Do Foes of Gay Marriages Simply Fear Joy?

correction:`` ... the state of New Mexico.``

AlephNull:
addendum: Your contentions would carry more weight if there was some empirical data suggesting the dangers of intergenrational sexual encounters, as opposed a baiss in specualtive philosophy. Good news! There issuch data available, although bodies as high as the US. Congress would like to supress and denounce(!) it-- reminiscint of the pope`s treatment of Galelio. Look up Rindd Report. There is also Baurman. Both are meta analyses, I believe.

tarek and nargis,

Your write up is such a breath of fresh air. People tend to view followers of islam as those who exacerbate rather than soothe and its rare to see such a ` live and let live` kind of write up from those who call themselves believers. I have always shouted myself hoarse amongst anyone who would listen, that entire communities of people should never be condemned for the views of a few but I was seriously questioning my conviction when most of the followers of islam I met, used religion as a cloak for their bigoted views and presumed superiority( woe to anyone who worships a god other allah). Given this backdrop of my experience, your views on a topic so controversial are very refreshing. May your tribe increase.

PM: The obssessive-compulsive logician & rationaliser.

Under U.S laws you are a child-molester, plain & simple.

I am amazed how ``tolerant`` the CHOWK liberals, secularists, and the commies become; and the how the abuse of islam, our nabi(pbuh), and muslims is not just tolerated but celebrated. Muslims--must note such mindset and understand that debate & discussion is futile.The Qura`an already warned us, about such a behaviour by mushriks, and muslims need re-read & refer-to the Qur`an every once in a while.

Socrates corrupted young minds, you PM corrupt young arsses. Socrates upheld the superamacy of law , you question the very law itself. He had the courage and conviction to practice his belief in public, you seek justification for your acts in anonymity.

It is not proper, for a non-believer, to quote the Qura`an to rationalise his own beliefs. It is like a chinese( for example only) takes, in his defence, the fifth amendment in the people`s republic courts.

.

PM #187 i think your statement that sexual activity between and adult and a minor whose age is ``12, give or take a few years, seems conservative to me`` is considered pedophilia by normal people.

I realize I am not being politically correct here in distinguishing between normal people vs. sick individuals who think it is OK for an adult to have sex with a 12 year old. That is fine.

I am sorry to say but that is exactly what that statement says about you. You can write a post ridiculing me for calling you a sick individual for making such a statement, or you can reflect upon why you have crossed the line that distinguishes normal from sick (and criminal) behavior.

Chowk Staff : How come rationalizing criminal pedophilia (is there any other kind ?) albeit done politely is acceptable on Chowk interacts ? Is there something wrong with your interact guidelines that simple namecalling is censored and possible crimes against minors repectfully discussed instead of reported to law enforcement?

If Chowk had any sense of reponsibility PM would have been reported to the authorities in his city for investigation for possible crimes against minors after his article on ``Boylove``. The parents of the children he ``tutored`` have a right to know of his behaviour towards them. The parents who *may* be putting their sixth graders in his care right now have a right to know of his background before trusting their chidren to him.

DO YOU GET IT ? Or are you guys from another PLANET ?

Fuzair:

``Fortunately, we don`t have to allow bestiality since I am not sure any one could argue (and win) that they got an ``informed consent`` form signed by an animal. ``

Not a valid argument. After all we do not get informed consent from animals before we eat them either. Following your assumptions of incest and polygamy (which I belive hold true if you carry the matter to its logical conclusion) bestiality would be legal if the human being involved consented to it.

``Do Foes of Gay Marriages Simply Fear Joy?``

This is a classic looney-liberal ploy. Set up a totally false argument for the opposing side, pitting them against `joy`, `love`, `diversity` and other wonderful things, then proceed to solemnly and piously beat the living daylights out of it, and finally celebrate a comprehensive moral victory.



Do you really want to know what most (yes, MOST) people fear about homosexuals?? Do you really even need to be told?

Do Foes of Incestous marriages Simply Fear Joy?

Do Foes of Bestial Marriages Simply Fear Joy?

Do Foes of Paedophilic Marriages Simply Fear Joy?

Questions, questions...but there`s an answer in there somewhere, if you look carefully enough.

AlephNull,
Most of what you say makes good sense, and I agree. However, where I don`t agree is that sexual activity--addicitve as it may be-- can be lumped with the known `vices` of alcohol, tobacco or other drugs, whose long- and short-term negative affects are indisputibale, especially on brains not fully `developed`. Terming child sexual activity as harmful, therefore, begs the question.
Disparity in power dynamics would seem a more valid objection. This has been debated extensively (though I would have to admit not in any sense conclusively) by many. Please follow this link for a protracted exposition of the issue of power I had with Ferozk a few years ago.
``A conservative lower age limit on sexual activity between young people and adults therefore seems sensible to me.``
12, give or take a few years, seems conservative to me.
rgds,
PM

PM will read the link later and the age of consent. Still uncomfortable with 12 as an age of consent.
``please be mindful of the religious traditions and history of other interactors on this site`` naughty naughty that thought had not even crossed my mind :-)

PM #176

{{And yes, I agree that 6 or 8 might be a little too young to know even how to say no, but 12-14?}}

Sexual activity affects human beings at least as powerfully as any of the common drugs. It convulses the body, deeply affects the psyche, displays all the hallmarks of an addictive agent – cravings, withdrawal symptoms, etc. So – like the consumption of alcohol and tobacco - it is something where adequate foreknowledge, considered judgment, an ability to think through the consequences of ones actions – such as adults are, at least nominally, expected to possess – seems highly advisable.

Sex relations further invariably involve a power dynamic – it comes with the territory – which makes a large disparity of ages, with the attendant possibility of manipulation and intimidation, especially troubling. Perhaps there is some recognition of this here in the way laws on statutory rape (i.e., where the issue is not of consent but of one party being underage) are framed – they typically depend on the difference in ages of the parties.

A person reaches a state of adult ‘maturity’ at different ages in various aspects of his or her being. There are also wide variations between individuals. It is entirely possible for one thirteen-year-old to be worldly-wise, savvy, street-smart and quite capable of seeing through or consciously manipulating those much older; while another at the same age, while intellectually precocious, may be an utter naïf in human relations. The process of maturation of course depends on the society in which one lives.

Statutes on these matters typically invoke a fixed minimum age for each gender as a legal rule of thumb, due to the practical difficulty of constant ongoing psychological evaluation of every young person to determine when he or she is ‘ready’. A conservative lower age limit on sexual activity between young people and adults therefore seems sensible to me. In most jurisdictions a fourteen-year old is not considered old enough to smoke, drink, or drive, even with adult supervision, though he or she ought to be informed about these things. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be the same way with sex – with, or ‘supervised’ by, adults

scott:
Your questions are valid. They`ve also been fair well thrashed out here. The article itself is badly formatted in HTML, but the interacts are readable.
There is also the link to the abcnews site I provided earlier that deals with some of these questions.
Just two points to make here:
1. Exploitation (assuming we have common understanding of that word) is always wrong.
2. Empirical data relating to cross-gender intergenerational erotic encounters (sexual or otherwise) doesn`t support the idea that it is harmless. It forMan-boy encounters. Look up Rindd Report on Google.
3. re. 6-8 vs 12-14, it`s not simply a qustion of what one likes. There is biology, psychology, sociology and other disciplines which inform us as to the appropriateness or otherwise (discounting `morality` for the moment). Most studies I am aware of, draw a line around 12.

re. ``no civilisation in history has even countenanced the abomination which is gay marriage. it is against all norms of morality and decency. even the ancient greeks--where bisexually was commonplace--did not go as far as giving this sick behaviour the cloth of decency by attaching the label of marriage to it. this is because marriage is a sacred bond between man and woman.``
True, for the most part, but not for the reasons you ascribe:
Few civilizations in human history until recently have had the nuclear or even extended family structure as we do nowadays.
Funny you should mention the Greeks. Accordign to R.H Crossman, the eminent Plotanist(sp?) sexual intercourse with women was a national duty, since (probably influenced by what we would today call male chauvanism and misogyny) true love could only really exis between men. The dominant idiom for this homoeroticsm was the man-boy pedogogical relationship, pedaeristes (now known in its more vulgar usage, `pederasty`)
Yes, bisexuality was a national imperative, given the easy danger of sliding into extinction with a slight fall in birthrate. In this dayan age, for most places in the world, it would almost be fair to say that limited homosexuality is getting imperative.
``Allah and His Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam--nay, ALL prophets from Adam alayhisalam onwards have condemned homosexuality (which is reason enough to condemn it for the Believers) in the strongest possible terms and it is a sign of the depravity of the age in which we live in that such abomination is tolerated and even encouraged.``
``Strongest pesonal terms!?!`` hmm.. not very big on Hanafi, are we? :-) . looks like even our ersident faysalsaf/fiqah expert is not untainted by the influence of the PC and homophobic West.
Oh, in case you didn`t `get` the reference to abu Hanafi, the dude (baqqol YLH) listed homosexuality as 19th in his catalogue of deadliest sins. Adultery was #10. Let`s see you (and echo and Urstruly) save some bluster for the tirade against adulterers too, manny!
rgds,
PM
P.S. Hazarat Adam denounced homosexaulity?!? Which Qur`an do you read??

scott,
re. ``Would u also support older men`s right to love 12-14 yr girls? In both cases it would count as as a pedophile rape.``
Just for perspective and info, that statement would not be true in all states and all cultures. Look up the Consent laws for European nations and even Canada.
And please be mindful of the religious traditions and history of other interactors on this site. It is the least courtesy you can show as a visitor.
rgds, :)
Patrick M.

Re. the question of what human behaviour is `natural`, this is difficult to pin down within narrow limits because humans of all animals are so intensely susceptible to cultural programming.

A good source for the diversity of sexual behaviour in the animal kingdom is Frederick Bagemihl’s Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity.

For an interesting look at the naturally occurring prolific polymorphically ‘perverse’ pansexuality of Pan paniscus, the dwarf chimpanzee or bonobo – a near relative of humankind with 98% shared genetic inheritance - see Frans de Waal’s Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape

PM just bcoz 12-14 year olds are physically mature does not mean they should be exploited. Would u also support older men`s right to love 12-14 yr girls? In both cases it would count as as a pedophile rape.
Also while u may love 12-14 yr olds what about those who like the 6-8 yrs olds (they can come up with the same arguments as u). There has to be an age of consent otherwise it is pedophila.