Waiting For Fatwa

I agree...

Down the line somewhere.....Muslim thought got stagnated...

......and instead of TEHKEEQ and TEKHLIQ ......and hence TAMEER....they are bogged down by..

..TANQEED.....and .TAQLEED....resulting in TAKHREEB.....

Perhaps the main thing Muslims need (I mean Muslims and not Islam), is that they need to put faith in institutions and allow them to develop. I would assume that this is more likely to occur within the `nations` framework rather than the `Islamic` framework.

mohar11: your post would carry weight if it reflected what is there plainly to see on chowk. the fact is that an disproportionate number of indian posters have only one thing to write about - the evils of pakistan and/or islam - while never touching on their own problems. a reader from mars reading chowk would think india was some kind of UK, where tolerance and rule of law prevails. pakistani posters on the other hand routinely take apart issues in pakistan, and also have non-political issues to talk about.

see for example temporal`s previous article which is exactly on the subject you say pakistanis are unaware of - 9/11. not only was temporal taken to task (by a number of pakistani posters, myself included) for what seemed like his making ben laden to be some kind of a hero (until he clarified that that was not his intent). the entire board has nothing but denunciations of 9/11. and there is no shortage of posts from me to that effect on that board either. and that is just one board - look elsewhere on chowk and you will see that it reflects what i say in the first para. above. on the other hand, while you (to your credit) acknowledge the points i made about the ``pot calling the kettle black``, look at the angry (including namecalling) reaction of your compatriot, mr. rsaxena.

thus: i have no problem someone (regardless of religion or nationality) engaging in thoughtful criticism of anything - whether it is the work of islamist extremists, or hindu extremists; or whether it is crimes committed by ordinary but benighted people in any society. my problem is simply the large proportion of indian posters who seem to have only one thing on their mind - denigrating pakistanis or muslims as a community. this is just another form of the primitive mindset that i refer to in my previous sentence, and deserves to be exposed for what it is.

ferozk, re #193
Good thoughts on why the reform must, and can only, take place from within. It would help, IMO, to keep in mind the forces from without that undermine, perhaps inadvertedly, this process of reform.

PM #190 OK then, we end this discussion with:

Peace, Shalom
And (all together now)
Salaams, Detente and Om.

SameerJB:
[The only reform worth calling a reform is tipping the balance in other direction which requires reducing the influence of religion in practical life. Removing it from political life would be one good step in this direction. But the so-called reformers from inside must remember that the natural side effect of reforming a religion to current level of sociological necessities for progress, peace and prosperity would be a reduction of the power of allah over affairs of humans as happened in western societies since enlightenment. ]

True. But how to do it? I saw it happening in India during the the first quarter century after independence. So, it is not an impossible task. The success of the Ayotallahs in Iran and of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan invigorated the faithful everywhere. Now, with the 9/11 trauma, Muslims are introspecting like, perhaps, never before in their history. Where it will lead them is unknown but the early indications are not that promising. Aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya!

re: Temporal # 63

Sorry for the delayed reply.

T, Islam is not in the corner per se as much as it is bogging down in its own contradictions. In that sense, there is a perceptional problem and you are right, issues need to be debated. Considering that a theogical reform is out of the question given the dogmatic nature of the religion, then reform has to be considered in those areas, which influence the greater religion itself. This is, and has to be, a transnational reform and it has be undertaken at political level and the political center of gravity of this problem is the nation(s), which are preaching a militant version of Islam.

The root cause of this militant Islam is more likely to be the source of funding, which keeps the militant version of the Islamic agrument alive. The support mechanism for this form of Islamic indoctination needs to be traced and stopped and this suggests that the problem is not so much as one of interpretation, but of state support for that particular interpretation. Islam and its political doctorine cannot exist in a vacuum and that vacuum is filled by the states - political actors - which support its xenophobic ideas. Therefore, the acid test is to seek political reforms in those nations, which are geared towards the pluarality of opinions and tolerance of religion not only in politics, but also within the mainstream religious view of the minority perspective.

In a simple sense, what is being advocated here is nothing short of a religious civil war within the Muslim nations and the only way, such a reform is possible is by changing the paradigms of the state behavior as they are presently practiced in Muslim countries. There has to be a political confrontation of ideas, because existing on the basis of modus vivendi is no longer possible. Again, it must stressed that such a reform movement has to come within the ``the country`` and cannot be imposed from outside regardless of the good intentions. To impose such a condition via external pressures would simply ignite the insidious logic, which favors the clash of a civilizational conflict concept.

Parentically speaking, I have no aspirations to be a leader of any movement.

Ciao

Great post, Anil, your #191!

Sameer JB (170) and Dost Mitter:

The rot, like reform, comes from the institutionalization. In Hinduism the rot came from institutionalization of castes, in Buddhism it came Monasteries and Monks, and in Christianity from all powerful church. Castes gave Brahmins control over knowledge who used it to control the society, Monks would not eat unless it is what they had begged during the day, Church fought science and rebellious clergy fed it too. A sex starved King of England wanting to divorce old to marry new, created Church of England so that it can allow his divorces, and marry him. Reform is a genie, this minor tweaking for King`s convenience, got the genie out, and ended with the separation of the church and state.

In Islam, Mullahs and Madarassas are the institutions who feed on each other and therefore, have been resisting reforms. For others, Hamidm included, the wrong part of the Book was purged and washed down from his within a long time ago with each glass of whisky. They cannot wait to reach Jannat for 39 (??) houries.

BTW there are other models of reform. Among other, two contemporary reforms were instituted by Mao and Lenin that changed their societies.

In present time, within and without, the separation between church and state are not the only basis. The separation between within and without is very small due to the fact that travel and communication is so much faster. The news and information travels more quickly than Mullahs and Madarassas would like it to be. Also mullahs and madarssas are probably more worried about Baywatch and CNN than missiles. For Missiles, their Jihad gives an answer, but for Baywatch and CNN.....???

ANIL

tAhmed,
Get off that branch already. I never said you`re not insightful. Why, you offer insight that Freud would probably kill for (to have you on his couch, I mean.)
Waisey, you DO surprise me every now and then.
Peace.

.........truth hurts and there is a lot of truth in mohar`s and rsaxena`s posts ......... ouch! ......... it pains me to see the ummah looking for lame excuses ............ it really doesn`t do any good to point out what is wrong with the hindus - that`s why we call them the horrible hindoos ............ it doesn`t solve our problem, does it?

rsaxena #183 you quote me as writing ``vast scale murder of unborn female children by parents seeking boys`` and respond ``....wake up retard, this is happening all over south asia, including pakistan... ``

you are entitled to hold whatever opinions you like. you are not entitled to create your own facts. it is a fact that sonograms have been abused at a massive rate in india to ``seek and destroy`` unborn female children - to a level where the vast ``bride deficiency`` has become a major problem that has been reported on in the washington post, among other places. Such killing of females simply has not happened in pakistan.

Ironically, in your anger, you also missed the point of my post (that indian chauvinists like you are obsessed with pakistan while papering over the evil taking place within india) and unintentionally illustrated my point. Simply calling me names wont change that fact either.

rsaxena #183 you quote me as writing ``vast scale murder of unborn female children by parents seeking boys`` and respond ``....wake up retard, this is happening all over south asia, including pakistan... ``

you are entitled to hold whatever opinions you like. you are not entitled to create your own facts. it is a fact that sonograms have been abused at a massive rate in india to ``seek and destroy`` unborn female children - to a level where the vast ``bride deficiency`` of millions (35 million is the figure i recall from the wp article) has become a major problem that has been reported on in the washington post, among other places. Such killing of females simply has not happened in pakistan.

Ironically, in your anger, you also missed the point of my post (that indian chauvinists like you are obsessed with pakistan while papering over the evil taking place within india) and unintentionally illustrated my point. Simply calling me names wont change that fact either.

#180 by tahmed32
//..We are all well aware of the mess that exists in hindu society..//

You got that right mian. Hinduism has so much sh!t that I don`t know where to start. The thing is - Hindus were very much aware of it. They have realised it years ago. That`s why they don`t give a flying fk about no freaking book allegedly written by some half-a$$ prophet/god-man some zillion years ago. Hindus know about Ram`s cowardice and over-sexed Krishna`s orgy and million other gods/goddesses who were supposed to be so wise. Hindus worship a freaking pen!$, for god`s sake - that`s as low-class as it can be, isn`t it?

The question is - when are you islamic morons going to wake up and smell the sh!t that is so spread out inside islam? I mean the whole world smells the stink!! All the bride burning, girl-fetus killing, christian bashing that hindus do is evil - but nothing compares to flying a plane into building full of people. Nothing compares to the book that exhorts the followers to kill kufrs. And yet you morons upend your collective a$$es five times a day worshipping the same book that propagates such hate against humans who happen to be born outside the great faith of islam. Nothing compares to this bullsh!t.

The whole world is cowering fearing what the next evil catastrpophe is being planned by islamic thugs that would be let upon us sooner or later. Nobody is afraid of the evil horrible hindus and their stinking hinduism, are they? Hindus are not being booked by NSEER and being deported like cattle, are they mian?

The biggest evil of all is that people like you refuse to acknowledge this bare fact. You guys have no courage to face up to reality.

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Islamic Law, pol. & econo.