Two Phases of Indian Secularism

Ref dionysus #6

Hey Doofus, did you find a single article anywhere that talked about the burning of the train full of Hindu pilgrims at Godhra and how that spelled the end of secularism in India?

I don`t think so.

Secularism is safe in India when Islamist thugs are free to kill Hindus. Excuuuuuse me if I don`t buy into that bullsh!t.

dost-mittar,

......... the one thing you are forgetting is that there is NO separation of mosque and state in islam............ ALL muslim countries with the exception of turkey (for the time being) accept gabriel`s gift as the basis of their laws - including malaysia ............ so if a billion muslims are being governed by allah subha wu taal`s law, do you think it is possible that indian muslims will accept anything less ???............why should they risk eternal damnation just so that india can have secularism, pluralism, democracy and all that other infidel inspired nonsense ......... sorry, it just won`t happen........... the only way india can have a truly secular state is if they can get parliament fo rewrite half the verses in the koran, revise all the silly hadiths, and ban sharia .................. the other option is to push the 150 million nay-sayers into bihar or hyderabad and let them establish yet another fiefdom for god ...............malaysia is about as good as it gets in the muslim world ...... maybe india can learn from them and rewrite its constitution to declare hinduism as the official state religion - in the long run it will be better for all ........... here is a starter:



Art. 3(1) declares Islam official state religion and guarantees religious freedom. Arts. 3(3) & (5) Rulers of States declared heads of religion of Islam by State Constitutions; in absence of Muslim rulers (States of Malacca, Penang, Sabah and Sarawak) or in Federal Territories (Kuala Lumpur and Labuan) Yang di-Pertuan Agong (Head of State) is declared head of religion of Islam.

Ninth Schedule outlines legislative lists. Civil law (and family law as subset of civil law) come under federal legislature’s jurisdiction; however, persons of Malay race are defined as Muslims under Constitution and States empowered to make personal laws governing Muslims and laws relating to religious offences, and establish and regulate syariah courts for application of Islamic law. Family law relating to non-Muslims is in federal jurisdiction. Each State has Majlis (Council of Religion and Malay Custom) issuing fatawa generally in keeping with Shafi’i tenets except where such may conflict with public interest. Councils, with approval of State authorities, may follow minority Shafi’i views or interpretations from other three major Sunni madhahib.

Nazar Hayat Khan,

I believe continuing trouble in India will only discredit Pakistan because Pakistan was presented as a constitutional solution to India`s communal problem. If there is a continuation of the communal problem it means that the surgical solution didn`t solve the problems of South Asia.

-YLH

The ugly face is not that of secularism. Hindu assertivism, as the flip side of hindu victimhood is what`s leading to pogroms on muslims. As the society is pulled in different directions with changing times and modernization, the amorphousness of hinduism (its real strength, IMO) is seen as its weakness. The hindutva crowd has decided to unite hindus under a single ideology and a single deity (Ram, who hardly evokes any loyalty south of the vindhyas). Part of the strategy to unite is to identify a common enemy, posit a common shared history with a continuous civilization from the beginning of time. All this is a lie of course but has played well partly because hindus have always harbored a suspicion of the musalman as an enemy agent. The enemy is not necessarily pakistan, it could be simply a foreign ideology.
What you (and uppercaste hindus) enumerate as perceived bias against hinduism are really a case of bias against uppercaste hindus. Temple endowments were treated as private wealth. (I must admit that government dabbling hasn`t been a uniform success, owing to political parties gaining control over temple funds). Now they are used for the benefit of temples. Hindus were lucky that some of the godawful practices within the religion got reformed by government fiat. Being the majority, they naturally deserved immediate attention in this regard. In a way, the government favored the hindus by making them the object of reform first.
On my recent trip, I saw a resurgent, aggressive form of hinduism, where public display of religious sentiments (during vinayak chaturthi, for example) is on the rise. If I belonged to a minority religion (I suppose as an atheist I do) I`d be very anxious during these times.

Good article Dost-mittar.
Hope someday Indians take the land of the law hihger than any religion of the world in matters of governance. It looks utopian right now. I support UCC for this very reason.

Dionysus,
Thanks for providing a very graphic narration of the killings in gujarat. Not until these murderers and their brothers in 84 riots are brought to justice, will people hold the law in respect. The same goes for the perpetrators of terrorism in Punjab, kashmir and NE. They should all pay for killings.

I guess, faith in violence to resolve differences should not be tolerated in a society.

Saminshah,

You clap with two hands. For a long time before this century, the second hand was missing. Now it looks to be maturing slowly to complement the other.

Adios

Manto # 19

Thanks. I was keeping my fingers crossed for a much harsher reaction.

is it me or is it a coincidence that we are seeing the appearence of lot of new anti-muslim anti-pakistan posters whose last name ends in khan and whose first name does not make any sense at all? and by a strange twist of fate, i belong to another indo-pak discussion group whose board was hijacked by someone whose last name was also khan and who also spent his time cutting and pasting anti-islam and anti-pakistan post. that was until we asked to speak at one of our discussion sessions and we never heard from him again.

chowk staff:

this really is getting to be a pain. cant you guys think of something which will move discussion beyond islam and pakistan army.

I never understood what really the ideology of political hiunduism is? I am 100% sure that it can`t be Muslim centric only. I suspect that there is more to it. What does Ram Raj mean?How do the hindu nationalists propose to amend constitution to accomodate hindu law and societal values. And why Muslims are considered, by default, the opponents of any such potential changes.

What really irks me is that the 95% of the hindu interlocutors at chowk tow the hindu nationalist agenda but when inquired they hide behind secularism (5% are here only for the reason that they hate Muslims & Paksitanis to the core of their bones and get paid for it). I dont understand why they are so evasive if they really beleive in their cause. I dont buy this bullshit that dost mitter has written, which is an attempt to tone down the real issue anyway (though I dont know what issue but I know there is one). I want some clear answers to my questions. I would be really obliged if someone please direct me to a source where I can look for some clues into my querries.

``A middle ground must be found between the two extremes. Any attempts to bludgeon a large minority of Muslims, Dalits and Christians will only result in the ``end of India`` as Khushwant Singh succintly put. ``

A middle ground is exactly what we need. That middle ground is the elimination of religion from political life, and a focus on economic development.

``#13 by HisExcellency on September 15, 2003 7:28am PT
Very well written, dost-mittar.

The pendulum has indeed swung in India from tolerant secularism to anti-Muslim Hindu fundamentalism. The former had its flaws, but the latter is outright demonic. A middle ground must be found between the two extremes.``..

Sirjee leave us us alone. The formal had flaws eh?

The later is NOT out right demonic. I hope it was. No. It has a meaning. Enough is enough. That is the message. And no, we do not need you to tell us about the middle ground. You have none. I know for 100% sure you will see to it that we will not be left alone. AK-47, Kargil, Gibratal... blah blah blah...

There still would be time or us. We have it. We always will had it. You know what ..in India we always will make it possible. We do not lick shoes of any Tom Dick or Harry... even if he is a dictator.

And yes. I deal with N number of muslims day and day out. Problem never was that. You had, have, and will to choose to de-mean my Saminshah. Keep that in country of pures will ya?

Could you please reply Saminshah?. Your abcdefg on adoption. Your meaning of lust. Run away as Romair did ... This is not Hindu/Muslim problem for us, unlike you guys (Your women have no choice any ways. Send them to NWFP or ...). You simply run away when uncomfortable.

Yogiraj Patil


#8 by saminshah``

India, now simply do not have answer what you ask Dost-mitter. You never asked the questions to me. But still..... All I can say is the most hollow word you will ever get from the laziest Hindoo bum on the earth, and the most shallowest. ``I am sorry``.

If at all you think I should, I will start answering those questions you asked. Very slowly. Very very slowly. Only thing you will have to accept. Hinduism like any other religion had a very nasty past. I have no problem admitting what is was. Or what it is now.

Dost-Mitter

Great job Dost. Great job.

We have created the problem. We will have it sort it out. Last thing I will accept from any Indian, present or future is either this is not an issue or whinning. Lets us be positive. What we need to do from now onwards is what we need to work on. No whinning from any Indian on ..... Umreeka, Pakistan, Islam, press, CNN, Babar, Auranzeb etc.etc. is acceptable as a solution is acceptable.

I AM VERY HOPEFULL.

Yogiraj



Let us start working out the solutions. Do you agree?


Thank you

harimau #16 ``Hey Doofus, did you find a single article anywhere that talked about the burning of the train full of Hindu pilgrims at Godhra and how that spelled the end of secularism in India? ``

The murder of innocent Hindus is just as deplorable an act as the murder of innocent Muslims and the article does, in fact, mention the atrocity at Godhra. However, you are overlooking two very important differences. Firstly, the sheer scale of the atrocities against Muslims in Gujrat:2000 dead & 150 000 made homeless. And secondly, the fact that the BJP government was complicit in them - making them state-sponsored pogroms.

Secularism in India is dead and India is on the road to Nazism. The whole world can see that. You still have a very impressive man at the helm, Vajpayee, but the scary thought is, who will follow him?

``You still have a very impressive man at the helm, Vajpayee, but the scary thought is, who will follow him? ``

Does it matter? We don`t have a presidential system. And in a parliamentary system, a government with many coalition partners can only exist with a consensual agenda.

There is no comparison between the burning of the trains and the subsequent retaliation. While you have equated Harimau and I as ``honest fascists`` there is a significant difference. I do not have the Praveen Togadia complex of thinking myself to be the sole defender of Hinduism a la Harimau. As far as giving up inch of land on Kkashmir is concerned, please feel free to call me a fascist, it is indeed my pleasure to be known as one.

#13 by Your excellency

``attempts to bludgeon a large minority of Muslims, Dalits and Christians will only result in the ``end of India`` as Khushwant Singh succintly put. ``

As a Dalit and as a winner who does not believe in self-pity `ing, self-ghettoizing losers attitude ( some Dalits and most muslims ), I can tell you that your dream ( ``end of India`` )is a pipe dream just like the popular dream of ``Islamic ummah``.

nazarhayatkhan #17

Dear nazarhayat khan,
Have you heard Carl Sagan`s story about the man who claimed there was a fire-breathing dragon living in his garage? His incredulous friends asked him to prove it by showing it to them. He took them to his garage, and guess what, no dragon. ``Where`s the dragon?``, they asked. ``Oh she`s right here, but I forgot to mention, she`s invisible``. So they suggest spreading the floor of the garage with flour so they can see her footprints. ``Good idea``, he says, ``but she floats in mid-air``. His friends then suggest using an infra red detector. ``She`s heatless as well``. Then we`ll spray her with paint. `Oh she`s incorporeal and paint won`t stick on her``.

The question is, what`s the difference between an incorporeal, invisible, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and NO DRAGON AT ALL? What does it take to convince this man that his dragon doesn`t exist?

So dear nazar, after the the election-winning anti-Muslim Gujrat pogroms, the anti-Sikh pogroms, the brutalization of Kashmir in the name of Hinduism, the election of Hindu religious fanatics to power by the good people of India, and a whole lot more, what will it take to prove to you that secularism in India doesn`t exist? Or are you going to hold on to this fanciful notion as if your life depended upon it, no matter what?

Just when you thought it was safe to go into the water……another article on secularism and religion. Chowk is really starting to turn into a one-theme site. First it was India vs. Pakistan articles. Now it is religion and secularism. There are other issues in the world, and other problems and solutions.

India is (was) a super-secular state. With a secular this and a secular that. If secularism is (was) the key to everything, then India should have left Pakistan a hundred years behind. Yet it struggles along at the same levels. Even more, its population has actually become fed-up with secularism and has now gone willingly and democratically, to becoming one of the most non-secular states in the world.

Pakistan is (was) a super-religious state. With religious this and religious that. If religion is (was) the key to everything, then Pakistan should have left India a hundred years behind. Yet it struggles along at the same levels. Even more, its population has actually become fed-up with religionism and the country is now trying to become more secular.

Twenty years from now, the two countries may well end up swapping systems. With Pakistan becoming the super-secular state and India becoming the super-religious state. Then they will have reached where the other was. Yet, I can make a bet, both will still be equally backwards, if they both don’t sort our their real-world issues of their respective societies. Even if Pakistan declares itself the Super Secular/Even Athiest Republic of Pakistan, the SSP will still be killing Shias, until the feudal system of Jhang isn’t changed. And even if India declares itself Hinduvtaistan, it will still face the same issues with Muslims, it faces today, until the Indian Muslims aren’t provided massive affirmative action in education.

Maybe, instead of blaming everything on the BJP for winning democratic elections, our secular Nehruites should try to figure out, why the BJP has been able to defeat them again and again. One cannot just blame the BJP for its yatras. They are only doing what the population wants. One cannot even blame them solely for the Gujrat incidence. They only provided a vehicle through which the population expressed itself.

And overtly looking after a minority group in a country, is nothing unusual. It is actually a sign of progress. Americans give all kinds of benefits to African-Americans, far and above, what is given to whites. Yet one does not see a Yatra against the Blacks by the Whites. Nowdays, Christians in Pakistan are more enfranchised than Muslims. Christians can elect a Christain candidate and a joint-candidate. But one doesn’t see a yatra against them.

So maybe, the rise of BJP is due more to the fact that there is no legitimate humane force to counter them. Maybe, the Nehruites aren’t all that they make themselves out to be, and deep down inside, share far too much with the BJP. Maybe, secularism has inhumane faces also, and thus cannot counter the BJP, just by itself.

Maybe, just maybe, religionising or secularising a country doesn’t hold the answer. Maybe the answers lie somewhere else. After all, neither has done much for Pakistan or India, respectively. If the history of Pakistan and India and their experiments with secularism and religionism hasn’t proved this, then I am not sure what else will.

To sum it up, the problem expressed in this article, definitely needs to be discussed. But people should start looking at it from angles other than secularism and religion. I think the actual problem has more to do with the Indians (both BJP and Nehruites) approach to the creation of Pakistan, and the current relationship India has with Pakistan. As long as India`s relationship with Pakistan doesn`t improve greatly, the BJP will always be able to defeat the Nehruites.

nazarhayatkhan,

Well then good you were pleasantly surprised... You were keeping your fingers crossed for a much harsher reaction because you have neither attempted to understand my point of view nor have you bothered to read my posts... My objection to you is neither your willingness to question the official discourse nor your secularism (both are my own things)... my objection is to your over simplification and your tendency to work `history` out in your head. This is all sadly PAF training.

Had you taken my advice and read the Cambridge point of view especially Ayesha Jalal, you would have probably arrived at a point where you would neither be a slave to the official Pakistani histiography which is sham, nor would your position be an abject surrender to rightwing Indian Hatemongering. Instead you would be in a far more balanced place when talking of history, and wouldn`t make such sweeping generalizations as you have the tendency to.


Anyway I am glad we are more cordial terms today... lets see how long this lasts... the Military mind isn`t my favorite you know...

-YLH