay it out fo ya kid. The author of this article and chowk`s resident poet-warrior are a mutual admiration society. Drawn to each other. Peas in a pod. Thick as fleas. Savvy?!!

Offend her...and the poet`s pen turns to sword! swiiisshhhh!

what happened to the jews all over europe during the insanity of Hitler, is known as sho`ah and holocaust. i cannot recall exactly what sho`ah means at this time, but holocaust, from what i understand in the biblical sense, the old testament sense, means sacrifice (i think the meaning goes deeper than that even, but that is what holocaust refers to in the old testament).

i apologize for the digression from this article, but i remember bapsi sidhwa in an article referring to the partition violence as a holocaust. i mentioned this to a professor friend, who himself is armenian, and whose father lost many in the armenian genocide, and he seemed hesitant to name partition violence as holocaust. i think of what happened during that time as fratricide myself, personally, but that`s just one way of looking at it. murder is murder, be it called holocaust, genocide or fratricide. that is not to minimize any of those terms. they all involve murder. perhaps holocaust involves something even deeper though, i don`t know.

and temporal, having read most of these latest posts, i think i will leave what i wrote in my ilog just where it is.

temporal:
``...the plight of partition refugees cannot be fairly compared to the ongoing holocaust of the palestinians...in no small measure compounded by their dumb leadership...but then both of us are digressing;)``
...the basic difference is that the partition refugees have abandoned their right to go back to their homes. The Palestinians, on the other hand, are stubbornly unwilling to compromise on that issue even after three generations and have preferred the instability of camp shelters to a settled life. You can admire their courage or call it their foolishness, but this stubbornness is costing them dearly - the more stubborn they become, the more land they are losing to the Jewish settlements.

There was a time in history when most of my relatives were people who had been driven out from their lands. I don`t see any of them holding any sort of rancour.

I live in Defence Colony, opposite Lajpat Nagar, in Delhi, surrounded by what were, 50 odd years ago, other ``refugee colonies``. I see prosperity way beyond other non-refugee areas. (Civic failures too, but that is different and endemic!!)

I never saw any Palestinians or for that matter other Arabs even mildly protest about 1971 pogroms, while I remember Israelies even way back in 1970 being part of raising funds for those refugees. Check out Bangladesh`s relationships with Israel today.

We all move with time, as we learn from nature. Religion doesn`t feed. Guns do help. What we learnt from the Israelis in agriculture and environment protection, for example, would be worth much more than a gross of temples, churches, mosques and gurudwaras each. Yet we don`t hear about them going about weeping about the reducing number of Jews in India?

As a people, we have welcomed all over the centuries. We are not about to stop now.

MNIPhirsay:

``Ahhh...so it IS about Muslims. ``

No Sir, it is not. That was me throwing your cheap shot at religion right back at you. To me, religion and race does not matter, neither in individual interactions, nor in national policies. Attitudes do. I have the same amount of impatience with anyone else who may profess a victim mentality, regardless of race and religion. I do know that if I was to display that impatience, you would again call me a bigot. If I was to criticize my own people, you would probably call me an Uncle Tom. So you, there is no winning because regardless, I will be labelled. Which is why I don`t give a shit.

The rest of your post is written in a good spirit and was worth reading.

MNIPhirsay:

One more thing I would like to reply to:

``You seem to harbor an animus against them``

I don`t have an any animus against them per se. I do have an animus against their ``special victim`` status they get. How much coverage does the Palestenian cause get compared to the misfortunes of others? The number of Palestenians who die is negligible in a South Asian context. And yet South Asians are crying about Palestenians? In 1984, more Sikhs were massacred in 2 weeks then Palestenians have been killed in past two years. When was the last time these Leftist Indian mothafukkers campaigned about justice denied? What makes the victimhood of Palestenians special to us desis?

Why this is an interesting case is that it points to how a formerly victimized peoples continue the same cycles of repression and denial- against another peoples who are considered opportune to support but the most marginalized of the Arab world. Actually, Ian Buruma wrote an interesting article in the NYTimes Mag about global attitudes towards current Zionist policy, quite recently.

naqshbandi,

.............and here i was thinking that unlike flaming jihadis like tahmed you were a laughable but benign hare krishna type of muslim ........how do you expect the israelis to react when you say frightening things like, ``the WHOLE of ``israel`` is actually palestine and it is all the property of the muslims``???? ...........

..............i was wrong - i guess there is no such thing as a moderate muslim........

Who gave the right to the jews to Israel? Who gave the right to the Sauds to Saudi Arabia? Who created Syria and Iraq and Jordan?

Why are you silent about all these other countries, Farzana? Why is it only Israel that occupies your full attention? Have you demonstrated outside the Saudi embassy calling for an end to the fascist islamocracy that rules there? Have you called for a referendum in Syria? Speak up, I cannot hear your reply !

Israel is a democracy. Its arab citizens have reasonable rights and outside times of crisis live in peace. It is in the indian national interest to reach out to Israel and build excellent defence, civilian and economic relations. Do you support the indian national interest? Please answer yes or no.

Two of my grandparents were born in what is today Pakistan (Lahore, Sialkot). The third was born in Srinagar. Since the partition none of my family lives in pakistan and since the 80s none of them live in the kashmir valley. What should we do Farzana? SHould we sit around and plot suicide attacks? Should we drink ``bitter tea`` and cultivate grievances?

The palestinians have literally been given 100s of millions of dollars by the US and EU. SOmehow, all that happens is that they keep thinking of their old homes. Meanwhile refugees with much, much less (vietnamese, tibetans, indians) move forward improving their lives and setting new and higher goals. Is there some very special reasons the palestinains cannot do that? And why must they be admired for their insistence on living in the past?

...i hope ariel sharon gets a warm welcome to india, just like iran`s president mohammad khatami did (chief guest at the republic day parade)...there is no reason we cannot befriend them both and watch musharraf $hit bricks in the process...

RSaxena:

#39

Exactly right. This is not about religion. It is about self interest.

SR #3: Interesting point. I never thought of this one.

There is a (racist) saying about Jews. 1) Any country that welcomes Jews, prospers 2) Jews always overstay their welcome and get kicked out of every country that welcomes them.

Along with the banks you mentioned, Jews in the world are supremely successful in everything they are currently doing. It is almost mind bogling. In IT, names like Ellison, Dell, Grove etc. In politics names like Lieberman etc. In entertainment names like Spielberg and Sienfeld.

Allan Dershowiz, the Harvard lawyer, in his book The Vanishing American Jew, mentions some amazing statistics about American Jews. I don`t remember them exactly, but something like 40% of the American noble prize winners etc. Even though I don`t believe in racial superiorities, one almost has to use it to define the success of Jews. In 1999, India had three companies on the Nasdaq, tiny Israel had 98.

Historically, they dominated a central portion of the world at one point.

Yet the total number of Jews in the world is about the same as the total no. of people in Karachi. If evolution is the key to success, then I am afraid somewhere along the line, despite their success individually, the Jewish community missed out on some major piece of survival strategy. 1.2 million Muslims, 1.2 billion Hindus and only 15 million Jews. And on top of that, Dershowitz says even they are disappearing from the USA, due to intermarraiges with Christians and due to having few children. I think Dershowitz mentioend that there will be only 10,000 or so Jews in USA in seventy five years (can`t remember the exact no., but it was phenomenally low).

So the Jewish community is doing something wrong, somewhere along the line. Because, not only are the in a microscopic number, they only have a tiny country, and their numbers are reducing, making them more and more vulnerable.

What exaclty are the doing wrong? Well we all have our faults. First of all, their conversation laws are too strict. They are way too exclusive. And they don`t know when to stop, when they have power.

Israel is, right now, in comparison to its neighbors as powerful as it is ever going to get. There are 22 Arab countries, with 220 million people. And Israel is kicking the crap out of the them. However, the demographics of the Muslims are changing vis-a-vis the Middle East. Sooner or later, some Muslim country will get its act together, and move out of the third world. Then others will have a role model and follow it. The no. of Muslims in Europe outnumbers the Jews, and countries like France are already being forced to change their policies due to this. The same will happen in the USA within a generation or two, though not with the same intensity.

At that time, Israel will end up in a much weaker state vis-a-vis Arabs, than it is now. It will still have at its extremely sophisticated nukes to protect it. But it will not have the nearly the same negotiating leverage.

Based on this, my advice to Israelis would be, to make peace now, when you are in the driver`s seat, and can get the best deal. Otherwise, once the Arabs get their act together (whch they have done historically - they ruled the world, which us South Asians never did), then the odds will be too much against the Israelis.

Maybe this is the major mistake Jewish communities have been making throughout history. They are very successful individually, but they don`t seem to know when to stop and not push it too much. Christians, outside USA, racistly don`t like Jews. After all, it was not Hitler alone who was responsible for the Holocaust. The European population was involved also. Muslims, on the whole, had gotten along well with Jews. However, now they have been turned into enemies. Not very good long term strategy from the Jewish side, if you ask me.

hindu india and israel are united by their hatred for islam so this alliance is no surprise at all. Allah tells us in the Qur`an:

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. (Quran, 5:82)

hamid--i am not a ``jihadi`` but a Sunni Muslim; however that doesn`t mean that I condone what is blatantly wrong (the existence of israel). how would you like it if someone (say the USA) kicked all panjabis out of panjab and called it hellas and filled it with all the macedonians because the macedonians believed it rightfully belonged to them? that is what happened with israel and the palestinians.

Hazrat Umar conquered Jerusalem and the Jews were treated with dignity and respect and Hazrat Umar declared that the whole of the land would be a waqf for all time and belong to the Muslims. That is our claim on Israel.
The Jews can live their but it must belong to us. (the muslims).

re Naqshbandi

``**sigalph--who the f*** gave the bloody british (and french) to carve up the land of palestine and give it to the jews in the first place? ``

Glad you asked that. It was your favorite Ottoman Caliphate, the Osmaniya Khilafat, the last true Muslim sultanate(as you say). Happy?


On a more serious note, I see that in the last couple of years your language has not quite improved. Perhaps time to look for a different tariqa, hazrat.

sigalph

that was why i used three asterisks instead of saying the four letter word as i *try* not to swear but sometimes i fail. thanks for pointing my mistke out.
actually hazrat sultan abdul hamid ii rahmatullah alayhi gave the famous reply to the brits when they wanted him to cede palestine that the land does not belong to me rather it is a waqf!

i am happy with my tariqa thanks.
:-)

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Glad to find this board so far free from the usual anti and pro FV hysteria. One could hardly see the article for the heat and dust on earlier boards.

`(Never mind Brajesh Mishra’s silly pronouncement, “The US, India and Israel have to jointly face the same ugly face of modern day terrorism”.)`

It might help if you explain what`s so silly about the pronouncement, Farzana? Sneering is no substitute for criticism.

Stuka hits the nail on the head as far as I`m concerned. As Indians we should be concerned first and foremost with Indian interests. If the Palestinians are suffering that`s very sad, but what precisely does it have to do with us?? Don`t we have enough misery in our part of the world that we should go looking in the Middle East for something to cry over??

Even Pakistanis (going by the recent discussions on another board) are asking themselves whether it`s sensible of them to be more Islamic than the Arabs, and whether they shouldn`t recognise Israel for their own benefit. Now should India be more Islamic than Pakistan??

Indian Muslims would do well to try and improve their own lot before they get so agitated over what`s happening in alien nations.

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Dear Farzana:

Neither the borders are going to contain alliances, nor the religions are not going to form friendships. In the past, religions could not be contained within borders, also border could not contain religions. In my view, Islam could not have spread otherwise.

Myopic view of extreme islamists forget that the golden age of Islam in Spain also saw the best cooperation between Jews and Muslims. Only if you had researched and wrote on the co-existence of these two religions to create prosperity. It is quite easy to write about antagonist views about Israel and Palestinians, but more important is to write a testament of their cooperation.

President DeGaulle rightly said ``People have friends, and nations have interests``. Indian, the U.S. and Israeli interests converge not because of anti-muslim, but because of market forces that are sending jobs to India from the U.S. as we speak, and because of the demand for technology, skills, market and capital.

From the dawn civilization, immigrations, forced or unforced, have displaced some and rehabilitated others. Whatever, happened in North America during American-Indian wars. Unfortunate may be, but a reality certainly. Sooner the Palestinians accept a peaceful co-existence with Israel, the better it would be for all. I am sure the tea you would wold not be bitter either. Together, the Arabian wealth, Israeli talent and capital are capable of producing a second golden age for Islam. Also, only then Arab wealth would not be locked in the hands of the few, Saud family included, but would be distributed in Arab hands. Jihadist are not going to produce the second golden age of Islam, they will only deliver more bombed out Afganistan and Iraq. The world will willingly help them. Please don`t complain about the U.S., the U.K., Musharraff and Pakistan were very willing ally and amplify my point.

ANIL

This is the first article where I have noticed more than several postings from Temporal. This is not the norm. Remarkable, I must say!
Anyway, nice to hear from you, no matter when and where. All credit to Farzana for writing a wonderful article.

Farzana, As a soveriegn nation India has a right to invite anyone, even if it is a known terrorist. I understand your concern as a Muslim in India and I think you have done well to express it here. However, if I stand aside and look at how this world is shaping up, I would assume that it is probably in India`s immediate interest to welcome Israeli attention and vice versa. I don`t suspect Indian policy makers and Hindu fundamentalists are making fists and banging their tables, saying, ``Yeah, this will teach Pakistan``

Israel is a powerful albeit a small nation with amazing reach and potential on the international scene. The fact that it is oppressing an entire nation is not something that India or any other country can concern itself with. Maybe as a matter of priciple but certainly not as a matter of realpolitik. As a Pakistani, I do have concerns but I must say that India is not banking on Israel`s help to continue its aggressive policies towards Pakistan, some of which definitely have good reciprocal basis in the aggressive and childish policies of Pakistan Army. I don`t think India needs Israel so much as it needs the US for its interests. Everything that Israel can sell to India will need US` stamp of approval anyway.

One more point that I must agree with here is that Palestinian cause is more Arab than Islamic. Arab nationalism was all the rage when the Palestinian issue gained momentum. So, when the wars fought for Arab pride (`48, `67) were lost on the battlefield or arguably even before the battle had begun, and consequently Arab nationalism lost its momentum, Islam made its appearance to some extent but it is still mainly about land and not some idealogy.

Anyway, I must say that Muslim Majority states are in a state of despair and If I hadn`t used the word state so many times I would have used it again to describe their horrid state of internal affairs, oops, there I go again. I should probably wait for a few more weeks or months before commenting further on this st&*(^% (can`t stay away from that word, ofcoarse being a Pakistani has its downsides :-) who knows Pakistan might end up accepting Israel and we may be saying Shalom soon to the killers of unarmed, starved Palestenian refugees and guys who have spent their lives breaking Arab skulls for a living.

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Miss Poison Pen writes, ``But I have spent hours with Palestinian students in India, sitting with them over cups of bitter tea at their hostel canteens, and wondered how they could identity and feel so strongly about a land that they had never seen, whose history was wiped out by the razing of 480 villages. From Jordan and Lebanon, where most of their families live, how could they aspire for freedom and peace?``

How about the Sindhis in India? Do they have a place they can call home? Can they visit the land of their forefathers?

While you are shedding copious tears for the Palestinians -- whom you had not mett till late in your life -- you seem to have no sympathy for the Sindhis in your backyard in Bombay.

But then the Sindhis were expelled by Islamist thugs so it is all right! Only Muslims have a monopoly on suffering.

If some Indians choose to protest against the trip - its well within their rights to do so. But remember every year around 30,000 Israeli tourists visit India so why not welcome another one even the Prime Minister? If the leader/dictator of Pakistan can be invited for talks then why not a leader of a friendly democratic country? There are approximately 45,000 Jews of Indian origin in Israel today, its time to cement those ties.
Shalom Alekhim.

re Nasqshbandi
``The Jews can live their but it must belong to us. (the muslims).``

Man, I don`t know whether to laugh at the comedy of arrogance or the tragedy of ignorance. Reminds me of another old Bengali saying `gaachhey kathal, gofey tel` which roughly translates into licking your lips while the fruit is far above your reach.

As several times before, I`ll remind you of that great Prime Minister of Pakistan, Hazrat Maulana Husain Shaheed Suhrawardy, rahmatullah alaihi and actual descendant of the founder of the Suhrawardiya: Israel has come to stay.

And just to make you a little more troubled, may I add that I feel privileged that part of my taxes go to defend innocent Israelis against terrorists of the secular and fundamentalist kind. And I told my Senator last week that he ought to request the Secy of State to move the embassy to Jerusalem (as required by 1996 act), the united, ancient, and eternal capital of Israel.

Dear stuka, veeresh and other Punjabi Hindus wallowing in self-pity,

For every Hindu or Sikh expelled from West Punjab a Muslim was expelled from East Punjab. Further, the partition of Punjab was DEMANDED by the Hindus and Sikhs.

Partition of Punjab was your demand and you, therefore, bear primary responsiblity for what followed. So cut it out before you drown in your own puke.

sigalph #55 ``And I told my Senator last week that he ought to request the Secy of State to move the embassy to Jerusalem (as required by 1996 act), the united, ancient, and eternal capital of Israel. ``

LMAO! A Bangladeshi ZioNazi?????? I`ve seen it all now!

MNIPhirsay #8

Well said!

sighalph $43 ``Glad you asked that. It was your favorite Ottoman Caliphate, the Osmaniya Khilafat, the last true Muslim sultanate(as you say). Happy? ``

Why don`t you just answer the fucking question, moron? What right did Jewish squatters from New York and Manchester have to steal Palestine, to expel most of the native population and to create a racist state that excludes Palestinians on Palestinian land? What right did the British have to assist them in this almighty land grab which to this day is one of the biggest threats to world peace?

A straight answer please. Don`t start regurgitating ZioProp or else I`ll fling straight back in your face.

re dionysus
``I`ve seen it all now! ``

You ain`t seen nothing yet, bro. Wait until the PLO is crushed, Hamas liquidated, and Islamic Jihad obliterated. And this nonsense of `Palestinian Authority` given a decent burial. Then we can start working on real and lasting peace.

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dionysus:
I have yet to meet a hindu or sikh who says that he voluntary left Pakistan because he loved India. They did so because the alternative was death or reading the kalima. The last time I checked, there are millions of Mohajirs who are proud that they went to the new promised land for which they had fought. These Mohajirs are no different from the jews of Europe and the U.S who went to their promised land. Almost all the hindus and sikhs and mainly Panjabi Muslims are like the Palestinians (and the jews from Arab countries) who were kicked out of their homes.
And the last time I checked, the percentage of Muslims in India was greater than at the time of the partition. What about the percentage of the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan? Unlike Pakistan where non-bhangi Hindus are under constant pressure to convert or leave, there are not any instances of Muslims who have felt any pressure to convert or leave. At worst, they are being asked by an expanding lunatic fringe to give up their separae identity. Yes, the Hindu and Sikh leaders did demand the partition of Panjab if India was to be partitioned. Any guess as to what the percentage of Hindus and Sikhs in an undivided Panjab in Pakistan would have been if all of it had remained in Pakistan?

P.S.
In addition to non-bhangis, I should have also added hindu haris who are also under no pressure to leave or convert as long as they keep supplying their daughters and sisters to their vaderas on demand.

Dionysus:

``For every Hindu or Sikh expelled from West Punjab a Muslim was expelled from East Punjab.``

True. Nobody said only Hindus and Sikh have a monopoly on suffering. What itch are you getting up your backside then?


`` Further, the partition of Punjab was DEMANDED by the Hindus and Sikhs. Partition of Punjab was your demand and you, therefore, bear primary responsiblity for what followed. ``

Yes, in reaction to the Partition of INDIA demanded by Muslims. Does that mean you bear responsibility for what followed then and what follows now? I know your Seargent Major genes don`t allow for much thinking but at least try and do so before you post.

By your logic, Hindus and Sikh demanded partition of Punjab therefore they are responsible for all the killing that took place. Well, then I guess Mmuslims bear all responsibility for being killed in the rest of India right? Gadhey.

Here is another one

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=31163

Maneaters of the Desert
Israeli democracy is a facade. For non-Jews it is an unequal, unjust society
Shelley Walia



As India welcomes Ariel Sharon, prime minister of Israel, the prospects for West Asia look ominous. The world does little to reprimand Israel. Even India has shown signs of favouring Israeli policy, though the left liberal still stands with the Palestinian cause.

Let the intellectual not hesitate to voice concern at the discrimination and oppression, racism and truculent aggression that are central to the region’s violence. India must do a balancing act that does not ignore the rights of the Palestinians.

In the wake of the Mumbai blasts, the Indian leadership must not forget support for Muslims of West Asia is crucial, not only for economic reasons, but politically expedient in putting an end to the hegemony of anti-Muslim Hindu sentiment. Sharon’s brand of Zionism is a breeding ground for racial politics.

India must consider Sharon’s track record, replete with assassinations of alleged Palestinian terrorists, bulldozing houses, starving and humiliating an entire people, confining them to their villages and responding to acts of terror by punishing non-combatant civilians. The occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza strip in the 1967 war led to a form of colonialism that continues till today.

A section of intellectual opinion holds Zionism as synonymous with democratic principles of equality of rights. Quoting Harvard sociologist Natham Glazer, a scholar in the area of Israeli politics and Zionism, Noam Chomsky highlights the often argued position of such intellectuals, unaware of the reality of Jewish racism.

Glazer is of the view that, ‘‘The state created by Zionism is a modern secular state in which civil rights are granted to all people of whatever origin and religion.’’ Such an admiration of Israel’s secularism and equality for all its citizens, may they be Arab, is rather ill-founded.

There is a ban on ‘‘inter-denominational marriage’’. The predominance of religion oversees even selection to the ‘‘Israeli basketball league’’. The orthodox rabbinate is the final authority in deciding who is a Jew. It must be clear there is no such thing as an ‘‘Israeli nation’’; there is only a ‘‘Jewish nation’’. Israel is the self-governing state of the Jewish people, not of its citizens.

Within Israel there is strict control on Arabs in the use of public funds or ownership of land or employment opportunities. The Israeli-controlled media churns out negative views on Arab culture. Similar criticism and ridicule of, say, Jews in America would be have been inconceivable ‘‘outside of the literature of the Ku Klux Klan’’.

On the other hand, Zionism itself has often been interpreted. Scholars like Gershom Scholem have stood against a political Zionism that imitates German imperialism, embracing the cultural Zionism of Ahad Ha-Am, stressing inner work (Innernarbeit) and an ethical core.

Many scholars object to an equation between Jews and Zionism, arguing there are dissident Jews who believe it is wrong to make Zionism the sole state policy, rob the area of peace and deprive Palestinians of their homes. Democracy and the right to practice a different religious way of life often clash with the extreme practice of Zionism.

Judith Butler, an eminent academic and a Jew, supports dissident Jews who ‘‘maintain that the violent appropriation of Palestinian land, and the dislocation of 700,000 Palestinians was an unsuitable foundation on which to build a state’’.

There is thus a critical alternative lobby that looks for Israeli-Palestine peace and justice. These are issues that need to be taken up by India’s foreign ministry and intelligentsia. Whereas there should be absolute support for the Palestinian cause without supporting the suicide bombings, Israel must have the right to exist, but only on the principles of democratic co-existence with different ethnic minorities.

Blind and short-sighted support for Israel and ignoring Sharon’s brutal actions represent an ideological shift for India. Meanwhile the Arab world looks on at India’s indiscreet and hasty dealings with these military entrepreneurs. A basketful of dollars spent on high technology weapons from Israel will bring in a truckload of wrath from the Arab Muslim world.

Learning to fight terrorism from a racist terrorist state is unethical. Even if it is diplomatically convenient.

The author is professor of English, Panjab University, Chandigarh, and currently Rothermere Fellow at the University of Oxford

Our forefathers done one great mistake at partition. when Pakistan forced Hindu to leave Pakistan our great leader of that times singing song of unity and harmony and secularism. If that time Hindus forced Muslims to leave India in same way we are more secure and we don’t have daily internal threat. we are get the harvest of the mistake of our leaders at partition. even our single leader at partition time get time to read hatred doctrine called Quran we are more safe today.evne i read somewhere at time of partition there is proposal to exchange hindu and sikh of pakistan to muslim of india.even jinnah and saradar is agree but nehru who always lived in fool`s paradise oppose it.that time muslim of india participate in pakistan movement gr8 deal but when pakistan created most of choose to live in india and love to pakistan.

Here is a nice article on Israel

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=31162

Lions of Zion
The problem is not Israel. It is the rest of the neighbourhood
Bibek Maitra



Mani Shankar Aiyar’s rantings (‘‘BJP’s favourite West Asian’’, September 5) usually don’t deserve attention. But given the timing of his article — Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is currently in India — a rebuttal is necessary.

To begin with, Israel was not a gift of western powers to Jews after World War II. Even after the Balfour Declaration of 1919 and the promise of a Jewish homeland, the British were in no mood to leave. It was only when their mandate expired and they were confronted by a war of attrition by Jewish freedom fighting units such as Hagannah, Irgun and Stern that they decided to quit Palestine.

To be part of an organisation fighting colonial powers is no crime. Sharon has every reason to be proud of this past.

The United Nations voted for the creation of Israel and Palestine to live side by side. The Jews accepted the verdict but the Arabs did not. As soon as the UN gave its decision, the neighbouring Arab countries came together to attack Israel. They failed , Israel survived. The remains of the Palestinian state were gobbled up by Jordan.

Next we come to Deir Yassin. This was an Arab village located on an elevation overlooking the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway. During the Arab siege of the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem in 1948, Israeli relief convoys were regularly ambushed. (The remnants of these convoys can still be seen if you drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem).

Israeli intelligence got reports that Arab irregulars had infiltrated Deir Yassin to attack the convoys. The Israelis entered the village, a fight ensued and Israeli forces won. To set the record straight, Sharon had no role to play in Deir Yassin.

Then we come to the Quibya massacre. This was a time when Palestinian militants used to slip into Israeli territory at night and attack border villages. The village of Quibya was such a centre for Palestinian mujaheedin and under Jordanian control.

One night, militants entered the Israeli border village of Yahud and killed a woman and her two children. The Israeli army was ordered to take punitive action. The 101 border unit, led by a young officer named Ariel Sharon, entered Quibya village and asked all inhabitants to leave. Nearly 2,700 did so.

Fearing arrest, a few mujahideen and their families hid in cellars. The 101 unit blew up houses so Quibya could no longer be a base for attacks. The fatalities that occurred were of people hiding in the cellars.

Next come Sabra and Shatilla. These massacres of Palestinians were caused by the Maronite Christian falangists militia. They felt Palestinians had upset the demographic equation in Lebanon.

Israel’s fault was this massacre took place when it was in the midst of clearing operations in Lebanon. Sharon’s fault was he was then defence minister. To blame Sharon for this is like blaming Indira Gandhi for the Nellie massacre in Assam, 1983, because she was prime minister and had foisted an election on the state.

We now come to the comparison of Jenin with Gujarat. Jenin was a factory of Hamas terrorists and suicide bombers. Does Aiyar wish to say Gujarat was similar? I can only sympathise when he compares Sharon and Narendra Modi. In his urge to condemn Modi, he has unwittingly given him a larger than life image.

If the BJP-led government takes inspiration from Israel, what’s wrong? Israel has amalgamated people from different backgrounds into one classless, casteless society. Akshenazis (European Jews), Shepardis (Asian Jews), Baghdadis, Bene Israelis from India, Morroccan Jews, Iranian Jews have merged and devoted themselves to their national dream. Does it not offer inspiration? They have made the deserts of Palestine bloom. Their water conservation and ecological awareness is world class. Can this not inspire India?

Aiyar concludes with a reference to the Oslo accord. Israel took a lead in Oslo. It resurrected Yaseer Arafat. It released hundreds of Palestinian terrorists. It allowed exiles to return to the West Bank and Gaza. What did Israel get in return? Intifada.

Aiyar’s real motive is the destruction of Israel by demographic change. On the one hand, he talks of continuing massacres of Palestinians and, on the other, of the growth in Palestinian population and of his desire that it outgrows the Jews in Israel. This is a paradox only he can explain.

The author is a former president of the Indo-Israeli Friendship Society

Re : dost-mittar # 60

“The last time I checked, there are millions of Mohajirs who are proud that they went to the new promised land for which they had fought. These Mohajirs are no different from the jews of Europe and the U.S who went to their promised land.”

Dionysus touched a raw nerve here ah! We view events through the prism of our preconceived notions, prejudices or whatever you want to call it. If you want to know why a lot of Muslims left for Pakistan watch a movie called “garam hawa” it’s a good place to start.

“At worst, they are being asked by an expanding lunatic fringe to give up their separae identity.”

It is interesting how different perspectives are view from the other side of the coin….


Regards,

Faruk

Re : Stuka # 14
“Damn right we are newly privileged and proud of it. Victims of Indian partition were rotting in refugee camps around the same time as Arabs. What we have made with our lives is thanks to our own grit. No sops, no oil, just forward thinking, putting the past behind us and working. And why should we not draw conclusions that hard work and looking ahead pay off?”

No gainsaying the grit and hard work that has made people displaced in the partition. But I think that the Indian govt. of the time and ordinary Indians were very helpful to the displaced peoples from Pakistan. India was not a rich country but I think she did what she could.

Regards,

Faruk

Re : Article
I think we should have only one ideology in supporting a cause “Our Interest” that’s it. I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, but I don’t want to fight their war for them.

Regards,

Faruk

Dost-mittar at # 60:

Your over-sympathetic and highly emotional posts for Pakistani minorities seem to be a ploy to divert attention from secular and pluralist India`s treatment of its minorities. tell me how is their plight different from a Pakistani Muslim of the same profile, say living in the interior of Sindh Punjab or Balochistan?

Some Indians also cite the migration of Hindu families from Tharparker district into India and living in the refugee camps there as an example of Muslim atrocities on them. This is distortion of facts. Both Hindus and Muslim families have migrated from the drought stricken primarily `Hindu` region due to climatic reasons. That is a region in which Holy is celebrated just like it may be any where in India. I have personally witnessed that and have participated in it.

At the international level too, this `do it youselves and blame others` game is being played with impunity.

1. Israelis are killing Palestinian children and youths at will, but make the world believe as if its the Jewish kids who are dying everyday.

2. Indian army in Kashmir is killing innocent Kashmiris everyday and also shelling Pakistan administered Kashmir killing citizens there, but India makes the world believe that its Pakistani incited ``Cross border terrorism``.

3. The coalition forces are persecuting Pakhtoons in Afghanistan and terming their resentment as incited by Talibans entering Afghanistan from Pakistan.

Dost, you cannot shed tears for others sitting in your own cocoon. Please interact with Palestinians, Kashmiris, Pakistani Hindus and Muslims and Afghan Pakhtoons at personal level to see the truth for yourself, except if you want to shed tears to divert the attention from real problems.

I may be wrong but I understand that we have had Indian Jews in relatively high positions, State Governors (Punjab Governor Jacob) and there was even an Indian Jewish general in the 1971 war (the name skips me right now). Not to mention those oddball theories about the fact that one of the lost tribes of Israel ended up in Mizoram. So there is a fair bit of Jewish presence in India. Furthermore, I don`t have the reference to hand, but I believe that there were several flights from India to Israel as part of the migration into Israel in the late 1940`s. The funny thing is while reading about the protests in Delhi. At one time, Zionism was the darling of the left and now a visceral distaste has arisen. Strange bedfellows indeed. I may well be wrong, but I would be willing to plonk serious amounts of dosh (pick your currency) on the fact that polls will come up with the fact that a majority of Indians would love this Israel Indian relationship.

Just a final comment about Brajesh Mishra. He is the national security advisor, and I would have found it very strange if he had not suggested a tie-up with Israel and USA to fight terror. If he hadn`t, I would have said, fire the incompetent fellow and get someone who can get these things going. I had written something about it in the Hindustan times and the storm of vituperation that descended on me was amazing. Oh! well.

Faruk:

With re to your post, that is true. Also even the Punjabis who went from India to Pakistan did well as well. Zia was actually a Jullunderi, and a middle class one at that.

I resent people trying to make this a religious issue. That bloody fool Naqshabandi, when RSaxena pointed out that India has excellent relations with Iran as well, responds with ``Shias have always stabbed Sunnis in the back``...

That is why I say, if people like this call me communal, damn Ii will wear this as a badge of honor.

Quick Poll to Indians:

If Palestenians were scrweing Jewish Israelis, but were in a position to sell us high quality arms as well as increase trade, how many of you lot would object to dealing with the former?

I speak for myself..I would have no problem.

Beady:


``there was even an Indian Jewish general in the 1971 war (the name skips me right now)``

Yes, it was Lt General JFR Jacob.

stuka:

Here`s a poll for you:

Prior to the American Civil War, most Southern businessmen insisted that slavery was beneficial for the US economy. And, in fact, it was. The unlimited supply of cheap labor made the plantations of the South extremely competitive.

Based on your twisted logic of always putting national interests before one`s conscience, slavery should have never been abolished. After all, it benefited the U.S.

This is not to say that national interests should always take a back seat to morality, but to speak up against what one perceives as unjust or immoral (whether wrong or right), takes a lot of courage. I do not agree with Farzana`s basic premise regarding Sharon`s visit, but I admire her temerity.

Faruk:
``Dionysus touched a raw nerve here ah! We view events through the prism of our preconceived notions, prejudices or whatever you want to call it. If you want to know why a lot of Muslims left for Pakistan watch a movie called “garam hawa” it’s a good place to start``

I never said or implied that all Muslims of India wanted a new country (many did not!) or that all of them left India voluntarily. Garam Hawa was a great film. And quite realistic, too. If I remember correctly, it showed how one brother left for the Promised Land (creating problem for the other who remained).

It is my firm belief that India`s treatment of its Muslims is nothing to be proud of. And I am not talking only about the post Babri period. Even the Congress govts. really didn`t do enough to address the real needs of Muslims and to bring them fully into the national mainstream.

But you are right. Dionysus did touch a raw nerve. India deserves every criticism of its treatment of its Muslim minority by Asia Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and other national and international human rights agencies. But when a Pakistani criticises India`s treatment of her Muslims, it gets my goat every time. Statistics do not lie. Let Pakistanis bring back the Hindu-Sikh proportion of their population to the same level where it was at the time of the partition. Then I will listen even to them.

Until then, let them hang their heads in shame and pray that we do not go down to their level of getting rid of the `mareez` to get rid of the `marz`.

Ahmadzai:
The above responds to your post too. And yes, I agree that Muslim haris in the interior of Sindh also suffer greatly, just as the poor people of India suffer, but it does not mean that Muslims in India do not face problems peculiar to them.

Stuka 72

Agree with you.

Just my two cents. We supported Palestenians and snubbed Israel for long. It was not neccessarily only justice and blah blah. The policy made sense then, Israel was not of much use to us strategically.

Now things have changed so we changed. Now we support both Palestenians and Israel. And we need not worry about problem whole world has. We have enough of our own.

We hugged Saddams, Ayatollahs, Assads, why even Mushi. What is wrong with Sharon. Oh he is not Muslim eh? It was invitation to PM of Israel. Sharon is one today. If there was democratic coup (a la Mayawati/Mulayam) and a peacenik would have become PM, he would have come instead and we would welcomed him same way.

Yogiraj Patil

Adnan:

You are missing the basic point. It is not India that is treating the Palestenians shabbily. It is the Israelis. Therefore your example hoilds true for Israelis who wish to improve their lot.

OTOH, I am saying that though we may not have slavery, we have enough moral wrongs in our own land that we should correct before giving lessons to others. The outrage directed in defense of Palestenians should rather be directed towards reducing poverty in our own country, increasing rule of law, increasing economic opportunities. The yehoods and arabs can sort out their own mess.