Two Phases of Indian Secularism

Dost Mittar saheb,
about Mr and mrs 55,who was in it? I remember a film in which Vyjayanthimala was a child bride but deprived of the great love of her husband and in-laws by her forward mother.She then grows up and falls in love with a man who is really her husband but of course she doesn`t know it. It ends with her giving up her great love and going to her husbands home,where surprise!she finds Biswajit. This film talked about the Sharada Act and the Hindu Code Bill too-do you remember it?

re: hamidm

{................in my experience indian muslims are a lot more religious than their brothers and sisters across the border }


...why don`t you stick to indian hindoos then?...at least they`ll buy you a beer and heeng pakoras...

nazarhayatkhan #76 ``The difference is that in Pakistan, no Politician has the courage to utter the word `Secular``. Not even military or even Jinnah. The Indian constitution states the `Secularism`` as its state policy. ``

I`m sure that, like you, the tens of thousands who suffered in state-sponsored anti-Muslim pogroms in Gujrat are comforted to know that somewhere, in a tatty office in Delhi, under a bundle of papers there lies a dusty dog-eared old document containing the word `secular`.

``For me, that is good enough. What happens inside India is their problem. ``

You know, I think Harimau and stuka are right, you left-wing liberal self-styled humanitarians are the biggest, cold-hearted fascists of the lot.

#84 HisE

Staines acquittal is a very good step forward. Let us hope that it will followed soon by a real trial for the accussed in the Best Bakery case. The Indian Supreme Court has done the right thing. But will the bureaucracy be able to confront the local politicians?

I my heart bled upon reading the tragic assasination of Dr. Sheikh by the intolerants in the Pakistan society.
#84 by HisExcellency on September 15, 2003 10:54pm PT

I am even more convinced now that no logic, arguments, debates can alter the views of these brainwashed mullahs. This intolerence to debate is the only enemy of the modern world. Islam can give wonderful nations to the earth only if it stops being intolerant to debate and other ways of life.

#59 by rsridhar

The Staines verdict is also a step in the right direction. Steps like this will enhance India`s image as a nation of laws, instead of a nation of violent mobs. However, the entire world is watching the Ayodha and Best Bakery cases. That will be the true test because the accused in these cases are either in ruling party themselves or have links to people in the ruling party.

As an aside, I wish somebody in Pakistan would bring the Chief-Editor of Khabrain newspaper to justice. In October 2000, Khabrain launched a smear campaign against Dr. Younis Sheikh and got him arrested on Blasphemy charges. Dr. Younis Shiekh had formed an NGO called ``Enlightenment`` with the collaboration of International Humanist and Ethical Union. Having practiced medicine in UK, he returned to Islamabad to teach at a medical college. He was respected in the college for his humanist views and emphasis on India-Pakistan peace and respect for human rights. At the college, he often posed problems for the Islamic radical groups who used the college for recruiting workers.

It so happened that one day in class, Dr.Sheikh had a heated discussion with a religiously-oriented student about Hellfire (Qayamat). The student was arguing that only Muslims will go to Paradise and all other communities will end up in Hell regardless of their conduct in this world. Dr. Younis Sheikh argued that being a Muslim is not necessary to qualify for Paradise; and that non-Muslims can also enter Paradise if they purify their souls and treat fellow beings kindly.

To support his argument, Dr. Younis Sheikh said that the parents of Prophet Muhammad were technically not Muslims, since they died before he started preaching Islam in Mecca. Nevertheless, they were promised Paradise because of their noble characters.

The student was incensed by this remark and reported it to the Jamaat-e-Islami Student Union president next day. Since these students were already furious at the professor because of his humanist views, they colluded with the local editor of Khabrain newspaper and local Mullahs to teach the doctor a lesson.

An FIR was registered against the doctor and an angry mob surrounded his house.
The Police took Dr.Sheikh in protective custody at Adiyala Jail in Rawalpindi. A date for court hearing was set.

For the next 2 weeks, Khabrain newspaper printed sensational reports against Dr.Sheikh on the front page. The student leaders printed pamphlets denouncing him as a ``Kaafir`` and ``blasphemer`` in the local mosques. The Chief-Editor of Khabrain called him ``Younis Kazaab`` (Younis, The Apostate). All this while, no Khabrain reporter bothered to interview the doctor and print his clarification.

Fearing reprisals lawyers refused to take Dr.Younis Sheikh`s case. When Dr.Shieikh appeared in court for his first hearing, he had no lawyer. Even the judge refused to take the case for fear of Mullahs. A new judge had to be appointed.

On his first hearing, a group of 20 mullahs entered the court room and manhandled Dr.Sheikh. His glasses were broken and he was not allowed to speak to anyone, including the reporters from Dawn, News, Frontier Post and Jang newspapers.

Barrister Abid Hassan Manto (the son of famous writer Saadat Hassan Manto) decided to represent Dr.Younis Sheikh. Since the Mullah could not threaten such an eminent lawyer, they decided some thing had to be done fast. After two hearings, Abid Manto had already blown the prosecution case to shreds. Dr. Younis Sheikh was certain to be exonerated.

Notwithstanding the fact that the matter was already sub judice (i.e. under court hearing), the Khabrain newspaper printed a sensational quote...
Younis Kazzaab Adaalat Mein Seena Taan Ke Rasool Ki Tauheen Karta Raha. (``Younis the Apostate Insulted the Prophet audaciously in the Court Room``). The news item read more like an editorial, than a news report.

The next day, a handgun was smuggled inside the Adiyala Jail to an inmate who was on death row. The mullahs convinced him that since he is going to die anyway, why not die honorably and go to Paradise for avenging the ``blasphemy`` against Prophet.

Dr. Younis Sheikh was shot 34 times at close range in jail. He never made it to the final hearing next day. His family was not allowed to offer his funeral prayer and bury him in the Muslim graveyard. When Abid Hassan Manto held a press conference next day, he had the judge`s unsigned typed-verdict in his hand. The judge had found Dr.Sheikh ``not guilty``.

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2000/326/

[...even if 10 criminals go unpunished, 1 innocent person must never be wrongfully punished.``
Excellent point and one that unfortunately seems to be missed by a lot of people...]

consider this -

letting go of 10 criminals today results in 100 innocents losing their lives a month from now. what should be done when two months from now, those 10 criminals are holed up in a house alongwith 1 innocent person?

I know that you and I don`t like this but this is how I see it. Indian civilization is the real glue that binds India (flag bearer of Indian civilization) and Hindu ethos or Hinduism is the best representation of Indian civilization. same is true on the other side of the border. Islam is the glue that binds diverse nationalities of Pakistan. Here is the shortest history of Pakistan, which most will not agree.

1947-1955................Bureaucracy from ICS + Panjabistan
1955-1958................Bureaucracy + Islam + Panjabistan
1958-1971................Military + Islam + Panjabistan
1971-1977................Authoitarian Democracy + Islam
1977-1989................Military + Islam
1989-1999................Panjabistan + Islam + Military
1999-present............Military + Panjabistan + Islam

The order is: most influential first, least influential last.

Similarly in India too, tho order would invariably include Hinduism as one of the important pillar of the society. I believe (though you and I don`t like it) that both religions add longivity to the nation states of India and Pakistan by strengthening resolve for nationalism and patriotism. Unfortunately it is a give and take situation. The flip side of this brand of nationalism/ patriotism is poverty, injustice, disorderliness, discrimination, obscurantism, illiteracy, poor economy, backwardness etc etc.....although many of the above are more applicable to Islam than Hinduism, perhaps many fold more.

Additionally nationaism/ patriotism is applicabe only when it is needed; it is important aginst nemesis, or when nationhood is threatened. These are useless terms for a villager, who is getting up in the morning and going to his routine of life. In Pakistan too, the bubbling nationalism/ patriotism inspired by Islam is the most useless and counterproductive thing, as we have witnessed during the last 20 years.

An absolute secularism - west European style will greatly weaken the lifespan of nation states of subcontinent as we are seeing happening in Sri Lanka despite having similar admirable constitutional guarantees as in Indian constitution. The political unity of multiculture nationalism has not been even successful in Europe except for Britain and Switzerland where the dominant culture are overwhelmingly large and both countries have been together for very long time. The Czechoslovakia and Yugolslavia are the recent examples. It happened because ethnic nationalism reduced religion factor in nationalism.

So basically in long terms, it is a choice between strong nations on one hand and prosperous people, just societies, freedom and peaceful coexistance on the other for both in India and Pakistan. Both BJP and Islamists had helped increase nationalism in India and Pakistan respectively. Both Islamists and BJP have not helped in making public happy and prosperous. The public service meaning is distorted to serve the glue that bind nations. Prosperity in subcontinent will spell wekening of nation states as it happened before only 56 years ago. The panjabis prosperity contributed to the partition. Now don`t laugh. I mean it and I believe that man of the match award for cricket game between ML and Congress led by Jinnah and Nehru respectively went to Sir Sikander Hayat Khan, posthomously. I can see Mantolives upsetting and twisting over this ``bizarre`` statement. Look again at the table of the history of Pakistan and see thr common denominator of Panjabistan....that is the gift of the man of match to his constiuents.

Our friend Dost mitter is an expert in PTV brand of historiography by painting the history of Indian secularism in terms of the riots sparked by the muslim and hindu extremist fringes of Indian society. I do not have much time at hand to provide the ``correct`` historiography, however, I would like to touch upon the issue of secularism to clarify what I am trying to assert.

First, What is secularism:
``The term ``secularism`` appears to have been first used in English toward the middle of the nineteenth century, with a primary ideological meaning. As first used, it denoted the doctrine that morality should be based on rational considerations regarding human well-being in this world, to the exclusion of considerations relating to God or the afterlife. Later it was used more generally for the belief that public institutions, especially general education, should be secular not religious. In the twentieth century it has aquired a somewhat wider range of meaning, derived from the older and wider connotations of the term ``secular.`` In particular it is frequently used, along with ``separation,`` as an approximate equivalent of the French term laicisme, also used in other languages, but not as yet in English.``

So, secularism in Indian context is about separating the Indian Public Institutions from being governed by any religious books, religious heads or persons. Indian Secularism is about removing the Ummah/Jammat/Dharma Sansad/Church from determining the state`s policies regarding how the people are going to be governed- something which PAkistan can never even think of attempting because they stupidly put religion as the ``foundation`` of their State. So, what is it that our friend Dost mittar is talking about when he goes on to give a false (almost PTV version)historiography of Indian Secularism? Indian Constitution? Indian Public Policies? Indian Acts, Rules and Regulations? Not at all!!! No, he is talking about riots sparked by these extremist religious organisations who are actually in the fringes of public life.
He is just affirming the same stereotypes that he thinks he is trying to demolish.
I again refer to my earlier post at #810 which dost mitter has chosen to ignore:

``Secularism creates the ``political space`` for discussion of non-religious(secular) issues like poverty, hunger, famines, rain water harvestation, import tariffs, agricultural subsidies, corruption- which none of the Islamist would like us to discuss without referring it to them.
Secularism completely dis-empowers these mulaahs , and takes away the grounds for their intervention in such ``non-secular`` issues.``

So much for our friend`s masterpiece!

#66 by shah. on September 15, 2003 5:54pm PT
re #58 stuka

none arrested for the subsequent killings?
No arrests maybe a bit of an exxageration. According to a TOI (which has a known `secular` bias) report -

Besides, of the total substantive arrests made by the police, 9,954 are Hindus and 4,035 Muslims.
However, in the preventive arrests column, the statistics show that the number of Hindus arrested is much higher — 17,947 as against 3,616 Muslims.
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Also of the 726 official deaths reported in the riots 552 were muslims and 168 Hindus.
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?art_ID=828355

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#66
Muslims are harder to kill without being KILLED a fact for which 10% of minority bet on there surviavibility come what may hindutva or sena ........


``17,947 as against 3,616 Muslims``ARRESTED!?????

So in a typical town of Ramgarh there would be that proportion of Hindu to Muslim roughly ..


And most of of BOTH communities were detained akin to Patriot act here for home Land Security or protection of citizens ???????

But After the fact no matter WHAT IS DONE is Meaningless

......even 870 billion $$ practically speaking on secular ,IRAQI connection to Jehadi Al Qeida CONNECTION is.............. close to gambling or may be safe bet for Cheney /Bush Republicans AT best!!!!

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re:#64 by pmishra2
I must confess that i have only read his ``Train to Pakistan`` and articles that he wrote now and then in some magazines. I am not doubting his scholarship during younger days. He is very old today and he may not be totally in touch with the prevalent situation. No one denies that secularism in India is being challenged but to say that India will not survive is far-fetched.
Sridhar

dost-mittar,

``Your analysis may be correct about Pakistan or other Muslim countries but not about India``............ so the leopards at the delhi zoo have pink spots and are strict vegetarians ?............

................in my experience indian muslims are a lot more religious than their brothers and sisters across the border .......... as a matter of fact they tend to be quite critical of the ``liberal`` paki muslims and never tire of telling us how ungrateful we are, and how we are squandering away the opportunity to live like ``real`` muslims ............ i find it hard to believe that these muslims will willingly accept to live under a common civil law when the rest of the ummah is finally getting around to implementing the shariah ............ it will happen only when the rest of the islamic world gives up on this nonsense - and that will take at least a couple of generations ............

re:#65 by HisExcellency
I was trying to say that there is govt patronage to the lower castes (much to the detriment of upper castes) and there is nothing to stop them from coming up in life if they want to. Having said that, i also do realise that the friction between Dalits and the rest in various states is a constant feature, sometimes leading to violence. It will take many more years for things to change and Dalit to really enjoy the fruits of affirmative action.
Sridhar

re:#58 by stuka
Well, i do see the truth but people who criticise India seem to forget much wrong in their own backyard. No one says India is perfect. But its people and media are aware of the problem. And, people are the best judge. Let us not forget that the same people who humbled Indira Gandhi post-emergency can also teach Modi a lesson.
Sridhar

Ref meen-kari-kuzhambu aka soysauce #21

[The hindutva crowd has decided to unite hindus under a single ideology and a single deity (Ram, who hardly evokes any loyalty south of the vindhyas).]

You are absolutely correct, particularly with reference to Tamil Nadu where you raise temples to movie actresses and the fatter the better.

[On my recent trip, I saw a resurgent, aggressive form of hinduism, where public display of religious sentiments (during vinayak chaturthi, for example) is on the rise. If I belonged to a minority religion (I suppose as an atheist I do) I`d be very anxious during these times.]

As an atheist, and a follower of Thanthai Periyar (Father Big Man, he seems to have no given name in Tamil Nadu, do you know of any?), you would be free to take around in procession idols of Ganesha with a garland of chappals. As you all used to do under the Congress government in the 1950s. It is the claimants to Father Big Man`s political ideology who are currently in power in Tamil Nadu who would probably prevent you from doing so for harming public order. And it is Doctor Artist Leader The Fund of Compassion, another self=proclaimed atheist, who recently denounced the banning of animal sacrifices at Hindu temples; of course people of your ilk need to pacify the Goddess of Small Pox by sacrificing goats and chickens, despite the medical education that small pox is caused by a virus that idiots like you have received at state-funded medical colleges. I am wondering if you are suggesting animal sacrifices to Lord Jesus Christ in the USA. Or have you suggested the building of temples to Small Pox, AIDS, Malaria, etc.?