Vajpayee’s Srinagar offer of Talks to Pakistan

#340 by puyu

++
Its a question of ego.do u guys give up an inch in any of the discusssions?
so when its the question of the collective ego of nations ...!!!

PS: please stop putting up this show of `concern ` for the Kashmiris.
there may be individuals who are genuine in their support of the kashmir cause but pakiland as a state just wants to revenge the humiliation it suffered on India`s hands ....this hypocrisy is abominable!!!
++

Its not a question of ego. Pick up any report of Amnesty International and you will realize that India`s brutal suppression of Kashmiris as indeed polarized Pakistanis in the anti-India camp. Before 1989, many Pakistanis felt that Pakistan was unnecessarily creating a mountain out of a molehill. This is largely because from 1947 to 1989, the Kashmiris never rose in arms against New Delhi or the puppet regimes installed in Srinagar. (There was an uprising in 1962 but collapsed quickly).

However since 1989, all Pakistanis, even those who are usually critical of the Army, are convinced of the Kashmiri disenchantment with India. It is no hidden secret that Kashmiris have lost something between 30,000 (Indian official figures) and 90,000 (Pakistani claims) lives. Approximately 700,000 Indian troops chase just a few thousand Mujahideen every year and still fail to crush the insurgency.

Given the strong cultural and religious ties between Kashmiris and Punjabis, it is no wonder that Indian brutalities on Kashmiri population evokes a psychological and emotional solidarity of Pakistanis with Kashmiris. When Muslim terrorists killed 56 odd Hindus at Godhra, Hindus living all over India felt sympathy for them. Well Kashmir is like that for Pakistanis.

That is why it is extremely important for India to curb the human rights violations in Kashmir and give Mufti Sayeed a free hand in J&K. If Mufti ends up being New Delhi`s voice in Srinagar (like Farooq Abdullah), the election of 2002 will end up being an exercise in futility. The ensuing chaos will once again motivate Jihadis all over Pakistan, Europe and Iraq to swarm to Kashmir.

Simply blaming Pakistani ego for Kashmir problem is quite a naive knee-jerk reaction. At the end of the day, don`t forget that the origins of discontent are in Kashmir, not outside it.

Has India succeeded in addressing that discontent?? This is the million-dollar question that Mufti Sayeed, Vajpayee and over 1 billion Indians need to ask themselves-- repeatedly. Until this discontent is eradicated, Pakistanis are justified in their skepticism of J&K state assembly elections, Kashmir committees, PDP and what not.

Is India prepared to let a J&K chief minister toe his own line?? Is India prepared to let the Kashmiris have limited autonomy within the Indian Union?? Moreover, is India prepared to reduce its military presence in Kashmir and punish those responsible for human rights excesses??

Your posts create the impression that it is Indians who are in denial (about their despicable human rights record in J&K) and pursuing an egocentric course of action.

Regarding #352 by Ralph on September 29, 2003 8:42pm PT
**
All his reasoning leads to ONLY TWO conclusions -

(1) Feed Pakistani military - for that stories about India have be spun and repeated regularly. That these stories never stand the test of reality doesn`t mean that by repitition they don`t build Pakistani fear psychosis.

(2) Pay lip service to anti Mullah awakening but maintain the Mulla-Military alliance rock solid by saving it from any attack.
**
Let me add some more points:

Indian muslims have a very clear understanding of PAki muslim elite`s games. They have repeatedly asked the Pakistani muslim elites to refrain from showing concern about their problems and training the ignorant amonst them in subversion and terrorist methods through incitement. THey want the guys like HE, HS, Musharaff to shut up and have requestds them to elevate the problems of their own co-religious brothers in the streets and villages of Pakistan, they have repeatedly asked them not to try and be spokes-persons to Indian muslims just to score some points in their own domestic territory.

But the very logic of the ``two nation theory`` on which the elites have buit the foundations of PAkistan INEVITABLY forces them to adopt this belligerent posture towards non-muslim ``them``. (Imagine if Pakistan was bordering America then would it have lived in peace?). THe ONLY SOLUTION is to re-built the SECULAR traditions of the original constitution of PAkistan and reverse the Islamization of Constitution which started with General Zia.

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01082002/01082002049.htm

Hassan

You seem to be a genuine pakistani, the typical one, with all of the energy focussed on solving the kashmir issue. Well that needs the help of another country, inputs from from people of another religion whom you all affectionately call as kafirs.
At least half the number of words you had written of kashmir were used on honour killings, may be quarter the words to wrte an article on abdus salam, we all would have been convinced about your homesty.
You are the bane of pakistan, an educated pakistani, trying out all the arguments to sustain a religious dicum of jihad and a firm believer that it is nothing other than killing kafirs.
Hassan, put your human rights credentials to the test, can you post this one liner, ``jihad is not killing of kafirs``.

dear hassan sha,
Is Pakisthan`s support making any positive change in Kashmiri lives?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Roohi (and others):

Firstly, I hope you have better sense than to believe that anything you read on the web is undeniable, irrefutable truth. Having said that, let me clarify that I have never stated that Pakistan is infallible. But that, or the million and one things wrong with Musharraf and the other politicians in Pakistan, does not mean that one should idly sit back and condone the brutality that goes on around the world. You asked me how I feel, and I`ll answer that question: I ``feel`` a lot worse about women being raped and innocent people being killed and tortured than I do about most other things. I`ve stressed this point once or twice before, but it seems to have been ignored. What is going on in Kashmir is wrong because of the savagery and oppression that is inherent there. The constant arguments about men and women suffering in Timbuktu do not change that or make it better. Yes, India`s occupation of Kashmir is not the only bloody chapter in history. But just because the Nazi regime consisted of some of the most evil men in the world does not make the Milosevics and Advanis any less guilty.

As an aside, do you grudge me the right to denounce the Indian government for its handling of the Kashmir issue ? Or do you insist that I blind myself to what`s going on across the border and follow Mr. John Doe`s suggestion on what ``nobler`` issues I should dedicate myself to ? Or would you rather that I abandon the demand that people get the right to self-determination ? I assume you to be sensible enough for none of these to hold true (of course it might very well be that after reading the yappity-yap posted by arjun_m and Indian -- the latter doing great justice to the motherland -- everyone else seems that way). If you merely want to me to realise that things are not perfect in Pakistan, well, rest assured that the fact is already well known to me and just because I have a very low opinion of the politicians in India does not mean I`m going to be any less caustic in my criticism of the issues that exist at home. For my part, however, I would like to stress that one can continue to strive on several fronts for a better, more peaceful, world.

# arjun_m

Quite a charmer aren`t you ? Well, dear friend, it seems you`re quite content to continue yapping about everything and anything (despite your obvious lack of knowledge on all subjects save perhaps the ideology of the RSS), without actually responding to the questions I asked earlier. Should I take it that the little pea in your headpiece filled with straw finds itself unable to deal with such profound philosophical enquiry or that you`re compensating for something else ?

But then again, it might simply be the fact that you`re busy with other committments and can`t bring yourself to focus amidst the excitement of what, understandably, has been a very big day for you (and many others in India):



My heartiest congratulations and bhabhi ko salam. Let me know if it starts to pour.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dost Mittar, Stuka

``in another year, he will peddle the exact same story.``

This is what is most remarkable about Romair. He will create a story. Naturally it will have no legs. People will show him how absurd his stories are. He will fall silent. A few months go by and there he is with exactly the same story! This is an unbroken pattern week after week, month after month.

Thbe reason for this is that Romair does not interact with Indians. He has no intention of doing so. He speaks to Pakistanis. He rakes up their fear -

most recent is that BJP is planning to kill all Pakistanis or convert them to Hindutva after killing all Indian Muslims

their honor -

we can not live as slaves of India

to the tolerant, he asks they not oppose the religious killers if they are Muslim -

if you are tolerant, you must tolerate religious fanatics, unless they happen to be non Muslim

To the young he spins yarns in place of history -

`Mathematical impossiblity theorem` about 1947.

To anyone who tries to step out of his military logic, he will agree with everything but come back with how India is such and such and that at least he is not willing to trust India!

So Romair has only one purpose on Chowk: to make sure that Pakistanis are not able to break throug the wall of surreal unreality that the military has woven around them. All his reasoning leads to ONLY TWO conclusions -

(1) Feed Pakistani military - for that stories about India have be spun and repeated regularly. That these stories never stand the test of reality doesn`t mean that by repitition they don`t build Pakistani fear psychosis.

(2) Pay lip service to anti Mullah awakening but maintain the Mulla-Military alliance rock solid by saving it from any attack.

It will be impossible to reach the real people of Pakistan without grasping how this wall of deceipt is built and maintained around them by the agents of their military.

hey gober_head:

how come you dont post anything on that disease of yours? and do you want me to prove i can find more material along those lines in respectable western newspapers? (although not as important in stature as ottawa sun)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#328 by dionysus

``Pakistan will never give up on the Kashmiri freedom movement. You can cry, rant, rave or threaten on Chowk as much as you like, but it won`t change a bloody thing.``

Very good.
That will hasten the end of this farce called Pakistan. Looked at the GDP growths of India and Pak lately? That is what Pak gets for 50 years of crying, ranting, raving for Kashmir.
Sridhar

To All Pakis

We will walk out of Kashmir and hand it out to Kashmiris as soon as it`s usability of sucking paki blood and money is over. Promise.