Vajpayee’s Srinagar offer of Talks to Pakistan

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His Excellency(!!)
The Indians are aware of the poor human rights record in Kashmir.
But the point is ,the jihadists blowing up in the valley do not make them any more sensitive to the issue.On the contrary it makes their stand harder.Most of the Indians support the prime minister`s stance that terror will not be tolerated.
In the bonhomie created by the Lahore bus journey of the same man , even hindutva zealots reconsidered their stance on article 370 and also wanted to explore the possibiity of making the LoC the permanent border. But I dont have to tell you who made the entire effort a sham! (please dont tell me that it was the RAW that provided the logistic for the `mujahids`!). One good lesson from The Lahore episode (apart from that of distrusting the generals) is that the people can be CONVINCED of the necessity of solving the Kashmir issue and even of making COMPROMISES.
India is a democratic country.If the people deem something to be the in the nations interest then the leaders will follow the people.But how to make the people sympathetic to the kashmiri cause?Certainly not by sending jihadists across the border and blasting the indians in every international venue. this`ll only help the ultra nationalists to flare up the egos (yes ,i maintain that egos ,of the leaders and of people ,do run nations.atleast they are one of the factors.why else did USSR blast so much money in its space programmes when it couldnt feed its citizens?what else is behind the hutton drama in britain but the egotistic selfrighteousness of Blair?why else do cricket matches generate so much of pent up emotions on either side of the border?Why does the media celebrate victories so jingoistically and defeats with such anger ? and why do the politicians notice sports only when its something to do with India/Pakistan. ).
As you know the kashmiri dissent took a decisive turn in 1989 and it had more to do with the neglect of development issues by successive govts . NewDelhi put all their eggs in the abdullah basket who for lack of stronger words, usurped his position and power.The central govt refused to engage anyone else from the valley.I dont want to wash further linen infront of pakis and this is not an excuse.Our govt bungled!!
Now how did Pakistan use this opportunity? How did they make the kashmiri dissent a weapon in their blind pursuit for revenge?How did Kashmiriyat gave way to jihadi mind set?
Why are so many pakistanis (ghazi baba?now disown him like you disowned those hapless kargil infiltrators!) being killed in kashmir?
You take a high moral ground on this issue. please evaluate how Pakistan has helped the Kashmiris.
I can tell you how you can make a positive difference.Make `azad` Kashmir independent! Stop all those jehadis crossing over.No!dont stop your wailing at the UN altogether.You can do that a couple of times a year so that no one forgets.In short put a moratorium on all such acts for 5 years.This will make an impact on the Indian psyche than all those poor dastards who are cursed to end up in unnamed graves in a foreign country.It will also bring peace in the valley as insurgency will not sustain without foriegn weapons and foreign terrorists. The dissenters will take to non-violent means of protest.Then the army can be withdrawn which will further boost civil activities.You may know that the federal nature of indian constitution is getting stronger because of all those powerful regional parties.The policies of liberalisation also helps in making the state govts stronger.This means that
Kashmiris will be closest to their earlier demands of autonomy.Such a positive atmosphere will be ideal for a healthy solution of the problem.
One rider that comes with this package is that the Kashmiris,like the sikhs may prefer to stay in the Indian union ( with the present growth of the indian economy) !!

No , I`m not teasing you.If you want to maintain the right of a higher moral stance you should prove yourself worthy of it.

regards

PS:-Who stands to loose the most if Kashmir is solved?

HisExcellency #371

{{Given the secrecy of Kargil operation in Pakistan and more so in India (where the govt. has refused to release the Kargil Committee Report),}}

HE,

If you insist on pedding your creative fictions on Chowk as factual, it helps to not make assertions that can be easily and crushingly refuted.

The Kargil Committee Report was tabled in the Indian Parliament on February 23rd, 2000 and its contents made available via newspaper websites etc. Here from the Rajya Sabha’s offical site is an executive summary. It states at its head that the authenticated copy of “the summary, Full Report and Action intitated by the government” is available in the Parliament Library.

The most important report that has not been released to the public is the Henderson Brooks report into the 1962 war with China.

Your systematic mistake is to extrapolate from the secretive behaviour of the Pakistani regime to characterise the behaviour of the Indian government. It would be difficult in any case for India to conceal from its aroused citizenry all operational details of India`s first war to be fought in the full glare of media publicity. For Pakistani, a far less open society, we have to choose between Dictator Musharraf`s fiction of `aggressive patrolling` and ousted PM Nawaz Sharif`s contention that 3000 soldiers of the Northern Flight Infantry lost their lives.

{{only the zeolously naive or decidedly mendacious can make any tall claims about the facts.}}

Given the above, don’t you think you qualify for membership in the “intentionally mendacious” class?

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#370 by arjun_m

For the umpteenth time you have been mentioning a RAND report and Shaukat Qadir`s analysis. Perhaps you don`t know that authors of RAND report do not claim that their report is final. Look at the references of the report. It is based on editorials and prejudiced news reports published in Indian and Pakistani journals & newspapers. It is a report based on other people`s opinions, not on first-hand facts or de-classified material. The authors of the RAND report have therefore stated in the Preface...

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1450/MR1450.pref.pdf

``This report presents the results of a quick-turnaround study conduced by RAND at the request of the U.S. government in the months leading up to the November 2000 presidential election in the United States...

The broad purpose of the study was to understand how India and Pakistan viewed the significance of the Kargil conflict, what lessons they drew from this conflict, and the implications of those lessons for future stability in South Asia. Consequently, this report is not an all-source document: it has deliberately avoided the use of all U.S. governmental documents and for the most part many other open-source American materials as well. Instead the source materials used are almost exclusively Indian and Pakistani...

This report is by no means intended to be the final word on Indian and Pakistani assessments about Kargil. In fact, it explicitly presents an early view of this issue, since Indian and Pakistani judgments may themselves evolve with time. As official documents on the conflict come to light, more systematic research on some of the key issues touched on in this report-- the genesis of the conflict; the character of the operations; the perceptions, judgements, and decisions of national leaderships; the significance of nuclear weapons; and the role of outside powers-- will be possible, and more considered conclusions may be derived. Until that time, however, this preliminary assessment is offered for public consumption in the hope that it will contribute to a better understanding of the problems of stability in South Asia...


RAND simply presents a cursory, early assessment of Indian and Pakistani perspectives, not the facts and details of the operations. RAND report essentially summarizes what the common man felt about Kargil and stability in South Asia-- not what the common man knew.

Shaukat Qadir`s analysis suffers from the same problem. It is based on indirect sources and opinions of retired officers. In the world of journalism, such sources are termed secondary sources.

Given the secrecy of Kargil operation in Pakistan and more so in India (where the govt. has refused to release the Kargil Committee Report), only the zeolously naive or decidedly mendacious can make any tall claims about the facts.

Which category do you belong to.. the zealously naive or the decidedly mendacious? I leave this up to you.

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#366 by HassanShah

I agree with your comments.

Territorial unity of Kashmir is the best way of addressing Kashmiri & Pakistani concerns. However, such a solution will not be acceptable to India (which is an important party to this conflict).

However, we can collectively address this conflict through another route as well i.e. convert the LOC into a loose border between IHK and POK. This so-called ``open borders policy`` will help the Kashmiris separated by the LOC to freely visit their relatives & engage in trade. IHK and POK can politically remain parts of India and Pakistan, but this should not prevent the social and cultural experience of Kashmiris living on both sides of LOC.

This solution will maintain the social unity of Kashmir, despite the territorial partition into IHK and POK.

#365 by arjun_m

++
The US government spends billions a year on drug enforcement and yet the drug trade is booming
++

There is a difference.

The US government doesn`t blame the drug trade on Osama, USSR, China, France, Hitler and what not. In contrast, the Indian government and media go to extreme limits to blame the entire Kashmir movement on Pakistan, and deny the strong indigenous roots of this conflict.

++
the fact on the ground is that India hasn`t given up one inch on the ground..as opposed to the fearless pakis who couldn`t do what India did in Kargil and throw out the Indians from the commanding heights of siachen..
++

Your arguments are founded on the flawed presumption it was indeed Indian Army that expelled the NLI and Mujahideen. Unless you have access to declassified Pakistani or Indian material, such statements are fantastic conjectures at best and delusions at worst.

Why should Pakistan oust Indians from Siachen? Since India is occupying the heights, Indian casualties (mostly from frost bite) and logistics cost is exorbitant compared to Pakistan. What has India gained strategically since it first occupied the glacier 19-20 years ago?? If the aim was to threaten the KK highway between China and Pakistan, that aim has not been achieved. Otherwise, it is just a matter of vain pride (at exorbitant cost) for India. I don`t see why Pakistan should waste money on expensive and futile endeavors like India`s Siachen adventure. For Pakistan, low-intensity conflicts such as Kashmir and Kargil (in particular) are most cost-effective and militarily strategic. Think about it.

stuka,

``Learn something from the Americans and fight only those battles that you can win. There is no honor in fighting and losing because it is the victor that will write history.``

......... i agree with you 100%...........

#361 by hamidm2

Precisely right. I don`t think walking away from the Kashmir issue will lead to anything, except perhaps letting India have a free hand to cater to the whims and fancies of Advani et al. Ideally, the people of Kashmir should be allowed to be independent. I don`t think there`s much truth in this nonsense about them not being able to survive on their own. The land is fairly fertile in the valley and tourism is bound to boom. Unfortunately, I don`t think granting the people of Kashmir the right to self-determination figures amongst India`s list of desirable outcomes. In fact, I think the only solution acceptable to India is for the world to stop condemning the attrocities in Kashmir and for the people of Kashmir to resign themselves to sacrificing the virgins at periodic intervals to appease the monsters in Delhi (as has been going on in Bombay, Gujrat and Ayodhya).

So yes, you`re right. At the moment, it seems the only two ways of resolving the issue are by either waging war and leaving a handful of people alive in both countries, or turning a blind eye to suffering and condoning the systematic genocide of the Kashmirirs. Both are clearly unacceptable. As a result, the status quo will persist. The people of Kashmir will continue to rise up against the Indian authorities, the Pakistanis will continue to champion their righteous stand and the Indian army will continue to live in fear and retribution for their misdeeds. History has shown that it is impossible to repress a nation that is willing to stand up for its rights and eventually, not only half of Kashmir, but all of it will be Azad.

And yes. The opinion on the other side of the border might be to only support causes that you can win, but please spare me this cowardly, opportunistic philosophy. You stand for what is right. Not what you can achieve and beat drums about... it is this mindset that allows you to achieve victory against all odds.

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HamidM:

``........... but if mrs thatcher can send an aramada to fight over a rock in the atlantic inhabited by forty thousand smelly sheep and forty unbathed englishmen, it seems wimpy to walk away from kashmir .............. ``

India screwed around with Sri Lanka too..and Bangladesh. But it kept its nose clean in China.

Learn something from the Americans and fight only those battles that you can win. There is no honor in fighting and losing because it is the victor that will write history.

I repeat again with reference to my earler posts:
Pakistani muslim is not the representative of the Indian muslims and the Paki guys shoulsd shut up and do not speak about the atrocities unless the Indian muslims want them to speak for them. They are requested to look into their own problems and try to do something for the Pakistani muslims first. They should pay attention on building roads, infrastructuren economy, judiciary and most important restoration of democratic institutions than wasting their resources in fattening the military machines. They should work more for peace than for war.
I hope this is clear to all.

hey gober_head:

i have trained you well. see how well now you respond to your name. btw i think of india as tattistan. and i am not the only one. want me to prove it?

hassan mian,

......... you are doing fine, but what is the endgame ?.......... in my view there are only two ways to settle this issue: 1) declare war, stop playing the lfo games and march onto sirinagar. 2) simmer down, bring it up once a year only on kashmir day, step up aid to the local insurgents (indigeneous), shut down the lashkars, and go about the business of ``normalizing`` relations with india ............. the chinese continue to threaten taiwan with missiles even as the taiwanese are investing billions of dollars a month in china ............ you don`t have to bend over just because the other guy is big and bad .......... i don`t put too much stock in this honor and pride stuff, but you don`t want to be a vegetarian`s bi**h either !........

............... on the other hand, if as a nation we decide that we were wrong for fifty years and are willing to walk away, it is fine with me ............the kashmiris can go jump in dal lake for all i care ........... but if mrs thatcher can send an aramada to fight over a rock in the atlantic inhabited by forty thousand smelly sheep and forty unbathed englishmen, it seems wimpy to walk away from kashmir ..............