Waiting For Fatwa

temporal #114 You (and, despite my respect for his balanced views, dost mittar too) merely add insult to the injury suffered by the poor people of Pakistan at the hands of the ``elite`` scum of Pakistan when you talk about reforming them. The poor people didnt convert Pakistan into a haven for arab terrorists, or a nest for domestic terrorists. Nor did they steal the nations wealth (as quite a few military patriots and politicians have done). This was the job of individuals from the ``elite``.

PS: As for all of us on chowk, we are merely shooting breeze on chowk - lets not get carried away by our own importance by talking about showing the light to others.

Bina_Shah #99: ``I have to say I agree with Romair (wow, that`s a first)``

Why is that a first?

Godotzilla vs. LotaPhobiaMan (continued)

LP #103 post 98 by romair is ...simplistic, mealy mouthed, apologitic ... inane arguments...utter gibberish...(Oh! Oh! Goodness gracious me, why cant we have) separation of mosque and state.

(Editorial comment: I am actually tempted to agree on that last part)

Godotzilla #110 (In pensive mood) The problem is that when you indulge with the ordinary then you yourself become the ordinary

(Editorial comment: Who would have thought the fire-spitting Godotzilla was so sensitive - reduced to interacting with mere humans on chowk? C`mon Godotzilla - let`s have some action. Tell us about LotaPhobia`s chimpanzee ancestors.).

#100 by PM on September 20, 2003 10:44am PT
”Samin Shah:
Although your #31 and #81 are a one-sided view of things, thanks for providing a good counterbalance to Armstrong, whom I`ve been reading quite a bit lately.
rgds,
PM”

which Armstrong you are talking about. Nail Armstrong (astronaut) for whom rumor spreading in Islamic world that he heard azan on moon and converted to islam and he denied hundreds times or Karen Armstrong who is leftist apologist for Islam and get 1 billion people strong market like some other western apologist.

Saminasha #113 Religion (islam or hinduism or whatever) is merely a fig leaf behind which hide what they are ashamed to show to the world - namely their primitive, reptilian mindset.

You can get mad at the fig leaf (as Hamidm does) or you can get mad at the reptilian mindset that hides behind the fig leaf (which is what superior minds like mine do - I am just kidding here, trying to copy Godot`s high and mighty style).

Religious extremists (hindu or muslim) share the same reptilian mindset, and the difference is only in the color of the fig leaf behind which the hide it. Gandhi was killed by a chap hiding his reptilian mind behind an orange fig leaf. Sikh and hindu villagers were killed in Jammu by chaps hiding their reptilian minds behind green fig leaves.

#98 by Romair on September 20, 2003 9:48am PT

“It is not Islam that needs reformation. Nor is it the intellect of Muslims that needs reformation. It is the economic systems of the Muslim countries that needs reformation. Once that happens, the people of those countries will reform Islam, by themselves.”

Sounds good but how it can be possible. when anyone try to reform in Muslim country or sociery then
Which one is major obstacle in the way?. isn’t it Islam itself. for example any amendment in
Islamic country ‘s constitution or any law first scrutinize by Islamic scholar to check whether it suit to Islamic way of life or not.
For example if mussaraff try to amend blasphemy low in Pakistan then lot of hue and cry from Islamic scholar because that step was against Islam.
In India if supreme court give verdict in favor of divorced old lady(shahbano) then why lot ot cry from muslims because reason is simple. it is unislamic.
So what ever you say but truth is Islam must be reformed (which I think not possible)
Because Islam is horror and first victim of it is Muslim.

dost-mittar
You said it! To be successful, a reformist must establish credibility with the believers. On chowk, a temporal or a tahmed would have much more credibility with the failthful than someone like hamidm or sameerjb.

bhai sorry to disappoint you but none of the folks here would be acceptable to the masses…first…because we are not taking of Pakistan…we are discussing Muslims..1.2 billion plus worldwide…and islam…

…chowkie muslims or former muslims are almost an elite group when compared to the masses…you know this better than I can explain that any reform to succeed has to come up from the grass roots…

…as Sohail hinted…in case of Pakistan and (I suppose) by implication in most muslim majority countries the man in the street or the country is a young, literate or semi literate hungry person…and the backlash that might develop would have scant regard for reform or renaissance…

…the best we can hope for is that these discussions between us here and other discussions elsewhere hit a chord with the youth of islam somehow…this word ‘somehow’ have used it advisedly…

apologies for not being here the past two days…

godot #71 good post in #96 you are hotting up…pls. cool down a little

Sohail # 78 a good sum up and another good one #105
seems as if by some premonition (no, not revelations) you were moderating while I was away;)

carry on the discussion folks...this is a learning experience

...t

#95 by mohar11 on September 20, 2003 9:35am PT
”#81 saminshah
//...My dear who told you Quran preaches good.it’s doctrine of hatred...//

you are like a man covered with honey walking up an ant-hill. Man - you are due for a big fat-a$$ fatwa”

“But Islam is different. You can`t have no fun with your gods. What kind of stupid religion is that! Man - more I know about the book and its followers, the more I am freaking out. You islamic morons - ditch the freaking book - right now.”

Here you are right. you can say me pessimistic because I some times wonder Islam itself cant
Be reformed. because what Quran always remind you never doubt this book. who ever doubt
Harsh punishment for him. it lad to one type of mantle slavery. sometimes infidels wonder
Why the had Muslim cant understand their logic in spite of lot of argument.
Reason incline in Quran which you can say brainwashed people. when you have to reform
Anything you have to say anything face to face. you cant reform Islam without it.
Or arguments like that this verses are out of contest because every true Muslim believe
Every verse directed by Allah and never out of contest and always eternal.
Or argument like real Islam is peaceful and this is radical Islam or militant Islam or
Because this argument can do nothing except confused Muslim become more confused.
There is no peaceful Islam or radical Islam but only one Islam which you see.
And see what happened to salaman rashdi or taslima nasrin or ibn warak who dare
To criticize Islam openly. there live become hell and never ending threat to their freedom and daily threat to their lives from true Muslims.

Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn `Abbas,
who said, ``Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the
Prophet said, `Don`t punish (anybody) with Allah`s Punishment.` No
doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, `If somebody (a
Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.` ``

May be this verse will enlighten you
and remove you confusion why moderate muslims don’t
Criticize Islam.

Godotzilla #96 vs. LotaphobiaMan (aka Hamidm) #92

LotaphobiaMan (in high pitched whine designed to tear eardrums to shreds): people like…godot represent the worst in islam - relatively sane and intelligent people who have become apologists for the mullahs

Godotzilla (with flames coming from his mouth) to Hamidm: No, I represent the best in Islam. It’s you who represent the worst in Islam...an Ibne-Warraq ...to me, its you who is ... an apologist for Orangutangs ... the best defence of a man cornered is to immediately label the attacker an “apologist”...this inane strategy may work with your chimpanzee followers, but not with me...you are too damn simple-minded and black-and-white for me to even bother with. ``

(Assorted squacks from yogiraj, mohar11, on sidelines)


Hmmmmmmmmm...this is what happens when I leave chowk for two days. Having had my bell rung by Senora Isabel (despite my earlier poetic appeals on this very board to her)..my internet connection was gone, one tree almost uprooted and requiring first aid. Dont mind if I pull up a chair, make myself comfortable, and watch LotaphobiaMan come back charging at Godotzilla.

correction:
in #105, I meant to write (correction emphasised) `` Trouble is, it`s never come close to realization, so let`s just hear it from the ordinary folks, unburdened by the weight of idealized religion, or no exposure to real, throbbing life.``

A better alternative to this book is,

``Believing Women`` in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur`an
by Asma Barlas

http://www.iifhr.com/womens%20website/interview_with_asma_barlas.html

PM - sorry your link doesn`t work. As for my ignorance and intolerance, I`ve been to quite a few gay Christian sites and the refusal-of-hospitality explanation figures quite prominently when Sodom and Gomorrah are discussed.

I have to say I agree with Romair (wow, that`s a first) that it`s not Islam that needs a reformation. Muslims need to reform their behavior. Being poor, uneducated, patriarchal, and oppressed by military dictators and monarchies would make any population as warped as ours are - Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu.

Sohail, #106

Yeah...I know...don`t know why...I haven`t moved anywhere...just search for ``Godot`` at Chowk...you`ll get a listing of all my writings, including My Identity...click on the author`s name and it`ll take you to my Bio...

The problem is that when you indulge with the ordinary then you yourself become the ordinary...I don`t have the time to waste...the ordinary has no sense of time and space, or the idea, as the post #99 clearly indicates...I have better things to do than lower myself and indulge in the bickering...I`ve known you long enough to know you`re clever enough to know what I`m saying...hope you make me rich with your gold-mine...!!!

dost-mittar #94:

Should credibility authorize one to reform or reformation skills make one credible?

Credibility is easy and can be achieved many ways such as populism and protestation. In Pakistan, Altaf Bhai, Maulana Diesel and Musharraf enjoy credibility within their own followers due to populism, religion and military respectively. Reform falls under the category of trouble-shooting, problem fixing, improvements and is result oriented. Most parents also enjoy great deal of credibility with their children. Does this mean that parents have all the solutions? What is the point then for schools, hospitals or institutions?

Without knowing the problem precisely, precise solution is not possible. So what is Islam? If it is a religion with moral ethos and spirituality or it is deen with blueprints for all matters of living? The solution depends upon the question. The world is too complicated and compartmentalized into different areas, which can not be treated as together by any credible or non credible group. In most cases specialty through education or inclination leads to problem solving rather than credibility.

A specialist in one area might not belong to the group who is to benefit most from his/ her specialty. Norman Borlag did not belong to strarving third world people to dedicate himslef for improving wheat crop yield per acre. Most of the scientists at Merck who have recently developed an experimental vaccine for AIDS do not suffer from AIDS; majority of them are not gay either. So what is the basis of their credibility? Skills, Skills, Skills!

Here hamidm, a management consultant, has used his specialty of trouble-shooting by providing a concise and precise solution to improve quality of life of Muslim children in post #46 and that too for free instead of charging 10K fee. Without the specialty of management consultant and experience in it, nobody could have done such a fine, concise and precise result oriented job. And how do we reward specialists? By personal attacking, by diagreeing without offering any rational counter solution, by doubting credentials and invoking irrelevent, easily acquired credibility. If he plays politics, praises this Imam or that, quotes couples of Verses from Koran and he becomes credible. What a shame.

People suffering from Nurture Acquired Deficiency Syndome are obsessed with reformation from credible NADS sufferers only. They do not mind if the credible one doubts man`s landing on the moon and many other scientific laws. More conspiracy theories he/ she proposes, more credible he/ she becomes.

Many Hindus including you have many times shown disrespect or disapproval of Hindu doctrine and dogma. How come rest of the Hindu crowd does not treat you like harijans as proud Muslims behave towards hamidm and me. I am not even a Muslim and not trying to become credible among Muslims, otherwise I am as familiar with all that gibberish as most; additionally I have firsthand practical experience with it. Now, definitely Islam ends where tip of my nose begins.

Have a nice weekend.

PM,

Indeed.

Sr,

A good probability for your scenario. Although perhaps the exploited young men and women who perform pointless and back breaking labor at some point would be happy just having the choice at an education and a decent standard of living. Besides looking for madrassa fodder, I dont see madrassas feeding or clothing anyone who doesnt agree with their ideology.

godot

Tried clicking your hot links but a message from Chowk Staff said that you`ve moved... Where did you move to?

Had a great laugh at the joke. However, let me add that on those rare occassions when I attend adult (read: boring) desi gatherings (I prefer youngsters` parties because they still don`t have their heads stuck so far up theirrear ends as old foggies do) I am not the polite desi by any means.

The point of my previous message was not to call some kind of cease fire, but to state that you guys were talking past each other and that the differences in background (generational, locational??) and writing stylewere impeding an understanding of the other`s perspective.


hamidm

Yes, the religiosity index has been going up for two decades and seems set to stay high for quite some time to come. But this is a middle-class phenomenon for the most part. By middle class (in the Paki context) I mean the socioeconomic range from the junior clerk at AG office all the way to the first Secretary. Above and below these levels no one is particularly interested.

The religiosity trend seems to be gaining momentum because the demographic cohort from the `Zina` years is aging and gaining more power and presteige. The older, more secular, foggies are retiring and kicking the bucket one by one and being replaced by theose who acquired the born-again fervor in their youth and are now taking over. This is the ghost of Zina-ul-Haq coming back to purify the Land of the Pure. But the dark ages may not continue for ever. The MTV generation that is following the born-again generation is not infected with the virulent variety of the germ. Infected they are, yes, as is everyone in that highly contageous environment, but not with the same toxic bug. The MTV anti-toxin (though having greater harmful side-effects of its own) is working. The trouble is that the MTV generation is only in a small elitist segment of the population, but it is enough to effect a change in the over all balance when its time comes. Small though this group maybe, it is going to matter because in the born-again generation it was this very segment that was won over by the orthodox and that is what tipped the balance.

But there are other far greater genies brewing in their bottles which when unleashed will create an altogether new set of crisis. I am referring, of course, to the coming tidal wave of the hungry and angry youth that will have neither education nor economic prospects. You are right when you say that the mullah will not distinguish between Romair/Godot and Abdul. Only, I don`t know that it will necessarily be the mullah. It could simply be the hungry and angry youth wielding a Klashnikov or a rusty knife. His anger will be indiscriminate and will be directed at anyone wearing a pair of trousers, reading an English newspaper and driving a Honda. That equally includes Godot, Romair, Sameer and hamidm.

...SR