Two Phases of Indian Secularism

#121 dost mittar
Sorry I came in late! I do admire your Nehru hang-up. (Not that Nehru wasn`t somebody to be admired himself, but that`s another matter.) It even extends to his granddaughter-in-law Sonia. Sure, technically she`s an Indian, and legally allowed to become an MP, etc., etc. But how about seeing when she did become an Indian citizen? And checking out what she and her husband (with their two children, no doubt) did after the Congress was defeated in the post-Emergency elections and the witch-hunt against Indira Gandhi`s acquisitions and possessions began? Took refuge in the Italian Embassy, no less, because she was still an Italian citizen, and Rajiv had the right to settle in Italy because his wife was Italian. Why doesn`t someone also check out where all that money comes from? And I`m not referring to allegations about smuggling etc here.
I know, of course, that this is really a thread about something else entirely, and it was fascinating to read the same old things again and again every time. That`s why I refrain from responding to various posts in chowk these days. But I must draw the line at including Sonia Gandhi in any of these discussions.

harimau

I wish you were not such a defensive and scared person, I could have learned a thing or two from you.

For all those who want to know what Ram Rajya might mean, here is a newsflash.

BBC reports that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has introduced a new world currency to fight poverty. It is named Raam and each Raam is worth 10 euros. The currency has a picture of Lord Rama on it and has been put into circulation in the Netherlands where the Maharishi`s international headquarters is located. Local businesses such as ice cream parlors, coffee shops, beauty parlors, etc. (small businesses who stand to lose the most should the Raam fail) accept the Raam in exchange for goods despite the Netherlands` central bank`s warning about it.

Now you know what Ram Rajya might mean. Atheists such as Soysauce will probably choke on the thought that finally there is a currency with Lord Rama`s picture on it, which might be at least one good thing that might come out of this.

This thread is almost at an end. I thank everyone for a civilized discussion and not letting this degenerate it into another hindu-muslim, Indo-Pak slugfest.
I have noticed that Muslim Indians have been conspicuous by their absence on this board. This is not a case where silence should be considered as half-consent. Most likely, the analysis does not resonate with their feelings on this issue.

pennarthur:
Bhugidar Singh usually sticks to light-hearted bantering on chowk ``unplugged``. He is neither Indian nor Singh. No Sikh will give himself a nick of Bhugidar (For those who do not know, gidar means jackal in Panjabi).

Bandhook_ram#155:
``First, I do not why the author almost applauds separate civil code for muslims.``
I do not. What I do say is that it something which primarily affects Muslims (except in cases involving religious conversion when things can get murky!).

``Second, Why should anyone be pro-minority? I dont mind tolerating the minorities, but why be pro-minority.``
Because that is the sign of a tolerant society. Most democratic societies have constitutions which protect minorities from the potential tyranny of a majority.

Thank you hindu ppl, for educating me.

plats8,
I don`t know if there are enough Hindus left in Bangladesh to overwhelm the border districts and much of Calcutta. If they had been Hindus and the Marxists didn`t think they could be persuaded to vote for them, I think they`d be heading back across the border, where they belong; no one would be trying to get them Indian ration cards and fake school certificates. I`m not saying Hindus should be welcomed with open arms. We do have a high commission in Dhaka....just use it,guys!!! I know,though-these are poor,illiterate,people etc, but too bad, we have enough of our own. In the meantime, I am mystified as to how our brethren on the other side of the border energised themselves enough to get the Hindus out. Most unusual.
What makes you think Hinduism is a mature religion and so should be quiet? That`s a very Bengali thing to think by the way...my grandmother goes into shock whenever she attends North Indian weddings, which of course have been getting more and more showy by the day. All the `gaan baajna`, why can`t they play the shehnai for a few hours like everyone else? Anyway,with millions of people in tiny spaces,you cannot avoid the noise,what do you think,we`re all well-behaved WASPS?. I cannot remember a time,even before Ramayana, when Ganesh Chaturthi and Durga Puja were not noisy -if you can, you`re probably older than me:) Come to think of it, even my mother can`t but my grandmother says the British were very strict about noise during festivals. That, and there couldn`t have been mass-produced loudspeakers in the 40s.
dost mittar saheb,
I`ve heard of all those songs.I`m now wondering if I saw the film in the early days of Doordarshan`s Sunday evening films,so long ago that I can barely remember.
soysauce,
Leave sridhar`s profession out of this please. I don`t know whether he is clinical or research, but getting a postgrad place in any discipline in medicine is hard. I love the way the original Mr Mandal ,Weepy Singh won`t have dialysis in India,after he wrecked our medical colleges-but that debate belongs to another time and place. You have no idea of the blood,sweat and tears that go into the making of doctors..for some reason,it seems to be harder in India than in the West,because while they are expected to show understanding of key facts,we are expected to regurgitate huge quantities of material learnt by rote.

Ref Sudalaimuthu #158

[#151 Sure you didn`t do your postgraduation in some slum in madras where such language is par for the course?]

You can be sure for the simple reason he is NOT a quota candidate like you; he necessarily has to rely on his brains to get into the MD program in Chennai where 87% of all professional seats are reserved for BCs, MBCs, SC/ST, etc.

By the way, I was recently introduced to the Chennai Mathematics Institute whose 3-year B.Sc. graduates get admitted to the doctorol program at places like the universities at Sorbonne and Paris. I was quite shocked to hear that CMI is affiliated to Bhoj University in distant Madhya Pradesh as opposed to the conveniently local University of Madras for its BSc and MSc degrees. The explanation is that Bhoj University does not put any conditions such as reservations for quota candidates like you who think that a stamp from CMI would get them into Sorbonne and thus exempts CMI from pressure from local politicians so that only meritorious candidates can gain admission to CMI. Put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while before you talk about any FC`s educational qualifications or merit.

Bhugidar Singh,

I am not sure if you are a Sikh or just another agent provocateur venting his bile. Whatever your persuasion it is pretty clear that either you are one of those woolly-headed ``Sikh-Americans/Britons (the latter have formed their own political party!) or just another Rush Limbaugh locked up in a soundproof box with a mike in hand.

The much maligned RSS has for all its existence maintained a very cordial and understanding position toward all Sikhs. This even when Khalistani terrorists used to target RSS shakhas in Punjab during the height of the terrorist menace in the early 1990s. That is why the RSS is back in full force in Punjab today. And in any case if you haven`t taken a cab in NYC lately hop in ASAP. Your friendly Sardar will tell you why he is very happy to be called an Indian cabbie - those Pakis were all terrorists - good riddance. With Hindu and Sikhs continuing to maintain their cordial relations in India it doesn`t matter one whit what Sikhs in other parts of the world want to holler about- Khalistan or Lotastaan - it makes no difference.

#158
While he may have lost his temper - he had a valid point : why did u address him by his (assumed) cast, when he had made no such assumption for u?

Urstruly,

``what is an Iyer? Oh god i hope it is not a donkey or something...``


Might be a related species...research is ongoing ;) The education of pakistanis like yourself being foremost in our minds...your humble request is herewith entertained.

You may perhaps be knowing that there are many different species of brahmins to be found all over this holy land called Bharat Varsha. Near the chennai region (formerly called madras) are two interesting species called Iyer and Iyengar. They are easily distinguished by distinctive markings on the forehead.

While the Iyengar sports a vertical stripe (one or more)...the Iyer has horizontal ones.

The Iyengar considers himself as the `real` brahmin and generally looks down upon the Iyer...mainly on account of his looks.The Iyengar, it has to be admitted, is generally of an Iranian or european fairness and features. The Iyer has more of a local brand look...indistinguishable from your normal chennai madrasi, with few exceptions.

The Iyengar is often given to reminding people to `never trust a black brahmin`.

The tussle between these two groups is the stuff of legend down south. Nearly everything of note arising from this region (poetry, music, science, noble prizes etc) is from these two species. (Except the wonderful kural I think...which was written by a fisherman or so).

Hope that helps you somewhat.

Ref Urstruly #154

[oops my apologies to all the indian donkeys if they felt insulted by my remarks below. As a matter of Indians did it to a dog and not a donkey.]

Anything to avoid getting raped by an Islamist thug like you.

RefUrstruly #153

[what is an Iyer? Oh god i hope it is not a donkey or something, cuz last year you guys did that to a girl in india.]

It`s my last name and a red rag to Soysauce. At least, it isn`t something like Ali which means `eunuch`. Chew on that for a while.

#151
Wow, such erudition and eloquence not to mention a stupendous comprehension of the written word! You ``answered`` the wrong question boyo! Too bad you are consigned to the back bench as a postdoc rather than be a clinician telling your patients how they have their brains in their balls! Sure you didn`t do your postgraduation in some slum in madras where such language is par for the course?

Only Sikhs used to raise the slogan of Hindu-Sikh unity. Our leaders also did this. Our Hindu brethren held a conference here. They raised slogans of ``Hindu-Hindu Bhai Bhai`` (Hindus are brothers to one another). There was no mention of the Sikh. Some time back, slogans: ``Kachh, Kara, Kirpaan; Ehnoon bhejo Pakistan`` (The shorts, the steel bangle, the sword - symbols of the Sikhs - send these to Pakistan); and ``Dukki tikki khehan nahin deni, sir te pagri rehan nahin deni`` (we are not going to let any second or third group exist, we are not going to let a turban remain on any head) were shouted here. A Hindu shouting these slogans is a patriot but if a son of a Sikh gets up on a stage and says: ``We have to get justice for our (murdered) brothers``, he is a criminal. This is one of the true faces of Indian secularism.

Ref Sudalaikkannu #144

[#141 Dear Sridhar Iyengar,
This was new information to you? You mean you didn`t know that vaishanavism was founded & visishtadhvaitam prpounded mainly in tamil nadu and vaishnavism was spreading like wild fire until the saivaites doused it with some cold theological water centuries ago?]

He thanked me on your behalf for the information which I provided YOU, since you do not have the courtesy to thank anybody who has done you a good turn.

In case you think Vaishnavism is the property of Iyengars only in Tamil Nadu, you forget that Naidus and Mudaliars proudly wore on their foreheads the Vaishnavite srichoornam (naamam to you ignorant idiots) but that was when people weren`t ridiculed for being Hindus. Times were when people were more afraid of God than of a man named Thanthai Periyar whose stormtroopers used to wander around Tamil Nadu attempting to erase religious symbols from people`s foreheads. Try doing THAT in Pakistan, you frikking idiot!

[The resentment of the vaishnavites towards the saivites is so strong that to this day some orthodox vaishnavites would not dine even with saivite brahmins.]

On the other hand, I take pride in the fact that I wouldn`t let YOU into my house, let alone give you water to slake your thirst.

[If you were an orthodox iyengar you wouldn`t go anywhere near harimau iyer, altho it`s good in general to keep away from that rapid, deranged character...]

Yes, my replies are rapid, though I suspect the word you were looking for was `rabid`. Sigh..... such a decline in standards..... this is what happens when the Maasanamuthus and Sudalaimuthus attempt to learn foreign languages such as English, Tamil, Hindi, etc.

This was the first phase of Indian secularism: noble, tolerant, and pro-minority.

Most asinine observation.

First, I do not why the author almost applauds separate civil code for muslims.

Second, Why should anyone be pro-minority? I dont mind tolerating the minorities, but why be pro-minority.

It is these clueless secularists who are responsible for the rise of hindutwadis. I say more power to the hindutwadis just to get rid of those clueless jokers.

oops my apologies to all the indian donkeys if they felt insulted by my remarks below. As a matter of Indians did it to a dog and not a donkey.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000888&channel=chaathouse&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1