Waiting For Fatwa

#98 by Romair
``A Muslim Bill Gates wouldn`t hurt either. I suppose Azim Premji could fit into that slot. However, he is too scared to open his mouth, even when Muslims get slaughtered in his own neighborhood. ``

What do you want him to do. Its the responsibility of every Indian to condemn the heinous acts and not just him. He is a businessman he has to take care of his business. What ever he can do to the poor, he is doing it through donations. How many times did you see the big Hindu biz houses protesting when the Kashmiri hindus were massacred.

``And he seems to be the only Muslim in his own company of 18,000 people (not much of a Muslim reformation). ``

Where do you comeup with the information that Azim Premji is the only Muslim in Wipro. Do you have the employee directory of Wipro? Or is it something that you just madeup. Why in the hell r u bent on showing that there only tiny percent of Musilms who r successful in India.

I am a software engineer myself and where i work i`ve seen many Muslim Wipro software engineers from India.I have seen more Muslim software engineers from India than the combined head count from Pakistan+Bangladesh. Don`t ask me if i counted them. This came from my Pakistani colleague who goes to prayers with them. Believe me its a big group.


``So, the Muslim world does not need a Ghazali, nor an Ata-turk, nor a Qazi nor a Rushdie, nor a Daniel Pipes, nor an OBL, nor even an Akbar Ahmad or Irshad Manji. They all have their faults and virtues. But they can only write books, and declare and fight unnecessary battles against each other. It makes good reading, but doesn`t really bring out a major change.

What the Muslim world needs is a Lee Kuan Yu. Someone who can reform the economy of his/her country, by grabbing it by the bootstraps and pulling it into the 21st century, economically. Once that happens, Islam will automatically be reformed in that countries. And once there is a role-model Muslim country for other Muslim countries, they will also start making progress.``

Why do you have to use ``Muslim World`` again and again. Why don`t we see ``Christian World`` ``Hindu World`` ``Budhist World`` in any of the posts. If some guy in Malaysia or Indonesia becomes next Bill Gates, what is it going to change for poor Abdul`s and Saleems in Pakistan and India. Its the responsibility of the individuals to change. Its the hard work of the individuals that makes them Bill Gates or Einstiens not the communities where they come from nor the role models. Having some Billionaires and Tech whizkid role models doesn`t change anything for Billion people.

..........post 98 by romair is exactly the kind of simplistic, mealy mouthed, apologitic approach that prevents the muslims from getting rid of the yoke of religion ............

............ the basic premise of these inane arguments is that islam forms the basis of political, social, cultural and spitritual values, and if somehow we keep on looking in the book we will find all the answers .......... and it is utter gibberish to suggest that somehow if we were to reform the economy allah will leave us alone to live our temporal lives in peace .............if money could have solved the problem saudi arabia, qatar, bahrain and the other oil rich fiefdoms would have become heaven on earth complete with ghilmans and all that ................. no sir, it did not happen!......... lee kwan was successful because, in addition to being a proponent of free markets, he was an authoritarian who did not let anyone, including god, stand in his way .......... mahatir was successful because he was able to put the lid on the islamic jinns - but now they are out in kelantan and we will see if his successor can keep them bottled up ..............

.............. the problem is not with islam as a religion, it is with islam as a ``complete way of life`` that most muslims have bought into and are afraid to challenge .............. they are scared kakaless because islam is long on politics, economics, sociology, sex educaiton, transportation, mathematics and every other thing, except spirituality, which is the domain of most other religions ............

............ it is not economics or sex education that stands in the way of reform, it is the basic concept of separation of mosque and state, man and mullah, and god and the lesbian writer in canada .............. until we put islam where it belongs it will continue to haunt us ....................

Bina_Shah #84:
Personally if Irshad Manji writes her memoirs I think I`d find that much more palatable than a general treatise about the politics, sociological, and cultural aspects of Islam and the need for the ``reformation``.
You seem to be suggesting that Islam is something less than a living, breathing religion that actually impacts ordinary people`s lives on the political, sociological and cultural level, in such a way as to allow them to comment on their experiences of this real Islam. Most of what we get from the scholars, including Akbar Ahmad, is the lovely, sublime, ideal Islam that supposedly existed some 14000 centuries ago, and if only followed `correctly, will lead to some Utopia. This may or may not be true. Trouble is, it`s never come close to realization, so let`s just hear it from the ordinary folks, unburdened by the weight of idealized religion, or exposure to real, throbbing life.
And no, Romair, globetrotting and ``meeting foreign dignitaries`` does not necessarily keep one up with the game/ broaden one`s outlook on life. Most often, especially in the case of extremists of all kinds, ``wherever you go, there you are!``. You can take the fundo out of the madrassah/Texas, but can you take the madrassah/Texas out of him?
rgds,
PM

``#93 by godot on September 20, 2003 7:52am PT

Sohail, #78

Read my My Identity (I think you’d like it). Combine that with my Writer’s Bio and you’d know everything about me, icluding what I look like.

Yours is a total conjecture about me! Based on your cogent argument in favor of gold-mining, I went along with it. God help me!!!

Your post reminded me of this joke:

At a desi party, two of our desi guys get into a religious argument. One desi makes a point, and the other makes a counter point refuting it. The first guy comes back with another point, the second guy comes back with counter point. A third desi guy, a very polite desi, was listening to the argument quite attentively. Not only that, when the first guy makes a point, the polite guy would look at him and say “You’re right”; and when the second guy makes a counter-point, the polite guy would turn his towards him and say “You’re right”. This has been going on for some time. The wife of the polite guy was watching her husband quite irritatingly. Finally, very annoyed at her husband, she says, “How could both of these guys be righ?” Our very polite desi thinks for a moment and says, “You’re right, too” (aap bhi sahee khetee hain)``

So Godot take a side so that neither you OR your wife will have a problem.

Do you or do you not agree...

Your daughter in law, if she is lovely, you have every right to ....

Adoption. Gosh.

Both Hamid and Sameer were right, You were, are, and unfortunately will always will be what you are. Pathetic.

Moral of the story is...... Answer. But if you cannot you are right too.

Yogiraj

Samin Shah:
Although your #31 and #81 are a one-sided view of things, thanks for providing a good counterbalance to Armstrong, whom I`ve been reading quite a bit lately.
rgds,
PM

Don`t know why chowk`s html engine sometimes screws up. The link (for Bina) in #88 is http://www.churchoffullcov.org/~logosmin/sodom.htm, the second,, (for Urstruly) is http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=330.
Cut and paste if the links still don`t work.

Bina_Shah #84: ``But if anyone is going to spearhead a reformist movement or at least a reclaiming of Islam - that sounds so much better doesn`t it? I would prefer it to be a modern moderate scholar like Akbar Ahmed or others like him who are well educated and well-intentioned.``

Here is my take on Islamic reformist movements. There doesn`t need to be any from the religious/intellectual side. And even if there are any, they will not make any difference.

It is not Islam that needs reformation. Nor is it the intellect of Muslims that needs reformation. It is the economic systems of the Muslim countries that needs reformation. Once that happens, the people of those countries will reform Islam, by themselves.

And even when such a reformation occurs, it will not solve the Homeland Security problems of the USA (which is why USA wants a reformation). Because those issues are political and not religious. They are related to land disputes, and not to religious disputes. Palestinians are the most educated and Westernized Muslims I have met. Yet they are in the center of the conflict, with the West. Afghans are the least educated and least Westernized Muslims I have ever met, yet they had no issues with the West (or East) until USSR decided to invade them, thereby setting up a vicious circle of attacks and counter-attacks.

In essence, wishing for an Islamic intellectual reform, which would then lead to a social reform in the Muslim countries is putting the cart before the horse, at least, in my opinion. Let`s take a look at certain things that all Muslims agree upon (unlike women`s rights etc., on which there is a lot of disagreement):

a) Bribery b) Lying: All mullahs, secularatics, men, women, kids etc. agree that bribery and lying are a huge sin in Islam. All schools of thought are unanimous on this. The punishment is Hell, for bribery. Can`t really have a worst punishment than that, can we. Yet Muslims and their states practice the largest amount of bribery in the world. I believe Bangladesh was the most corrupt nation in the world a year ago, in this area. And corruption is primarily due to bribery and lying.

So even though Islam is, ``reformed`` in this area of bribery, no one follows it. What guarantee is there that if Islam, ``reforms`` in other areas, anyone will follow those. I doubt they will. There will still be honor killings in feudal backwaters of Pakistan, regardless of how much Islamic legal reofrmation occurs. Primarily because this is a cultural custom and not a religious one. And Pakistan will still be amongst the most corrupt countries in the world, whether it works under a reformed or unreformed Islam.

On the other hand, when Muslims move to North America, they stop taking and giving bribes. They automatically get, ``reformed,`` without any reformation in Islam occuring. In addition, they are able to fit in (other than the ones hamidm seems to hang around with) into the Western society. They have their quirks and gowns, and hijabs etc., but on the whole, Pakistani Muslims are amongst the most successful and least criminal groups in the USA. Go to any jail and/or go to any university for proof.

They happen to be practicing the exact same Islam, yet their behavior is completely different.

So what needs to be reformed? Islam, Muslims, or the economics of their societies. All three, would be a good answer. However, by far the most critical would be the economies of their societies. Once Muslims countries have sound economies, they will get better education, which will result in more tolerance, which will automatically result in more enlightened interpretations of Islam.

But the reverse process will not necessarily work. After all, there are very poor Christian, Hindu and Athiest countries also. Infact Hindus, as a group, are quite a bit poorer than Muslims. Not to mention, Hindus carry out the highest no. of sucide bombings in the world. They don`t even follow Islam, what to talk of a reformed Islam. They should all be rich and happy. But they aren`t.

So, the Muslim world does not need a Ghazali, nor an Ata-turk, nor a Qazi nor a Rushdie, nor a Daniel Pipes, nor an OBL, nor even an Akbar Ahmad or Irshad Manji. They all have their faults and virtues. But they can only write books, and declare and fight unnecessary battles against each other. It makes good reading, but doesn`t really bring out a major change.

What the Muslim world needs is a Lee Kuan Yu. Someone who can reform the economy of his/her country, by grabbing it by the bootstraps and pulling it into the 21st century, economically. Once that happens, Islam will automatically be reformed in that countries. And once there is a role-model Muslim country for other Muslim countries, they will also start making progress.

I think had Bhutto not nationalized everything, Pakistan could have had that kind of economic revolution from 1970 to today. This would have happened regardless of how religion was being interpreted, in Pakistan. And by now, everyone would have been so educated and rich in Pakistan, that our interpretatins of the exact same Islam would have become enlightened, by default.

Now my hopes are on Malaysia and Muhathir. He is about the closest thing to a Muslim Lee Kuan Yu, there is, at the moment. People like him are needed far more than people like Ata-turk and Prince Abdullah, and even the, Islamic ``intellectual`` reformers (the genunine ones and the fake ones). A Muslim Bill Gates wouldn`t hurt either. I suppose Azim Premji could fit into that slot. However, he is too scared to open his mouth, even when Muslims get slaughtered in his own neighborhood. And he seems to be the only Muslim in his own company of 18,000 people (not much of a Muslim reformation).

So we should all get together and pray that the next Muslim messiah shows up in the form of a economically astute political leader. And not necessarily in the form of a book writer. After all, once one gets over the religious angle, even if one looks at Prophet Muhammad from an athiest point of view, he was a brilliant politician, and a brilliant social scientist. In 20 years his tiny persecuted group of followers were ruling all of Saudi Arabia, and had carried out an unprecendented enlightened social revolution. A potential of four wives may sound wierd now, but it was a lot less than the number everyone had at that time. Slavery may not have been completely eliminated, but slaves ate at the same table, and even became governors. Something that only happened in the USA 30 years ago. How many Black governors are there even today in the USA? And women`s word may have been not equal to a man`s in financial dealings, but women were given rights in 7th century deserts, that the West has only given them in this century. Only an enlightened social scientist could have done this.

If people would stop obssessing with Islam and secularism on every issue, they would realize that Muhammad was the ultimate ``Lee Kuan Yu.`` And while we cannot hope to get people who can talk directly to God, we can hope for our Lee Kuan Yus. And that is where we should be looking for Islamic reformation. Writers can be a decent supporting cast, but they can never pratically reform like leaders can.

#81 saminshah
//...My dear who told you Quran preaches good.it’s doctrine of hatred...//

you are like a man covered with honey walking up an ant-hill. Man - you are due for a big fat-a$$ fatwa.

++++

#86 hamidm2
//...........and just because something has been around for fourteen hundred years doesn`t mean it is right .............. let`s not forget that horrible hindooism has been around for ever, but that doesn`t mean we should stop eating cows and start worshiping them ...//

Exactly my point. The Islamis book is sh!t and so are most of Hindu books (Manu smriti or whatever). That`s why you don`t see horrible hindoos going round and round interpreting some god forsaken verse written by some rishi(hindu religious know-all man) under influence of whatever hallucinogenic grug he found in his ancient cave in Himalayas, some million years ago. ( When I go to the local temple, I find myself joking around with made up stories like why the shiva linga looks the way it does. My wife finds that funny, even though she insists I tell the jokes only after she has finished her prayer. For god`s sake - we are worshipping a pen!$ set on top a shape that looks like a pu$$y. It is fun. It is great. )

But Islam is different. You can`t have no fun with your gods. What kind of stupid religion is that! Man - more I know about the book and its followers, the more I am freaking out. You islamic morons - ditch the freaking book - right now.

Nah - who I am talking to. These morons are going down the spiral - and they are going drag the rest of civilized down with them. Who wants that.

Except for hamidm and saminshah - I would have no hope for any reformation in Islam.

Hamidm, #92

“people like…godot represent the worst in islam - relatively sane and intelligent people who have become apologists for the mullahs”

No, I represent the best in Islam. It’s you who represent the worst in Islam...an Ibne-Warraq whom no intelligent person or a publishing house worth its salt would give the time of day...to me, its you who is “relatively intelligent”, an apologist for Orangutangs who think they are “intelligent” and ``enlightened``...of course they are, relatively speaking...!!!

The best defence of a man cornered is to immediately label the attacker an “apologist”...this inane strategy may work with your chimpanzee followers, but not with me...you are too damn simple-minded and black-and-white for me to even bother with.

#94 by dost-mittar
//...Gandhi was much more successful in reforming Hindus than was Raja Ram Mohan Roy ...//

Gandhi or whoever reformed hindus were not clutching at a book and re-gurgitating tired old verses or shlokas as the case may be. They frontally attacked the horrible practices and customs hindus followed for generations. They confronted the hindu-mullahs(freaking pundits and other higher caste thugs ruling the society) right in their face. They never pretended to find answers for everything from inside a book. That`s precisely the reason why the masses heed his message because they never believed in any books either.

The world of Islam is different. The book is everything. If you kick the book - you get fatwas and you are dead and nobody would care. If you don`t kick the book, you are back to ``re-interpreting`` old verses which no matter how you spin, is not going spit out a message that will fit the modern world. Spinning the book is not going work.

How do you reform Islam? It`s a tough one.

Bina_Shah:
``But if anyone is going to spearhead a reformist movement or at least a reclaiming of Islam - that sounds so much better doesn`t it? I would prefer it to be a modern moderate scholar like Akbar Ahmed or others like him who are well educated and well-intentioned.``

You said it! To be successful, a reformist must establish credibility with the believers. On chowk, a temporal or a tahmed would have much more credibility with the failthful than someone like hamidm or sameerjb. Gandhi was much more successful in reforming Hindus than was Raja Ram Mohan Roy (whose Brahmo Samaj succeeded only among the elite of Bengal) because Gandhi`s idiom resonated with the Hindu masses.

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re. Bina: #56: Kind of like those gay Christians who say that the verses in the Bible about Sodom and Gomorrah were trying to point out the sin of refusing hospitality to your guests.
Lady, you are simply airing your ignorance here, if not prejudice. Unconvinced? Click here.
As for your ``assuming that she doesn`t know what she`s talking about, I am going by the statements I read in interviews about her where it was claimed she renounced her faith at age nine and has now found her way back after joining the gay Muslims group.``
Why do you assume that in choosing to renounce her religion at 9, she remained ignorant of it?
re. I`m sure there are hundreds if not thousands of gay Muslims in every country, but she`s dreaming if she thinks she can find some compatibility between Islam and homosexuality, an argument could be made that it is only exclusive homosexuality that Islam prohibits. (Given the tribe survival exigencies of 8th century Bedouins, who can argue with that logic?). We keep hearing about how much a religion of nature (deen-i-fitrah) Islam is. Well, guess what! Although Urstruly will again ignore this inconvenient fact, 433 of the 500 or so species of mammals in the London zoo were found to exhibit same-sex cuddling up. (Incidentally, Urstruly, following from our last exchange on this issue, here`s another reason why homosexuality would actually help achieve some of the social ends you seem to think it undermines.)
In a discussion I once had with dost-mittar sahib, he pointed out that homosexuality would never be permitted in Islam, although the religion promises men ghulmans (sexy boys) in the hereafter. I don`t agree! If you look at Islam, it really is a very practical religion, with no hang-ups about sex per se, as does, say Christianity. Prohibitions, restrictions and taboos have pragmatic basis, not some abstract moral ones. In other words, if you could have 72 houris on earth without causing social discord, I dare say you would pretty much find no objection to it. In fact, the Qur`an, in advocating the use of ``that of you right hand`` (i.e, your concubines) if not satisfied with your four wives, does exactly that IMO.
But what do I, a mere product of an English medium education, not blest with the opportunity to study at a Madrassah the intricate dynamics of how, at least in the twentieth century, we may interpret the Qur’an as being opposed to concubine-keeping, or to what would be regarded as pedophilia these days. Allah (and echoboom’s learned heroes) indeed knows best!
Rgds,
PM

#46 by Hamidm

Couldn`t have said it better. Now this is stuff they ought to teach in dinyaat classes :)
A couple of additions...

... Stay a mile away from people who call the opposite sex `brother` or `sister` routinely

...When asked to contribute to some fund for Palestinian education, express regret that your last dime was sent to the American Jewish Congress lobbying institute

...When pressured to go to some special community event at the mosque, politely inform the `brothers` that you have plans that evening at the local gentlemen`s club

#85 by Saminasha“Saminshah,

”I`m afraid my I and my nick have been here a lot longer than you have. So your attempts at co-opting it are pretty obvious. And truly arrogant, since they dont live up to mine.””

Madam samin is my real name not my nick. Are you think I choose my name because of your nick?. When I register at chowk I not even know here is already one old chowki with my ghost name. What you are suggesting me for sake of your nick I have to change my real name. this is truly arrogant thinking.

Amma Romair sahib app to Air Marshal hey.kabhi bataya bhi nahi