Waiting For Fatwa

SR,

.......... you are so right - those of us who grew up in the sixties and seventies have seen a kinder and gentler face of islam that ``youngsters like romair and godot`` are totally unfamiliar with ............. when i was going to uet in the mid seventies you could not fill up two rows at jumaa prayers, now the bearded bufoons spill out into the streets ........... the evil of religion lurked under the surface and once in a while erupted against ahmedis and other infidels but, by and large, god`s soldiers were kept in check ............there was another side - communists, atheists, hedonists, charse, bhangis, kanjars and ordinary muslims who could barely recite one kalima ...............

............ what distresses me is that there is no ``other side`` now ............ something happened during zia`s ``zin-bil-jabr`` (do i have your permission to add this term to my vocab?) ............ what?.......... it seems like everyone discovered and accepted islam and all disssent came to be viewed as apostasy ........ finally after fourteen hundred after badr years the deen was complete ............ people like romair and godot represent the worst in islam - relatively sane and intelligent people who have become apologists for the mullahs who, unbenowest to them, will devour them one day ...........if ashcroft can`t tell the difference between abdul and hamidm, the mullahs won`t differentiate between romair and hamidm when it comes to beheading heretics and apostates ..............

Sohail, #78

Read my My Identity (I think you’d like it). Combine that with my Writer’s Bio and you’d know everything about me, icluding what I look like.

Yours is a total conjecture about me! Based on your cogent argument in favor of gold-mining, I went along with it. God help me!!!

Your post reminded me of this joke:

At a desi party, two of our desi guys get into a religious argument. One desi makes a point, and the other makes a counter point refuting it. The first guy comes back with another point, the second guy comes back with counter point. A third desi guy, a very polite desi, was listening to the argument quite attentively. Not only that, when the first guy makes a point, the polite guy would look at him and say “You’re right”; and when the second guy makes a counter-point, the polite guy would turn his towards him and say “You’re right”. This has been going on for some time. The wife of the polite guy was watching her husband quite irritatingly. Finally, very annoyed at her husband, she says, “How could both of these guys be righ?” Our very polite desi thinks for a moment and says, “You’re right, too” (aap bhi sahee khetee hain)

SR,

..........sorry, i was interrupted by the tv repairman ...... he was worse than the marauding medina muslims raiding the miserable meccans` caravans - 400 bucks for half an hour! ...............

......... anyway, i have no idea where i was, but i must say that folks like bina who think the west is on some kind of a crusade to discredit islam and is ``appointing`` heretic writers to do their dirty work, are terribly misguided ............ another extreme example of a schizophrenic ummah which refuses to acknowledge that the fault might be in themselves that they are underlings .............all this talk about ``true`` islam and all this kaka about the ``perfect`` deen being misused, misunderstood, misapplied, misinterpreted is just that - kaka!.............it is like the commies whining about ``real`` communism being a utopian miracle that was hijacked by ``revisionists`` ........ nonsense!

...........and just because something has been around for fourteen hundred years doesn`t mean it is right .............. let`s not forget that horrible hindooism has been around for ever, but that doesn`t mean we should stop eating cows and start worshiping them .................

........... anyway, i have seen a steady increase in religiosity, intolerance, bigotary and obscurantism among the younger generation and this scares the living daylights out of me - if somone doesn`t do something about it we are headed for another bloody fourteen hundred years of idiocy ............ hence my primer for ijtehad at home - the business of saving souls starts at home .......... i am proud to say that i have saved numerous nieces and nephews from being swept away by the darkness of a resurgent islam ............

Bina/Romair,

But any form of dissent or critique that doesnt follow the gymnastics of bending limbs, torso and head in every possible direction so that one does not ``offend`` or seem ``angry`` etc. is considered by many Muslims to be anti Islamic. The precedents in which a prof. questioned belief or obvious, inrefutable fact and were punished for it. are staggering-in all disciplines. I can sympathise with Manji in that she has probably grown up to interrogate ideas in a very direct and unapologetic manner.

Yes, I agree, Manji probably found a publisher because she is writing this book at a very specific geo-political point in Western-Eastern history. I dont particularly find this a problem because unlike S. Qutb, Manji is not calling for the destruction of a hemisphere. And if critics think that engaging with issues of sexuality will destroy the Muslim world, I`ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell to you for a song! Finally, I hope that it is acknowledged that the Muslim publishing world is no slouch when it comes to publishing ideas that are less interested in discussing ideas and more in enforcing an religious ideology-an industry that can be considered the West`s equal.

In addition, I meant the term Islamic canon quite intentionally; because what is being implied is that a follower of Islam must be an approved (approved by whom?) and ``accepted`` (accepted by whom?) scholar to write about it. This adherence has shut out almost all women who arent accredited at Islamic centers of scholarship, who dont agree with current interpretations of Islam and yet are religious scholars, are not ``educated`` in the correct doctrinations because they dont agree with particular ideologies, etc. Isnt it coincidental that almost all of these people tend to be women who support alternative interpretations?


Saminshah,

I`m afraid my I and my nick have been here a lot longer than you have. So your attempts at co-opting it are pretty obvious. And truly arrogant, since they dont live up to mine.

Air Marshal Romair Sahib,

Well said, especially your last paragraph! Personally if Irshad Manji writes her memoirs I think I`d find that much more palatable than a general treatise about the politics, sociological, and cultural aspects of Islam and the need for the ``reformation``. Like you say, I think she doesn`t have the scholarly background to do a good job on the latter, but her memoirs would probably make for interesting reading.

And I agree with you about the west appointing people who will ``reform`` Islam. This irritates me to no end. As I said to Temporal it`s not so much Islam that needs a reformation as Muslims that need a lobotomy. But if anyone is going to spearhead a reformist movement or at least a reclaiming of Islam - that sounds so much better doesn`t it? I would prefer it to be a modern moderate scholar like Akbar Ahmed or others like him who are well educated and well-intentioned.

SaminaShah/BinaShah:

Same last names. A lot of Shahs on this site.......

Irshad Manji, whatever I have seen of her, seems like a reasonable person. She is on TV all the time. I think she is genuinely trying to do something. Though her unorthodox background gives her a lot more prominence than it should. Had Haroon Siddiqui, the Muslim editor of Toronto Star, written such a book, I doubt anyone would have paid attention. Primarily because he is not a female, and is not gay, and fits more into the traditional Muslim looks. Even though, he probably knows ten times as much about the subject as Manji.

I think anyone and everyone should be welcomed to critique Islam and Muslims. This is always health. Provided they have two characterisitcs:

a) They genuinely want a constructive change and are thus well-meaning, i.e. they are not in it to create controversy and sell themselves and/or are not driven by the hatred of Islam
b) They have very good knowledge of the subject

Unfortunately, every prominent person commenting on Islam at the moment, seems to lack at least one of these qualities. The prominent maulvi politicians, I think, are using Islam to sell themselves to the people. Contrary to other people`s views, I think these guys like Fazl and Qazi etc., have seen more of the world than the rest of us. They regularly meet senators and what not. So they do know how Islam should fit in to the world. However, they distort it deliberately to suit their political needs. So they have b, but don`t have a, and hence distort b deliberately.

The other group are the Western writers, who are now trying to make a killing on this subject. This includes desi writers trying to sell to the West. Controversial books about Islam are sure shot hits, right now. These people would include individuals like Salman Rushdie etc. Some of them have b, but are using Islam to sell themselves also. For example, Rushdie is in the same league as Rohinto Mistry, yet everyone knows Rushdie - primarily because of the controversy he created around religion. I have no idea why these individuals are considered the, ``reformers`` of Islam, by the Western media. A person who sells a lot of books is a good writer and a good businessmen. Nothing more. He is not an expert on religion and its related international affairs (even if he/she is well-meaning).

Irshad Manji, without having read her book, I think falls into a different category. She has a, and is probably genuine and well-meaning, but doesn`t seem to have the knowledge- base to argue her points on religion. At least that is what I have seen in her discussions.

What is needed is someone who can appeal to the West and is well-known and accepted there, and is well-meaning, and has the knowledge, and does not hate Islam due to personal reasons. No one like that comes to mind at the moment. Perhaps Imran Khan and his wife should write a book or two.

``That the writer disclaimed Islam at the age of ``nine`` says what-that she was able to think about her ideas at nine?``

Samina, of course at nine a child can think about her ideas. Hopefully her decisions and thoughts will change by the time she reaches thirty nine, but I`ve seen cases where it doesn`t!

Anyway, the point is that the author said she renounced her religion at nine and then came back to it through a gay Muslim group to show her journey in and out of Islam. And that information is pertinent to me. I disagree with Temporal that personal information about a writer is irrelevant to their message. It is very relevant. Would we take Edward Said the same way if he were a Japanese man? How about Karen Armstrong, who used to be a Catholic nun? What does Asma Hassan`s background say about her motivations and perspective as a ``feminist Muslim cowgirl``?

Don`t please assume that everyone has blinkered vision and a closed mind set, just because I don`t take things at their face value for the sake of looking politically correct.

#58 by ammaroo

i hear u saminshah... nazaryahatkhan

``few questions tho.

if muhammad PBUH was such a bad person, as saminshah believes him to be, why did he have to come up with a whole book which preaches good. if all he needed was women and money and power, he cud`ve had all that without doing much. he was born in a pretty influential tribe of arabia and born in a society where women were treated as peices of meat anyway. so y go thru all the pains. n y not accept riches and money and power by abujehl wen he was offered all that to give up preaching. y teach ppl not to steal, not to tell a lie, to love ur kinsmen, respect of neighbors and parents. y introduce a system of charity for the poor and make it part of the law that him n his family will not receive any. y preach all that is common to all moral codes, at such a big risk to his own life and the life of his loved ones. the life at medina was relatively easier and with lots of power yes. but the struggle that led to it was full of pain and misery. y tell arabs they are not superior to any race in the world. y tell a illiterate nomadic ppl the importance of education.``

Hey man are you serious.You told me “why did he have to come up with a whole book which preaches good.” My dear who told you Quran preaches good.it’s doctrine of hatred.if Quran is
Good book then muslims are not first victim of islam.I can give you lot of example.I think you
Are confussed muslim and sometimes you read Quran but cant understand it’s massages.

“he was born in a pretty influential tribe of arabia and born in a society where women were treated as peices of meat”
this is propaganda of islamist about so called dark age of Arabs before mohamad.if women
treated like that then how can Mohammad’s first wife khadija was rich business woman. and Mohammad is jus houseman that time.Unto khadija lived mohamad didn’t dare to marry onther woman because he was jus parasite .but jus khadija died and mohamad open door of his harram and start collect woman not respect of which source.ofcource with divine help of Allah when needed. and if you want to see treatment of Islam to woman then jus see alaround you in world then even you don’t had to read Quran.in my post 31 read again.

And here is more example for you.

There is another story that makes the same point. A lady set her slave-girl free. When informed about it, Muhammad told her: “Had you given her to your maternal uncle, you would have a greater reward” (shahi muslim 2187).


So the morality that Muhammad taught on the question was not particularly heroic, but it agrees with the general practice. Nor was it really revolutionary. The emancipation of slaves was not a matter of justice but only of charity. And even then it should not conflict with the well-being of the family of the believer.


In jihAd, all arms-bearing males of the enemy are killed, but Muhammad “disapproved of the killing of women and children” (shahi 4319). They are generally taken prisoners and then enslaved or sold or released after ransom is exacted. But if they are killed, no song need be made about it. Sa’b b. JassAma said to Muhammad: “Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of polytheists during the night raids. He [Muhammad] said: They are from them” (shahi 4323).

and what you say “introduce a system of charity for the poor and make it part of the law that him n his family will not receive any”. this massager of Allah get war booty from war suffered people as slave


Essentially, the spoils belong to Allah and His Apostle. “They ask thee concerning the spoils of war. Say: “The spoils of war are for Allah and the Apostle” (QurAn 8:1). But since the mujAhid does not live by Allah alone, and also as a favor and extra incentive, he is given a share in it.

Narrated `Abdul `Aziz:
Anas said, `When Allah`s Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, `Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.` He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, `Muhammad (has come).` (Some of our companions added, ``With his army.``) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, `O Allah`s Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.` The Prophet said, `Go and take any slave girl.` He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, `O Allah`s Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.` So the Prophet said, `Bring him along with her.` So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, `Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.` Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her.``
Thabit asked Anas, ``O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?`` He said, ``Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her.`` Anas added, ``While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet .(shahi bhukhari 1.367)
Here gr8 mohamad get beauty from suffer ppl thru his hands. Our modern sensibility makes us cringe with stories like this, yet amazingly Muhammad taught that he is going to receive two rewards by marrying Safiyah. One for manumitting someone whom no one but himself had enslaved and the other for marrying the prettiest girl who was 40 years younger. What a ruthless sex maniac who don’t even consider suffers of victim who recently lost their dear ones in war against him and use them like animal to fulfill his lust.
Abu Musa reported that Allah`s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said about one who emancipated a slave woman, and then married her, that for him there are two rewards. (Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3327)
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, ``Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.`` Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet made her manumission as her `Mahr`. (Sahih Bukhari V.5 B.59 N.512)

Here allah’s messenger get war booty under direct command of Allah

The QurAnic sanction for this principle of the division of the booty is contained in the following verse: “Know that of that which you seize as spoils [ghanImah], a fifth-part [khums] belongs to Allah, to His Apostle, his family, the orphans, the poor, the traveler. . . .” (8:41).

How convenient allah’s massager looting ,fighting and devide loot between followers and take for himself 1/5 and here again Allah come to direct command. even most merciful Allah take interest in how to divide loot.


There are two forms of war gains: al-ghanImah and fai’. The first includes spoils which fall to the lot of the Muslims after an armed conflict; the other accrues when the non-Muslims surrender without offering resistance. “If you come to a township which has surrendered without a formal war and you stay therein, you have a share [in the form of an award] in [the properties obtained from] it. If a town disobeys Allah and the Messenger [and fights against the Muslims] one-fifth of the booty seized there from is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you” (shahi 4346)


The spoils of war were most welcome, but the process of allocating the plunder was rarely easy sailing. The occasions when the spoils were distributed were, in fact, pretty rough. The atmosphere was charged with expectation and excitement, and was full of claims, grievances, recriminations, suspicion, and accusations. Even Muhammad was once accused of concealing spoils (TirmizI, vol. II, hadIs 868), and allah’s intervention had to take place in order to quiet the suspicion. “It is not for a prophet to cheat or be false to his trust. If any person is so false, he shall, on the Day of Judgment, restore what he misappropriated,” said Allah (3.-161). Commenting on this verse, the translator of the Glorious QurAn, Abdullah Yusuf ’AlI, assures us that “those low suspicions were never believed in by any sensible person, and they have no interest for us now” (note 472).

Someone wonder creator of world had more important thing done or he had no business except simplify mohamad’s life and divide war booty.


Merciful Allah

Allah of Islam emphatically encouraged Muslims to kill and to take women and properties of the prisoners as booty (Ganimatter Maal). He (Allah) made Ganimater Maal Halal for Muslim warriors. One can find all those tempting verses of Sura Anf’al (8:1,41,69) from Allah (?) inviting Muslims to enjoy booty sanctioned for them.
8:69—“But (now) enjoy what ye took in war (booty), lawful and good; but fear God…” (Allah encouraging Muslims to accept booty spoils of war “Maal-E-Ganimat”)

8:67—“It is not fitting for an Apostle that he should have prisoners of war until He thoroughly subdued the land….” (Allah insisting Prophet to kill all the prisoners, and should not keep any prisoners alive)

8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..”

Sura-47:4—“when you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”

In Quran you can read everywhere allah who is creater most merciful and most beneficiary.
But when you read Quran you find one threating personality who always threating you
And give dangerous command to fulfill. when Mohammad want something and divine fatwa coming thru grabial.even when mohamad want to marry his adopted son’s wife
Jaynab bint then immediate Allah’s command come then stop adoption as unislamic business. Sometimes I wonder Allah is creator of world or just servant of Mohammad.
When Mohammad needed he came like faithful slave.

#55 by Saminasha on September 19, 2003 4:52am PT
Khan Sahib,

``Please note that the interactor to whom you are responding to is ``saminshah`` and not me...of course this person has to bite off of my nick....it seems he cannot distinguish himself without it... ``

dear madam samin is my name.and i have to say this much arrogance is not good for anyone.

#54 by nazarhayatkhan on September 18, 2003 11:29pm PT

nazarsahib app kuch jyada he kahe rahe ho muje.thanks

78:SR

Let`s not bother with nor worry about Islam. Its been around long enough and will do just fine without our efforts of reform or abandonment. Let`s instead focus on the health (physical, mental, economic) and well being and of Muslims. God knows there is much work to be done.

...SR

PS: I agree about much of what you have to say about Ashcroft vs Abdul, but I think the dichotomy is not that clear cut. A lot of times it is the minority that excludes itself from the mainstream and not vice versa. Ashcroft only represents one of many faces of the gora bandar, just as hamidm`s ``unwashed mullah`` also only represents just one of many faces of the sand nigger.

---

great post. Thank you.

But this `tahmeding` by you really ruins the dueling here. Now that the muslim chowkies have battle-hardened by relentless onslaughts and bludgenings you are waving the white flag! Not fair I say, not fair :)

``in aabloN sey paooN kay ghabraa gayaa thhaa maeN
jee khuush huaa hai raah ko puur-khaar daikh kur``

Muslims NEED such discussions. MUSLIMS need to overhaul or reform THEMSELVES. Islam has, is,and eternaly will be safe & sound. Even a cursory reading of history would reveal how much worse the so-called muslim establishment has been to the word & deed muslims. The present day `muslim` rulers of every `islamic` country is nothing but a living-history albeit a lot benigner.

Qura`an , sunnah and dinyaat HAS to be studied individually (or with help) either to follow it , appreciate it or debunk it. There is just now-way ANYONE INTERESTED can afford to ignore it except to one`s own detriment.

One thing is crystal clear: it won`t go away.

Godot, Romair and echoboom, vs hamidm

Fascinating parallel thread... It all started with hamidm`s irreverent (#46) ijtehad post, which was clearly meant to poke fun and provoke a response. Perhaps he`s targetted readers with Urstruly`s degree of passion and was expecting a voilent gut reaction (but Urstruly is much more sophisticated than hamidm and Sameer give him credit for and he is not about to fall in one of those traps). However, our more ``moderate and reasonable`` Muslim (Romair & Godot) friends have taken up the challenge and counter-attacked. As I read all your posts, I cannot help but agree with what hamidm wrote yet at the same time I also quite agree with Romair and Godot. How can this be? Only one or the other should be right in my (or any other individual`s) view, but not both.

What seem to be happening is that hamidm employs hyperbole for dramma and humor and at times tends to stretch things for the sake of effect. Since he write cryptically with a liberal dose of anecdote and doesn`t bother to go into laborious explainatory details his points come across as somewhat more extreme than I believe he really intends for them to be. Also it seems that the generational difference is in play here. I do not know your ages, but I am extrapolating that hamidm and Sameer are a decade or more older than Romair and Godot. The later two, I suppose, have no recollection of the pre-1970s and very little, if any, of the early 1970s (please correct me if I am wrong) when hamidm et al were romping around Lahore (or Pindi? or Karachi?). Likewise the old geezers (myself included) were already living overseas when Zina-ul-Haq was committing zina-bil-jabr (and that too ``dry`` I might add) with the country where Godot and Romair were young adults. The environmental influences during those two periods were so vastly different that the perspectives of individuals growning up during them are accordingly colored.

(I am going on pure conjecture and if I have misclassified your generations, I have a rotten egg in my face, and my whole thesis is busted.)

The kind of Muslims in America that hamidm and Sameer see behind every pillar exist in sizable numbers (perhaps not 80%) but they are not seen in every circle. Having had the privilege of being accepted as the cool Bhaijan among the charasee crowd during iftaar parties at the student center I see this genrational gap from a rather different perspective. (This crowd is a generation even younger than Romair and Godot and though they address me as Bhaijan I am really an uncle) The middle genration is more ``moderate`` yet very sincere. But they are neither as much fun as the youngsters nor as sullen as the majority of the uncles.

Let`s not bother with nor worry about Islam. Its been around long enough and will do just fine without our efforts of reform or abandonment. Let`s instead focus on the health (physical, mental, economic) and well being and of Muslims. God knows there is much work to be done.

...SR

PS: I agree about much of what you have to say about Ashcroft vs Abdul, but I think the dichotomy is not that clear cut. A lot of times it is the minority that excludes itself from the mainstream and not vice versa. Ashcroft only represents one of many faces of the gora bandar, just as hamidm`s ``unwashed mullah`` also only represents just one of many faces of the sand nigger.

Militant gays, feminazis, moderate Muslims...I hope these are part of the Muslims that seize Islam back from the superstitious, complaining bourgeois industry it has become... then perhaps we could live with the rest of the world rather than consigning it to hell....the idea that I like more than anything I`ve read for a while-the true idea of God accepts and loves EVERYBODY-and our rules about who belongs and who doesnt, is the human perversion of a truly great force...

September 11th And The Bush Administration

Compelling Evidence for Complicity

Walter E. Davis, PhD

08/31/03: (Information Clearing House)

Introduction

Clearly, one of the most critical questions of the twenty-first century concerns why the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 were not prevented. As I outline below, there are numerous aspects regarding the official stories about September 11th which do not fit with known facts, which contradict each other, which defy common sense, and which indicate a pattern of misinformation and coverup. The reports coming out of Washington do very little to alleviate these concerns.

For example, the Congressional report released on July 25, 2003 by a joint panel of House and Senate intelligence committees concluded that 9/11 resulted in C.I.A. and F.B.I. ``lapses.`` While incompetence is frightening enough given a $40 billion budget, it is simply not consistent with known facts. It is consistent with the reports from other government scandals such has the Iran Contra Affair which produced damage control and cover up but not answers to the more probing questions. But perhaps a comparison to Watergate is more apropos since we now have twenty-eight pages of this report, which the Bush Administration refuses to release. The report from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is believable unless you are seriously interested in the truth. Under more careful scientific scrutiny, it does not answer some very important questions.

Newspapers across the country call for an investigation into Bush’s lies about the reasons for war on Iraq. Many people may accept the fact of Bush’s false pretext for a war on Arab people in a distant place, especially after the fact. However, few people will be as accepting if it is shown that this Administration was complicit in acts of atrocities against its own people.

The magnitude of the crisis is readily apparent by noting that 9/11 serves as a pretext for a never-ending war against the world, including preemptive strikes against defenseless, but resource rich countries. It also serves as a pretext for draconian measures of repression at home, including the cabinet level Department of Homeland Security and Patriot Act I, and its sequel. September 11th has become the cause for numerous other acts from massive increases in military spending and to a Fast Track Trade Agreement for the President.

To date, investigations stop far too short, the public is left in the dark on too many ..........................

Read the rest at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm

Fascinating inded.

[...One group is the one that hears Mozart when they talk about Islam...wants to keep the current comatose Islam alive on minimum oxygen; these are the Osama-type...]

a good joke.

godot,

........... good post, and i am glad you found a masjid inhabited by some sane people - just goes to show there is hope yet ...........but be careful - the ``real`` muslims have a nasty habit of taking over because nobody has the gonads to stand up to them when they start quoting from the book ............it is only a matter of time before they put up a ``sisters only`` entrance and talk you into discarding your black t-shirt for an islamic nightgown ...............

.............actually, i do agree with quite a bit of what you have to say ........... the unwashed masses in raja bazaar are not the people i worry about (although they can be easily exploited by the mullahs), it is the so called ``educated`` urban middle class that is on the slippery path which they claim is sirat-ul-mustaqeem ........

............ three bazaars ?....... would that be haathi chowk? ....... used to frequent the tikka shop at the corner of kabari bazaar before moving on to jehangir`s on kashmir road ..........


romair,

no it is not 1,2,3 or 4 ......... the only things poor mrs hamidm is worried about is the side effects of botox and my ever expanding waist line; in my younger days i did have had some run-ins with the jamaati thugs - but i have learned to forgive and move on;no, i have never been to an isna or msa meeting, but i have heard enough about them (somehow i got on the horizon mailing);and actually i do get out quite a lot and know all kinds of people including reform jews, reform hindoos, reform atheists and some muslims who don`t have religion on their mind all the time .............. so it must be something else

..........i also have little patience with southern baptists, practicing brahmins, the kkk, tele marketers, jehova`s witnesses, mormons, militant gays, faujis, and any other group who is convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong ...........

............ as for changing religions - what is the point?.........why would you want to change one pair of dirty underwear for another .............. and it sounds like a lot of work ......... heck, i can`t even imagine being an atheist and having to explain why you don`t believe in what you don`t believe in .................

Stuka:

Unless a person renounces Islam, they are still considered a Muslim even while committing what is regarded as a sin within the religion. Committing a sin as far as I know does not automatically make you a non-Muslim.