Waiting For Fatwa

dost mittar #133 ``I do not see any candidate for that today and organizations like Amnesty International and other human rights organizations will ensure that this does not happen. ``

You are beginning to sound like a fanatic yourself (and you are among the most balanced people on chowk, so I assume this is a temporary flub). What do you propose we do: kill every individual if he is caught saying the namaz or reading the Quran, or saying the azaan? The thing is: one needs to distinguish between what is criminal and what is not. To practice a religion is not criminal. Even if one thinks (as I do) that rituals (muslim, hindu, or any other) are simply a form of superstition, being rooted in human insecurity and fears. Not in a positive wonder and respect for creation, which is what true religion (any religion) is about.

what`s the big fuss about?

all this commotion can be solved if Muslims just brush off the Islamic chip on their shoulders, drop the religious arrogance that they display for no reason.

keep religion at home, between you and God, and that`s the end of it.


i ain`t reading no book about Islam, what the fuk is it gonna do for me?

faisaluno
ridiculing islam on chowk
bhai islam is not that fragile…it will survive…what is being done here and elsewhere is its interpretations and misinterpretations are being questioned and debated…

…don’t recall who called you a loser for siding up with romair or godot…and that is not the point here…ignoring a few misfits…the one thing common in most posters is their concern (if not love) of the state of affairs muslims find themselves in…this concern or love can assume different forms and shapes…the positive in this is that it is being more and more in the open…imho a necessary and long overdue step in the right direction (to shake off the status of the pseudo-mullah)…we…as individuals have to read and gather knowledge and to arrive at an understanding of the predicament and way out…individually first and later collectively…independently and not under the influence of some mullah’s defunct interpretation…

…good to note of your friend who returned...and will pray for his safety...given the clime there…know of so many who have….but for every one who went back scores more opted to leave and come here…however…the key is to care and act…do something about what ails to the best of one’s ability…notwhere fate takes one

…on a lighter note…in your opinion what would be the age bar to discuss these?

rgds,

t

SameerJB#111:
I am sorry to have offended you, I should not have used your or other chowkies’ names in my post.
But I do not apologise for the message in that post. You gave the examples of scientists working on cure for AIDS or for improving agricultural yields or of high-priced management consultants offering advice to ailing corporations. In all these cases, the person or the organization has recognised the problem and is quite willing to accept the expertise of the outsiders to help them with their problem. I do not see any significant evidence of this among Muslims. Here at chowk as well as among my Muslim friends, the general feeling is that there is nothing wrong with their religion. They would however readily agree that there is something wrong with the way most Muslims understand/practise their religion. The standard refrain among the moderate Muslims is that Islam is the best religion but Muslims are not its best practitioners. Given this situation, what are the chances of a majority of Muslims accepting reform from people who suggest, even in humour, that they should let quraan lie on the floor in a disrespectful way?
Whether or not Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion is irrelevant. The undeniable fact is that more than a billion people owe their allegiance to this religion and not a few of them are willing to die for it. If these billion plus have to live in peaceful coexistence with the other five billion humans on this planet, it is preferable that they accept as valid a version of their religion which is least confrontational in nature. This can only happen if the movement comes from insiders. I would here like to give the example of Muslim sufis in India whose message of devotion and personal faith was accepted by most of their coreligionists.
The only other option is surgery by outsiders. This cannot be accomplished by faint-hearted attempts, such as those now underway in Afghanistan. For that, you need the fanatic zeal and ruthlessness, which was characteristic of early Islam or of Ata-Turkism. I do not see any candidate for that today and organizations like Amnesty International and other human rights organizations will ensure that this does not happen.

Tahmed,

Please note that ``saminshah`` is some interactor who is trying to annoy me by stealing my nick...

Reformation and Scholarship

Manji`s book might be dismissed by some because it reflects the reference points of a young, gay Muslim woman in the west. But such dismissal ignores the fact that queerness exists and is repressed in the Muslim world. It would be instructive to research how queerrness exists in South Asia. In the complete non discourse of queerness that is taking place in the South Asian West, dont you think these realities and identities have to acknowledged eventually? Does the fact that mainstream western South Asian muslims on the whole would rather not engage in these issues and instead claim that religious scripture and not interpretation prohibits homosexuality, that one must be a heterosexual, male, mandated scholar to even be considered ``credible`` speak to a power dynamic that we are quite happy with?

Why are we not supporting the idea of these discourses-or are the identities of Muslims like Hamid, Temporal and Tahmed ``safe`` enough because they are male, straight, ambiguiously relatable to even extremists? (Hope you three dont mind my referencing you) In other words, writers like Manji arent ``desi`` enough, or ``muslim`` enough....I mean, are these the rationales of people who are normally able to see the complexities of every other political situation? Where do OUR denials and power jocking fit into this?

#98 by Romair on September 20, 2003 9:48am PT

“even if one looks at Prophet Muhammad from an athiest point of view, he was a brilliant politician, and a brilliant social scientist”

I am agree with you mohamad was as brilliant politician no doubt about it.
But if he was a brillian social scientist then believe me I am Albalt Instin and you are badshah Akbar

...when romair gets his a$$ kicked in any argument by other pakis, he drags india into it somehow...fookin hilarious....

PM #125

Very Christian of you!!! :-)

I went back to some more gay Christian sites (not the one you linked, unfortunately it didn`t work STILL) and read up some more to refresh my memory. No need to sum it all up here, but there were various explanations offered for whatever mention there is of homosexuality in the Bible and other religious writings: that the verses were about refusal of hospitality, sexual abuse, pederasty, or male prostitution. Suffice it to say that there are a myriad of ways in which anyone can justify any act in any scripture, but I feel that there is more indication that the scriptures disapprove of homosexuality than that they approve of it. (Holiness Codes in Leviticus: ``You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.``

Still, and not wishing to turn this into a religion and homosexuality debate, I am not bothered by the idea. If people want to be homosexual and religious, so be it. What I do think is that they have to accept the possibility that their behavior is not acceptable under the religion they wish to follow. That is all. There are plenty of things we all do that are unacceptable but still we do them. We take the risk that we may be sinning or offending God, given the information available to us. I believe most religions preach the idea that we are all sinners, but that God`s forgiveness is vast. If Gay Christians or Gay Muslims rely on the hope that God is more loving and tolerant than even we can imagine, sounds good to me. I could use some of that tolerance too!

Finally, I did not say: ``Islam has been around long enough and can take care of itself`` . I believe Romair said that.

The ideological nature of sectarianism: I do believe strongly in the current theory that separates Islam from Islamism, the political movement, which takes things out of context and uses them to justify actions that are politically motivated, not religious. Most people they attempt (and succeed in) to sway and brainwash are unable to see when they`re being used, or when Islam is. The Islam I follow certainly doesn`t say, ``Get up and kill someone because they`re different.`` I dont` believe Christianity says, ``Go and kill doctors who perform abortions.`` And Judaism doesn`t say, ``Go and murder Palestinian children and take over their land``.

Romair #98,
``Not to mention, Hindus carry out the highest no. of sucide bombings in the world.``

Please name one instance in the last 20 years where the LTTE has ascribed their
attacks to religion. Since they out-suicide-bomb everyone in the world, you have a
a rich data set. I urge you to find one instance. Also, please cite a reference that
tells you that Azim Premji is the only Muslim in his organization. Wipro`s org-chart
will do fine.

Many people have condemned the Gujarat riots in various fora. These people include
several Muslims of varying degrees of prominence. I do remember Azim Premji
being one of them. In any case, he doesn`t need to get his credentials authorised
by offering appropriate sound-bytes for the media. He is not Arundhati Roy.

Making tall claims in a public board, and shifting goal-posts when these claims are
questioned, can be given several un-charitable labels.

If anyone wants to understand why the world of Islam has become the world of terrorism, fanaticism, and ignorance, one can not do better than to get acquainted with Romair, Godot, and Bina_Shah. These are the best there are.

Of them, one believes in his quran because he finds it full of science, another`s enlightenment consists of looking like an American and appreciating the 12-head, the third is very irritated when anyone speaks of the need to reform Islam.

There is no point in blaming the mulla or the terrorist who slaughters innocent people. They represents only the tip of the iceberg.

Re Air Marshal

``Let people do and wear whatever what they want. ``

Herein lies the crux of the matter. A religion referenced regime does not allow that. By religious referenced I mean both on a political and a social level.

``I wish I could agree with you, but I am afraid I cannot. In the USA, people like Bush and Ashcroft check opinion polls before deciding what color tie they should wear. ``

One of the down sides of democracy, I`m afraid.

``Killing left and right. And making all kinds of ridiculous laws for people entering and leaving the USA. ``

Wars tend to get people killed sometimes, in case Risalpur didn`t quite teach that. As for laws, do you know how Pakistan treats people from its neigboring countries who wish to visit? I`ll assure you it is somewhat worse than the USA AFTER the `ridiculous laws` you mention. Apne girebaan mein pahle jhakiye.

``It will start discrimnating against its citizens on religion also. ``

You mean like having separate electorates and a provision that Muslim Americans and Christian Americans have different set of family laws?

``They are one of the most peaceful (and successful) communities in the USA, yet they are being bracketed in the same bucket as the terrorists. ``

With all due respect and sympathy, the country with the highest number of NSEER deportation orders is Pakistan. No other country has had citizens captured in so many different European countries with terrorist charges.

``What do Pakistanis have to do with them, other than the fact that they share the same religion?``

The fact that Pakistani public opinion, as gauged by polls and newspaper op-eds (English and vernacular), is as anti-Israel as the Palestinian-Hezbollah opinion.

``They have never been attacked before in their history. While they have literally attacked all over the world. ``

I bet they didn`t teach about the War of 1812 or Pearl Harbor at Sargodha. And probably taught that in WWI and WWII the Americans were the bad guys advancing on good ole Germany. Which brings up the moral question: if America attacked all over the world, why were you helping their military?

``Yet Ashcrot cannot even think of making fun of them, much less passing laws against them. ``

Elementary Constitutional lesson: Article I of the Constitution-Congresses passes laws, not John Ashcroft. Granted Congress is less likely to pass laws against people who did not fly planes into buildings

``This is the only way the American-Muslims can define a place for themselves in the American society.``

Wrong. The only way they can define a proper seat for themselves at America`s table is to stand with America against all her enemies, foreign and domestic.

God Bless America and her allies.

Bina_Shah #109
Bina: First, I regret the somewhat visceral reaction that led to some unduly unkind words. (See, am good Catholic! :) )
Second, the links have been reposted in 101. Hope you were able to have a look.
You write: ``As for my ignorance and intolerance, I`ve been to quite a few gay Christian sites and the refusal-of-hospitality explanation figures quite prominently when Sodom and Gomorrah are discussed.
Good on ya. But you still characterize this as a from of denial?? What is one to make of that? Well, this time I`ll let the action speak for themselves, or for the attitude behind them.
``I have to say I agree with Romair (wow, that`s a first) that it`s not Islam that needs a reformation. Muslims need to reform their behavior. Being poor, uneducated, patriarchal, and oppressed by military dictators and monarchies would make any population as warped as ours are - Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu.``
Bina, being poor, uneducated etc. is part of the problem. None of 19 highjackers (ok, Urstruly, assuming they were real) fit the description of the unwashed masses. Certainly, American hegemonic designs and an unjust global economic system contribute to the `warp`, as do military dictators viz. the local populace, but you would have to be blind, living in Karachi, to ignore the purely ideological nature of sectarian violence. Today it`s the Shias, who knows who tomorrow?
Does Islam need reform? If it is the intolerant Islam that many of my young pupils are being inculcated in then, hell, yeah, it needs reform like we need the sun! Statements like ``Islam has been around long enough and can take care of itself`` are not only irresponsible but, when examined closely enough, philosophically meaningless. Waht the heck is this Islam that has ``been around``? Some sort of extrinsic ``entity`` that may exist outside the mind? SR??
But to get back to the other issue, perhaps you can tell us what it was on those gay sites you found so unconvincing in their theological position viz. Sodom and Gomorrah. Thanks.
rgds,
PM

............ the poor unwashed masses do not need to be reformed - some of them need to be cured of their fears and superstitions, and the rest have to be protected from the deadly virus of political islam aka islamism aka fundamentalism ..............it is the putrid ideology, the nonsensical rhetoric of divine books, gabriel`s garbled message, and the decrepit deen itself that has to be reformed ............ either reformed, or vanquished .......... better religions have been consigned to the dust bin of history - sun worship, moon worship, cow worship, communism and the now nameless faith of the poor meccans before god entered the cave at hira .............

.......... like i said before, islam as a religion is just as good or bad as any other superstition and as long as its followers stick to ridiculous displays of debasing and humiliating themselves before an imaginary god it is okay - after all others make bigger fools of themselves ............ just look at that half-dead man in a white dunce hat who is being carried around the world so that people can kiss his hand ......... but political islam is another thing - it is the opposite of democracy, decency and modernity .......... and it must be stopped ............. for our own good ........

SR: #78: ``Let`s not bother with nor worry about Islam. Its been around long enough and will do just fine without our efforts of reform or abandonment. Let`s instead focus on the health (physical, mental, economic) and well being and of Muslims. God knows there is much work to be done.``

Rest assured, my comments to hamidm are all tongue in cheek. I am actually quite convinced he is a closet maulvi and a huge Pakistani patriot. And is playing hard to get, by not showing his true feelings. After all, he can quote more Quranic verses and seems to know more about ISNA ijtimahs than evern Naqshbandi. So no need to worry about that end.

I would agree with your comments on religion. We need to completely take religion (and its twin, secularism), gowns, hijabs, shorts etc. out of the debate. Let people do and wear whatever what they want. Unfortunately too many people have religion circling in their heads. Some trying to enforce it and some holding is responsible for all of our problems. It is quite difficult to convince them to stop bringing in religion everywhere.

``I agree about much of what you have to say about Ashcroft vs Abdul, but I think the dichotomy is not that clear cut. A lot of times it is the minority that excludes itself from the mainstream and not vice versa. Ashcroft only represents one of many faces of the gora bandar, just as hamidm`s ``unwashed mullah`` also only represents just one of many faces of the sand nigger.``

I wish I could agree with you, but I am afraid I cannot. In the USA, people like Bush and Ashcroft check opinion polls before deciding what color tie they should wear. So when they pass Patriotic bills and acts, it is done after getting the pulse of the people. I think they represent the silent (though still polite) majority.

My sixth sense tells me that the USA is one more major Al-Qaeda attack from going into a social transformation. I hope I am wrong. But I don`t think I am.

After this first attack, the USA was able to stay under control domestically, but it went nuts internationally. Attacking two countries. Killing left and right. And making all kinds of ridiculous laws for people entering and leaving the USA. It became one of the few countries in the Western world, which actually now practices open prejudice of non-citizens based on religion. There was actually a travel advisory in Canada, for Canadian-Muslims born in certain countries, from entering the USA.

What will happen if another attack occurs (which the CIA says in inevitable)?

I think there will be major changes domestically, in the USA, both legally and socially. It will start discrimnating against its citizens on religion also. The society will gradually turn against all Muslims, and on people who look like Muslims (Sikhs etc.). Muslim children will be harrassed at schools. Muslims will face some prejudice at work, etc. Already, an opinion poll indicates that a majority of Americans want Arabs to carry special cards. After another attack, this number is bound to go up exponentially.

Pakistanis (specially non-citizen Pakistani-Americans) will, and have, become innocent victims of the USA/Israel`s conflicts with the Arabs. They were not the hijackers. They have assisted like crazy in the War against Terrorism, to the point of turning their own society upside down. They are one of the most peaceful (and successful) communities in the USA, yet they are being bracketed in the same bucket as the terrorists. You must have noticed the amount of money Pakistanis have started sending back to Pakistan from the USA, due to such fears. This indicates a change in their mindset about their place in the USA society. Pakistani students are having a huge amount of difficulty getting study visas now. I know for a fact that very few are getting them. Even though this used to be one area, where the USA let everyone in, since certain depts. in its universities run on the money coming in from foreign students. And Pakistanis are being interrogated like crazy even when they enter the USA. Most Pakistanis I have met outside the USA, now are very reluctant to visit the USA. I, myself, only go for business. If a person like myself, who lived there for more than ten years, and has written software for the US military isn`t trusted, then what shot do other Pakistanis have? All because 19 Arabs, flew a plane into the WTC, due to their differences with Israel over Palestine. What do Pakistanis have to do with them, other than the fact that they share the same religion?

You must agree that this indicates a change in the mindset of the average American.

This shows that the USA society is in a state of social and emotional confusion - specifically about Muslims. This is why, one hears, all of a sudden, all these calls for Islamic reformation by the US society. 70% of Americans still believe a piece of ficiton like Iraq having connections with Al-Qaeda. This is no different that Muslims believing that the Jews attacked the WTC. This shows that the American population can be convinced of anything, at the moment. They have never been attacked before in their history. While they have literally attacked all over the world. The personality of a person changes when they are under attack. Specially, if they are not used to it. What if tommorow, Bush stands up and says that Pakistan is the same thing as Al-Qaeda? I am sure 70% of the Americans would believe it. Where would that put our Pakistani-American citizens and professionals?

What should be the Muslims (at least Pakistani Muslims) in USA`s counter to this?

Well they can keep fighting amongst each other. And keep trying to blame the Abdul Pakistanis and the gora Pakistanis and vice-versa. Or they can figure out that Ashcroft will not, and is not, differentiating between the two. In fact, the gora Pakistanis are the worst affected by his laws, since they are the ones who, uptil now, applied for student visas and drank merlots with Americans. The Abduls got in illegally and were rejected by the mainstream anyways in the USA. So nothing really changed for them. And they can handle the change much better than the gora Pakistanis.

However, the gora Pakistanis will eventually be treated like Abduls, and I think one can sense that they are fearful. They don`t know what to do. And they are thus blaming the Abduls for everything. Even though, the hijackers had more in common with the gora Pakistanis than the Abduls. They were merlot-drinkers.

Perhaps the American-Pakistanis, as a group, should take a leaf out of our Jewish friends` books. The Jews` equivalent of Abduls are not the most popular group within their community. They dress funny, and long hair and beards, have a lot of kids, and don`t even have to serve in the Israeli military. Yet Ashcrot cannot even think of making fun of them, much less passing laws against them. If he does, the whole Jewish community (both the Abdul Jews and gora Jews) will be on him, like a blanket on a bed. They all unite when attacked by an external power. In fact they nip the attack in the bud.

This is the only way the American-Muslims can define a place for themselves in the American society. Otherwise, when the next Ashcroft tsunami rises from the USA govts` offices, it will take out the gora Pakistanis along with the Abduls. Regardless of how much the gora Pakistanis try to explain to Ashcroft that they actually love everything he does, and that they hate the Abduls even more than he does.

The solution is, thus, to unite against the Ashcrofts of the world- domestically when he tries to pass Patriot Acts, and internationally when he tries to attack Iraq. Not to try to support him. Even if supporting him seems like the easier and more of a, ``fitting in`` option. The gora Pakistanis, by supporting him, are actually writing their own death warrant.

Hence my advice to hamidm, to cool down his yapping against the Abduls, was for his own benefit. I think its about time he declared truce with them, and joined ranks, against the Ashcrofts. Assuming, he isn`t a closet Abdul himself.

it is amusing to watch middle-aged pakis who in their lives have aspired to nothing higher than three car garages in lands where they are not wanted now, go through their midlife crises right in front of you. and hilarious their belief that ridiculing of islam on chowk will cause more food to appear on the table of a hungry family and more medicine in the mouth of a sick person residing in places like orangi. and comical as well, their assertion that i am a loser for agreeing with people like romair and godot even after all the personal success i have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy in future. and people like me are at least trying to make an impact. last year, one of my best friends who qualified as a surgeon after six years of ball breaking training, rejected a $200k per year job offer and returned to karachi because he wanted to pay something back. and amazingly, he finds time to go to a mosque once in while. and something else, my friend is shia and shia doctors are not exactly having a great time in karachi right now. so i will take you guys seriously when you guys develop some _ _ _ _.

Saw the author on hot-type today, not that impressive...

Given her past articles and TV appearances, this bit about being born again (in her own way) is hard to swallow, however in the end I suppose her book will speak for itself.

Flipped through the book, and the arguments seemed to be all rather tired and done. It`s 240 pages, though, so I`ll give her the benefit of the doubt and try a hand at reading it. The author does have a serious credibility problem when talking about the Muslim world and it`s problems, being a right-leaner on many ``Muslim`` issues and never having been to that part of the world. New-age Muslim, or a Straussian neo-con? Dunno...

Romair, bina (various posts, re reform): Can`t help but agree...but the fact is there is no one Muslim world, and our set of problems are in fact quite disjoint. Why the focus on Islam? The enemy, it seems, needs a name…been there done that.