Waiting For Fatwa
Temporal September 17, 2003
#248 Posted by munirsaami on December 6, 2003 11:58:34 pm
Hello,
While many of the participants are still engrossed in reading Trouble with Islam, I thought it appropriate to share the following review, that may also help understand this not so complex book.
Kindly consider the entire article in parenthesis.
A Multifaceted Fraud
Reviewing Irshad Manji`s `The Trouble With Islam`
By Justin Podur
ZNet Magazine
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4624
Irshad Manji, according to the jacket of her book, is ``a broadcaster,
author, public speaker, and media enterpreneur, born in East Africa and
raised on the west coast of Canada.`` She was the producer and host of
QueerTelevision and calls herself ``a journalist with a reputation for
flinging open doors`` (pg. 76). Her new book, ``The Trouble With Islam: A
Wake-up Call for Honesty and Change``, is on Canadian bestseller lists and,
with a glowing profile in the NewYork Times, will no doubt do well in the
United States as well. Her book is supposed to be an ``Open Letter to
Muslims and Non-Muslims``, asking ``tough questions``: ``Why are we all being
held hostage by what`s happening between the Palestinians and the Israelis?
What`s with the stubborn streak of anti-Semitism in Islam? Who is the real
colonizer of Muslims - America or Arabia? Why are we squandering the
talents of women, fully half of God`s creation?`` (pg. 2).
.....
While many of the participants are still engrossed in reading Trouble with Islam, I thought it appropriate to share the following review, that may also help understand this not so complex book.
Kindly consider the entire article in parenthesis.
A Multifaceted Fraud
Reviewing Irshad Manji`s `The Trouble With Islam`
By Justin Podur
ZNet Magazine
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4624
Irshad Manji, according to the jacket of her book, is ``a broadcaster,
author, public speaker, and media enterpreneur, born in East Africa and
raised on the west coast of Canada.`` She was the producer and host of
QueerTelevision and calls herself ``a journalist with a reputation for
flinging open doors`` (pg. 76). Her new book, ``The Trouble With Islam: A
Wake-up Call for Honesty and Change``, is on Canadian bestseller lists and,
with a glowing profile in the NewYork Times, will no doubt do well in the
United States as well. Her book is supposed to be an ``Open Letter to
Muslims and Non-Muslims``, asking ``tough questions``: ``Why are we all being
held hostage by what`s happening between the Palestinians and the Israelis?
What`s with the stubborn streak of anti-Semitism in Islam? Who is the real
colonizer of Muslims - America or Arabia? Why are we squandering the
talents of women, fully half of God`s creation?`` (pg. 2).
.....
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#247 Posted by munirsaami on December 5, 2003 8:22:22 am
Hello Temporal,
I take the liberty of quoting your paragraphs in the original message:
``I hope to read the book soon. I would read her with an open mind and would urge you to do the same. But from all that I have read about it so far I fear that a fatwa is in the offing from those who read not. But as Salman Rushdie advised her, “a book is more important than life.”
If those fears come true, I hope the silent amidst you would shake off your lethargy and raise your voice in your local media against forces of decay and regression, against forces of violence and intolerance, against forces of gross misinterpretation. Do not be distracted by those who would deflect and criticize her lifestyle. Judge her on what she has written.``
And now I take the liberty of asking you if you have read the book as suggested, and would you be able to share your findings. I tried to scan through the interactions and could not find the answer.
It seems that the silent amidst us have tried to whatever they could to bring about the truths and have found the media attitudes appalling in publishing even objective and progressive responses.
On the pain of repetition I requote what one of the most objective non Muslim of our time Edward Said wrote in his, Impossible Histories:Why many Islams cannot be simplified.
``The history of trying to come to terms with this somewhat
fictionalized (or at least constructed) Islam in Europe and later in
the United States has always been marked by crisis and conflict,
rather than by calm, mutual exchange. There is the added factor now
of commercial publishing, ever on the lookout for a quick bestseller
by some adept expert that will tell us all we need to know about
Islam, its problems, dangers, and prospects.``
That literally sums up the argument.
I am also working on my own review of the book since I have completed my reading and will share it soon at Chowk and other fora.
Very best . Munir
I take the liberty of quoting your paragraphs in the original message:
``I hope to read the book soon. I would read her with an open mind and would urge you to do the same. But from all that I have read about it so far I fear that a fatwa is in the offing from those who read not. But as Salman Rushdie advised her, “a book is more important than life.”
If those fears come true, I hope the silent amidst you would shake off your lethargy and raise your voice in your local media against forces of decay and regression, against forces of violence and intolerance, against forces of gross misinterpretation. Do not be distracted by those who would deflect and criticize her lifestyle. Judge her on what she has written.``
And now I take the liberty of asking you if you have read the book as suggested, and would you be able to share your findings. I tried to scan through the interactions and could not find the answer.
It seems that the silent amidst us have tried to whatever they could to bring about the truths and have found the media attitudes appalling in publishing even objective and progressive responses.
On the pain of repetition I requote what one of the most objective non Muslim of our time Edward Said wrote in his, Impossible Histories:Why many Islams cannot be simplified.
``The history of trying to come to terms with this somewhat
fictionalized (or at least constructed) Islam in Europe and later in
the United States has always been marked by crisis and conflict,
rather than by calm, mutual exchange. There is the added factor now
of commercial publishing, ever on the lookout for a quick bestseller
by some adept expert that will tell us all we need to know about
Islam, its problems, dangers, and prospects.``
That literally sums up the argument.
I am also working on my own review of the book since I have completed my reading and will share it soon at Chowk and other fora.
Very best . Munir
#246 Posted by munirsaami on December 4, 2003 9:36:40 am
Hello ,
After several discussions on this subject in the past, I am assuming
that most of the participanrs may have by now read the book.
And I am also assuming that this issue is still alive.
May I suggest that we conduct a poll of this group on this issue and
try to establish as to what percentage agrees, disagrees, or is
neutral to the diatribes expressed in the book.
I would also like to find the answers to some troubling questions:
1. Why would a publisher(s) be interested in printing a book in
multiple languages on an issue about which the credential of the
writer are not established.
2. Why would an Israeli printing/publishing house want to print a
simultaneous Arabic version of the book.
3. Why would globe and mail not publish letters on the subject after
Tarek`s comments.
In parting I will try to provide an answer by none other than Edward
Said. He wrote in his, Impossible Histories:Why many Islams cannot be
simplified.
``The history of trying to come to terms with this somewhat
fictionalized (or at least constructed) Islam in Europe and later in
the United States has always been marked by crisis and conflict,
rather than by calm, mutual exchange. There is the added factor now
of commercial publishing, ever on the lookout for a quick bestseller
by some adept expert that will tell us all we need to know about
Islam, its problems, dangers, and prospects.``
It is intersting to note that Irshad Manji casually brushes aside
Edward Said. Is she the ``adept expert `` that Edward Said points out.
Regards. Munir
After several discussions on this subject in the past, I am assuming
that most of the participanrs may have by now read the book.
And I am also assuming that this issue is still alive.
May I suggest that we conduct a poll of this group on this issue and
try to establish as to what percentage agrees, disagrees, or is
neutral to the diatribes expressed in the book.
I would also like to find the answers to some troubling questions:
1. Why would a publisher(s) be interested in printing a book in
multiple languages on an issue about which the credential of the
writer are not established.
2. Why would an Israeli printing/publishing house want to print a
simultaneous Arabic version of the book.
3. Why would globe and mail not publish letters on the subject after
Tarek`s comments.
In parting I will try to provide an answer by none other than Edward
Said. He wrote in his, Impossible Histories:Why many Islams cannot be
simplified.
``The history of trying to come to terms with this somewhat
fictionalized (or at least constructed) Islam in Europe and later in
the United States has always been marked by crisis and conflict,
rather than by calm, mutual exchange. There is the added factor now
of commercial publishing, ever on the lookout for a quick bestseller
by some adept expert that will tell us all we need to know about
Islam, its problems, dangers, and prospects.``
It is intersting to note that Irshad Manji casually brushes aside
Edward Said. Is she the ``adept expert `` that Edward Said points out.
Regards. Munir
#245 Posted by MNIPhirSay on December 1, 2003 6:26:45 am
yaar tempoo
The NY Times profile is quite old, at least two months old. I am not sure one can post links from 2 month old NY Times issues. Sorry man
I read Tarek`s rejoinder. Manji`s rendition of Pre 1949 Middle East history is at the same level as that of a fifth grader in a Tel Aviv elementary school, keh ji Amin al Husseini visited Hitler therefore Palestinians are anti-Semites, and by extension, Muslims are that as well. History was of course much more complex than that.
Yaar if this is the calibre of this book then there are better ways for me to spend money than buy this load of crap. It is sad that these reverse-bigots, with ears and eyes firmly shut, are wearing the mantle of enlightenment.
The NY Times profile is quite old, at least two months old. I am not sure one can post links from 2 month old NY Times issues. Sorry man
I read Tarek`s rejoinder. Manji`s rendition of Pre 1949 Middle East history is at the same level as that of a fifth grader in a Tel Aviv elementary school, keh ji Amin al Husseini visited Hitler therefore Palestinians are anti-Semites, and by extension, Muslims are that as well. History was of course much more complex than that.
Yaar if this is the calibre of this book then there are better ways for me to spend money than buy this load of crap. It is sad that these reverse-bigots, with ears and eyes firmly shut, are wearing the mantle of enlightenment.
#244 Posted by temporal on November 30, 2003 12:00:47 pm
#243 Posted by temporal on November 29, 2003 12:31:44 pm
MNI:
agreed...there was a telling rejoinder signed by tarek fateh and nargis in the globe and mail some days back...irhsad had mentioned their names in the book as being veryu helpful....the dissociated themselves from her and wanted dedication mentions to them removed from any future editions of the book....
will try and post it here later...meanwhile will appreciate that link to NYT if yuy have it
....t
agreed...there was a telling rejoinder signed by tarek fateh and nargis in the globe and mail some days back...irhsad had mentioned their names in the book as being veryu helpful....the dissociated themselves from her and wanted dedication mentions to them removed from any future editions of the book....
will try and post it here later...meanwhile will appreciate that link to NYT if yuy have it
....t
#242 Posted by MNIPhirSay on November 28, 2003 4:50:51 pm
A dear friend of mine who happens to be Jewish showed me an article in the NY Times on this woman. He`s a dear friend, but our disagreement on the Middle East politics couldn`t be stronger. One can see why he was so enamoured by this woman`s profile.
My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called ``racists,`` or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?
My Uncle Tom alarm is going off. The obvious implication is that there is something peculiarly wrong with ``Muslims`` and with Islam, which the non-Muslims, untainted by that malady can correct. Why can`t Muslims themselves address those problems? There is also an assumption that non-Muslims (from Hindus to Jews to Christians to Buddhists) don`t have problems in their own societies. And finally, it ignores the reality, that there is a small industry out there of Islam-critics with an ugly agenda of their own, just as intolerant, vitriolic in their hatred, as say, Osama bin Laden. And not a small portion of Ms. Manji`s cheerleaders are from that hateful camp.
“Call her crazy or call her courageous, Toronto journalist Irshad Manji is calling for reform in Islam — targeting what she calls its oppression of women, its tribalism and its attitudes toward Jews.”
Islamic attitudes towards pagans (Hindus, for example) are even more rotten than those towards Jews, and Qur`an is not very kind to Christians either. The fact that anti-Semitism is singled out in this manner is a very telling hint as to which group this woman seeks to pander, or which group will use her as a poster child. This is old hat. Very soon this idiot will be on Daniel Pipes` payroll.
YES heaven knows we need to question religion, especially Islam for its illogic, for its intolerance, for its misogyny, yes for its anti-Semitism, anti-Paganism, rigidity, irrationality, stupidity. Yes, we need to question it for all those things. But we should not at any cost, fall into the insidious trap of becoming pawns in the hands of those who have their own racist, tribalist agendas to advance.
My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called ``racists,`` or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?
My Uncle Tom alarm is going off. The obvious implication is that there is something peculiarly wrong with ``Muslims`` and with Islam, which the non-Muslims, untainted by that malady can correct. Why can`t Muslims themselves address those problems? There is also an assumption that non-Muslims (from Hindus to Jews to Christians to Buddhists) don`t have problems in their own societies. And finally, it ignores the reality, that there is a small industry out there of Islam-critics with an ugly agenda of their own, just as intolerant, vitriolic in their hatred, as say, Osama bin Laden. And not a small portion of Ms. Manji`s cheerleaders are from that hateful camp.
“Call her crazy or call her courageous, Toronto journalist Irshad Manji is calling for reform in Islam — targeting what she calls its oppression of women, its tribalism and its attitudes toward Jews.”
Islamic attitudes towards pagans (Hindus, for example) are even more rotten than those towards Jews, and Qur`an is not very kind to Christians either. The fact that anti-Semitism is singled out in this manner is a very telling hint as to which group this woman seeks to pander, or which group will use her as a poster child. This is old hat. Very soon this idiot will be on Daniel Pipes` payroll.
YES heaven knows we need to question religion, especially Islam for its illogic, for its intolerance, for its misogyny, yes for its anti-Semitism, anti-Paganism, rigidity, irrationality, stupidity. Yes, we need to question it for all those things. But we should not at any cost, fall into the insidious trap of becoming pawns in the hands of those who have their own racist, tribalist agendas to advance.
#241 Posted by saminshah on September 26, 2003 9:17:40 am
#238 by scott on September 25, 2003
``Samin u probably approve of ur fellow gujju`s recent cleansing attempts in Gujjuland``
man i think if u know abt my born religion you are taken aback
``so how many did u get? ``
what`s mean?
``Samin u probably approve of ur fellow gujju`s recent cleansing attempts in Gujjuland``
man i think if u know abt my born religion you are taken aback
``so how many did u get? ``
what`s mean?
#240 Posted by puyu on September 26, 2003 9:17:39 am
I read through all the posts and found that towards the end it degenerates into verbal matches. But just couldnt resist joining it!!
Im all for transparency (no hidden agendas here!)so I would like to make it clear that I am a `horrible hindoo` .Dont expect me to prove the credentials of being politically correct in a single post (I saw some posts by tahmed(?) which forced me to put this in. )
When I started reading the post I was thinking who would dare to deconstruct the Qur`an . I was pleased and surprised to seee so many candidtates right in here! Boy , they even convinced me of Qur`an`s leniency towards homosexuals. Now Im convinced that Islam doesnt need any help from the outsiders who speak from a high pedestal. But such an important discussion entails that I be a a part of it!!
To start on a lighter note I think that (`good`) Muslims take themselves too seriously Their fiery God of the old testament is most fearsome with no sense of humour.Joke about your god? Dont even think of it! Well , we have our own Goddesss Kali who is as fiery and terrrible as anything or anyone . And people are obviously afraid of her. But thats not the dominant feeling .There is enough space for them to chide ,tease and even ridicule her. Now I cant resist narrating a particular tale about Kali.(very bad habit,puts u in most embarassing situations.but what the hell!)
Those who are not interested in any digressions can/may skip the next para!!!
Tenali Rama was a courtier in the palace of the king Krishna Devaraya.
Once he started worshipping Kali .When Kali appeared infront of him with all her 1000 or so heads ,he started to laugh at her.Kali,furious with this irreverence and bad manners ,demanded an explanation. Tenali said, ``Mother ,even with this single head of mine I have a hard time when I go on a sneezing bout.I couldnt help wonder how you`d cope with it..``
I wont be surprised if you didnt find it funny.Its not the first time.. you see!
Any way Kali found it funny and and gave him some extra boons.Tells us about how refined she is despite her strange dress sense!! (I would like to add that Im not an atheist or agnostic and dont speak from the pedals of a vedantist.I am a devotee of the mother Goddess . I cant explain how I relate to my God (its too subtle!!)but certainly He/She doesnt mind jokes)
Those who were not interested in any digressions can /may come back!!
My anecdote about Hindu Gods would certainly raise the question of idol worship the denial of which is the core of Islam . An idol is a representation and so are words.Idols belong to the material word.So do words. (Even thought is material.Check the latest in neurology).If religious people realize this they wouldnt be so obsessed with what the kafirs/pagans say.
The Book ofcourse!!
Islam is the most bookish of all bookish religions (but i dont know much about the jews,despite the nexus ;-) ) The Book contains everything from
string theory to the latest in the stock market!! If this crap were true then Hindus are clearly superior to the rest. Fritjof Capra has interpreted the Nataraja (dancing Siva) to be an episode from the particle physics and Capra is a real physicist! As far I know the Islamic physicists are still stuck with Newton. I could read methods of salvation (spiritual ofcourse) in the playboy. The point is the text is subject to intepretation and it is bound by space and time .Why do you apply a text writtten for an audience who belonged to the middle ages and also to a particular geographical region to very 21st century problems? Are you too egottistic or plain idiotic ?
Such an approach towards the smrits (esp the manusmriti)had put us Hindus in a time warp whose effcts still cripple us.The 20th century saw us trying to come out of it.
If Islam doesnt do the same to Qur`an youve had it! Accepting that Qur`an is just a text doent take anything away from it.All the stuff thats worthy will survive all critical analysis and the rot will be put in the garbage
Now enough hindoo ranting and some constructive input.
Since you believe that Mohammed was the last prophet there is no point waiting for a saviour. And as long as the rest of the world is not keen on alleviating the sense of persecution of Muslims the larger Islamic population would not take kindly to any reformist movement . So atleast make sure that your children are given a decent secular education . Dont send them to the madrassas.Teach them religion (if you are religious) at home. Even though hindus do not have any formal religious education I havent been able to escape some level of indoctrination.So I can imagine what the madrassas do. As for me,I am a `hindoo`.I believe that the God will incarnate again and save hindoos and ofcourse Muslims too!! :-))
Im all for transparency (no hidden agendas here!)so I would like to make it clear that I am a `horrible hindoo` .Dont expect me to prove the credentials of being politically correct in a single post (I saw some posts by tahmed(?) which forced me to put this in. )
When I started reading the post I was thinking who would dare to deconstruct the Qur`an . I was pleased and surprised to seee so many candidtates right in here! Boy , they even convinced me of Qur`an`s leniency towards homosexuals. Now Im convinced that Islam doesnt need any help from the outsiders who speak from a high pedestal. But such an important discussion entails that I be a a part of it!!
To start on a lighter note I think that (`good`) Muslims take themselves too seriously Their fiery God of the old testament is most fearsome with no sense of humour.Joke about your god? Dont even think of it! Well , we have our own Goddesss Kali who is as fiery and terrrible as anything or anyone . And people are obviously afraid of her. But thats not the dominant feeling .There is enough space for them to chide ,tease and even ridicule her. Now I cant resist narrating a particular tale about Kali.(very bad habit,puts u in most embarassing situations.but what the hell!)
Those who are not interested in any digressions can/may skip the next para!!!
Tenali Rama was a courtier in the palace of the king Krishna Devaraya.
Once he started worshipping Kali .When Kali appeared infront of him with all her 1000 or so heads ,he started to laugh at her.Kali,furious with this irreverence and bad manners ,demanded an explanation. Tenali said, ``Mother ,even with this single head of mine I have a hard time when I go on a sneezing bout.I couldnt help wonder how you`d cope with it..``
I wont be surprised if you didnt find it funny.Its not the first time.. you see!
Any way Kali found it funny and and gave him some extra boons.Tells us about how refined she is despite her strange dress sense!! (I would like to add that Im not an atheist or agnostic and dont speak from the pedals of a vedantist.I am a devotee of the mother Goddess . I cant explain how I relate to my God (its too subtle!!)but certainly He/She doesnt mind jokes)
Those who were not interested in any digressions can /may come back!!
My anecdote about Hindu Gods would certainly raise the question of idol worship the denial of which is the core of Islam . An idol is a representation and so are words.Idols belong to the material word.So do words. (Even thought is material.Check the latest in neurology).If religious people realize this they wouldnt be so obsessed with what the kafirs/pagans say.
The Book ofcourse!!
Islam is the most bookish of all bookish religions (but i dont know much about the jews,despite the nexus ;-) ) The Book contains everything from
string theory to the latest in the stock market!! If this crap were true then Hindus are clearly superior to the rest. Fritjof Capra has interpreted the Nataraja (dancing Siva) to be an episode from the particle physics and Capra is a real physicist! As far I know the Islamic physicists are still stuck with Newton. I could read methods of salvation (spiritual ofcourse) in the playboy. The point is the text is subject to intepretation and it is bound by space and time .Why do you apply a text writtten for an audience who belonged to the middle ages and also to a particular geographical region to very 21st century problems? Are you too egottistic or plain idiotic ?
Such an approach towards the smrits (esp the manusmriti)had put us Hindus in a time warp whose effcts still cripple us.The 20th century saw us trying to come out of it.
If Islam doesnt do the same to Qur`an youve had it! Accepting that Qur`an is just a text doent take anything away from it.All the stuff thats worthy will survive all critical analysis and the rot will be put in the garbage
Now enough hindoo ranting and some constructive input.
Since you believe that Mohammed was the last prophet there is no point waiting for a saviour. And as long as the rest of the world is not keen on alleviating the sense of persecution of Muslims the larger Islamic population would not take kindly to any reformist movement . So atleast make sure that your children are given a decent secular education . Dont send them to the madrassas.Teach them religion (if you are religious) at home. Even though hindus do not have any formal religious education I havent been able to escape some level of indoctrination.So I can imagine what the madrassas do. As for me,I am a `hindoo`.I believe that the God will incarnate again and save hindoos and ofcourse Muslims too!! :-))
#239 Posted by aquaris on September 26, 2003 7:44:46 am
Takhleeq in the relevent fields of time...are recorded in history...
Muslim Scientist`s contribution in the field of Astronomy, Medicine, Chemisty..etc etc.. cannot be denied...its a part of undisputed history..
...there are recoded instances when... muslim ingeneuity ( Takhleeq) even made ships to move on solid earth..
correct me if wrong it was Sultan Mohammed Fateh...who used...animal FAT...and Oil...to move his war ships for about 30 Miles..on solid earth...
and that is Takhleeq.....isn`t it...
even the revival of scientific thought is Europe is a direct result of Mustim Tehkeeq..
...yes....ADMITIDLY after that....some where in time Muslims lost thread...
#238 Posted by scott on September 25, 2003 9:36:04 pm
Samin u probably approve of ur fellow gujju`s recent cleansing attempts in Gujjuland, so how many did u get?
#237 Posted by saminshah on September 24, 2003 11:03:07 pm
#236 by sadna on September
``People dying to jihadi bullets cannot keep waiting for the day to dawn when people will bother to read references and acknowledge them. ``
you cant get it.today lot of muslims waked up from their ``frog in wall`` mentlities.at least lot of muslims start to thinking that something going wrong in islam and this is because of internet age and media.media play powerfull roll in change ppl`s mentality and enlighten them
``People dying to jihadi bullets cannot keep waiting for the day to dawn when people will bother to read references and acknowledge them. ``
you cant get it.today lot of muslims waked up from their ``frog in wall`` mentlities.at least lot of muslims start to thinking that something going wrong in islam and this is because of internet age and media.media play powerfull roll in change ppl`s mentality and enlighten them
#236 Posted by sadna on September 24, 2003 8:10:54 pm
temporal, dost-mittar
Thanks.I am not `back`, whatever that means, I just happened by.
dostji, aisi koi baath nahin hai.
``In all fairness, when you have a chance to go through what`s currently on display at chowk, you would agree that there is a lot of negative being said about Islam, frequently by Muslims themselves. ``
People dying to jihadi bullets cannot keep waiting for the day to dawn when people will bother to read references and acknowledge them.
Thanks.I am not `back`, whatever that means, I just happened by.
dostji, aisi koi baath nahin hai.
``In all fairness, when you have a chance to go through what`s currently on display at chowk, you would agree that there is a lot of negative being said about Islam, frequently by Muslims themselves. ``
People dying to jihadi bullets cannot keep waiting for the day to dawn when people will bother to read references and acknowledge them.
#235 Posted by temporal on September 24, 2003 3:41:42 pm
Sohail
...enjoy your sojourn you lucky devil!
dost
not `negative`...long overdue criticial re-evalutaion:)
sadhna
...welcome back...the inference you draw are subjective also...blanket conclusions have this tendency to sweep off evertything in their wake...
..t
...enjoy your sojourn you lucky devil!
dost
not `negative`...long overdue criticial re-evalutaion:)
sadhna
...welcome back...the inference you draw are subjective also...blanket conclusions have this tendency to sweep off evertything in their wake...
..t
#234 Posted by dost_mittar on September 24, 2003 2:09:46 pm
sadna#233
Welcome back. In your absence, I had already expressed my regret if I was also somehow responsible for your leaving this site.
[But nonmuslims saying anything negative about Muslims or Islam, now THAT cannot be permitted, no Muslim can compromise on that.]
In all fairness, when you have a chance to go through what`s currently on display at chowk, you would agree that there is a lot of negative being said about Islam, frequently by Muslims themselves.
Welcome back. In your absence, I had already expressed my regret if I was also somehow responsible for your leaving this site.
[But nonmuslims saying anything negative about Muslims or Islam, now THAT cannot be permitted, no Muslim can compromise on that.]
In all fairness, when you have a chance to go through what`s currently on display at chowk, you would agree that there is a lot of negative being said about Islam, frequently by Muslims themselves.
#233 Posted by sadna on September 24, 2003 12:12:57 pm
pmishra2/AlephNull/etc
hi, just passing through.
Re the exchanges here wrt newsreports that people were naming their children Osama out of admiration for Bin Laden and the total lack of acknowledgement of these newsreports (posters instead obfuscating by assigning value judgements to your stating of verifiable facts).
IMO, there are some lessons here for Indians who fondly hope that civilians in Pakistan will one day make decisions more grounded in reality than their military.
Contrary to these hopes, IMO, this was a microcsm of a typical attitude:
1. Nonmuslims are free to get themselves killed by Muslims in the name of Islam, thats one thing. Hatred and violence is preached against nonMuslims, maybe. But nonmuslims saying anything negative about Muslims or Islam, now THAT cannot be permitted, no Muslim can compromise on that.
2. Irrespective of what is reported from multiple sources, uncomfortable realities simply donot exist until experienced by Pakistanis personally.
The lesson to learn is that unless the Pakistani `upper` classes personally suffer due to terrorist attacks, the hatred and violence propagated by their compatriots in the name of religion is not a problem they will effectively address(as opposed to others being forced to address it).
hi, just passing through.
Re the exchanges here wrt newsreports that people were naming their children Osama out of admiration for Bin Laden and the total lack of acknowledgement of these newsreports (posters instead obfuscating by assigning value judgements to your stating of verifiable facts).
IMO, there are some lessons here for Indians who fondly hope that civilians in Pakistan will one day make decisions more grounded in reality than their military.
Contrary to these hopes, IMO, this was a microcsm of a typical attitude:
1. Nonmuslims are free to get themselves killed by Muslims in the name of Islam, thats one thing. Hatred and violence is preached against nonMuslims, maybe. But nonmuslims saying anything negative about Muslims or Islam, now THAT cannot be permitted, no Muslim can compromise on that.
2. Irrespective of what is reported from multiple sources, uncomfortable realities simply donot exist until experienced by Pakistanis personally.
The lesson to learn is that unless the Pakistani `upper` classes personally suffer due to terrorist attacks, the hatred and violence propagated by their compatriots in the name of religion is not a problem they will effectively address(as opposed to others being forced to address it).
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