Two Phases of Indian Secularism

#41 by stuka

I find it rather ironical that both India and Pakistan can accomplish their cherished destinations by simply implementing the rule of law. Things only get messy when rule of law and integrity of Police and Judiciary is compromised.

Politicians are dirty weasels in every country. But in mature Western democracies, they fear the judicial system and law enforcement agencies. In India/Pakistan, politicians can coopt the judges and/or police. The average Ali or Arjun in our two countries cannot get justice unless he is a lakh-pati. The temptation for picking up a gun and obtaining justice with his own hands is enormous.

The victims of Gujrat are perhaps retaliating against the Gujrati community under the same temptation.

re:#21 by soysauce
So, you are an atheist. How do you know that SriRam does not command any loyalty south of the Vindhyas? Did you take an opinion poll. As an atheist, you should not be concerned with God, so i am touched you seem to have some knowledge of who SriRam is. Do you know how many temples are dedicated to him in Madras itself? How many in Tamil Nadu? How many in other states? Have you heard of Vaishnavas? So, what you basically are saying is that you and your ilk do not worship SriRam and so you conclude nobody does. How pathetic!
Sridhar

re:#27 by dionysus
Shall we talk about the number of muslims killed by muslims in the subcontinent:
1. More than 2 million Bangladeshi muslims killed by Pakis in 1971
2. Shias being regularly killed in Karachi for many years
This list is for starters. Others may feel free to add to the list.
Sridhar

re:#35 by HisExcellency
Khushwant Singh is a scrotum-scratching (he has little else to do at his age), scotch sipping, senile sardar. Do you think anyone can do serious research sitting in a room without going out and interacting with the people you are talking about. He is famous, so even if he said his scrotum has pimples, it will make news. I would not take him seriously.

You replied to Sri in post # 35:
``Congratulations on being the odd Dalit who successfully beat a system rigged against your community. ``
How do you know that there are not many more? I know that there are many, many more Dalits who are moving up the social ladder. My father`s best friend was a Dalit. For generations, his family occupation was to carry ``human excreta`` for safe disposal. Yes, do not be shocked. That is how demeaning his forefather`s occupation was. He used to go to a night school where he was helped by a brahmin teacher. Later, he took advantage of the reservation policy and rose in govt jobs. He was my dad`s senior when my dad met him first in Delhi. His children are all doctors and engineers. There are thousands of such instances. Do you know that the ex-president of India K.R. Narayanan is a Dalit?

You guys show your prejudice when you make such sweeping statements. India has in place the biggest reservation (or call it affirmative action) system anywhere in the world. I am not debating here if it is right or wrong and what it has done to the quality of education but there is no doubt that thousands of poor, unpreviliged people have benefitted from this system.
Sridhar

#41 by stuka

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The funny thing is that your posts are more patriotic from an Indian stand point that those of the supposed defenders of Hinduism
++

Hehe.. I better watch what I say before the Mullah chowkies start accusing me of being ghaddar Pakistani :)

soysauce#21:
``What you (and uppercaste hindus) enumerate as perceived bias against hinduism are really a case of bias against uppercaste hindus. Temple endowments were treated as private wealth. (I must admit that government dabbling hasn`t been a uniform success, owing to political parties gaining control over temple funds). Now they are used for the benefit of temples. Hindus were lucky that some of the godawful practices within the religion got reformed by government fiat. Being the majority, they naturally deserved immediate attention in this regard. In a way, the government favored the hindus by making them the object of reform first. ``
My caste is immaterial, as is yours. Let`s stick to the facts and analysis, if we could, please!
I think I made the point in the article that the reform was good and needed. The Hindu society benefitted from the reform and the Muslims (and the society in general as Muslims are a big chunk of the society) have suffered from not having similar reforms. But there is such a thing as the unintended effects: the perception of asking Hindus to change their ways in the name of progress but not demanding the same from Muslims was bound to have an adverse effect on the majority....and it did!

saminshah#8
The new Hindu intolerance may not seek its inspiration from the Hindu religion but that does not make it any less dangerous. It is more akin to the fascist hatred of Nazi Germany and what is happening in Gujarat, the majority of the population turning against a hapless minority, should start ringing alarm bells all over India. To my mind, what happenend in the aftermath of Godhra was bad enough, but what happened in the following election was even more alarming, because it put a seal of popular approval on Modi`s guilt-by-association theory.

ballukhan#10
``In the same way, the author of the post has identified the policies of BJP or RSS as secularism par excellence in India.``
.....must be due to my poor communication skills. All I was trying to say was that the earlier policy could easily be used to create the perception of pro-minority in the majority. I made it quite clear, too, that the minority, in reality, suffers from discrimination.

ahmadzai#11
The Malaysian example has only a limited validity. Chinese in Malaysia were/are like the jews in Germany/USA or Asians in East Africa - controlling the economy - whereas bumiputra Malaysians are a majority that controlled the levers of political power but were lagging economically. The Indian situation is more like the US where a black minority lacks in both political and economic clout. Still, there should be practical incentives for Muslims in India to become full partners in the country`s economic progress.

HisExcellency:
You have made excellent points in your various posts. Indians are lucky to have a true friend in you in Pakistan. Khushwant Singh`s prognosis about the End of India could be a bit alarmist. The disease is still in its early stages and, if properly diagnosed, can be arrested. Fortunately, Vajpayee recognizes the problem and I have a feeling that even Advani has begun to realise that things have gone too far. Fortunately for India, the Modi factor did not work in Himachal Pradesh. We will soon see if Modi is used by the BJP in the coming state assembly elections and, if he is used, whether he proves an asset or a liability....if he proves an asset, I would advise to sell any shares you have in an Indian company.

hamidm2:
Your analysis may be correct about Pakistan or other Muslim countries but not about India. Indian Muslims, even the likes of Imam Bukhari (dont fall in the Romairian trap of confusing secularims with irreligiousity!), are the most secular segment of the population. The only exception is the fledgling SIMI, which has been banned in India. Indian Muslims have not demanded a change in the constitution of India, the bedrock of Indian secularism. They were conceded certain rights by the founding fathers of the Indian constitutions and they are unwilling to forego to those rights.

nazar#17
``My only fear is that the Pakistani believers of two-nation theory may get reinforced in their belief that they were always right and a Hindu-Muslim peaceful co-existance is not possible.``
This indeed is a universal position taken by the Pakistani media. They ignore the fact that the partition itself is to a large extent possible for the tainted status of India`s Muslims in the eyes of the majority.

[...but Advani`s yath ratra started earlier...]

earlier than the insurgency in kashmir? no...Sept 25, 1990.

http://www.bjp.org/leader/sjry6.html
New Delhi, May 16 (ANI): Describing ``Yatra`` as a journey and a pilgrimage to bridge the gap between the ancient and the modern, the past and the present,BJP President L.K. Advani said that his party had successfully used this concept on four previous occasions to reach the people on issues of national concern.

He said the BJP`s first yatra-- the Ram Rath Yatra--nailed the bogie of pseudo-secularism and communalism and made a case for the promotion of cultural nationalism. It began from Somnath on September 25, 1990 on the birth anniversary of Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya and culminated in Ayodhya on October 30, after traversing 10,000 kilometres.

The 47-day Ekta Yatra from December 11,1991 to January 26, 1992 from Kanyakumari in the south to Srinagar in the north was aimed at dousing what the BJP called ``the flames of separatism and fundamentalist terrorism fanned and abetted by Pakistan.`` It was led by senior BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi.

The Janadesh Yatra from September 11 to 25, 1993 was started to highlight the BJP`s opposition to the introduction of two draconian Bills-- the Constitution 80th Amendment Bill and the Representation of People(Amendment) Bill-- both of which were aimed at banning religion from public life as well as denying political spce to the BJP. The Yatra was started from four corners of the country with Advani leading it from Mysore, Bhairon Singh Shekhawat from Jammu, M.M.Joshi from Porbandar and Kalyan Singh from Calcutta. The yatra concluded at Bhopal.

The Su-Raj or Good Governance Yatra, Advani said, was conducted in two phases-- the first phase began in Ernakulam on March 9 and ended in New Delhi on March 23, 1996. The second phase began from Indore on April 14 and ended in Lucknow on April 23. It was undertaken with the aim of restoring probity to public life and to let the people decide on who was right or wrong for governing the country.

The Swarna Jayanti Yatra from May 18 to July 10, 1997, he said, will be launched with the aim of rekindling the spirit of patriotism.It will also seek to recall the last four yatras organised by the BJP and the message that each one of them conveyed to the people.(ANI)

#42 by dost-mittar
``Babri masjid was destroyed before the start of the insurgency in Kashmir. ...``
correction:
kashmir insurgency start before babry masjid destroyed.
babri masjid destroyed in 1992 on 6th dec. and kasmir insurgency start in 1988 .
in 1989 kasmiri pandit migrated from vally to jammu under protection of governer Jagmohan.
For more information there is book of Jagmohan titled “My frozen turbulence in Kashmir”

concerned1#47:
Sorry for the careless goof-up. Yes, babri masjid was demolished in 1992 but Advani`s yath ratra started earlier.

[...Babri masjid was destroyed before the start of the insurgency in Kashmir...]

insurgency in kashmir - 1989
babri demolition - 1992

Dionysus:

``...prove to you that secularism in India doesn`t exist? Or are you going to hold on to this fanciful notion as if your life depended upon it, no matter what? ``

Why do you care either way? Or are you celebrating the fact that secualrism does not exist as it helps you prove a point? In which case I am sure you can become an overseas member of the RSS.

to = #26 by yogiraj on September 15, 2003 9:23am PT
I know about Hinduism is only one thing it is very tolerant religion. now you ask how.
I told you simple way you don’t have to be rocket scientist to know this.
India is secular because of Hindu and Hindu only. how ?.because hindu consist 83 % to 85 % population of India .after shahbano case or after 1992 break down of babari mosque there were
Three national election. if Hindu voted for bjp then bjp can get 345 sits in locksabha easily
And after that Hindu can get ram mandir and Hindu state and death of secularism. Get it.

#29 sri

Aren`t we lucky to receive advice on treatment of minorities from Pakistanis? Truly, if there was a heaven for minorities, it is Pakistan.

In every pakistani city, you can see turbanned sikhs and orthodox muslims, shaivites and jains all mingling together. All around are their places of worship which are carefully maintained. In Pakistan, before partitiion the hindu/sikh minority was around 20%; today it has even increased to 22%. Truly, jinnah has brought forth a miracle...

As for India !!! The monstrous hindu fascists have reduced the muslim minority to under 1% in just 50 years. Can you beleive that??? No wonder they love Sharon so much!! Nowhere do you find a mosque and hindu temple next to each other; nowhere do you find communities in which respect is paid to all the different religous traditions. What a hell hole !!!

HE # 40,

Totally agreed with your post # 40.

platz8#1
The Supreme Court decision, valid welcome, is also a sad reflection of the Indian system where the judiciary has to step in to remind the government that it is breaking the laws of the land instead of enforcing them. In any case, I`ll keep my fingers crossed until I see the Gujarat govt. follow the court`s directive.

irum#2
If I could, I would like to make a distinction between the State and the Govt. What you say is quite true of the govt., especially some state govts., but the State is still formally secular. I know that it makes little difference to the victims, but as long as the state is secular, there is still reason to hope.

Rainbow#3&4
I am sorry I am not quite sure I understand your posts.

pmishra2:
The Congress has paid a heavy price for its role. Right now, Muslims dislike for the Congress is exceeded only by their dislike for the BJP.

dionysus#6
I am less concerned about India`s image than her march towards an intolerant society. While the people in India are not much affected by the adverse reaction abroad, the leadership and the influential Indian diaspora does care for India`s image. So, these kind of articles can only have a positive effect.

saxena#7:
``what special insight do you bring by writing this?...``
....Mr and Mrs 55 :-)

harimou#9:
`` I think you ignore the external provocations. Daily killings of Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir and the expulsion of the Pandits with no active opposition from the government fostered the belief that Hindus are fair game to Islamic extremists in India and Pakistan. ``
I think the external factors are less important. Babri masjid was destroyed before the start of the insurgency in Kashmir. I do agree that the overall back-to-fundamentalism in other religions did have its impact in the form of me-too-fundamentalism amont the Hindus.