Do Foes of Gay Marriages Simply Fear Joy?

response # 108
My observations normally 4% Khabutors are gay- male. They move together chasing one to other and are always close. While male and female pairs move together but the wander away from each other. They do not appear too possessive. Female gay Khabutors may be 1/20 of male gay kabutors. Quite rare as many times males attack them. While male gay Khabutoors are rarely attacked. It is very easy to note male gay birds as thet are very overt in behavior. Female Gays are difficult to note as they are very discrete. But peson like me can locate in few hours. Most Khabootors are not Poligomous once they are settled as really hard work for male to get accepted. Once settled they are possive and male do not chase other females.
The quality of Bird is decided by eyes. Khabutoor with ring in eye are better as they normally smarter. Kapoos, Shiraji are beautiful looking birds but generally Guller, babara not good looking are better for flight and fight and smarter. Generally small birds are not good as are too much do show off and braek speed of flight of speed. The best birds to fly are thosewho get up and without circle start moving and droping as near to ground and like guided missiles just rise to avoid obstacles. Rivers banks are best to train as without circling they cab drop in banks and follow profile 3 to 4 feet. Ther are lots of males once displined ( only males hostels you can say) make noise by balooning neck but they remain batchelors through out life and these are real backbones of the fighting flock. They are least troublesome and like displine. Its great joy but is addictive. I stupidly spent lots of misspend years in Khabootorbaji. Keep away from them they are very addictive.

111:PM

Quran clearly got that wrong. A simple reference to the older scriptures from which it is sourced proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.

No. It is not SOURCED from the older scriptures. You should know that.


was decimated with the plague, or when millions died of cholera and influneza a centruy ago. Don`t you think your `simple` explanantion

No. epidemics are not ACQUIRED (like drunk driving) deaths.

unless you decide that that same God was lying when promising ghulmans in heaven for the righteous. There is also the history of Islam, where pedarasty was widely practised

Qura`an`s condemns this practice. Qura`ans mention of Ghilma`ans ( & houris) in heaven cannot be used as an excuse even for adultery & fornication. No need to find rationale to fit Qura`an to your behaviour..especially a non-believer. Or are you already trying to lead your life according to Qura`an?


Haven`t seen one. So i guess the best source of knowledge of this user guide would be the birds and the bees, the the 80 percent of mammals known to engage in same-sex play.

Birds& bees are not mammals. ``Play`` is the key word. We also play hockey & football. To an outsider that also may look like ``interpretation to orientation``. The user-guide is for those who SEEK help not to go astray and are consumed by the desire to know the RIGHT PATH, yourself included, so please do not drag `innocent` animals into it. Humans sin, animals not because latter do not exercise choice & will.

Qura`an is for BELIEVERS. For non-believers heaven or hell is meaningless. They should not worry or waste their time on it. US constituition can only be violated by those born as citizens or took an oath. When an alien gets so much interested & obssessed, it is entirely possible he wants to seek asylum to become a US citizen. The eyes and mind always spends hours only on that which interest ones the most.

I enjoy welcoming citizens.

#108 by nazarhayatkhan

Good ``Khabutar`` observation.

Ahmadmadani is a created character, but not THAT good.Now one can see-through his stuff.

Who the director/s is/are needs some imagination.

``The story of the prophet Lot, on whom be peace, finds mention in several Qur`anic passages (see especially Qur`an 26:l60 - 75).``
Sorry to break this to you, echo sahib, but the Quran clearly got that wrong. A simple reference to the older scriptures from which it is sourced proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. But of course, some will see and believe exactly what they would.
``In the past, doctors unwittingly gave blood tainted with the AIDS virus to thousands of patients. If a source of superior knowledge had warned us beforehand, and we paid attention to that warning, we could have saved many people from this deadly disease.``
Indeed, that mght have been prevented, but only incidentally. Where was the superior knowledge when a third Europe (mostly the poorer folks, so get off that track already :-) ) was decimated with the plague, or when millions died of cholera and influneza a centruy ago.
Don`t you think your `simple` explanantion is a little too, shall we say, convenient? Self-serving?
And, don`t mean to upturn your applecart, but Homosexuality is a muslim issue... unless you decide that that same God was lying when promising ghulmans in heaven for the righteous. There is also the history of Islam, where pedarasty was widely practised, even at times honoured. Feel free to ignore these slightly inconvenient facts.
Finally, our bodies are given to us in trust from God. One should not use his or her body contrary to the user guide provided by its Maker.
Haven`t seen one. So i guess the best source of knowledge of this user guide would be the birds and the bees, the the 80 percent of mammals known to engage in same-sex play.
Feel free to ignore all this too. Call it the Englightened Muslim`s way if you will!

Sometimes, nay often, otherwise rational folks apply logic that simply boggles. Sample:
From `` But Sikhism does condemn it.``
to ``The Guru Granth Sahib does not talk about homosexuality at all. This is because it was considered unimaginable or the sin was so obvious that the need to mention it was not considered.``
Well, I suppose anything that the good Guru did not mention, that seems unnatural or wrong to a follower, can then be construed as being an unimaginable sin not worthy even of mention.

Re # 107 : Well while I have a Bengali name I am not one but I have read the book long time back. Tagore`s ``Ekla Chalo`` is an inspirational song and was the favourite song of Mahatma Gandhi - how popular it is these days I really don`t know. Regional literature is still alive and so is regional poetry. Fortunately a lot of them are available in translation these days and another book I can recommend is Pather Panchali by Bibhutibhusan Bandyopadhyay.
I think your idea of getting Indian tourists is quite good - the more business Pakistan does with India will mean more people who have a stake in peace.

WALK ALONE (Ekla Chalo)

Walk alone.

If they answer not to thy call, walk alone;
If they are afraid and cower mutely facing the wall,
Open thy mind and speak out alone.

If they turn away and desert you when crossing the wilderness,
Trample the thorns under they tread,
And along the blood-lined track travel alone

If they do not hold up the light when the night is troubled with storm,
With the thunder-flame of pain ignite thine own heart,
And let it burn alone.

ahmeddani # 107

``You know so many ``Khabutars`` are gay. All others birds live happily along with them.``

This, I think, is the best summery of the entire thread.

(Incidently, there could also be lesbian, extra-marital, exhibitioinist, polygamous ``Khabootars``)

Dani, just for my info, how do you differentiate between Gay & Straight ``Khabootars``.

Response#11(BMK),#13(Subrato)#16(hamid Muhammad?) #22 (anil)#43(Dost Mitter) and Tahmed
You have been very kind to comment and they are appreciated.
Hamidm: I am real person and just do not read too much or watch too much around and happy most of time. I try best all time in my work and people appreciate my work. I always come 15 minutes early to work and leave 15 minutes later after my scheduled work hours. I have been to one year BA college and BA at that time was little better than MA today. I may do BA after retirement as fun waching young people and kill time.I never ask favors, always take work more than supposed to and do many works not assigned to me but my bosses except me to do. Women and men in our place come and complain about their chilgren and husbands and wives. All I do is listen and they feel better. My fauji manager and I am friend and do business in medicines.

Subrato: for good or bad we have perception bengalis are smart. But at same time we Punjabis say they are not smart but fish eating makes them smart. ( we punjabi`s feel some how we cannot be less smarter than anybody). Subrato have you read a novel called ``gora``( R.nath Thakur) ( i read in translation distributed by russian publication mir long time back in our city- I liked it). I really enjoyed beautiful courtship of Gora and pareshbabu`s daughter.- (In a way reminds me of this on going atuopsy of gay people on board). Is that beautiful song by Thakur ``ekala chalo re`` still popular or has gone away with time in India? Is poetry also dead in india in regional languages. ( desi poetry is bad written prose to cover all defects and still show contempt to readers- no rhythum, what is poetry withot rhythum?)

Tahmed: Why you all people do not leave gays in peace. So mush discussion itself means condemnation. You know so many ``Khabutars`` are gay. All others birds live happily along with them.

bmk: appreciated your comments

Anil: extreme positions are dangerous, you can not back out with out loss of face. Cruelty , ignorance, selfrightness and stupidty go together creating great miseries. It is possessive attitude regarding women by family members creates problems. If their son marries wife buffollow in USA is halal. If woman marries outside is haram- same fear of women sexuality while celebration of man sexuality as conquest.

Dost Mitter: you are kind to say those words.
You asked me two questions. Let me answer.
I noted shortages of water in India and Delhi. The terms are relative. In Delhi they do supply water by tankers in some distint areas. Once Jamuna- Satlej canal starts small amount we get will be history. It is service by city govt. Its free. In my city is 300 to 500 rs by tankers. There is criminal mafia involving tanker carriers and rangers. Ranger control sources of water. It is most corroupt sustem and nothing will happen as crores of rs. are being made and hanging hands every day.. There is our ``infamous`` pumping station Dabheji, it is broken all times. The main pipe lines are breaking all time. Break is good for everybody as so much money is involved. There is criminal axis working in city to make illeagal money. So even if there is lots of water for karachi, karachi will be thirsty. It is all farce. Once I remember PM B Bhutto inanagurated a big overhead water tank without water.

Pakistan water problem are structural. Time has come to reduce agricultural use ( almost over 95%) water used and product produced has no great value. Our county will be forced to do that as water can be used more better way for creation of wealth. Also with time urban poors will start asking question are they responsible for subsidising costly production of excee sugar and wheat and depriving them of needed water.

Indians have done well in water storage. I went to pune to call on Sindhi businessmen as courty call. We walked along river there. It was rainy season. But river had controlled flow. There was sand bed and they had concrete road carrying traffic. I asked will this road submerged in rains ? they told me no. They told me river use to get flood when there was only one dam on river. Now they have 7 dams and 25 times water storage capacity. I looked in news paper it gave names of all dams and % filled( useable capacity). I was explained storage capacity is so large only once in 5 years all get filled. I read in news papers maratha state is building 20,000 small check dams. This is enormous work taken by people. i was taken around they told and showed most hills surrounding pune city were green. I saw by my eyes peacocks sitting on trees. Just 10 years ago those were treeless hills. If you consult any book india boasts over 2000 major dams, probably largest. It appears it is indian obsession to build dams. All over county so mamy little dams. Its admirable. The major dams are coming on major rivers. Indians are even talking about connecting rivers with Indian president A P J Abdul Kadam encouraging. Other thing in india there is better supply in cities as all stupid indians junk all stored water next day, Its horrifying . I asked why they say its stale. It is my feeling( i am not techanician) from that indians throw 80% water in cities as stale. The water in all major cities by tap was clean to my eyes.
I see in future Indians stared drawing water from Sindhu river system. Its inevitable as present war situation is future. There will be no breakthroughs. We will cry but no body will pay attention. Turkey drained and damned river system of Euphrates and tigers and southern Iraq became desert, Syria is thristy and Turkey gives damn to down water rights. Sudan is thinking of nile use and Egypt almost went to war, but sudan even weak does not give damn to egypt. China is trying to divert some river systen eastwards from tibet can India do any thing ? nothing. Indians are playing great games in Afghanistan. River Kabul contributes 26% to Indus system and indians are puting `` ideas`` in afghan mind of building dams on kabul. Our country is saying use riversystems do not build dams. Indian CWPRS from pune were departing to Kabul. I was in Pune and they said thee is great potential for power and irrigation for Kabul river. Afghans are different , they use all. They will sit with us as brothers , ummah etc that crap but feast with indians to build dams. Over 26 MAP from Kabul is going to trouble. My feeling is waterwise India and Afghan will squeeze us. We have some chance with indians but Afghans no chance. Even Talibs gave damn to Durand line. For this reason its reasobale to compromise or my country will be forced going down fighting to end. Once Indians starts harvesting they will not revert back. Now a days Huge waterlifts are taking place. ( Once mighty Volga and Don rivers were diverted think how caspian sea went to dogs). Once that starts pakistan will be in dire state. Doubling population reduction of flows in kabul and indus is future. Its bad future.

My work assignments: it is on and off. The tourist traffic to karachi is trickled. There was hope when americans came to usa to enter Afghan county. But fear and antiamercan attitude panicked americans. And americans just fortified in military bases. It was disappointment. Same thing is happening in middle east. There is no``new`` Investments coming and its not expanding field to create opportunities. Hotel industry load capacity factors are low. Some good places are having load factors under 50%. You can not make money. We use to have ``marriage`` business but this very unreasonable restrictions regarding serving food are killing us. Serving food to marriages is always bread butter part when business is low. This murder Mr. Pearl and blasting of french really hurt. Before all White tech and business people will have their wives children. No even men keep confined, and confined people drink, even they are getting smart many buy their own bottles, just use ice and glasses we get nothing. We are getting through very hard cycles, its sinking feeling and does not appear to have hit bottom. This is best time to borrow as banks are brimmed with money, interest rates are down, banks are looking to lend but no CEO will like put money on bet.

I gave little pep talk to our people. Told it is our business feast or draught. What we can do is to do best. Let us do every job assigned first time right. Let us do best service, so who were here will remember us and visit us again. Let us give best service, be delegent. We had struck bad patch again like no South Africa games. Its worst Public Relationship done by S. Africans. We are worried and down. Last 10 years are terrible. These fighters and terrorist roaming through really damaged. They never use hotels.

I am working on ``planning study``. I am proud to say its my brain child. It is my feeling we in karachi can attract Sindhi Hindus from India. I studied and noted marriage patterns( went through matriminials advts) still all sindhi hindus brides and grooms always refer to from places they came from. ( from Karachi, Sukkar, lakrana, bhaiband etc, they are concious of their ancestry where they came from). I am personally working how we can bring them as tourists. They are one of richest group and do not mind spending ( some groups are thrifty will not mention). There are signs of Hidus over Karachi and Sindh, schools, colleges, hospitals . Hindu Gymkhana and sindhi muslims know that. I want to bring Hindu sindhis as tourists to take them to places where their foefathers lived and died. We can give newly married couple as our guests and show their country. I am putting lots of hours. We need them as they will like to visit. When I talked to business people they liked it. I talked to few newly married couples they felt novel. Now lots of men in maratha state marrying locals but such couples i interviewed and asked to fill forms. Some men liked that Idea as they wanted to show ``nonsindhi brides`` sindh. For this reason mainly I went to India. Also I am working still at elementary stage how a visitor to India can be lured to say Lahore to see different ,trying for 24 hour tour. They will fly from Indian cities live in karachi or lahore in our great hotels , in morning go by bus ( air) to places of interest reurn evening stay at night, have local scene and morning return to india. I think this is niche market and its ``LONG TERM``. I am talking to locals , travelling agents their inputs. Who knows these things are possible in future. I have put this all plans to my seniors. They asked to work on as time is lean . I know we must try. I am trying. Its complex. This very EARLY WORK, working on economic, logistic, foods, tourist places. WE want to take time and I want to give try to my Ideas before I go in retirement. I went to India and my heart was in it. Iwant to come to visit us our guests. If you have hatred this will neverwork. When I felt it is good work i will do, my heart felt ,put my energy and mind. People are smart , they knew who I was [punjabi) my sincere talk put sindhi hindus to calm. All things are assembled aginst my plan. Let us see what is in future

saminasha #95 They are just pretending to be poor. Gay men are very rich, that is why they are gay (as in happy).

Just kidding.


Seriously: You are right, and that is why I said ``generally``.

hamidm2 #103 you write ``if urstruly is against it, it must be good for mankind``

by your logic urstruly is also against besharam liberals. This means, if you were in california, you would vote for that ultra besharam liberal porno star who is running for governor (she is quite cute actually - i just saw her give jay leno the finger along with the cutest of smiles just now on the late night show after he joked about her`s being the only hole that got punched in the ballot.)

as samina shah says. ``If you can make apologies/rationales for the homophobia in a religious interpretation, then are apologies for gender, racial, class or caste oppression far behind?``......... besides, if urstruly is against it, it must be good for mankind..........

Romair#59:

Thank you for the tara`dudd. Just an observation: Canada has indeed a pleasant influence on you. Apparently, you enjoyed a nice ponytail in the US whereas the Canadian breeze has a certain buoyancy that is making you explore Ghalib, Parveen Shakir, and other finer elements in life. Probably, it`s the presence of the sinfae` nazuk in your life. Whatever it is, the reader can sense the evolution and growth and certainly the positive outlook.

[Well, since I wrote it, I will provide the backup.]

[What if someone wants to marry themselves? This was actually an argument presented in a major Canadian newspaper. Should they be allowed to do so? ]

[Moving from the USA to Canada has been an interesting experience. Something that I wouldn’t change for the world. Not that I did not like life in the USA.. But Canada is more up my alley.]

Good for you!

Thanks for the information on the talk shows.

Take Care.

Dear all
Pro-gay & anti gay groupies,just listen
Marriage is a union of love,not just a contract to sign with no emotions at all.As we have already seen & seeing marriage is already messed up with heterosexuals,so,how could homosexuals mess it up more?Marriage is not some commodity to purchase it in the name of social approval to be affiliated with the majority,means heterosexuals just out of fear of being bashed or punished.Marriage with out love is just like buying sex from a prostitute or in other words decent prostitution.OK,if you want to marry just & just for progeny ,go ahead & get married with the opposite sex.No,one will raise eye on you for your decision.Now,if you are in love with a person ,go get married with him/her just to spend rest of your life with your partner.Whats the big deal about it?Marriage should be solely on your & v. own discretion,not,society pressure which is mostly biased for it`s own selfish attitude.Marriage should not only be all about sexual preferences,but,about spiritual preferences as well.
Now,do you want to choke gays for not being heteros., pressurise them to be involved in hetero.relationship & suffocate them for something that they`re not meant to be from GOD(Al Mighty).Off course not.If I say what If gays choke hetero. for not being gays & suffocate them to death to be what they`ren`t?No,never.So,leave the gays to marry what ever suits them the most.Concentrate on other big issues of the world which are destroying humanity the most.Thanks

I liked the way Tarek and Nargis narrated their own story and I found it sweet. It`s obvious that this article has more of an emotional touch to it. The writers are taking their own example and comparing it to the stance of those who are not legally accepted elsewhere in the world as couples.

The point is not to validate or reject the notion of homosexualism according to religion x vs. y. The point is that if someone is different from you that does not mean that you go and wipe them off. If that is the way life should be lead then all the sectarian killings that are conducted in Pakistan will fall under the umbrella of legitimate killings. What about the children who are given away as part of the mann`at of their parents to a mazar and they become Shah Dau`la Kae` Choo`hae`. I am not sure if it`s a name that`s given to them out of sheer jest or that`s what they are exactly known as. They are different. After all, they must have a way of living as well. In general, majority has been the authority. So, let`s see how far the said struggle proceeds.

Ahmed Madani:

``Marriage is not about producing children only.``

The above is a million dollar point, but unfortunately it`s not everyone`s cup of tea to delve into the nuances.

Secondly, your story about Mr. Billa was quite touching. I cannot stand both cats and dogs since I am scared of them; but after reading your touching story, I have developed a soft corner for this sweet billa. I hope he feels better. Best Wishes to Mr. Billa.

Urstruly

``The problem with us the Muslims is different. My #66 explains why we have to take panga anyway. ``

If that is the case, why did you address your post to all Human Beings? You got it right the first time. The agenda to make homosexuality mainstream is suicidal for the human race.