Vajpayee’s Srinagar offer of Talks to Pakistan

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gajendra sahib

Any Indian who is serious about peace and prosperity of Indo Pak and the whole region MUST stop using two phrases ``cross-border terrorism`` and ``infiltration``. Because this is something of hindu foreign policy construct that does not exist in the real world.

Use your common sense. The peace and prosperity will come to the region the minute hindus will stop the genocide of Kashmiri Muslims; you dont need to give up Kahshmir to have peace.

wafa karo gay wafa kareiN gay
Jafa karo gay jafa kareiN gay

ham aadmi haiN tere jaise
jo tum karo gay woh ham kareiN gay

#1 by arjun_m

The ``half the country`` that Pakistan did ``run`` does not have close to a million soldiers armed to the teeth committing all sorts of horrifying acts. It hasn`t barred Amnesty International and other human rights agencies from conducting an impartial analysis of the conditions being faced by the people living there and it most definitely isn`t littered top dire with carcasses of men, women and children. Also, the ``half the country`` you weakly attempt to build a case on provides its citizens with some degree of religious freedom and is not a small entity within a nation that has several times in the last decade or so turned upon its minorities (I`m talking about the Ayodhya, Bombay and Gujrat riots in case your memory seems to have quite opportunely failed you). Kashmir is a problem. Period. If you don`t know as much, you`re beyond reproach. Countries around the world must focus on it. You cannot lambast everyone who brings up the issue and says it is important.

You may try to bury your head in the deepest bucket of sand around, but face it; the entire struggle for independence would not have persisted for as long as it has if the local population was quite content with the Indian authorities. It`s unfortunate that the concerns of the people in Kashmir are scarcely addressed and this entire sordid affair continues to be ``resolved`` through bitter verbal exchanges by politicians on either side of the border who are more than content to draw lines on scraps of paper than to take into account the opinion of those directly affected by their decisions.

The problem of Kashmir persists because glorified demagogues like Mr. Vajpayee are more content pursuing the diplomatic lip-service you mentioned (and letting loose their thugs to tear down old buildings in Ayodhya), than actually striving hard to address these issues. I find your belief that war is the only way to solve things a reflection upon the sorry mindset that has probably impeded any real progress. Bludgeoning nations into bloody submission is a pervse notion of conflict resolution. You may think people are scarcely better than animals, but I for one still have some hope associated with the people of India and Pakistan.

I hope that diplomatic tussles and fiery debates bring you some perverse satisfaction, because they`re built atop the sufferings of thousands of other people on either side of the border.

Gajendra Sahib,

You have indeed expressed a noble vision of economic cooperation and trade between South Asian states along the lines of EU and ASEAN. But these groupings are a union of equals, in which all member states are roughly equivalent in economy, military and population. Moreover, there exist very few political differences between the member states. France, Germany, UK, Spain and Italy do not have any ``unfinished`` territorial problems among themselves. Moreover, these states do not view the EU as a battleground for rival nationalisms. Modern-day French, Germans, Spaniards and Italians do not subscribe to the rabid nationalism of de Gaulle, Hitler, Franco and Mussolini.

Similarly, ASEAN components are relatively stable democracies with no recent religious, territorial or political disputes among their members. Moreover, these nations are roughly equal in size and population. As a result, no member state can use its size, population, economy or military to dictate the agenda of ASEAN.

The biggest problem in South Asia is complete asymmetry between India on the one hand, and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal & Maldives on the other. This asymmetry exists in geographical size, population, economy and military.

As a result, any SAFTA will end up being an Indian Union (IU) that will fail to serve the economic interests of smaller states. A relationship between unequal members is not sustainable in the long-term. What complicates this problem further is the religious strife within India and territorial dispute between India & Pakistan.

Since India and Pakistan account for 85-90% of the SAFTA population, any disputes between these two states will practically paralyze the entire South Asian union. There are interest groups in both countries that benefit from such conflicts.

So can SAFTA proceed without resolution of these conflicts?? Answer to that question depends on how powerful (or malleable) these interest groups are.

#2 by Urstruly

I agree. I think this is part and parcel of the problem. The movement for independence is readily branded as ``infiltration``, with little attention being paid to the discontent of the local populace. Probably it`s easier to deal with ``cross-border`` incursions by beating the drums of war than to address other, more important issues.

Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that the only reason for the Kashmir issue is Pakistan`s foreign policy. Surely the struggles all over India (Assam etc.) would have convinced some sane individual that the government is repressive and does not provide the fundamental rights to its people. Again, as I said earlier, I guess it`s much easier to stir up national fervour than to seriously deal with issues.

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#3 by HassanShah on September 25, 2003 11:38am PT


``The ``half the country`` that Pakistan did ``run`` does not have close to a million soldiers armed to the teeth committing all sorts of horrifying acts. It hasn`t barred Amnesty International and other human rights agencies from conducting an impartial analysis of the conditions ....................``

hasan sahib kabhi history padhiya kare.land of pure buchered 3 mil. bangladeshi in 1971.
i think somethimes bangladeshi`s blood dont count in land of pure or bangladeshi not count as human as your point of view

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# by saminshah

Nothing could be further from the truth. Notice the ``does not have`` right at the beginning of the bit you quoted followed by the ``hasn`t``, i.e., I`m talking about the current situation in Kashmir as opposed to present-day Bangladesh. The point I was trying to make (in response to what arjun_m said) was that the reason Pakistan doesn`t harp about Bangladesh as it does about Kashmir is because Kashmir is still an area plagued by human rights abuses. I did not say that there have never been attrocities in Bangladesh (and, for the record, as with all unfortunate events in history I wish they had never taken place). I am merely saying that the present state of Kashmir and Bangladesh does not warrant comparison since bloodshed is still continuing in the former.

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I can`t think of a single dispute where two countries were at each others throats, they sat down to talk, and everything was resolved without a war..If it did, one side capitualted to the other side(Germany) or collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions(USSR).
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The U.S.-China detente in 1970 (facilitated by Pakistan) is a glaring example of two hostile nations making a compromise without going to war with each other. Lest you forget, China and U.S. had fought each other in bitter proxy wars in Korea and Vietnam. Nevertheless, neither country engaged each other directly. When the detente occured in 1970, America backed China`s entry into U.N. and China reciprocated by supporting the US against USSR (USSR had invaded Czechoslavakia that year).

Moreover, the notion that war can solve disputes... is flawed by itself. Despite military superiority and biological/chemical weapons, Iraq failed to settle any disputes with Iran after a brutal 8-year war. Post-war conditions were exactly the same as pre-war conditions. The status quo didn`t change despite 375,000 Iraqi deaths and 1m Iranian deaths.

There is no reason to suggest that India`s larger conventional forces could fare any better against Pakistan`s extremely effective defense. In practical terms, India`s only advantage over Pakistan is in air superiority. However, Pakistan`s low nuclear threshold neutralizes India`s conventional air superiority.

This basically means that even full-fledged war is not an option in the South Asian context. The only other options are economic attrition and low-intensity proxy wars.

Arjun#9

Bush plays a double game. He needs moral credence for all the immoral things that he is doing all around the world. He thinks Indians/Hindus as immoral as they are would be good support for him if he will support them. But Hindus should ask themselves this question: would it make their lives easier? The common sense tells us that it wont. If that approach had ever worked then there would have been peace in Palestine 50 years ago. But there is not. The fact remains that US has made the lives of its own allies, the Jews, as miserable as they could get. The fact of the matter is that there is close to 3 quarters of a million Indian army in Kashmir and not that of Pakistan`s. It is the coffins of Indian army personnel that goes back to Hindustan on daily basis and not that of Paksitan`s. It is Indian army committing acts of genocide and horrible crimes against humanity against its own people and not that of Paksitans`. You don`t need Bush to tell you that, a Kashmiri can give you the correct answer. If hindus think that the paradigm of US-soviet cold war applies here and one day they can make Pakistan buckle under economic pressures then I assure you that Paksitan is not USSR. We do not have a financial backbone, we never did, which makes us as flexible as it could get. We are used to poverty and have never been rich and never been a super-power either.

At the end of the day, it is a moral question that each and every hindu will have to face one day or the other, sooner or later: Is my behavior hurting my fellow human beings?

There is only one answer to this question. The minute you will have this answer there will be peace and prosperity in sub-continent.

#8 by arjun_m

My point (which seems to have eluded you completely) is simple; Kashmir is a present-day problem. Stating that nations around the world should forever live in the past and not be outraged at wanton acts of butchery that occur around them all over the world is ridiculous.

I never said Soniya was the panacea to all ails (though I do think she`s a lot better than the BJP/VHP hate-mongers that make India`s claim of being the world`s largest, secular democary sound a tad hollow). I merely stated that as long as people like Mr. Vajpayee remain in office, little progress is bound to take place. Of course if you`re convinced that India is incapable of producing a leader who might be able to rise to the enormous task at hand of achieving peace, then that is your own, personal belief. I tend to maintain a slightly higher opinion of the people across the border.

I don`t think what happened in Bangladesh was in any way justifiable, so please don`t make it seem that way. Had I lived thirty-odd years earlier, I would have been as strong in my denouncement of what was happening there as I am today of things taking place in India. Having said that, I fail to see how you can insist that historical events should render one insensitive to ongoing violence. It`s really not a valid comparison.

By and large, I hope everyone in India does not suffer from the same narrow-minded hatred and prejudices that seem to have taken hold over you (I`ve met a few rational individuals so I`ll continue to be optimistic). People like you are the root cause of the deplorable status quo and I`m glad I`m part of an independent state that saved me from being amongst your kind.

#7 by arjun_m

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The rest of the billion plus Indians have a message for you(and i summarize): BITE US..
++

Pakistan does not need to bite India. India is already being bitten by conflict in Gujrat, Kashmir, bomb blasts in Mumbai and fanatical kar-sevaks. So here is the message that 150m Pakistanis have for you: IF YOU CAN`T TAKE THE HEAT, GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN!!

Here is a glimpse of ``secular, democratic, tolerant`` India...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_391044,000900010008.htm

BAJRANG DAL BLASTS MOSQUE, FORCES MUSLIMS TO FLEE
DK Singh
Iklera (Jhalawar), September 25

More than a hundred Muslim families have fled several tribal-dominated villages in Rajasthan`s Jhalawar district after Bajrang Dal activists destroyed a village mosque with explosives and subjected them to a series of attacks over three consecutive days last week.

Nearly 30 people have been arrested in this connection.

Police have claimed that the alleged mastermind of these incidents, RSS`s Iklera tehsil karyawahak, Kanwarlal Meena, and his accomplice, Devi Lal, an ex-convict, are ``absconding``.

But Meena, a paramedic who now runs a local hospital, is readily available to anyone who wishes to contact him. He told Hindustan Times that the attacks were carried out by angry people, and not by Bajrang Dal activists.

The local administration has already started reconstructing the 20-25 feet wide mosque with the help of the community. Another mosque in Ratanpura village, which was partially damaged, is also being repaired.

Local Muslims complained that the harassment started a day after 14 Bajrang Dal activists were injured in police firing at Iklera police station on September 16. The activists had turned unruly after they were rounded up for travelling without tickets to Jhalawar to participate in a VHP meeting.

The next morning, Hafez Safwan Alam, the Imam of the Gehunkheri mosque, was stopped by a group of activists.

``They put a sword on my neck and forced me to take off my cap. Somehow I managed to escape into the nearby maize field. I later heard a blast from the mosque. When I returned I saw the rubble of the mosque and its charred remains,`` said Hafez.

The Muslims in Gehunkheri had learnt about the plan of attack on September 16 night and 12 families went to Iklera police station to seek protection.

The mobs, looted about a dozen houses and set fire to at least four houses and a sawmill. Smoke was billowing out of the houses when this correspondent visited Gehunkheri this afternoon.

Most of Gehunkheri`s Muslims escaped to Iklera, 15 km away, hiding under crops of maize and jowar and braving knee-deep mud. Siraj Ansari`s saw mill and tractor were burnt, and many others` cattle let loose and crops destroyed.

The same drama was enacted in four other villages in the next two days, the police confirmed. Most people have run away to their relatives in other districts and some to Madhya Pradesh. A few who have returned have left their families behind, said the Shehri Qazi Hafiz Lal Mohammed.

People of the community named Meena in seven different FIRs registered after the attacks. Meena claimed ``Angry people and not the activists caused only 10 per cent of the damage. The minority community damaged their own houses and vehicles to claim compensation.``

Meanwhile, tension is palpable in Iklera tehsil including the affected villages of Gehunkheri, Misroli, Kokhera, Arania, and Ratanpura, even as the administration is trying to bring back the families. Additional DGP (law & order) S N Jairath, said, ``Normalcy is returning and we have rehabilitated most of the families.``

A few miles outside Iklera we see a saffron hoardings: ``ideal Hindu village welcomes you`` proudly highlighting the that the Muslims have moved out. Saffron Bajrang Dal flags, have also come up on ``Hindu houses.``

Abdul Naeem from Iklera said that the Bajrang Dal and the VHP had been active in the area after Gujarat carnage and in the past two months they have held activities like mashal julus, sankalpa sutra and trishul deeksha and a meeting of 15,000 people at Gehunkheri on September 12.

The minority community constitutes about 20 per cent of the population in Iklera and in the past six months they have written several letters to the administration about the rising insecurity in the area.

Hassan shah # 14

The problem is that the secular hindu in particular or secualrists in general in India are a dying breed. They have become the dinosaurs who can entertain people in a museum but cannot make fly go away from their nose. Unfortunately we will have to deal with the ruling religious nuts. They, in my opinion, are doing a pretty good job of undoing fabric that binds the Indian union together. We just have to sit back and relax.

The matter is simple, as long as hindus have this ide fixe of pitribhumi and akhand bharat hovering over their heads like dirt fly, there cannot be peace.

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