Two Phases of Indian Secularism

HE

The funny thing is that your posts are more patriotic from an Indian stand point that those of the supposed defenders of Hinduism.

#36 by pmishra2

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Indeed. But then why is there no discussion of this issue? Why is train burning of innocent people just crime-as-usual but other crimes an instance of fascism? Isn`t it strange that one crime correctly deserves condemnation but the other crime is to be viewed as ``natural`` or ``inevitable``?
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The burning of 55-58 karsevaks in Godhra was indeed a crime against humanity. It was neither ``crime-as-usual`` nor justifiable on religious grounds. The Gujrat govt. should immediately have sprung into action and enlisted support of Muslim community in finding the terrorists. This is how a civilized and responsible govt would have behaved. Instead it embarked on a course of pogroms.

Civil society and its legal system is founded on the principle that even if 10 criminals go unpunished, 1 innocent person must never be wrongfully punished. The Modi govt and its Bajrang Dal terrorists decided to punish an entire community of innocent people just for the sins of a few Muslim murderers. What was the crime of the 2,000+ Muslims? Were they tried in any court of law before being sentenced to death??

When a government abets or plans the systematic reprisal againt a community for sins committed by a few individuals... it is behaving in a fascist manner. The brutality of Modi and Bajrang Dal in Gujrat totally eclipsed the horror of Godhra.

to = #26 by yogiraj on September 15, 2003 9:23am PT
for your kind information if you want to see my detailed answer in artical unsattling precedet for pakistan and read my post 52 and 53 and enjoy.............

#26 by yogiraj

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The later is NOT out right demonic. I hope it was. No. It has a meaning. Enough is enough. That is the message.
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Instead of ink, this message is being written in the blood of Muslims. When a few terrorists attacked a train in Godhra, the Modi government organized riots with computer printouts of Muslim shops and residential complexes. Even middle class, educated Hindus joined this carnage. I don`t know about you, but rest of the civilized world considers vicarious punishments both fascist and demonic. These riots have only one meaning: barbarism under the protection of law.

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And no, we do not need you to tell us about the middle ground. You have none. I know for 100% sure you will see to it that we will not be left alone. AK-47, Kargil, Gibratal... blah blah blah...
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Pakistanis are not the only ones telling you about middle ground. France, Germany, UK, Japan, OIC, US and UN have also urged India to shun Hindu extremism for India`s own sake.

It is customary for Pakistanis to blame India for sectarian killings or terrorist incidents in Pakistan. I am not surprised to learn that Indians have the same tendencies. Blaming Gujrat, Ayodha, Bombay riots, Bombay blasts and Gibratal on Pakistan will not solve India`s communal problem. Patriotic Indians must instead prosecute people like Modi, Best Bakery criminals, Gujrat murderers, Rath yatra leaders, and instigators of Bombay riots.

Forts always fall from within, not from outside. And the fort of India is threatened by the very people who claim to protect it in the name of Hindu fundamentalism.

doofus #27

[quote]
The murder of innocent Hindus is just as deplorable an act as the murder of innocent Muslims
[end-quote]

Indeed. But then why is there no discussion of this issue? Why is train burning of innocent people just crime-as-usual but other crimes an instance of fascism? Isn`t it strange that one crime correctly deserves condemnation but the other crime is to be viewed as ``natural`` or ``inevitable``?


Here we have crocodile tears for Gujrati muslims who constitute only 8% of Gujarat and are therefore a small and vulnerable minority. But when the Kashmiri pandits , who made up 4% of Kashmir valley, were attacked and ethnically cleansed the lovers of human rights such as doofus remained silent. Why? Indeed, I will put money that within this thread itself we will have these sectarian hate-mongers explain that the Kashmiri pandits ethnically cleansed themselves or do not really exist or deserved extermination etc.

Indians have some real work to do and the defeat of Modi in Gujarat will be a good first step. An even better second step would be the defeat of Advani at the center. But we should not get distracted by sectarian hate-mongers who profess concern about terms like ``secularism`` and ``democracy``. These issues lie well beyond their understanding or experience.

to #26 by yogiraj on September 15, 2003 9:23am PT
hey man are you think i am hindu?.
what question you want to ask ?
when i run away?
when i told you or anyone hinduism had not shortcomings.or it is gr8 religion or blahblabla..?
and finaly why are you so much angry.
if you had any quetion to me cleary put in english and use some civilian language.

#29 by sri

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As a Dalit and as a winner who does not believe in self-pity `ing, self-ghettoizing losers attitude ( some Dalits and most muslims ), I can tell you that your dream ( ``end of India`` )is a pipe dream just like the popular dream of ``Islamic ummah``.
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Congratulations on being the odd Dalit who successfully beat a system rigged against your community. How many other capable dalits can emulate your example? This is the yardstick by which Indian secularism will eventually be judged. If you believe Hindutva will improve the economic conditions and social status of Dalits, please feel free to rubbish my posts.

I am surprised how a ``successful Dalit`` like yourself could mistake Khushwant Singh`s fear (`end of India`) as my pipe dream. I never said that I wanted the ``end of India``. Your knee-jerk reaction to my post only proves that at the back of your mind, you also have a similar fear but are too proud to admit it.

Anyway, I still stick to the common-sense view that Hindu fundamentalism will only widen the cleavages between minorities and the Hindu majority. This ultimately will lead to the implosion of India. Better stop and take stock now, before its too late.

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Faisal at # 23:

Recall that rabbid anti-Pakistan posters arjun_m, Jay, pmishra2, m_souza, etc. are absent from the board. Could it be that one of them is posting under a new name? At least arjun, sarwar and ballukhan show the same tendencies.

nazarhayatkhan,

Well then good you were pleasantly surprised... You were keeping your fingers crossed for a much harsher reaction because you have neither attempted to understand my point of view nor have you bothered to read my posts... My objection to you is neither your willingness to question the official discourse nor your secularism (both are my own things)... my objection is to your over simplification and your tendency to work `history` out in your head. This is all sadly PAF training.

Had you taken my advice and read the Cambridge point of view especially Ayesha Jalal, you would have probably arrived at a point where you would neither be a slave to the official Pakistani histiography which is sham, nor would your position be an abject surrender to rightwing Indian Hatemongering. Instead you would be in a far more balanced place when talking of history, and wouldn`t make such sweeping generalizations as you have the tendency to.


Anyway I am glad we are more cordial terms today... lets see how long this lasts... the Military mind isn`t my favorite you know...

-YLH

Just when you thought it was safe to go into the water……another article on secularism and religion. Chowk is really starting to turn into a one-theme site. First it was India vs. Pakistan articles. Now it is religion and secularism. There are other issues in the world, and other problems and solutions.

India is (was) a super-secular state. With a secular this and a secular that. If secularism is (was) the key to everything, then India should have left Pakistan a hundred years behind. Yet it struggles along at the same levels. Even more, its population has actually become fed-up with secularism and has now gone willingly and democratically, to becoming one of the most non-secular states in the world.

Pakistan is (was) a super-religious state. With religious this and religious that. If religion is (was) the key to everything, then Pakistan should have left India a hundred years behind. Yet it struggles along at the same levels. Even more, its population has actually become fed-up with religionism and the country is now trying to become more secular.

Twenty years from now, the two countries may well end up swapping systems. With Pakistan becoming the super-secular state and India becoming the super-religious state. Then they will have reached where the other was. Yet, I can make a bet, both will still be equally backwards, if they both don’t sort our their real-world issues of their respective societies. Even if Pakistan declares itself the Super Secular/Even Athiest Republic of Pakistan, the SSP will still be killing Shias, until the feudal system of Jhang isn’t changed. And even if India declares itself Hinduvtaistan, it will still face the same issues with Muslims, it faces today, until the Indian Muslims aren’t provided massive affirmative action in education.

Maybe, instead of blaming everything on the BJP for winning democratic elections, our secular Nehruites should try to figure out, why the BJP has been able to defeat them again and again. One cannot just blame the BJP for its yatras. They are only doing what the population wants. One cannot even blame them solely for the Gujrat incidence. They only provided a vehicle through which the population expressed itself.

And overtly looking after a minority group in a country, is nothing unusual. It is actually a sign of progress. Americans give all kinds of benefits to African-Americans, far and above, what is given to whites. Yet one does not see a Yatra against the Blacks by the Whites. Nowdays, Christians in Pakistan are more enfranchised than Muslims. Christians can elect a Christain candidate and a joint-candidate. But one doesn’t see a yatra against them.

So maybe, the rise of BJP is due more to the fact that there is no legitimate humane force to counter them. Maybe, the Nehruites aren’t all that they make themselves out to be, and deep down inside, share far too much with the BJP. Maybe, secularism has inhumane faces also, and thus cannot counter the BJP, just by itself.

Maybe, just maybe, religionising or secularising a country doesn’t hold the answer. Maybe the answers lie somewhere else. After all, neither has done much for Pakistan or India, respectively. If the history of Pakistan and India and their experiments with secularism and religionism hasn’t proved this, then I am not sure what else will.

To sum it up, the problem expressed in this article, definitely needs to be discussed. But people should start looking at it from angles other than secularism and religion. I think the actual problem has more to do with the Indians (both BJP and Nehruites) approach to the creation of Pakistan, and the current relationship India has with Pakistan. As long as India`s relationship with Pakistan doesn`t improve greatly, the BJP will always be able to defeat the Nehruites.

nazarhayatkhan #17

Dear nazarhayat khan,
Have you heard Carl Sagan`s story about the man who claimed there was a fire-breathing dragon living in his garage? His incredulous friends asked him to prove it by showing it to them. He took them to his garage, and guess what, no dragon. ``Where`s the dragon?``, they asked. ``Oh she`s right here, but I forgot to mention, she`s invisible``. So they suggest spreading the floor of the garage with flour so they can see her footprints. ``Good idea``, he says, ``but she floats in mid-air``. His friends then suggest using an infra red detector. ``She`s heatless as well``. Then we`ll spray her with paint. `Oh she`s incorporeal and paint won`t stick on her``.

The question is, what`s the difference between an incorporeal, invisible, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and NO DRAGON AT ALL? What does it take to convince this man that his dragon doesn`t exist?

So dear nazar, after the the election-winning anti-Muslim Gujrat pogroms, the anti-Sikh pogroms, the brutalization of Kashmir in the name of Hinduism, the election of Hindu religious fanatics to power by the good people of India, and a whole lot more, what will it take to prove to you that secularism in India doesn`t exist? Or are you going to hold on to this fanciful notion as if your life depended upon it, no matter what?

#13 by Your excellency

``attempts to bludgeon a large minority of Muslims, Dalits and Christians will only result in the ``end of India`` as Khushwant Singh succintly put. ``

As a Dalit and as a winner who does not believe in self-pity `ing, self-ghettoizing losers attitude ( some Dalits and most muslims ), I can tell you that your dream ( ``end of India`` )is a pipe dream just like the popular dream of ``Islamic ummah``.

``You still have a very impressive man at the helm, Vajpayee, but the scary thought is, who will follow him? ``

Does it matter? We don`t have a presidential system. And in a parliamentary system, a government with many coalition partners can only exist with a consensual agenda.

There is no comparison between the burning of the trains and the subsequent retaliation. While you have equated Harimau and I as ``honest fascists`` there is a significant difference. I do not have the Praveen Togadia complex of thinking myself to be the sole defender of Hinduism a la Harimau. As far as giving up inch of land on Kkashmir is concerned, please feel free to call me a fascist, it is indeed my pleasure to be known as one.

harimau #16 ``Hey Doofus, did you find a single article anywhere that talked about the burning of the train full of Hindu pilgrims at Godhra and how that spelled the end of secularism in India? ``

The murder of innocent Hindus is just as deplorable an act as the murder of innocent Muslims and the article does, in fact, mention the atrocity at Godhra. However, you are overlooking two very important differences. Firstly, the sheer scale of the atrocities against Muslims in Gujrat:2000 dead & 150 000 made homeless. And secondly, the fact that the BJP government was complicit in them - making them state-sponsored pogroms.

Secularism in India is dead and India is on the road to Nazism. The whole world can see that. You still have a very impressive man at the helm, Vajpayee, but the scary thought is, who will follow him?

``#13 by HisExcellency on September 15, 2003 7:28am PT
Very well written, dost-mittar.

The pendulum has indeed swung in India from tolerant secularism to anti-Muslim Hindu fundamentalism. The former had its flaws, but the latter is outright demonic. A middle ground must be found between the two extremes.``..

Sirjee leave us us alone. The formal had flaws eh?

The later is NOT out right demonic. I hope it was. No. It has a meaning. Enough is enough. That is the message. And no, we do not need you to tell us about the middle ground. You have none. I know for 100% sure you will see to it that we will not be left alone. AK-47, Kargil, Gibratal... blah blah blah...

There still would be time or us. We have it. We always will had it. You know what ..in India we always will make it possible. We do not lick shoes of any Tom Dick or Harry... even if he is a dictator.

And yes. I deal with N number of muslims day and day out. Problem never was that. You had, have, and will to choose to de-mean my Saminshah. Keep that in country of pures will ya?

Could you please reply Saminshah?. Your abcdefg on adoption. Your meaning of lust. Run away as Romair did ... This is not Hindu/Muslim problem for us, unlike you guys (Your women have no choice any ways. Send them to NWFP or ...). You simply run away when uncomfortable.

Yogiraj Patil


#8 by saminshah``

India, now simply do not have answer what you ask Dost-mitter. You never asked the questions to me. But still..... All I can say is the most hollow word you will ever get from the laziest Hindoo bum on the earth, and the most shallowest. ``I am sorry``.

If at all you think I should, I will start answering those questions you asked. Very slowly. Very very slowly. Only thing you will have to accept. Hinduism like any other religion had a very nasty past. I have no problem admitting what is was. Or what it is now.

Dost-Mitter

Great job Dost. Great job.

We have created the problem. We will have it sort it out. Last thing I will accept from any Indian, present or future is either this is not an issue or whinning. Lets us be positive. What we need to do from now onwards is what we need to work on. No whinning from any Indian on ..... Umreeka, Pakistan, Islam, press, CNN, Babar, Auranzeb etc.etc. is acceptable as a solution is acceptable.

I AM VERY HOPEFULL.

Yogiraj



Let us start working out the solutions. Do you agree?


Thank you