Vajpayee’s Srinagar offer of Talks to Pakistan

#numerous by Ralph

Classic.

So now you`ve come up with the brilliant suggestion that the views one holds should be measured by the time one has been on Chowk than by the substance they contain. Another very interested theory on your part.

As an aside, I fail to see where you and to some extent Mantolives seem to have got the idea that I would like to see Musharraf firmly ensconced in power for the next few zillions years. Rest assured my room is not littered with his posters. However, that is an orthogonal issue. I think far too much emphasis has been placed on Musharraf as being the root cause of the Kashmir issue while dogmatically refuting the attrocities in Kashmir and insisting that people should continue to be bludgeoned into submission. On one hand you blame him and on the other hand you continue to champion Vajpayee and his BJP thugs, who continue to run riot unchecked. Now THAT, dear friends, is what seems to not make sense.

And that`s not even the least of it. Then there`s the entire ideology believing that no one in the world should say anything about Kashmir as long as anything is remotely wrong in Pakisan. Grow up. So children in Pakistan may not know how to read. That still doesn`t mean one should turn a blind eye towards the fact that women are being raped at will by the Indian Army in Kashmir. You are entitled to believe that one should focus on addressing only one issue at a time, but at the same time you can`t grudge me the right to think that success can be achieved on several fronts a little at a time. Much better than trying to think what takes priority over what as you lot seem to feel yourselves at liberty to do.

So it`s distorted reality to believe that India`s claim of being a secular democracy is a sham under the current political system there ? I`ll tell you what`s distorted reality. It`s coming up with a claim like that in the face of Bombay, Gujrat and Ayodhya. The point is this. The problems in Kashmir probably have a lot more to do with the fact that minorities are being denied their rights in India than with external interference. Of course, to deal with that issue, one first needs to accept that fact.

You speak of tolernace ? Haha. Moments ago you were talking about Muslims not mattering and Sikhs being marginally better. Rest assured, if you believe trying to patronize me is going to make me any more receptive to your nonsense, you`re quite mistaken. Call me idealistic, but anyone who believes that land should take priority over human lives has a few demons to deal with in his mind... The main point I want to get out of this thread is that do you seriously think like that ? I`ve heard all the anti-Pakistan rhetoric, but is the belief that men and women should continue to be bound by the decisions of one man without their consent and the idea that land takes priority over all else what all of you have grown up with ?

Answer me that.

Manto

You are right about the mudslinging. It is mostly without purpose, at best a perverse way to entertain ourselves. On the other hand, I think it doesn`t help a Pakistani youngster to believe that Indian minorities are queuing up to migrate to Pakistan. That will give him quite a distorted sense of reality. Nevertheless, we should have been more tolerant of HassanShah. He is probably a fine young man who will grow up to be an asset to Pakistan. I think you have blazed a real trail for others to follow.

No it wasn`t entirely `skinless`... Pretty skimpy... :)

Mantolives:
You were cheering the tasteful (by which I presume skinless!) Moulin Rouge in Lahore while I was enjoying Sham-e-ghazal in Ottawa. Shows what each of us is missing:-).

digit:
On Quebec:
[Close-calls (i.e. 51% OUI situations) will most likely mean a continuation of the process, and not a declaration of out right victory. This is to the credit of the Quebecois.]

It was not so clear before. The position of Jacques Parizeau was that anything more than 50% entitles him to declare sovereignty. Confidential documents reveal that he was expecting France to recognize Quebec`s sovereignty and set the ball rolling. Of course, Canada would have not accepted it on several grounds.

[The FLQ was a fringe, one-shot movement. So the October crisis is hardly the kind of blood-letting that would allow us to make equivalence between Quebec and Kashmir.]

You are right about the present situation. But in 1989 the situation in Kashmir was very similar to that in Quebec in 1970 (BTW FLQ was not a one-shot affair and had started with the post office bombings in the sixties). Just as a provincial minister had been kidnapped in Montreal, the daughter of the Indian Home Minister, Syed Mufti (the current chief minister of Kashmir) was kidnapped by JKLF militants in the fledgling insurgency. While Trudeau dealt with the FLQ terrorists firmly, the Indian leadership caved in to the demands of the JKLF militants. Militancy went from strength to strength since then.
Incidentally, I am one of those who believe that Trudeau went for an overkill in 1970, hounding out not only the militants but anyone deemed to be their sympthiser. The reaction was the upsurge in the support for the PQ.

[Needless to say, I truly think that all three sides need to get together, and let the Kashmiris themselves end this issue once and for all.]
In an ideal world I would agree. But the subcontinent has its own peculiarities. Gujarat comes to mind, so does the ethnic cleansing of minorities from the valley and POK. On the subcontinent, a negotiated settlement, which takes into consideration the likely (not the ideal) repercussions of any decision on the people of the two countries, especially 140 million muslim citizens of India, would be preferable. And yes, that negotiated settlement must take into considerations the wishes of Kashmiris themselves.

Ralph,

Agreed almost completely... massive introspection is required on the part of our `intellectual elite`. They clearly haven`t done their homework except that is what is related to their own survival. I am surprised that reasonable individuals like yourself and Alephnull (and maybe P-mishra) have joined up in this mudslinging match. You were never part of the thackerey brigade. I want people like you to be the friends of Pakistan in India...


Hassan Shah and other Pakistanis arguing here forcefuly,

Meray Bhaiyon... Kuch din pehlay Musharraf Sahib spoke at a gathering in New York ( I have first hand info because my biwi to be was there) and he went into a monologue about the greatness of the `Al Khalid` Tank and the JF-17 Fighter. What was the point of that?
Musharraf`s own hero Kemal Ataturk once said : `A nation is judged by its education and its morals, military might only comes last.`

Seems like Musharraf is not in the business of imbibing anything from his self proclaimed heroes.... but you are reasonable people... spend your energies elsewhere... let us join hands and make the modern democratic and progressive state that our founder Mr. Jinnah dreamed of. That should be our aim and objective and nothing else. Whats the point of these matches on the net?


-YLH

Mantolives # 256

Manto, agree with you but partly. Religious bigots pose much simpler a problem for a nation than do a cadre of `intellectual elites` committed to a given milieu. Nobody will take Nakshbandi seriously. Therefore he is not half as destructive, in Pakistan`s case, of Jinnah`s dreams as a Romair, a hobbyty, or a Ahmedzai is.

This intellectual class, using the term very loosely here, forms the bedrock of any system, being impossibly hard to shake. Their tool of the trade are not the religion or the gun, but people`s minds and emotions. Just as Musharraf, on his visit to china, described his control of mullahs, such people hold a nation by the `scruff of its shirts.`

Ultimately, that`s where the battle has to be fought, if it has to be won. A very difficult challenge because this intellectual class has perfected the art of playing with people`s deepest emotions and fears - those related to nationalism, religion, and survival. They make people blind and deaf by firmly installing themselves as their only trustworthy eyes and ears, their only interface with reality.

PS: Remember France at its Bohemian peak was still defining its state religion as `Roman Catholicism`... The Bohemianism is on the rise in the `Islamic` Republic of Pakistan... as for France they got over their internal contradiction in 1905... we will get over it one day as well.

Dear alephnull,

You`ve indeed pointed out the inherent contradiction ... however by no means is the word `has` a given... the positive logic would be to say that a country formed out of a minority`s struggle for safeguards can in no way turn around and oppress its own minorities... that indeed would be a positive approach... but it seems that neither you in India, nor our own mullahs are ready to let us take that positive approach. I accept that your role is of no consequence but its seems to fuel our mullahs on into believing that their bigoted negative approach is the correct approach. The `necessity` you`ve pointed out is thus an imagined one on your part and the mullahs, but it has become a reality in Pakistan.


Veeresh,

Yes... Moulin Rouge in Lahore, and last night the Governor of Punjab was in attendance and he announced more financial help for the cast. The cast was entirely Pakistani, and it was no `elitist` even either... throngs and throngs of people came. It played for 8 days and now one more day has been added at the insistence of the Governor who was almost mugged by those who didn`t get to see the play. The play was tastefuly done, and was a wonderful experience. Shah Sharahbeel is a wonderful director. Pakistan isn`t the place that the Thackerey brigade wants people to believe... it is a lively and dynamic place... I assure you that the recently re-opened Dance clubs in Karachi will be at par with any in Asia or the world... please see the `Klub Karachi` post in the `Unplugged section`. A deeper understanding is required of the Pakistani mind, and the different subsets in the Pakistani society. And believe me you will find more open minded people in the middle class than anywhere else.

As for ideological struggles, I suppose the key is to distinguish between the `Muslim` Identity (from the TNT) which most Pakistanis seem to be enamoured by (though as a matter of principle I distance myself from it) and the `Islamist` ideology that the Mullahs want Pakistan to have which is a disastrous concept. At the end of the day most Pakistanis just wanna have fun and live their life...


-YLH

Was going to write about ``Pakistani mentality`` and ``Pakistani logic.`` But after reading tahmed32 # 251, don`t feel like doing so. tahmed32 # 251 forces me to take some time out from this otherwise enjoyable bashing game.

HassanShah, my friend

Whether we agree or disagree, are knowledgeable or ignorant, the least we ought to strive for is elementary logical consistency. My guess is that you are a kid fired up with a need to be heard. But your zeal destroys your effectiveness. You should learn from Mantolives. He has grown a lot on Chowk. To be fair, though, he was far ahead of you even when he came online. As of now, you should really concentrate on developing your logical abilities. With application and dedication on your part, there is no reason why one day you wouldn`t have something worthwhile to say.


AlephNull

I have a theory that puts some of these things in perspective. Would gladly share it with you one day. We may want to focus on noticing WHO in Pakistan says what. We would find interesting and expected patterns. For instance, what you wrote applies to some people in Pakistan more than to others. knowing our interlocutors better, we may be able to establish clearer lines of communication.

I don`t think many of these problems will last forever. The situation is not sustainable. At some point, even the deepest material and ideological vested interests keeping these problems alive will give way.

Hi Yasser . . . Moulin Rouge in Lahore? Kicking knickers and all? Wow.

What next, Jesus Christ Superstar?

Why don`t you post us a review of the show, anyways, please? Be better than this farting contest, sure.

Today`s HT carries banner front page article on how Indian/Pakistani Armies from the LOC are carrying back heads of soldiers as trophies.

Bravo!! #251 by tahmed32 on September 27, 2003 8:29pm PT
I admire your post. The farting contest must end and let us get down to the individual power plays than let them hide behind the jargon. The geneology (Foucault) and analyses of the discourses of liberation must be made to un-mask the web of power and deceit behind it .WE must analyse all the actions of the power elites, whether in Pakistan or in India in the context of their dominent position in the web of power ( the Mushy guy is the dominent player in Pakistan since he has guns, nukes and the LFO) . You have to scrutinize all their decisions including who is being favoured in appointments, jobs, tenders etc. to understand their power game and how they use it to keep the ignorant and illiterate pwople of the sub-continent at the subsistence levels while garnering the major portion of the GDP under their control. Ask this question-- who is gaining most with the economic liberalization; how much does the distribution of wealth gets affected by this so called growth; is any wealth trickling down to the poor???
Guys, forget jargon- and see the actors looting their countries while concealing their real motives behind the jargons. Do not blame this ``system`` or that ``system``- the system concept is another jargon to fool us into in-difference and in-action.
Arise, all fools of this chowkiland and burn all the stupid books while enslave you for ever.

HassanShah #240 Normally i skip india-pakistan farting contests (the gentle reader to kindly excuse this somewhat graphic description) like the ones going on on this board, and simply throw a couple of curve balls at some of the more deserving contestants. You being the new kid on chowk, i read your post. I dont see much substance in your refutation of the summarization of the claims of the contestants from the indian side.

Thus: on the right of self-determination - this argument made sense 50 years ago. Wont happen. If that makes you feel bad for the Kashmiris, consider this: What about me, your humble servant tahmed?

Yes! I want my right to self-determination too, just like the kashmiris. I want to declare the land I own in Pakistan to be declared an independent country (I shall call it tahmedistan, in my honor. I shall declare ``jugni`` to be my national anthem, because its kind of nice. Soon after i get independence, i shall run against myself in my very own elections.). But these 135 million pakistanis wont give me my right of self-determination. damn!

I am of course joking here, but you may wish to reflect a bit on this. What IS self determination for a large community of millions of people? It is nothing other than a slogan by those who seek to become the rulers there. I submit to you that the ONLY SELF DETERMINATION THAT MATTERS IS THE RIGHT TO LIBERTY AND FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL. And that right can be had in a huge and diverse country like the US, and that right can be denied in a tiny, homogenous country like Albania (for example), as was the case in that country for decades under Hoxha’s rule.

On India`s human rights abuses in kashmir. Of course these have happened in Kashmir and elsewhere, and is a disgrace and has been documented by Amnesty International. India is, despite what some chowk posters would have you believe, among the most backward societies on earth. just like Pakistan.

BUT: If you are seriously concerned about human rights abuses, how about the human rights abuses in pakistan that take place every time a child grows up without learning to read and write? or a child cries runs towards strangers begging for something to eat?

FINALLY, you write: ``As long as dogs (both literal and otherwise) continue to constitute the electorate in India, I seriously doubt we`ll ever have peace. ``

For you to use that term for the electorate of India tells me that you have much to learn in terms of respect for other communities. I hope you will do that before you grow much older.

Otherwise you may end up becoming the pakistani version of jay in your middle age, boiling with hatred towards people who have done you no harm, and are no different than you or I other than that they live in India.

Ralph #54

{{You have been claiming that the minorities in India would happily live in Pakistan. Please find me

O N E Indian Christian who would rather live in Pakistan than in India.

O N E Indian Parsi who would rather live in Pakistan than in India.

O N E Indian Buddhist who would rather live in Pakistan than in India.

…

O N E Indian atheist who would rather live in Pakistan than in India.


It should not be that difficult, given what you have been saying.}}

Ralph, those are cruel questions to ask, like kicking the crutches out from under a cripple.

The fable of persecuted and disadvantaged non-Muslim minorities in India is a necessary pillar of the Pakistani elite worldview. A state supposedly created to safeguard the rights of a particular religious/ethnic minority has to subject its citizens to ideological indoctrination centred around the dogma of the primacy of religion in personal identity and the inevitability of persecution of ‘minority’ groups in a religiously diverse nation. This is a necessity for the state, if only to reassure its own citizens that its creation was not a mistake, and to remind them of their supposed good fortune. Hence the farcically presumptuous attitude that many Pakistanis display towards non-Muslim minorities in India.

One should never forget that these Indians for whom our dear friends shed copious camel tears are meant to be little more than wooden dummies or stage props making up the backdrop to the Pakistani elite’s fantasy worldview. They are not supposed to come to life, walk to center-stage, and deliver unwelcome lines out of turn. Hence the palpable fury and sense of betrayal that one of these Pakistanis is wont to display, when an Indian from these allegedly persecuted groups, whose supposed India-hating opinions have been taken for granted, instead of playing his assigned part, turns out to be loyal to his country and to have absolutely no use for Pakistan. And hence the predictable labeling of these spoilsport fantasy-breakers as ‘tokens’, ‘BJP lackeys’ ‘impostors’, etc. etc.

tahmed,

Sorry... I really can`t waste my time anymore on the thackerey brigade... so expect that from me... While you were fighting I was enjoying the wonderful theatrical performance of `Moulin Rouge` by Center stage productions... which has enchanted the whole of Lahore.

-YLH

takshak,

Calling me a TNTist isn`t gonna work. People here know me too well... it will only prove my thesis about you further...

Give those snakes in your head a rest.

-YLH