Fading Exclamations

Nazarhayatkhan # 24,

``Islam in its first 1300 years was quite open, accommodative, liberal and all encompassing.``

I think you are forgetting the spread of islam in persia, india etc were all done by sword. Zoroastrianism was wiped out of persia and hindus ,buddhists converted by sword to islam.

Thankfully, unlike the jews, parsis do not claim persia as their holy land and themselves as chosen people, otherwise we would have had another ``holy war/ second coming issue``.

Adios

temporal,

......... i accept your explanation with great relief (phew!) and welcome you back to the community of white hats ......... for a moment i was worried you might be getting dangerously close to the planet urstruly lives on!

warning: yes another long post

hamidm2

…hallelujah!…is this hamidm of old or a fire-breathing dragon?…what have i done bhai?…astgfhafirullah!…five posts within a span of some 23 posts!…must have struck a chord to ignite this kind of quickfire responses from my fellow curmudgeon;)…the only redeeming feature i detect is that the intensity of cluster bombing gives way to random machine-gun fire from #5 to the last one #23…

…ok let me be serious now…

............. please tell me you ran into some bad whiskey!.......... this is killing me .........
…the only brew tolerated before noon in office is tea or coffee…in my case doodh-patti first and then green tea…sorry to disappoint you…

..... ya allah, forgive temporal, he knows not what he does..............jesus, bhagwan, jay............ anyone! ……i am beginning to loose faith in single malt whiskey and the goodness of man ! .....
...Amen! may He forgive me if He pauses from whatever is engaging His attention:)…invoking jesus and bhaghwan’s help to bring up your rightr flank is bad enough…why bring jay from the left flank?…so much force on one minor poet?….not fair, i say, not fair!...you will force me to go into cyber-theraphy (alia you reading this:))

...he has unleashed the devil that forced you to subscribe to the crazy conspiaracy (sic) theories as a knee-jerk reaction ....
...you call this conspitracy theory? Or knee jerk reaction?
Recruited, nudged or motivated to do the US bidding in Russian occupied Afghanistan. His backers a motley crowd: the Saudis, CIA, FBI, the wily Zia through infamous ISI… Osama could have been a pawn in the hands of others then. …He proved out to be shrewd and calculating. At some point he may have turned around and started using his contacts for his new goals. History is replete with such figures. MQM’s Altaf Hussain, another ISI creation comes immediately to mind. There are others. Once out of Pandora’s box the puppets assume a life of their own.

... i re-read your article again in the hope that i had missed something that would exonerate you from the charge that you are yet another apologist for the ummah that refuses to take responsibility for its actions
…now you are irritating me a tad…who is me?…why should this insignificant minor poet apologize for an imaginary group you call ummah…specially when am careful to consider both perspectives (on OBL) and give out my own views at the same time…in the article and here in the interacts?

in this quote ``Whether it was ordained or planned they quickly capitalized on it, manufactured consent and sold the brand name Al Qaeda``....the word highlighted indicates that they (the US) capitalized on 9/11 to brand Al Qaeda and by implication most Muslims as terrorists…am not blaming USAF to run into the twin towers…heck through this branding…ayatollah ashcroft can pick you or me up at will…and accuse us of being part of al qaeda…merlot or single malt aside the onus will be on us to prove our innocence… “yes sir, I visited the Medina/Mecca Musjid in December 1985 and donated a tenner…and sir, how was I to know that it will end in the coffers of the blind cleric on the west bank?”…and languish in solitary for up to 90 days…

... best wishes and hope you get well soon ....
thank you...am well...just a few more posts to answer than i can call it a day...

rgds,

t

Sameer, #11

“I totally disagree with...godot about the possibility of Osama, the bi*tch expediting reformation inadvertantly.”

Only a die-hard faithful would disagree that, hitherto, Islamic Civilization had been in a continuous decline for centuries and was in a state of morass and decadence, that inquiry and introspection was ruthlessly suppressed, that the Koran, in complete disregard to what’s written in it, was an object of worship and not subject to question the words it contained. Only a blinded faithful would disagree that Islam has become nauseatingly intrusive to Muslims’ everyday life, and that the rituals of daily praying and reciting the Koran in a language the reader does not even understand is completely devoid of any spirituality whatsoever.

Yes, thanks to the repulsive and ruthless ignorance of Osama, but fortunately for Islam, all that has changed. The Koran has been scrutinized as never before, the Prophet’s life and his acts debated openly, and the sacred tenets of Islam questioned. The books on Islam the publishing houses, at least in the West, spewing out by dozens almosy daily are not all flattering to Islam. Only a die-hard and blinded unfaithful would deny that it is not progress.

The seismic shift that occurs deep under the ocean is not immediately felt or seen on the surface of the ocean. The deep changes that are brought to group-thinking and attitude are initiated by only a handful, the ordinary masses are not indicative of the profound changes that may be taking place within. These psychological changes take effect at a mass level and are visible only after a long time; there is a lag time spanning several generations.

Just as you cite your example as someone who has contemptuously turned away from Islam, let me give you my example. The local masjid, here in the US where I live, has allowed me to hold 8 classes in the masjid with the college-bound boys and girls to discuss “current affairs” dealing with Islam. I will select the material the students will read and will direct the discussions. This will allow me to force on the young minds questions about Islam, not all of them may be comforting. Yes, if it weren’t for Osama, neither I would have considered doing this, nor the masjid would have allowed me to do so. Is this not progress?

re: Temporal

``The timocracies and democracies of the west joined with tin pot autocracies...``

*smirk*

Ciao

Yes T, it is I of the old. Thank you for your welcome earlier.
Obviously neither you nor any other sane person would say that 9-11 was ``a good thing`` ( I hope Martha doesn`t see a patent violation), however, if from it`s ashes rises a muslim protestant movement, then something good would come out of this indefensible act.
Many muslims are finding themselves returning to the original text without the pre-packaged interpretation(tafseer) by the clergy. One of the advantages of the intense scrutiny by the outsiders is that the insiders have to question every thing, and reject what they can not ethically defend.
More important than who did it (which will probably become evident 20+ years from now as documents get de classified) is that islamic practice as we know it now will change remarkably as a direct result of this event, and the events that follow it. If the change comes from within, it will be renaissance. If however the change from within doesn`t happen, there will be widespread mayhem. Muslim ummhah as it exists today is incapable of long term survival.

tahmedsaab
the people who died in the twin towers were not heroes by any stretch of any, any imagination.. with all due respect, thats a bullshit way of putting it.. they were victims- no more, no less.. im quite sure if they knew they were going to be blown to bits, none of them heroes would be heroic enough to come to work that entire month... calling them heroes is as bad as saying the shi`te ayotollah who got blown to bits in najaf, was shaheed... im sure he too if aware of the fact that he was about to be exploded, would have taken a rain check on that particular juma khutba...lets please do away with all this flowery hero shero shaheed martyr business.. wrong place, wrong time...key word? victim

regards

temporal #21 you write ``to make a point…that this singular event has forced the muslims in a corner and perhaps now they have no choice but re-examine the core of their beliefs… ``

I dont see that point coming through in the article. The point the article tries to make is clearly to exonerate bin laden, by making the preposterous assertion that the US fooled him into attacking New York. You should either reject this point of the article (presumably written when you were having an ``unthinking moment``), or else explain why you make this point. You cant say that the article does not say what it clearly say.

you write ``...personally Osama is an anathema to me, but it cannot be denied that he is also an enigma and a hero to millions of people, naïve Muslims included as a symbol of defiance to the US government policies… ``

Again, from your article it would seem that you are one of those ``naive Muslims`` yourself. If he really is anathema to you, shouldnt you be educating these ``naive muslims`` you refer to by explaining why bin laden is anthema to you? (we have a few of these ``naive muslims`` on chowk, as you may have noticed.) Your article simply glorifies this man who, together with his father-in-law (or was it son-in-law) mullah omar converted afghanistan into a terrorist nest, causing millions of afghans to become refugees in neighboring countries?

you write ``i felt no need to condemn the dastardly, cowardly and unislamic deed perpetrated by osama and his misguided cohorts yet again... ``

Unfortunately, there is a need to condemn the ``dastardly, cowardly and unislamic deed`` of this bas!tard. There are, as you notice, enough fools around in the muslim world and in Pakistan (as hamidm notes per his recent visit). Anyway - ``der ayay, durust ayay`` - I am glad you point out that 9/11 was an unislamic deed. Also an inhuman deed, I may add (``pehlay insaan, phir musulmaan``, to use your own words). Attacking air hostesses with knives, taking planes full of passengers and ramming them into buildings full of people is the work of a satanic cult, not of a muslim. And there is no excuse for it.

you write ``…name an event in the past or recent past that has thus mobilized the silent majority of Muslims…"

Unfortunately, 9/11 has mobilized nothing among muslims. There has been no backlash against the islamic extremism in muslim societies. The taliban are out of afghanistan due to US military action, not due to a popular uprising. Mullahs in pakistan have gained ground, and pakistan is in real danger of coming completely under the heel of the mullah with the help of the military. The only thing positive about 9/11 is that it goaded the US into taking on the war against terrorism: a war in which the mullahs had obtained a toehold in afghanistan and were targetting pakistan next. (I had written an article to chowk BEFORE 9/11 predicting that civil war was coming in pakistan - based on a visit I had made to pakistan at the time, and seen for myself how bold the mullahs had become in Pakistan. For some reason chowk never printed that article).

Finally``ps: yaar aajkal itnay ghussay main kyuN ho?…aik aur board per bhee aap ghussa jhaR rahay hain;)… ``

I am sorry if I seem upset, but i hope you will understand why it is important to be clear on these matters. We pakistanis must fight this cancer in our midst if we are to hope for a brighter future for our long-suffering people.

t:

You`ve disappointed. Did Stalin make people take a deep hard look at Communism? Maybe it did. But did that stop Communism from imploding?

There will be no Islamic resurgence and salvation. The die has been cast.

later
-sac

Temporal,

You think osama has forced muslims to think about their faith? I don`t think it will happen so easily. It took the christians thousand years to go through the crap, to finally emerge from the shadows of the church. The process in islam has not yet started. Except for salman rushdie no other muslim has dared to express himself/herself freely.
Don`t worry about millitary industrial complex and their shinnanigans. Only the weak get affected by such people. And yes groups like these have existed throughout history to exploit anyone gullible enough. Once upon a time imperialism, exploited the weaker nations too. The process continues under different labels in different regions.
Adios

t

This article may not be characterized as one of your best * but it certainly has resonated and strum some very uneasy chords. Even at a time right after 9/11, it was a no brainer to realize the potential for the emergence of a new phenomenon which I termed as Osama-ism in my article ``The Clash of Uncivilizations and Osama-ism``.

If you look at the big picture nothing could be as clear as it is now. The situation translates only into one note that in a future globalized world i.e. in the global village, Muslim has refused to accept the position of an underdog. The world is rapidly turning into a village and with technology and free information we can literally see into each other`s courtyard. What people see, is a world that is so unjust so cruel that it is hard for them to keep their mouths shut. They see one part of the world where even dogs have health insurance and on the other hand they see people burying their loved ones because they couldn`t provide them one square meal a day. Now those days are numbered when mouths of the dispossessed people could be kept shut with occasional aid, brutal bureaucracy, coercive dictatorships, wars, and acute violence. A nation or a group of nation can still impose these injustices on other societies and nations but now it is not with impunity – not anymore. Now a nation cannot do all the injustices to the others and ride the moral high horse at the same time. Everything has become transparent now.

Whether an egalitarian and just world emerges after this change or it becomes more intolerant and oppressive is unclear yet. Whether man would able to craft a just social contract in a globalised world or not is yet to be seen. Whether 9/11 had happened or not, and whether a man named Osama came into world picture or not the process to craft this social contract would have started anyway. Osama did not trigger this process, however, he sure provided the catalyst that has accelerated the process. Whether he was involved in the events of 9/11 or not, the point has become moot.

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*PS: Your best or I could say without dobt that the Chowk`s best so far is The Real Jihad.

t-saab,

There`s nothing new in the ideas that Osama was a creation of the CIA, that he might not even have been responsbie for 9/11, that Bush sexily marketed Al Qaeda as a pretext to get to Afghani and Iraqi oil

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these have been floating around since the day those two towers disappeared in a puff of smoke and aviation fuel.

What IS scary is you proclaiming that Osama is the true hero who has made many Muslims re-examine their faith. I ask you, is their faith so ridiculously unbending that a devil incarnate has to come along to shake it? Can no Muslim think for himself and decide what is right and acceptable given the times we live in? Does it take hatred and derision from Uncle Sam to finally accept that something has gone wrong somewhere/

And I tend to agree with hamidm, Osama hasn`t shamed as many Muslims into questioning their faith as it has brought out the psychos from out of the woodwork, comfortable in the knowledge that their madness and fanaticism are shared by the many. As much as I hate Bush for his ignorant buffoonery, I hate Osama and his ilk even more for what they`ve made this world

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a frightening, dangerous place where suspicion and discrimination are accepted means of survival.

blame it on the CIA, blame it on the Russians, blame it on Napolean for all I care

---

accept that 9/11 was a trigger for events that have changed life for most of us forever. I blame Osama. So sue me.

``Osama could have been duped to strike at the twin towers``

....... who duped him?.........the cia?.... the jews? .............. lord, deliver us from this ignorance!............ jesus! ............crap like this is making me turn religious!

``Whether it was ordained or planned they quickly capitalized on it, manufactured consent and sold the brand name Al Qaeda``.............. so the neo-cons led by cheney and kristol planned to fly planes into tall buildings and then came up with the brand name? ..............how ridiculous can you get !.............. this is quite insane!

..... temporal, temporal, temporal ................ get a grip on yourself (or give me some of the stuff that you are smoking)!

temporal,

``i chose to see and focus on a positive in the fallout of this event thrust upon unsuspecting Muslims worldwide by a misguided and loathsome Osama``

........ of course you did that, but after you had lost all credibility by bringing up silly conspiracy theories that sounded like you were desperate to find some justification for this horrible act............the overall tone of your article was not too positive .......... i will assume that you were too lazy to proof read and edit ..............

adding to my post # 17

This fanatic truncated Islam is a gift from the Saudi Arabia only in last 100 years - spawned through the spread of Wahabi/Salafi thought.

Islam in its first 1300 years was quite open, accommodative, liberal and all encompassing. There may have been some odd crazy nuts but no such talabanic-style organized school of thought.

The way forward is to treat all hate-preachers as criminals of the society.

long post

tahmed32

...you write, It is sad that on this day, the second anniversary of the 9/11 you chose to write not about any of the real heroes of 9/11 - the over three thousand men and women who were killed that day, the over 300 firemen and 70 policemen who lay down their lives while trying to save the lives of others.

and in post # 10 you further write If you want a ``true muslim hero`` here is one a 23 year old Pakistani hero…

and further on you…. could write such a stupid article. Not only stupid, but insulting to the memory of those who were killed that day. I think you need to get your moral compass fixed..
in this article i have written:

“Only morons support murder and mayhem. Almost everyone is against violence. (My personal abhorrence against any violence is a matter of record.) And Al Qaeda is terror incarnate.”

I thought I need not elaborate my oft repeated stance there…but just in case you missed it…here is paste from a recent board:

On Suicide Bombings
...there is...there was...there can be no justification...

reminds of what have said many times earlier:

...there can be no justification of any deliberate violent act against civilians...none whatsoever...be they by individuals, organizations or states...

...yes i could have chosen to praise the valour of those who died, the courage of rescue workers, the cowardliness of the hijackers…i could have chosen to view and express my opinion from any number of these vantage points…and i did make a choice…to make a point…that this singular event has forced the muslims in a corner and perhaps now they have no choice but re-examine the core of their beliefs…

you go on to say Yet, you chose to make a hero out of that bast!ard Bin Laden.

...personally Osama is an anathema to me, but it cannot be denied that he is also an enigma and a hero to millions of people, naïve Muslims included as a symbol of defiance to the US government policies…

...on the twin tower attack i mentioned my ambivalent thinking in these words: “ Osama could have been duped to strike at the twin towers. Or he could have initiated the terror attacks on his own. Am ambivalent and skeptical. History serves masters only.” ...i felt no need to condemn the dastardly, cowardly and unislamic deed perpetrated by osama and his misguided cohorts yet again...

…to reiterate…i chose to see and focus on a positive in the fallout of this event thrust upon unsuspecting Muslims worldwide by a misguided and loathsome Osama…the Muslims can continue to look backwards and regress or re-group and think of the future…they can stick to the pseudo-mullah’s line or question and re-interpret their religion for the present and the future…

…name an event in the past or recent past that has thus mobilized the silent majority of Muslims…of course it can be argued that they have no choice now…so be it…resurge…with the conviction of live and let live…with tolerance, with respect for others who do not share our faith…or turn over and die...

rgds,

t

ps: yaar aajkal itnay ghussay main kyuN ho?…aik aur board per bhee aap ghussa jhaR rahay hain;)…