Vajpayee’s Srinagar offer of Talks to Pakistan

HassanShah

I was thinking of leaving you to your devices and your stupidity. But like a newborn piglet with no self control, you don`t stop squeeling. I will let you dirty your snout a while longer before I give you another 10 minutes of my time.

Your friend

:)

Hassan Shah is one lucky man. Here I am, with no time to look at Chowk and here this man has all the time in the world to run riot with his opinions about India and Hinduism.I suppose that will happen if you don`t have a life.... A shame he hasn`t actually used all that time to say anything new, just the same old tu-tu-mein-mein that often makes chowk very boring. For heaven`s sake. Pull yourself together,man!

{Surely over one-fifth of the world`s population cannot continue to allow things to remain the way they are in Kashmir or wage war against each other to decide the affair. }

...if mushy wants a kick in the ass like `tiger niazi` did he`s welcome to start another war...

rsridhar,

......... i hate to disappoint you, but like everythig else in pakistan the ``dictatorship`` is also second rate ........ compared to pinochet, sadddam hussein, idi amin, indira gandhi and generalissmo franco, musharraf is a pussy cat .......... as far as the common man is concerned he can stand in the middle of the street and say anything he wants and nobody can do a dang thing about it ........ a year ago i was in a fender bender with a army staff car and within an hour i had a colonel apologizing profusely for the havaldar`s rude behaviour - all i had to do was hold up traffic and cuss out the army ........... and just this year i tried to use my connections in the fia and the isi (oh yes, the isi) to get a tenant evicted who had already recieived a court order after fifteen years of litigation and guess what - my langotia buddies told me they couldn`t do a thing and advised me to pay up (and i did)................

...........not that i am a supporter of the fools and goons in kahaki - they are a bunch of idiots who have brought pakistan to the brink of disaster - but they are not dictators in the classical sense ............. ashcroft has more arbitrary powers than mushy ................so, as much as we hate the military for messing up things it is not a ``dictatorship`` by any stretch of imagination ................ so quit harping on the dictatorship thing - mushy is a big woman compared to indira ............ of course, we can`t wait to get rid of him............

``As long as dogs (both literal and otherwise) continue to constitute the electorate in India, I seriously doubt we`ll ever have peace``

It seems you have little doubt about that statement.

Personally, despite everything, I still hope that sanity can prevail. Surely over one-fifth of the world`s population cannot continue to allow things to remain the way they are in Kashmir or wage war against each other to decide the affair.

Hassan Shah,
#240
You figured that out all by yourself, huh?
Peace between India & Pakistan isnt possible.
The sooner we realise that, the better..

``#214 by harimau on September 27, 2003 5:35am PT
Ref arjun_m #194
I really really feel sorry for the man in the street in Karachi, Lahore and Lyallpur. He is going to have to feed the Pak Army.``

``By the way, does anyone have any explanation why the Pak Army is twice the size it was before it lost Bangladesh? How does that help in dealing India the death of the thousand cuts? ``

Harimau/Arjun_m,

Boy o Boy. You two are really humane. (Pathetic is the word I wanted to use. Couldn`t.) Think of urstru...Field Marshal...The champions of humanity. Why do you think you have any chance or claim. The humanity train is full. All seats are reserved/taken.

There will be a change when the man in the street of Karachi, Lahore and Lyallpur thinks he also is a man and not only.....

Harimau...

Why do not let them enjoy the double size or may be three times... They have created the ``Swarg``. Sustained it for last 50+ years. Are more than happy. Why can`t they enjoy it for 50 years more. May be 100. May be 200.... A Mushy once in a while does help to open more and more eyes of idiots amongst us, doesn`t it? If not Mushy.. there always will be a Oushy, Pushy. Qushy...

No answer required. Thanks

Yogiraj Patil

Gentlemen (and ladies) !

Before anything else, let me sincerely thank you for all the entertainment you have provided me with these weak little arguments, these paranoid little minds and these crushed little dreams of yours.

Firstly, Ralph, as always, warrants the title of my most favourite writer on this thread. Started out by asking me to find one Sikh who would be willing to live in Pakistan and then proceeded to claim that Sikhs, like Muslims, don`t matter one bit. That was followed by a brief discussion on how Pakistan had died and disappeared in that big ether-hole where his brain used to be, which was gradually changed to wishful thinking that Pakistan does indeed exist but will cease to exist. Now he`s resigned himself to reality and accepted the fact we`ll continue to be here and lambast his sorry little rear end on Chowk.

[insert tear rolling down my cheek in sympathy]

And then there`s the belief that things are just peachy between India and its neighbours. No problems with Bangladesh. No issues with China. Nothing with Nepal, Sri Lanka and Burma. Of course you`ll all say that. According to the lot of you, all of India`s political arrogance is not a problem. I`m sure people on the other side of the border will beg to differ.

Following which some of you have actually attempted to convince us that India`s a great place for minorities. I guess you haven`t seen pictures of what happened in Ayodhya, Bombay and Gujrat. Enough said.

And then there`s the entire bit about India`s greater military superiority. Boo-bloody-hoo. Find all the comfort you can in your charming little Phalcons because the stark reality is that in the presence of a nuclear deterrent, it`s going to sit there and rust away. Neither country can afford war, and that`s the truth.

In between all this, somehow, somewhere, the main point still gets overlooked: Kashmir. I actually tried to understand what the position of all my friends across the border was, and I`ll try to make one final effort to conduct a meaningful discussion by repeating the questions I asked earlier and the responses I received... is the general opinion across the border really summed up by the following:

i) In India, the world`s largest democracy, should the people of Kashmir not have the right of self-determination ?

The people of Kashmir do not matter one bit. It is the land that is of paramount importance. The 850 million Hindus living elsewhere should be able to choose for those living in Kashmir. And, just as well, because all Kashmiris are terrorists and should therefore not be taken seriously

ii) Should the future of millions be decided forever by one man who lived more than half a century ago ?

Again, some believe that`s precisely the way to go, i.e., to let millions be bound forever by the decision of one person. And then there are others who harp on giving the 850 million Hindus sitting on the outside the right to choose everything for the millions in Kashmir.

iii) What are India`s reasons for keeping human rights organizations out of Kashmir ?

India has nothign to gain by letting in human rights organizations because there are abuses going on in Indian Occupied Kashmir and having such organizations will expose the gory side of the government`s actions there. Therefore, the government must make use of its prerogative of keeping the truth concealed.

Oh and yes. As long as dogs (both literal and otherwise) continue to constitute the electorate in India, I seriously doubt we`ll ever have peace.

Namecalling is typical trait of TNTists when truth becomes uncomfortable. Enjoy your ``freedom`` under your military rule.

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``But one thing is quite clear. The process will be constitutional. Any insurgency will be ruthlessly put down, as it was in 1970. The army will occupy Quebec if the movement turn violent.``

That`s a BIG if, considering both sides are intent on settling this issue politically. Civil war is always possible, however I remain unconvinced that it`s even remotely likely as things are now.

Also, no matter what the process, at the end of the day I can quite confidently say that the wishes of the people of Quebec will be respected. This is to the credit of the rest of Canada. Close-calls (i.e. 51% OUI situations) will most likely mean a continuation of the process, and not a declaration of out right victory. This is to the credit of the Quebecois.

``India too is trying to incorporate separatists into the political mainstream.``

This, after a prolonged period of violence. Unlike with Quebec, both (or, rather, all three) sides of the Kashmir issue have spilt blood.

The FLQ was a fringe, one-shot movement. So the October crisis is hardly the kind of blood-letting that would allow us to make equivalence between Quebec and Kashmir.

It`s also difficult now. Dealing with India would mean legitimizing it`s ``occupation``/occupation of Kashmir. Dealing with the separatists on any meaningful level (i.e. beyond amnesty for past deeds) would
acknowledge the right of Kashmir to secede. It`s a mess...and quite frankly no one is making a serious attempt at addressing the problem.

Anyhow, the original question was if there was any nation that handled such an issue without it`s suppression through violent means. The answer is clearly yes. All THREE sides should learn from this.

I put the bulk of this burden on those who actually hold power, i.e. India (and also Pakistan). Needless to say, I truly think that all three sides need to get together, and let the Kashmiris themselves end this issue once and for all. This is the Pakistani position (admittedly, a position greatly weakened by their support for armed insurgents/infiltrators), so it shouldn’t be a surprise that I’m pro-Pak on this issue ;-).

#234 Sigalph235

Agreed, India has done poorly with Bangladesh. It should do better. The challenge of large-scale immigration is a difficult one but many other issues should have been solved already. A generous offer could yet help with stabilizing Bangladesh and limiting influence of the crazies.

BTW, this is also the opinion of a very substantial number of knowledgeable indians.

ballukhan #222 i think my post #223 should give you a good idea what i think of jay. he even accused me a couple of times of being a jehadi sympathizer, and when challenged by me to cut and paste anything i wrote from the innumerable posts i have written on chowk was unable to do so and simply dropped off for a little while on chowk. I cant have any respect for a man (a grown up, middle aged, ``well educated`` man) who is a proven and unrepentent liar.

This man has written over a couple of thousand posts on chowk (i checked the count) and i cant recall a single post that had any message than the one he tries to convey in this post: trying to demonize of the pakistani people by equating them with terrorists or (like the rest of the little Modis and Advanis i see on this board) otherwise ventilate their hatred for Pakistan.

I think the relatively well-off people of pakistan and india (the ones who interact on chowk, e.g.) have a responsibility to promote better understanding and mutual respect. Both countries have too many real problems of widespread poverty for us to have the luxury of demonizing one another as is the case with a large number of the 234 posts written on this board.

Regarding 211 by jay on September 27, 2003 5:35am PT

``.....jihad and killing of kafirs is widely accepted by the middle class of pakistan.
May be it is time that the indians on chowk take note that no pakistani has ever dared to say that jihad is not killing of kafirs. It is this implicit support, the silent support enhanced by donations that sustains the killers that stream out of pakistan. ``

I would like to ask tahmed saheb , dostmitter saheb, HS ji and HE whether the above stated observation of jay has any truth in it or not . This is a serious accusation against our Pakistani middle class.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh....mr. jay is back. welcome back, mr. jay. i missed you. i was feeling good about pakistan, having visited it in august, around the time you went for your...ummmm...mental rehabilitation.

now i can come back to the reality of pakistan as provided on chowk by the lead pakistan expert from india. please tell me about how bad things really are for us pakistanis...i promise to try to start feeling bad about pakistan.

PS: do try to keep control over yourself and dont let your PFS - Pakistan Fixation Syndrome - flare up again though. You know what happens then - they take you away and give you electric shocks.