Two Phases of Indian Secularism

re:#60 by stuka
Yes, i have. As i said in another post, i read ``Train to Pakistan`` which was incidentally also made into a movie. It is a good book but was written many years ago. Old people hold on to cherished ideologies. Khushwant Singh is very secular in his outlook but to say that BJP will destroy India is far-fetched. I see BJP forming responsible govt with its coalition partners and being responsible for the recent economic boom in India. However, characters like Modi need to be taught a lesson. BJP won`t do it. This has to be done by the people.
Sridhar

Ref dionysus #27

[harimau #16 ``Hey Doofus, did you find a single article anywhere that talked about the burning of the train full of Hindu pilgrims at Godhra and how that spelled the end of secularism in India? ``

The murder of innocent Hindus is just as deplorable an act as the murder of innocent Muslims and the article does, in fact, mention the atrocity at Godhra.]

The question is not whether the story mentions Godhra or not. The question is whether a SINGLE story by ANY newsreporter ANYWHERE said that secularism was dead when Hindus were burnt alive. I would be happy to have you, that honest fascist Stuka who painstakingly differentiates himself from me, our Fearless Investigative Reporter from Bombay, or anybody else give me some URLs. I do need them to be comtemporaneous with the Godhra incident.

The difference between Godhra and Gujarat, according to all of you, is one of scale and of state complexity. As to scale, all I can say is that one is either pregnant or not pregnant, there being no in-between state of being slightly pregnant. If secularism was alive when Hindus were burnt to death, secularism remains alive and vibrant when Muslims were killed. Of course the question arises: why is it that we don`t have Parsis, Jains, Buddhists and Christians doing what Islamic Thugs did at Godhra. I still don`t have answer from our Fearless Reporter whose pen is particularly prolific on ``topical`` issues such as Ariel Sharon`s visit to India.

As to state complexity, I mentioned (no, I did not justify it, I merely stated the hard ground reality) that people expect to see immediate justice otherwise the politicians in power will lose power. You all excoriated me for telling it like it is and then prayed to Allah or Bhagwan that Narendra Modi be defeated which of course did not happen. Narendra Modi read the popular will better than all you armchair pundits.

[Secularism in India is dead and India is on the road to Nazism. The whole world can see that. You still have a very impressive man at the helm, Vajpayee, but the scary thought is, who will follow him?]

If secularism is dead in India, it is because secularism was used to justify vote-bank politics by discredited politicians of the Congress and leftist parties.

If you think India is on the path to Nazism, the average Indian has the comforting thought that the NDA is delivering more jobs than the Congress ever did. I mentioned in an earlier post that India`s forex reserves are rising by $750 million a month; I was wrong. In the last two weeks, it rose by $1.1 billion a week. With that kind of performance, the second largest automobile market in Asia after China (which means PEOPLE are buying cars as opposed the FATCATS under the Congress license raj), warehouses bulging with food, the average Indian does not worry if it was Nazism that delivered the goodies. If you think he is making a pact with the Devil, he doesn`t care.

Indians belonging to the poorer strata -- not just Muslims -- must analyze what caused the rise of the (essentially) Hindu middle class and why it seemingly doesn`t care for the poor. The middle class was under the jackboot of Socialism and Pseudo-secularism of the Congress for 40 years but they used the only good things that came out of those times: education and family planning. With a small family, they were able to provide quality care and education to their children and they now sit back and reap the benefits. If the poor of India would not pull itself up by its bootstraps, nobody is going to give it a helping hand. If that breeds resentment and causes a Godhra and a resultant Gujarat, that is a small price to pay, in the opinion of the middle class, in the march to prosperity.

PS. If you want to see the utter hypocrisy of the Left, read the last issue of `Frontline`, a magazine published by ``The Anti-Hindu``. It should be available on-line. It sheds copious tears over globalization and the resultant damage to the labor movement and the current Indian climate against Labor as exemplified by the Supreme Court`s ruling that state employees have no right to strike. Of course it doesn`t say anything about labor rights in China. It pointedly omits to mention that in China there is no right to strike. People in India are tired of bullsh!t labor rights, bullsh!t secularism; in fact they are tired of rhetoric and want to get on with their lives, with a fridge in the house, a car in the garage and a chicken in every pot (for the non-vegetarians).

Ref Romair #31

[As long as India`s relationship with Pakistan doesn`t improve greatly, the BJP will always be able to defeat the Nehruites.]

Wow! What took you so long to see the light?

Jinnah was right in saying that the minorities in both countries would be hostage to the good conduct of the government.

Nehru did his very best not to make the minorities hostage. Unfortunately, his prescription was dividing the small economic pie according to government diktat. The BJP`s is to enlarge the economic pie and everyman for himself and the devil take the hindmost. No wonder the BJP is winning on that count as well.

dionysis # 30

``the election of Hindu religious fanatics to power by the good people of India, and a whole lot more, what will it take to prove to you that secularism in India doesn`t exist?``


Everything is relative. The difference is that in Pakistan, no Politician has the courage to utter the word `Secular``. Not even military or even Jinnah. The Indian constitution states the `Secularism`` as its state policy.

For me, that is good enough. What happens inside India is their problem.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly,

On an earlier board you claimed that Mirza Sahib called his opponents “children of prostitutes” in his writings.

A few years ago I looked into this quote … and found it to be incorrect, and a mullah’s ploy to provoke ignorant people against Ahamdis. Here’s the link to your comment, and my brief explanation (reply #81) …

http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002228&channel=university%20ave#interact

I you have an explanation, I am all ears …

(dost-mittar Sahib, sorry for the digression ....)

Re HE # 40 ``Civil society and its legal system is founded on the principle that even if 10 criminals go unpunished, 1 innocent person must never be wrongfully punished.``
Excellent point and one that unfortunately seems to be missed by a lot of people.

#54 RSridhar : Yaar before you deride Khushwant Singh are you familiar with his works. True he had over the years cultivated this image of a dirty old man who loves his scotch, and being surrounded by women. But leave aside his very readable columns, he has writen both works of fiction and non fiction significant amongst them two-volume History of the Sikhs, Train to Pakistan, I Shall Not Hear the Nightingale, Delhi and Company of Women. And of course the very popular Khushwant Singh joke books.

#54 by rsridhar

I am not talking about individual Dalits or Muslims. Even in Pakistan, there are many Christians and Hindus who are doing extremely well in business and government service. But that doesn`t mean Pakistan has become the perfect Islamic state envisioned by Prophet Muhammad and Jinnah where all minorities are treated as equal citizens under the law. At least not yet.

The schism between upper-caste and lower-caste Hindus in India is quite well-known. On special holidays, upper-caste Hindus in many rural areas don`t parade their deities through Dalit sections of the village. Gandhi himself rebuked upper caste Hindu society for this ostracism. To set an example, he set up his ashram in which he would clean the toilets along with the dalits.

Now that`s real egalitarianism.

re #58 stuka

none arrested for the subsequent killings?
No arrests maybe a bit of an exxageration. According to a TOI (which has a known `secular` bias) report -

Besides, of the total substantive arrests made by the police, 9,954 are Hindus and 4,035 Muslims.
However, in the preventive arrests column, the statistics show that the number of Hindus arrested is much higher — 17,947 as against 3,616 Muslims.

Also of the 726 official deaths reported in the riots 552 were muslims and 168 Hindus.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?art_ID=8283550

#54 sridhar

You are deeply wrong about Khushwant Singh. You are being fooled by his scrotum-scratching person and his love for a few too many drinks.

Khushwant Singh is true bharatiya patriot. For more than 10 years his house was barricaded with sand bags when he denounced the khalistani movement. There were armed guards all around it. That took some balls, eh?

Khushwant has also written a definitive history of the sikhs. He is deeply knowledgeable in the affairs of all of india, but especially undivided punjab. I would say that ignoring what he is saying is a great error.

correction:
``Actually there has been very little discussion of secularism in India, except for ra-ra-ra from one side and pooh-pooh from the other. ``
should read:
``Actually there has been very little discussion of secularism at chowk, except for ra-ra-ra from one side and pooh-pooh from the other. ``

Romair#31
Actually there has been very little discussion of secularism in India, except for ra-ra-ra from one side and pooh-pooh from the other.
....but I would agree with you on one point; the issue of tolerance, rule of law and respect for `others` is more important than any ideology.

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and stuka:

Unfortunately, economic progress does not ensure tolerance. Gujarat is one of the most economically advanced state in India and is currently the least tolerant. The BJP government has seen tremendous groundwork for economic progress but will also be known for increased bigotry and intolerance. Germany prospered hugely under Hitler and also turned into a most intolerant society.

Urstruly#24:
``I never understood what really the ideology of political hiunduism is?``
Good question! From what I have seen, it seems that for political inspiration, one has to read the likes of Veer Savarkar and the RSS ideologue, Late MS Golwalkar. I haven`t read them but based on secondary readings, it claims that India belongs to those who consider it their Maatri-bhoomi (motherland), Pitiri-bhoomi (fatherland) and Punya-bhoomi (holy land). They believe that it is not possible for Christians and, especially, Muslims to think of India in that way. Therefore, they do not have as much stake in the country as Hindus, Sikhs, etc.
That was true for the united India. I dont know what it means with the current reality where a part of the holy land of the Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists is in Pakistan.

``What does Ram Raj mean?``
A notion devoid of any real religious meaning. To the Hindu masses, it merely connotes a just society. It does not refer to any particular form of governance. Gandhi used the expression a lot to convey a sense of the kind of society where the ruler would be fully accountabel to the people.

``How do the hindu nationalists propose to amend constitution to accomodate hindu law and societal values. And why Muslims are considered, by default, the opponents of any such potential changes.``
The only amendment they seek is a Uniform Civil Code which, ostensibly is a very secular proposition, but there is an undeniable hostility towards Muslims in this demand, simply because a majority of Muslims is seemingly opposed to it. Other than that, they may seek to enforce a ban on cow slaughter, which was somehow included in the directive principles of the Indian constitution, along with such general concepts as right to work, etc.

``What really irks me is that the 95% of the hindu interlocutors at chowk tow the hindu nationalist agenda but when inquired they hide behind secularism (5% are here only for the reason that they hate Muslims & Paksitanis to the core of their bones and get paid for it).``
...if they are supporting a particular agenda, shouldn`t it be clear to you and others at chowk? As far as I can see, the only thing some of them can be accused of is (which, by the way, means my country right or wrong). And they would want Indian Muslims also to conform to the same definition of patriotism.
If 5% are getting ``paid for it``, the Indian agencies are more stupid or have more funds to waste than I thought.

``I dont buy this bullshit that dost mitter has written, which is an attempt to tone down the real issue anyway (though I dont know what issue but I know there is one)``
Could you please refer to the specific points you dont buy and why? Are there errors of facts or analysis? Have I neglected any significant facts? It is hard to respond to mere feelings.

Sridhar: And you do a great disservice to Khushwant Singh as well. Have you even read any of his books?

re:#40 by HisExcellency
What Modi and Co did was a great crime. I hope he will pay for this one day. Did you guys read the recent Supreme Court directive to the Modi`s govt. It is going to be tough for him to keep evading law. Nemesis will soon catch up with him.
Sridhar

Sridhar:

The article is about India. What satisfaction is it to a Gujarati Muslim who`s family has been killed that more Bangladeshis were killed by Pakistan?
We talk of Pakistanis blaming India to paper over their own faults. We do the exact same thing.

Also, at least Pakistanis have the excuse that they were putting down an attempted secession. What were Gujarati Muslims doing to deserve their fate?

Bigots like Harimau keep talking about the goddamn train which was burnt. Why do they not talk about number of people arrested for the train incident and none arrested for the subsequent killings? Are we idiots that we don`t see the truth?