Do Foes of Gay Marriages Simply Fear Joy?

re. dost-mittar sahib`s comment to Ahmadmadani Sahib:
The breadth and depth of your knowledge is far superior to that of most so called experts of the Pakistani think tanks.
Aye! Aye! Indian, too, for that matter. Amazing man, this Madani!
Madani sahib, I would be honoured to meet up with you. Is there some way I can contact you personally? I am in Karachi.

labyrinth #123 If you find happiness living with another man, that is your business. And I commend you on being honest and not ruining the life of some girl by marrying her and then divorcing her after a few years for someone more exciting. This puts you morally ahead of not just gay men who do this, but heterosexual men who have a wife in the west whom they leave in middle age to get a young pakistani wife (or vice versa).

I have one quibble to your post, however, when you write that: ``I am born this way or atleast I am a strong believer in such a theory``

This of course is part of the famous nature vs. nurture issue as applied to homosexuality. I believe it cannot be nature (in your genes) to be gay. I say this for the following reason: since gay men would tend to have fewer children then heterosexual men, these genes would tend to die out after several generations. My gut instinct is that a large part is nurture (particularly the first few years of life). But nature or nurture - if you dont wear your homosexuality as some kind of a badge of self-righteousness on your sleeve, nor gross people out by kissing in public, as I saw Gary Shandling (? I think it was him) and another man do on TV the other day, or as Madonna and Brittany Spears did (no doubt to drum up publicity), then it is no one else`s business.

yogiraj #123 one thing is for sure - these gay men probably get more sex than heterosexual ones. given that males tend to be ready for action at short notice, while women (including wives) need to be pampered and coddled and cuddled and cajoled and even then may still need to be begged and pleaded.... :-)

anyway, on the other totally different question question (why islam when south so soon after the prophets death), that was indeed a great question you asked which i wish my co-religionists would ask themselves as well.

ahmadmadani#106
It`s your posts like these which makes some of us wonder from time to time if you really are what you say you are. The breadth and depth of your knowledge is far superior to that of most so called experts of the Pakistani think tanks. How many Pakistanis (not more than 2-3 even at Chowk) can talk about `Gora` or `Ekla chalo re`? Many of them claim their `expertise` solely on the basis of watching Bollywood films and throwing names like Madhuri Dixit and Ashwaraya Rai.
Your analysis of water crisis is right on the mark. My daughter is doing her degree in Environment Science and I have heartily approved of water resource as her field of specialisation. And your recommendation of removing the use of precious water resource where it makes less economic sense is also sound economics. If only water was realistically priced, this would happen without any direction from above.
But I was surprised about your info. re. Delhites throwing stale stored water. I never saw or heard anyone doing that. People prefer not to use stored water for drinking but have no problem using it for other purposes like washing, cleaning, flushing, etc.

Your plan to revive Pakistani hotel industry is interesting but you have not mentioned any visa problems. It used to be that Indians had to have a reason for getting a visa for Pakistan and tourism was not considered a valid reason. Have the rules changed and are Indians (or Pakistanis in India) no longer required to report regularly to the police during their stay in Pakistan?

Hi,
sac you wrote:

In any case this whole gay thing is media and academia inspired and will die down once the AIDS graph starts rising again....Ironically encouraging gay marriages may be one way to slow the disease!


It almost looks like you are under the false impression that AIDS is caused by homesexuality, or even worse the idea that the menace of AIDS owes its origin to the homesexulaity.

I pitty such people as it is lack-of-knowledge that can lead one to believe in ideas based on conjecture and hersay.

It is theorized that AIDS first spread through a particular species of champanze most probably through blood contact that occured during hunting and/or during dressing the injured animals.

The virus, HIV that causes AIDS spreads through one of these ways:

1. BLOOD: Blood transfusions etc the strongest concentartion of the HIV virus is in the blood.
   
2. SEMEN: The 2nd highest concentartion of the HIV virus is found in human semen and in all or any way that one gets semen from an affected person the cahnces are that person will get affected by HIV. It does not matter if this happens through homosexuality or hetrosexually the chances are equally good that an affected person will transfer his/her virus to the companion.
   
3. Vaginal Secretions:
   
4. Brest Milk: The least of all factors is brest feeding babies by the affected mother. But 100s of childern in Africa got this dreaded virus through their mothers.
   

Blood contact and un-protected sexual activities are the leading reasons for spreading HIV virus and THIS IS A WRONG IMPRESSION THAT AIDS IS CAUSED THROUGH HOMOSEXUALITY.


You have a better chance of survival if you are well aware, so educate yourself and those whom you know about AIDS.

Munbjan.

Stuka:
``However, the Guru Granth Sahib does stress on Grehasthi (Householder lifestyle) and that is defined as a result of a relation between man and woman, not man and man. ``

Yaar, couldn`t you come up with stronger evidence in support of your contention?
[btw, gay and lesbian couples also consider themselves grihasti].

Sac:

I``n any case this whole gay thing is media and academia inspired and will die down once the AIDS graph starts rising again...``

Explain this. I thought it would be the other way around.

PM:

Dude my extrapolation was based on the Guru Granth Sahib`s specifics on Grihasthi. The Holy Book also does not specifically talk about bestiality. Am I to take it as okay then?

There is no difference between homosexuality and bestiality. Both are perverions of nature.

I don`t know what to say !! the article is what I call
awesome! three cheers for tarek! all I want to say is
that being gay is not a crime! and getting into a gay
or same sex marriage is certainly not a crime or whatever!
I am gay, a Karachite living in UK with my spouse, yes
we are a gay couple (we had to fight everyone and some
how we won,our parents accepted only after one of us
have to leave home and come to UK)--my point is it`s
better to be `yourself` and not be someone else...its good
to be a relationship any relationship , you plan a lot and
love always is there (and Insh`Allah will be there)--to be
the decision for do or die! coz` i realized i am gay and that
my parents wanted me to wed with someone (from teh opp.gender)
but how could I ? if i would have married someone from a opp. gender
not only mine but her and her families life would have ruined! its strange
i have come of a clouset after all these years but I had to respond to the
article...and tell everyone that we are gay, we are married,we are happy and
soon we will be having a kid...and we are men! as far as Religion is concern
thats really tough ..Islam certainly is against homosexuality but I am born this
way or atleast I am a strong believer in such a theory what will I do .. maybe
I deserve hell? but come again I am better then millions of other practicing muslims
who kill ,loot have sex with other men and women and break there hearts! atleast
I am not a hypocrite .. God knows..until then God knows...
(thanks)

tahmed32

Thanks for response. The questions were honest. Got honest answers. Will work from there.
I am for Monto and not you, which however you know anyways.

There were/are only two reasons I can think of on the issue of this article.

1) Army. Historical mostly, but still true. Only men. Mostly young. No way out. Har`moans`
2) Jail. Long termers that is. Cannot go out. So....

When you cannot eat normally you... You are hungry then you need to eat... Dont you ....

We create something that is not how nature works. Then we have to pay for it.

Would honestly like to add ``Honey. I have a head-ache`` for the fair ones. But well that is not my forte. Not yet.

Yogiraj Patil

re stuka #84:

You are right that being gay falls more in the behavioral domain. However, I was using race and gender as something that you are born as and can`t do much about. Gays and lesbians want sexual orientation to be treated similarly. In any case this whole gay thing is media and academia inspired and will die down once the AIDS graph starts rising again....Ironically encouraging gay marriages may be one way to slow the disease!

later
-sac

PM #114 OK. Your superior logic wins the day, and gays have my permission to consider themselves married couples. Hope you are suitably impressed by my political correctness.

In celebration of your winning the argument, let me share what I am assured is a true story:

Some years back, a pakistani minister was being driven around NYC in the embassy car. They ran into a gay pride parade. the minister asked the driver (a simple pathan fellow)what these people were demonstrating for. The driver replied (and i must revert to urdu, even though i realize the words will sound crude and rude to the polite people on chowk and as such those offended by crude urdu words should stop reading here):

``sahab, yeh log apna gaand maraanay ka haq mangta hai.``

the minister i am told was also a polite english speaking kala sahab, and complained about the driver`s language causing the man to lose his job. that is what i am told. i hope you will see though that the poor simple driver was simply recognizing the right of the gays to do what gays do.

anyway, with much bigger problems in the world, what do consenting adult men wish to do with one another is fine with me. as long as they dont expect me to treat them like some glorious heroes.

ahmedmadani

...this was an informative post...

PM

:)

...mail me if you are here...temporal@chowk.com

TAhemd, #99
``PM #71 What you provide is an exception that proves the rule. However, I dont wish to start another long debate on this board.``
Duh! You provided a hypothesis (``the sole purpose of marraige is to have babies``). Your position (any position!) should be able to able to satisfy all tests of consistency. If the sole purpse of marraige is to have babies, by which `logic` you reject gay marriages, then by the same logic, you reject ALL marriages that are not intent on, or capable of, procreation. To put it simply, the exception itself demolishes your theory.
Tango around this conclusion all you want, but I think you know your lie has been exposed, and so you resort to choosing particulars of your own for illustration even while you object to the use of `exceptions.` Wonderful!
Then again, maybe you`re not really smart enough to realise all this.

Samina,
Just for the rec, sexy, yes (at least to hear it from the woemn and men I know and are incapable of subtlety). Het? Not quite. Don`t generally like labels at all, even, or especially related to sexual prefernces, which are anyway fluid and often enough diffused. But certainly, boys generally do it for me more than girls/women. And I mean boys.
There are some ugly things I have to say about the the politics of the G&Ls in the West, and of some feminists schools too, but this is not the time and place.

Samina,
I`m flabbergasted! Do you actually read Urstruly`s rantings on this subject?!? How many hours are there in a day in NYC these days anyway?

``Unlike you I do not plead & paw for popularity. The more antagonistic, the better. Let them come, I am fully capable of driving people bi-polar, insomniac, and prozaicists. For their own well-being they might as well NOT read my stuff. It is INTENDED to shake them up...Hatred for muslims is now out in the open and that is a very very good sign``
With all due respect, sir, get a grip!
(I hope that is SIMPLE :) enough, and that the very sincere intent of informing you of some deep malaise (your brilliance notwithstanding) gets through to you)
Ask yourself: ``What am I doing on this totally beygharait site anyway?`` Maybe that will HELP bring some peace within.
rgds (very sincerely),
PM