Of Rites and Rights: An Interview with Asma Jahangir

A very sensible women, no doubt about that. How come the Pak Army allows her to keep talking like this?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

there are many countries that have conflicts with each other, yet they still trade and prosper, such as greece and turkey, north and south ireland... i dont know why indians and pakistanis cant also move forward, accepting the kashmir conflict but not letting it be the defining element in our relationship...

a rapporteur for the UN, and a winner of the Millennium Peace Prize for Women

Why are these Paki so fond of mentioning foreign prizes, awards, and accolades from farangi sources. In concrete terms what has this woman accomplished.? Does one have ever to find out what a maulana sattar edhi or a Hakim Saeed accomplished?

Lots of commies and back-into-closet commies have now turned professional protesters, sensationalisers, Propheteers of losers, and englo-`writers`.When among muslims, they tread between the lines and outside the circles to flash their agendas. Must always be kept there and never be allowed to be `open`.

They`ll never win.

Nice interview, its good to know that there are some people in Pakistan like Asma J.

I am so shocked that the Mullahs washed minar-i-pakistan after Vajpayee came to Lahore... thats so petty and just shows there mindset... i wonder if they would think of cleaning minar-i-pakistan in normal times???

i so agree with her that we cant just have kashmir, kashmir, kashmir... we have to know each other before anything will happen with kashmir, it miffs me off when our (Pak) govt talks about resolving kashmir issue before anything can happen with India, its just so stupid, and counter productive.

i personally think its very important for us to educate Indian ppl on Pakistan, in Pakistan we are so much more aware of India and its culture, through TV and films, but i doubt the average Indian knows much about Pakistan other than what s/he is fed by media...

the least the govt`s can do is to abolish visa restrictions and allow ppl to visit each other for up to a month or so at a time, or at least make getting a visa very easy and a non issue...

There is only one MAN in Pakistan politics. Her name is Asma Jahangir . All other are enuchs.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

First a welcome Anniqua:

Asma is indeed more than a match to the forces of jahiliya inside Pakistan represented by a loose amalgamation of pseudo mullahs and their delusional and hatemongering allies here on chowk…

(digression: abdul sattar edhi…the men who will never get west’s recognition is an exception…he is not a pseudo or real mullah…he is a true muslim…one who does not wear his religion on his forehead and more importantly one who helps alleviate misery…however one may spell it…)

…from her perch culture and education are perhaps important for opening doors…I tend to think that the existing un-official and under the table trade links between the two countries should also be formalized and opened up…

…the past fifty years of manufactured hostility and enmity in years to come will give in to normality…I hope

…but first thing first…the enemy has to be tackled: the removal of the occupying army from the equations

lve,

t

Asma Jehangir is a charismatic personality. I was at the Tariq Ali lecture and all of sudden there she was... I froze... got up, and offered her my seat.

She is one of those amazing people who deserve all our support...

``Loyalty comes from a country that will protect your citizens``

Precisely!!! This was the basic message of my letters that were published in Friday Times and Daily Times today.

-YLH

Ally:

``I am so shocked that the Mullahs washed minar-i-pakistan after Vajpayee came to Lahore... thats so petty and just shows there mindset... i wonder if they would think of cleaning minar-i-pakistan in normal times??? ``

You did not know this? This recieved maximum publicity in India and poor old man Vajpayee became a laughing stock of the Indian right. They ofcourse loved for it to happen because it reinforced existing perceptions.

An honest person like her can do a lot for India Pakistan relationship. Just knowing that there are some people like her in Pakistan is a matter of hope.

Its sad to see that asma jehangir thinks what happenes in gujrat was only bad cause it gives strength to anti secular forces in pakistan.....so much for her care about the HUMANS which got killed over there.

yeh and this supposedly amazing person is willing to promote any cause for a million bucks like she did in okara farms case......so if anyone wants to capture some government land and have her promote his/her cause then they can contact asma jehangir ````````the supposedly brillian human rights champion plus anti establishment....anti army....anti islam....and anti pakistan campaigner JUST FOR the heck of it```````` who is as hypocritical as they come.......

cheers

8:temporal, the god-abBa of Chowk.
from her perch culture and education are perhaps important for opening doors.

---

What culture? what education--and oh this PERCH, meaning how to sobotage islam? Muslims know such kind well. Muslims know how to counter them, the moment such kind abandon between-the-lines.

Islamic culture and Islamic education is on the rise. It is surging, it is growing exponetialy--EVERYWHERE. Even in post-commie land, where Islam was supposedly strangulated by atheist commies. And now the most recent convert is a former ARCHBISHOP. Do google, and find out the brand-new blue mosque next to kremlin. Even in main-land Russia it is flourishing-- thanks to the demise of Communism, atheism, and socialism.

(Young muslims in Pakistan and India also read this, most of it is for their pride & joy)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

echoboom

What culture? what education--and oh this PERCH, meaning how to sobotage islam? Muslims know such kind well….

…can you furnish your definition of (a)Islam and (b) Muslims please?

...t

ps:

should have emphasized your definition...please spare us links or cut n paste jobs

Is Echoboom Farangi Kush?

``My own children on a visit to India have been shocked to learn that many of my friends are Hindus, and they can’t reconcile to it for a while because of the learning they have done here.``

So, it appears that the hon`ble Jay was right all along.

There IS a K-for-Kafir education after all, in the land of the pure.

#4 Indian
Did you mean to say eunuchs ? I hope you did not graduated from IIT.

and for rest of chowkies, did JAY finally commited suicide or something. I have not seen him interact in a while.

Later

#14 by arjun_m

India is not doing Pakistan a favor by granting MFN status. The move is actually designed to increase market access for Indian industry which enjoys cheaper labor costs, economies of scale and a favorable exchange rate.

If India wanted to ``move ahead`` despite Kashmir, it would have no qualms in playing cricket in Pakistan. Moreover, Pakistan has already agreed to let Iran-India gas pipeline pass through Pakistani territory. It is India that has refused this proposal.

Clearly, India is only granting those ``favors`` to Pakistan that generate revenue for India but refusing those that generate revenue for Pakistan. Such selfish ``favors`` only suggest that India is as guilty of mixing politics with sports/culture/trade as Pakistan.

Asma Jehangir, with her deeds, has already proved herself to be a courageous and dedicated individual. She has boldly stood up for those suffering from injustice. This interview shows the straightforward and clear-headed personality that she is.

She is indeed a shining light of hope during these dark times in Pakistan. She represents the true spirit of the people of Pakistan.

I think someone should do a complete biography on people like her (and others like Edhi). Her deeds would serve to inspire a population that has been repeatedly let down by corrupt leaders and has nothing but clowns in political life today.

It`s natural for a peacenik like me to agree with everything Asma Jehangir says. I think people-to-people contact is more important than trade. In trade, there may be some losers on both sides, although I haven`t seen any Indian businessman opposing opening of trade between the two countries. But people-to-people contact is a win-win situation. If one baby noor to could swell millions of Indian eyes, imagine what scores of similar human stories on both sides would do to melt the walls of hatred!

[Even though we do have in our country the German Cultural Center the French Cultural Center, but we don’t have an Indian Cultural Center; we don’t have a Bangladesh Cultural Center, we don’t have a Nepalese Cultural Center; we don’t have a Sirilankan Cultural Center. We need something that is so close to us in culture, geographically, and in terms of certain value structures as well.]
Asma is being naive here. German or French culture pose no threat to the identity of Pakistan. But an Indian cultural centre strikes at the very roots of the `we-are-not-indians` identity of Pakistan.

[Lahore and in some ways it was not such a good experience with the army turning their back on him and Jamaat Islami going and washing Minare Pakistan after he left.]
This incident should not be equated with Kargil. I am sure there are people in India who might do similar acts in India during the visit of a Pakistani leader. The acts of the state is what should count and not that of a minority.

[My own children on a visit to India have been shocked to learn that many of my friends are Hindus, and they can’t reconcile to it for a while because of the learning they have done here.]
This is a real shock even for someone like me who has already read on chowk about the syllabus and texts used in Pakistani schools. I could not have imagined that the brainwashing at school is stronger than the bringing up in Asma Jehangir`s home.

HE:
[If India wanted to ``move ahead`` despite Kashmir, it would have no qualms in playing cricket in Pakistan. Moreover, Pakistan has already agreed to let Iran-India gas pipeline pass through Pakistani territory. It is India that has refused this proposal.]

Agree with you on cricket but not on the gas pipeline. There are real security issues for Indians in having a vital commodity like gas passing through hostile territory. Even the Pakistani govt. is in no position to guarantee the safety of the pipeline from non-state actors in Pakistan.
And whatever India`s motives in giving MFN status to Pakistan, it does have a right to insist upon reciprocity before accepting more items on Pakistani agenda. Pakistanis of Romair ilk are fond of repeating how Pakistan is tolerant in letting pirated Indian videos to be openly shown in Pakistan. However, Indians dont get a penny out of this theft of Indian product. OTOH, Indians do allow Pakistani artists to perform and record in India and receive royalties on the sale of their records there while Pakistan, to the best of my knowledge, does not reciprocate this favour.

stuka:
[Is Echoboom Farangi Kush?]
....I didn`t know you were a slow learner:-).

Asma Jehangir is indeed a bastion of modernity and commands the respect of a majority of Pakistanis. She has struggled for rights of women and minorities with utter determination. I wish her cause finds more followers in Pakistan.

Her political views will have to be taken in with with a pinch of salt. She adheres to the view that cultural exchange between the two countries will facilitate resolution of Kashmir conflict. I find that opinion too utopian.

#20 pardaisi

Spell error. How did u guess? Yes from IIT Powai. Bus no. 36 from Ghatkopar.

if asma jehangir is so hot and democracy is the answer, why does`nt she run for elections?

stuka #17 he is. also hamzad afaqui. apparently he cant stand his own posts, and kicks himself out of chowk every few months. then he comes back with a new nick hoping to start writing coherent sentences. but all that comes out in the end is some hodge podge about baa-baa-black sheep and islam and so forth. please help this man.

re:#20 by pardaisi
``#4 Indian
Did you mean to say eunuchs ? I hope you did not graduated from IIT.``
No. He graduated from LUMS, whatever the hell that is (I do not know and i do not want to know).
Sridhar

re: mantolives

A word of advice. Next time, when you are near Asma Jahangir make sure you guard your conscience very carefully. If she is the hope of Pakistan, then hope is a four letter word.

Ciao

dost-mittar #23: ``Pakistanis of Romair ilk are fond of repeating how Pakistan is tolerant in letting pirated Indian videos to be openly shown in Pakistan.``

You are making a false claim here. I have never stated that Pakistan is tolerant in letting pirated Indian videos to be openly shown in Pakistan.

What I have stated is that Pakistanis take interest in things Indians, including Indian movies, due to which they know more about India than Indians know about Pakistan. This is a fact. Though it has nothing to do with the tolerance of Pakistan, as a country. Pakistan`s policies, just like India`s policies, are quite intolerant towards its neighbor. However the attitiude of Pakistanis seems to be quite a bit less affected by such intolerant govt. policies, than the attitude of Indians. One of the reasons being the Pakistanis better kinowledge of India.

``Indians do allow Pakistani artists to perform and record in India and receive royalties on the sale of their records there while Pakistan, to the best of my knowledge, does not reciprocate this favour.``

Indians perform in Pakistan quite a bit. Daler Mehndi, Sukhbir, Lucky Ali to name a few. Sonu Nigam does the playback singing, I believe, for many of the new Pakistani movie songs, etc. etc. I assume the money the Indian artists make goes back with them. Other than Daler Mehndi, who does charity shows for Imran Khan`s hospital.

Indians do not record in Pakistan, because India has much better facilities. Pakistanis record in India, because India for the same reason, i.e. India has much better recording, editing, choreography etc. facilities. Pakistani television ads are made in India also. The main beneficiary of this are the Indian companies. Since all of the money from this goes to Indian companies who make the ads and organize the concerts. I assume the Pakistani artists take a salary just like the Indian artistst take a salary. In essence, it is a loss of Pakistani ad and studio industry, because they cannot compete with the Indian industry.

``Even the Pakistani govt. is in no position to guarantee the safety of the pipeline from non-state actors in Pakistan.``

The oil and gas industry is one of the areas in Pakistan which seems to be getting a lot of foreign investment, in comparison to other areas. Pakistan provides international gaurantees to all these foreign companies, otherwise they would not come to Pakistan. Similarly, Pakistani govt. has provided all kinds of gaurantees for the pipeline to both the Iranis and to India.

Could you highlight the non-state actors, who would be a threat? The only non-state actors I know of having done anything to any pipelines in the past decade are a few explosions that occured to Pakistani pipelines due to royalty issues between two Baluchi tribes. Not that big of a deal if you ask me. The financial loss, in comparison to the total commodity pumped through these lines over decades, was microscopic, since they have been around for so long, working well. I have seen the layout of the pipelines in Pakistan in a computer simulation. Gas from remote Baluchistan gets pumped through the length and breadth of Pakistan. And so far the system has worked well. I cannot recall turning on my gas heater in Islamabad and it not working. One or two explosions is not much. They get fixed quite quickly.

You need to keep in mind that Iran is involved also, which is an ally of Pakistan, and not a hostile country. In international contracts, international gaurantees are provided. Even in contracts where Pakistan was ripped off, like the Independent Power Plants, Pakistan was forced to honor the contracts, made by previous govts. at great loss to itself.

So there is really no ecnomic reason for India to refuse the pipeline. It is not dissimilar to India refusing to play cricket. It is simple politics, in which both countries are losing out.

I think India maybe pushing it too far, with its one-sided stances. Indians need to realize that Pakistan has just as many, if not more, complains against India, as vice-versa. Each country considers its complains to be legitimate. Each considers the other to be the biggest terrorist in the world. So Pakistan has every right to behave with India in the same manner as India behaves with Pakistan. Yet Pakistan is still trying to talk and play.

What will happen if Pakistan also adapts the same attitude as India? Sooner or later Pakistan will be forced to adapt equivalent policies of no talks, no cricket etc. Will we all be better off then?

So its about time, India got off its moral high horse, and started trying to solve the problems. Or at least started realizing that Pakistan consider it just as evil as it considers Pakistan. If Pakistan can consider India evil and still want to talk to it, then why cannot India consider Pakistan evil and still talk to it?

Considering someone evil does not mean one should not talk to them.

My own guess is that the BJP needs to create an evil out of Pakistan, to keep its votebank. And if talks start, they will invariably move towards Kashmir. And then towards a solution of Kashmir. And the internationally accepted and humane solution to Kashmir would result in a plebescite. And India is quite convinced that the Kashmiris will vote to separate from India. Hence, the best way to avoid this sequence of events is to not talk at all.

India needs to either convince (not through force) the Kashmiris to vote for India in a plebescite or it needs to give them their independence. At the same time, if India is convinced that the Kashmiris blame Pakistan, and not India, for all the terrorism in Kashmir, and that Pakistan is causing all the problem in Kashmir, or if it genuinely feels that the recent elections in Kashmir indicate a desire of Kashmiris to remain with the Indian Union, then it should call Pakistan`s bluff and ask the Kashmiris for their opinion, on this issue. It is India`s inablity to do any of the above, that is the cause of most of the problems between India and Pakistan.

Maybe if the Congress comes into power, it will agree to talk. Or maybe if Indians starting learning about Pakistan by taking interest in it, and then realizing that we are not the evil that their govt. has convinced them off, things may improve also.

From Pakistan`s side, Pakistan would be well-advised to drop all visa restrictions for Indians, even if Indians do not do the same. This will give a boost to Pakistans` tourist industry, and more importantly, will allow India to see Pakistan, thereby removing their prejudices. Not to mention the fact, that it will allow my many Indian colleagues to discuss Pakistan with me. Rather than all of us discussing India 100% of the time, due to their lack of knowledge of anything Pakistani.

One has to admire Asma Jehangir on certain issues. On top of this list is her fight for women`s rights in Pakistan. There is no denying that. It doesn`t matter whether one agrees with her or not.

And I do admire her for that. At the same time, I think she does go somewhat overboard in using that to get some cheap popularity for herself sometimes. One should be anti-establishment because one believes in it. One should not attempt to do it at the expense of others, who are not the establishment.

A lady whose views I have been following quite closely is Dr. Riffat Hassan. Interestingly, I saw her on Tariq Fateh`s show. I find my views on religion, women`s rights, etc. in Pakistan to be quite in line with hers - at least whatever I have heard from her so far. She is an activist, though not nearly as big as Asma Jehangir. But her views seem quite a bit more balanced on certain issues. Her and Asma Jehangir have been having somewhat of a disagreement in the press on certain issues. Following is her bio:

``Dr. Riffat Hassan is professor of religious studies at the University of Louisville, Kentucky and the founding director of the INRFVVP, a network of organizations to combat violence against women in South Asia. Dr. Hassan is originally from Pakistan and spent the early years of her life in Lahore where her first collection of poetry was published at the age of sixteen. Soon thereafter she proceeded to the UK to complete her studies in philosophy and theology, obtaining her undergraduate degree and doctorate from Durham University. She then moved to the United States and has taught at the University of Louisville for over twenty years. Her teaching and research career in the US also includes appointments at Harvard Divinity School, Oklahoma State University, Villanova University and the University of Pennsylvania. She is the author of numerous books and scholarly articles
on the status of women in the Muslim world and on ecumenical conversations between Muslims and other religious groups. Her ecumenical work has given her an opportunity to meet religious leaders including Pope John Paul and members of the Iranian clergy. Dr. Hassan is currently working on a book about the status of women in Islam entitled ``Equal Before Allah.`` Among her many honors and awards is her inclusion in Life Magazine`s compendium of 100 great voices on ``The Meaning of Life.``

Some info on her at http://www.cpsdv.org/Articles/hijack.htm

I believe her daughter Mehr is a movie actress and has appeared in movies in India and Pakistan.

RE #20 Pardesi ``#4 Indian
Did you mean to say eunuchs ? I hope you did not graduated from IIT.

and for rest of chowkies, did JAY finally commited suicide or something. I have not seen him interact in a while. ``

Sigh..the pitfalls of accusing others....

``I hope you did not graduated from IIT`` maybe revise to ``I hope you did not graduate from IIT``.
``committed`` not ``commited`` but really it should be ``did JAY finally commit suicide``.

Off corse I havn`t notised me speling deterioratin - but eye yuse a spel checka

faisaluno #25 holding a position of power is not necessary to providing public service. indeed, pakistan runs on the basis of work done OUTSIDE the government...whether it is education or health or poverty alleviation...this is the concept of pluralistic societies, and thank God that no military government, no religious party, has been able to stop the emergence of pluralism in pakistan.

re manto #9

Excellent letters. Yep, gotts go back to Dominion..or at least a simple Republic!

The minar-i-Pakistan behaviour of bhais & humsais.

It was not Jama`at Islami. It was some local ad-hoc louts. No organisation there. Asma is wrong here.

But when Musharraf visited Gandhi`s Samadhi the Shiv Sena did `purify` the smadhee by giving it a cow-urine bath.

Where can one find such reciprocating brotherhood or neighborhood?

16:temporal
can you furnish your definition of (a)Islam and (b) Muslims please?

---

I can. I won`t.
A muslim is supposed to know that.

``What is the definition of ``IS``?

---

President-zanee-Clinton, trying the smartass route.

Dear Anniqua Rana
Thanks for an impressive interview with Asma Jahangir.I loved one line by her``,Loyalty is not a birthright of any country.Loyalty comes from a country that will protect your citizens``.
This is the essence of my whole ideology.Country will be prosperous who`ll respect it`s citizens basic right of freedom,protection & prosperity.Unfortunately both India & Pakistan care less for the basic human right of average citizen.Instead focus more on strengthening their armies at the stake of their citizen`s prosperity.Now,Citizens of both countries are extremely insecured just b/c of their negative geographical ,regional & national politics.
Asma Jahangir is a well known Human right Activist.I am surprised ,in her interview she mentioned almost everything on co-lateral bases,except for a really burning issue regarding (humanity) Kashmir.In my point of view she should have mentioned this issue clearly with her own point of view.
I have a question for Asma Jahangir?? Why you did not clearly state your view on Kashmir?
I wish she could read this & reply here on this forum.
For years both countries have been fighting for this ,the most significant issue of unstable subcontinent & unfortunately
up till now both have come up with a net result of big(0).
So,that was then & this is now.........Now,at this point & time I`ll say loudly that both Pakistan & India are complete failures on this ,the most important issue of sub-continent which is affecting directly the poor populations of both rivals & destroying poor Kashmiris ,the most.In this process what I see clearly is Kashmiris are the ones who have been suffering the most at the hands of India.
At,the end my conclusion is let Kashmiris decide what is best for them.Three choices#1: To have an independent Kashmir with the addition of Pakistan`s Azad Kashmir.#2:-To be part of Pakistan.#3:To be part of India.
Why,oh,why India,being the secular country denying the basic right of Kashmiris to cast vote independently with out any pressure or negative politics?Why India is afraid to hold free elections in Kashmir as a referendum to see what poor ,deprived Kashmiris want?A big Why?Why India is snatching Kashmiris right to be free or feel free?Why India is enslaving suppressed Kashmiris?Why this dictatorship?Why this massacre of Kashmiris daily at the hands of India?Why,oh,why?
In my point of view this is the only & prime solution to peace process in the region.
Independent Kashmir is a new global reality,the only solution & self determination to bleeding Kashmir at the cruel hands of India.Why India is denying Muslims of their political,religious & human rights?Why,oh,Why?
India clearly is showing constant discrimination against already oppressed
Muslims since 1947.India is persistently harrassing Kashmiris by well planned genocide of the Kashmiris,destruction of the Muslims holy shrines,torture,intimidation & humiliation of Muslims at each & every level nation wide.Kashmiris life & liberty is at stake by being part of india.Kashmiris are being deprived of Kashmiris Values by india.
Conclusion:-Kashmiris have every right to declare their basic right of freedom
by having an independent state .........Independent Kashmir
India should give up on Kashmir now & should realise the need of Kashmir is imminent & should accept the very importance of nothing ,but,.......Independent Kashmir.
India now,clearly wants to divert the attention of UNO in a totally negative game play propaganda to make every one believe that Kashmiris are Terrorists.India is taking the advantage of American labelling game of terrorists.What else can be expected from so,called secular India?India is now,playing fierce,drastic,& dirty drama of labelling innocent Kashimirs as terrorists.India is worst than Nazis .India`s clear intentions are to make Kashmir a big cemetry for alive & to be murdered Kashmiris.God(Al-Mighty) knows how many more Kashmiris will be murdered?How many more women will be raped?How many more Kashmiris houses will be set on fire?How many more Kshmiris children will be massacerd in the name of terrorism?How many more old age Kashmiris will be crippled ?When India will stop this blood shed & have mercy on poor Kashmiris by giving them basic right of freedom?When,oh,when?
I hope Asma Jahangir will have time to answer this question of mine.Thanks

Some three years ago, we had a discussion with late Bilal Ahmed about 10 most distinguished Pakistanis. Asma Jahangir and Sattar Edhis` names was most frequent in the lists by various interactors including mine. I still believe she is one of the top 10 most distinguished Pakistanis alive.

A careful reading of the interview reveals why she is near the top. Her work has not cause any lives lost, any property damage, any disturbances, or anything bad. I must congratualte the interviewer too for asking some of the best question there could be asked.

Derailing Lahore peace initiative followed by Kargil leading to overthrowing civilian government in Pakistan by the bitch are three stages of the one game plan with the planners making the most out of it and, in fact, making BJP look like more peace loving than him and his coaterie.

Re Air Vice MArshal

``A lady whose views I have been following quite closely is Dr. Riffat Hassan.``

I see her columns in DAWN and elsewhere. I`m not surprised you like her. She is the sanitized, politically-socially more acceptable mirage of Asma Jehangir.

What makes Ms. Jehangir so singularly great is that in spite of everything she has chosen to fight the fight in the thick of battle-in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. A woman who can look blood-thristy tyrants like Zia and GIK in the face and not blink and then take wannabe democrats to task: the woman ought to get a Nobel Prize. THere is simply no comparison. This is a woman whose record tells most men in Pakistani politics (who have titles like `Sher` and `Badshah` and `Mard`) to `chullu bhar pani mein dub maro`

Riffat Hassan is a first scholar and a very concerned extatriate. She is no Asma Jehangir.

Anniqua,

Welcome to Chowk! And thank you for a timely interview. As usual, its always good to hear the sanity of a thinking woman`s ideas. Esp. in these times.

Romair:
[What I have stated is that Pakistanis take interest in things Indians, including Indian movies]
Pakistanis watch Indian movies not to take interest in India but for the same reason that Indians were watching PTV dramas not too long ago, which is that like the entertainment value provided in them.

[Indians perform in Pakistan quite a bit. Daler Mehndi, Sukhbir, Lucky Ali to name a few.]
A google search revealed thatt these are the only ones. Sukhbir is British Asian and Daler Mehndi did a charity show, I am not certain what the terms of Lucky Ali`s performance were. I do know it for a fact, from talking to one or two visiting Indian ghazal singers, that they would love to perform before Pakistani audiences but are not allowed by Pakistani govt. On the other hand it seems that whenever I am in India, there is more than one Pakistani artist there on a performance tour.
Pakistani artists recording in India whom I was referring to were doing so to sell their records in the Indian market only; I had always assumed that their records sold in Pakistan are manufactured in Pakistan. Are you telling me that this is not the case?

[Could you highlight the non-state actors, who would be a threat?]
Is this a trick question? I am sure you are aware of all those organizations starting with lashkar, jehad, etc. They may not sabotage Pakistani pipe lines, or even pipelines leading to India during normal times but India has to think of security situation during crises periods.
But I would agree that security is only one issue. The fact is that in the current situation of hostility, each side is unwilling to concede anything that will help the other, such as India giving Pakistan a billion dollar income bonanza of rental income on pipeline, or of Pakistan saving money by buying cheaper Indian drugs, tea or other products instead of paying more to more distant countries. The impact of such beggar-thy-neighbour policies on India is small but I suspect it may not be the same in the case of Pakistan.
On Kashmir, you haven`t said anything here that you did not in your hundreds of earlier posts. I too would like to see the Kashmir problem resolved, and that too without men getting out of planes from distant lands carrying roadmaps in their pockets to suit THEIR interests.
But frankly, I doubt your total sincerety in this respect. Otherwise you would be firing your cannons at Musharraf in every post. Nawaz Sharif and several interlocutors have repeatedly said that Vajpayee and Nawaz had agreed on both a roadmap and a time table for the resolution of the Kashmir problem at Lahore. It was your favourite army which suddenly saw the prospect of its halwa being removed from the table and torpedoed the whole process.
But the point Asma is making is not to make Indo-Pak relations a hostage to the Kashmir problem. I would go further and ask how long Pakistan will allow itself to remain hostage to its Kashmiri obsession? Why can`t Pakistan do what India has done wrt China and China has done wrt Taiwan, namely not let their `principled stands` with respect to the other country stand in the way of normal relations in mutually beneficial areas? This is where people-to-people contact comes in. Both parties come out winners and prepare favourable public opinion in the two countries to the point where give and take can take place on more contentious issues.

echoboom

can you furnish your definition of (a)Islam and (b) Muslims please? --temporal

I can. I won`t.--echoboom

---

...i expected this...my god smiles...

...t

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Most Readable!!!
Kashmir and Indian Muslims
By Anwar Ali
A seminar was organized in Saharanpur recently by the local branch of ‘Milli Talimi Trust’. The topic of the seminar was ‘Role of Ulama in the War of Independence’. Many good speeches were delivered and crusading spirit and high moral characters of ulama of the past were emphasized.

But an important question that arises is ‘Will the ulama of the present day, specially those invited for this seminar and other prominent ulama whose names were included in the invitation follow the examples of previous ulama?’

Among the ulama of the past, two are great generals of the war of independence viz Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani. For the present and under the existing circumstances the two most important problems for the future of Muslims are Hindu-Muslim problem and Kashmir problem and for both these problems the thoughts and activities of these great ulama are very important.

Maulana Azad wrote in his paper Al-Hilal in 1912 and subsequently said in his presidential address in the Khilafat conference at Agra in 1921 about Hindu Muslim problem and ‘the problem of nationality.

‘Hindu-Muslim unity is essential for India’s deliverance or freedom and also for Muslims to give their best performance in India. This is my belief which I have already declared in 1912 in the first issue of Al-Hilal. It is the religious duty of Indian Muslims to forge the bond of love in all sincerity with Hindus of India and become one nation along with them. They should mix up with twenty-two crore Hindus of India in such a way as to become one nation of India. Muslims of India will give their best performance when they will become one with Hindus’. (Ref. Khutbat-e Khilafat, pp. 87-88 ‘Marsia’ Prof. Mahmood Ilahi, Publisher: Urdu Academy, Lucknow).

In this way the late Maulana Azad induced Muslims in order to adopt the political principle of ‘Indian United Nationality’. This political belief of his is as important even now as it was during the days of Khilafat movement.

Sheikhul Islam Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani has described in detail this principle of ‘United Nationality of India’ in his famous work ‘United Nationality and Islam’. The political theory presented by him in this book in brief is: ‘Nations are built with motherland not with religion. This is to say, the basis of nationality is motherland. The Indian peninsula, with the Himalayas in the north, Indian Ocean in the South, Bay of Bengal and Arakan hills in the east and surrounded by Arabian Sea in the west is a geographical national unit, and its inhabitants, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians form one ‘United Indian nation’. This principle of united nationality or nationhood is the basis of Constitution of India and the soul of the principle of secularism.

Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was formerly, during a major part of his political career, was a believer in this principle and took pride in calling himself a disciple of Gokhle. Later on (after 1934) he became a standard bearer and champion of separate nationality and two-nation theory. The hero of Sarojini Naidu and the ‘ambassador of Hindi-Muslim unity’ got the country partitioned. But in his first speech of 14 August 1947, which he delivered in the inaugural session of Pakistan’s Legislative Assembly. He abandoned the two-nation theory and openly presented the theory of United Pakistan Nationhood’. He presented a blueprint of a secular, democratic and progressive Pakistan where in all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians will be free and independent Pakistani citizens.

In short, the basis of a bright future of India (including Pakistan and Bangladesh as well) is the theory of united nationhood. Same was the theory or concept of the crusading ulama of freedom as well.

The Muslim mind projected by Maulana Azad and Rafi Ahmad Qidwai about the Kashmir problem was the same concept of united nationhood. Having faith in the same concept Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah was a strong champion of Kashmir’s accession to India and he described the accession as final.

And now, voices are being raised that the Kashmir Valley should be declared an independent territory and the Kashmir problem should be solved in this way. The Sangh ‘Parivar’, which believes and is working for a ‘separate nation of Hindus’ in accordance with the political ideology of Hindu Mahasabha and Jan Sangh calls Muslims as ‘they’ and Hindus as ‘we’. If Kashmir is divided and this problem is proposed to be solved by declaring Jammu (Hindu), Laddakh (Buddhist) and Kashmir Valley (Muslim) as regional units, this solution will have an adverse effect on the future of Muslims of India. Ismat Jahangir, head of Pakistan’s Human Rights Commission, in an interview to The Times of India correspondent expressed the fear that such a solution may result in Hindu backlash and even the security forces will not be able to control their feelings of ‘Hindutva’.

It is now the need of the hour that the ulama associated with Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind following in the footsteps of their predecessors and other ulama associated with Milli Council, Muslim Personal Law Board, Imam Bokhari, Sayed Shahabuddin and other intellectuals and important personalities should come forward to lead the Muslims. They should take practical steps following those of Maulana Azad and Rafi Ahmad Qidwai and in support of Sheikh Abdullah’s stand. They should also declare in loud and clear words that Muslims should also be included in any talks regarding Kashmir problem and that no solution of Kashmir problems will be acceptable without inclusion of Indian Muslims and that the problem of Kashmir should be solved on the basis of united Indian nationhood.

Let us hope that the organizers, ulama and others participating in the Saharanpur seminar will issue statements in detail and impress upon their central leaders to leave aside their political and other differences and unanimously declare that Indian Muslims believe in ‘united Indian nationhood’ of their founding predecessors and that solution of Kashmir problem will not be acceptable at the cost of ‘United Indian nationhood’. (Translated from Urdu) 
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01082002/01082002049.htm

Why the Kashmir question is being forced upon Indian Muslims by Pakistani elites?

The elites of Pakistan suffer from a sense of rootless-ness and their conscience constantly raises the doubt about whether they made the right choice of migrating to their make believe ``Pure-Land`` or not. They are flabbergasted when they find indian Muslims staying without the horrors and miseries that were evoked by the Muslim League leaders in 1947 when they were forced to choose the two nation theory.
2. Now after 50 years, the Pakistani elites are the worst enemies of Indian Muslims because they want to see the Indian Muslims living in misery in the land of hindu kafirs(as they are made to believe in their text books)because their very healthy existence is a dis-proof/a refutation of the very foundation of two nation theory(i.e. the Hindus and Muslims cannot live together). The smiling Indian Muslim is an affront to their existence as a member of their fabled Pure-Land..... So he wants to see their smile turned into miseries.
3.These Pakistani elites (army is one of these elite groups)whose legitimacy is at stake train the terrorists so as to incite the communal passions and competitive communalist politics would create further divisions, alienation in the minds of the Indian Muslims.
4. Pakistanis hate India because they hate their origins, just as an illegitimate child hates his parents.(Can Pakistani Muslims call India as their homeland??)
The only solution is that the Indian Muslims should repudiate the choice made by their elders in 1947 to live in the secular India and tell the paki muslims to ``buzz off`` and continue living in their purest-lands for eternity.

hey arjun_m:

we might be poor as church mice but we are still dill waley. in comparison, you have been displaying your sickness on chowk for years and yet how many of your countrymen have offered to help you out?

http://www-usa.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2003/SEP/255886_PAK_14SEP2003.html

In a heartwarming move, Pakistan`s cricketers have decided to donate a percentage of their earnings to a fund for former Pakistan players. Speaking to Reuters, Inzamam-ul-Haq, Pakistan`s captain, said, ``We have decided that every player in the team will donate five percent of his earnings from every match for a former player.``

arjun_m

your views seem as worthless and useless as arjun tank used by the indian army. ;-)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#tahmed32 (specifically) and few others

Asma Jahangir. GOD

I may or may not agree. But must bow down. No choice.

Could you please export this gem to us Horrible Hindians (Chowk terminology as I learnt). I will be more than happy to send something back. Let us negotiate:)

Yogiraj Patil

#48 by ballukhan

++
The elites of Pakistan suffer from a sense of rootless-ness and their conscience constantly raises the doubt about whether they made the right choice of migrating to their make believe ``Pure-Land`` or not.
++

This is an incorrect impression created by the extremist Indian media and politicians. The people who migrated from East Punjab to Pakistan suffered such unspeakable atrocities at the hands of Sikhs and Hindus, that they have no desire of going back. Within one generation, these immigrants from Jullundhar, Amristar, Ludhiana and Chandigarh established themselves as businessmen in Faisalabad, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Multan.

Similarly, the Urdu-speaking immigrants from UP/Bihar are now part of the Pakistani power structure. They could never form a government of their own in UP/Bihar. In Pakistan, however they are in full control of Sindh province where they control Police, municipal authorities, revenue boards and almost every provincial ministry.

Rootlessness may have been a problem for first-generation migrants. They had to leave their homes and relatives in India for another land 56 years ago. But second-generation migrants (i.e. Urdu-speaking people in their mid-30s or younger) have no emotional ties with India. Their roots lie very much in Karachi and Hyderabad where they were born and educated. These people are now ``sons of the Pakistani soil``, just like the Sindhis, Baluchis, Pashtuns and Punjabis.

++
Now after 50 years, the Pakistani elites are the worst enemies of Indian Muslims because they want to see the Indian Muslims living in misery in the land of hindu kafirs
++

To the contrary, Pakistan is highlighting the atrocities commited against Indian Muslims (especially in Kashmir and Gujrat) by Hindu fanatics. The BJP government is trying its best to cover up the role played by Modi in Gujrat, whereas Pakistani govt is asking the entire world to take notice.

++
The only solution is that the Indian Muslims should repudiate the choice made by their elders in 1947 to live in the secular India and tell the paki muslims to ``buzz off`` and continue living in their purest-lands for eternity.
++

That`s a confusing statement. Are you saying that Indian Muslims should stay in secular India?? Or should they repudiate the decision to stay in secular India??

hey arjun_m:

l still would rather get deported then deal with that small problem at home. how about you? which one do you prefer? btw could you also please speed up the process. you have been threatening to get me deported for the last two years and i wanting to save on the airfare have not gone home in that time. and you dont make idle threats do you?

#46 by arjun_m

Having failed to use military leverage against Pakistan, India is now embarking on a new strategy: offer economic sops to Pakistan (trade, cricket, pipeline) instead of making a political compromise (J&K).

Will Pakistan compromise its political stance on Kashmir for the sake of economic sops??
This pretty much depends on how much India can squeeze Pakistan`s economy. Or put it another way, how much India can benefit Pakistan`s economy. Under present circumstances, India is not in a position to do either. For this reason, the Indian leadership is simply buying time until India is in a position to significantly impact Pakistan`s economy.

Whether this assumption is realistic, only time will tell. But one thing is for sure. Vajpayee`s offer of peace is not borne out of sincerity or any desire for peace. Political compromises are hard especially for fundamentalist parties like BJP.

#56 by HisExcellency
//..the Indian leadership is simply buying time until India is in a position to significantly impact Pakistan`s economy...//

You are right - I think this is one part of the overall strategy to neutralize the junta next door. As you said - only time will tell if it succeeds.

As for the peace offer - as usual - you pakis are misreading the whole thing. I am baffled why you guys are so delusional - is there something in the freaking water over there!! I mean - as soon as somebody in India says ``Peace offer`` - pakis jump up and down like baboons smelling a ``political compromise`` on a golden platter. (They convince themselves with all kinds of grand theories like how the brave ``freedom fighters`` are bleeding India white and hindus have been brought ot their knees)

But the facts are exactly the opposite. There would never be any ``compromise``, political or otherwise, from India at any time. It is simple - what you guys cannot win in all those half-a$$ wars you fought(and lost), you cannot win it thru a ``Peace offer``!!

So when Vajpayee says ``peace`` - all he is saying is - live and let live. I want nothing from you and you get nothing from me. You are a little ugly dwarf anyway - you have no money, no friends(not anymore), no economic strength or prospects, no political strength. So why the fk do you keep frothing at mouth - like a drug-addicted looser - chanting ``give me kashmir`` ? Let me help you - here is the face saver - a ``Peace offer`` - the best exit strategy for you to break ``kashmir-runs-in-blood`` addiction. Take it or leave it.

But Of course, pakis don`t get it. So they wait and they wait - nothing falls into their collective laps. Like frustrated baboons - then they start their usual breast-beating - India is not ``Sincere`` , Vajpayee has no ``desire`` for peace!!

yogiraj #53 She is indeed a remarkable person. As with many other good things in life, I think she can belong to all of us - Pakistani or Indian.

Just like Gandhi has inspired the world with his concept of nonviolence (which I think is probably the single most important concept for mankind if we are to survive this century, given the massive capacity for destruction that we now possess). The more (people sharing the same sensible set of values like nonviolence, or like justice for the weak as Asma Jehangir seeks with her actions) the better the world will be for future generations of pakistanis and indians.

HE #56 Is Kashmir (or any piece of land) worth one single life?

Think of it this way:

a. Think of that one single life as your own life.
b. If a Kashmiri really cant stand to be part of India, he can migrate to Pakistan.
c. Even if Kashmir became a part of Pakistan, would the average Kashmiri have any more political freedom? or religious freedom (remember that in Pakistan his chances of getting shot while praying in a mosque would be much more than in India)? or economic freedom?
c. There are far more Indian muslims in India than Kashmir alone. Indeed, if you care for the rights of Indian muslims, why not think of Gujrati muslims who are under threat from Modi`s hindutva government, while that is not the case in kashmir.

Keep thinking along these lines, and you will come increasingly to realize that the Kashmir dispute is like a land feud. Where the feud goes on for generations, results in people getting killed, impoverishes the feuding parties, and promotes the interests of only those who benefit from hostilities (the military boys, which is certainly very true for pakistan, as well as the religious extremists).

I doubt if you will change your thinking on the basis of this one post. But what the hell...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#44 by arjun_m

++
Indias economy is growing by leaps and bounds while pakiland only appears in the news when the news is about terrorism.
++

That`s because you are reading the wrong newspapers and talking to the wrong people.

Over the last year, BBC has praised Pakistan`s economy on several occasions for its resurgence in the face of Indian mobilisation, War on Terror in neighboring Afghanistan and cancellation of several export orders in 2002. Still, Pakistan registered an increase in exports, foreign reserves, federal revenues and the world`s best performing stock market.

Pakistani economy does NOT need Indians to vouch for it. The people who really matter to Pakistan are Saudi investors, Pakistani expatriates, Pakistani private sector, American investors, etc. The first 2 groups are already pouring their offshore dollars into Pakistan, especially the real estate markets of Lahore and Karachi. The last 2 groups are simply waiting for the geopolitical situation and anti-corruption drive in Pakistan to come to a closure.

++
The civilized world thinks Pakiland supports terrorism?
++

Here is another one of your arjunisms... HEHE

Incidentally, the leader of the civilized world conspicuously omitted India from his list of terror victims during UNGA speech:

``Twenty-four months ago and yesterday in the memory of America, the center of New York City became a battlefield and a graveyard and the symbol of an unfinished war. Since that day, terrorists have struck in Bali, in Mombasa, in Casablanca, in Riyadh, in Jakarta, in Jerusalem, measuring the advance of their cause in the chaos and innocent suffering they leave behind. ``

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/23/sprj.irq.bush.transcript/

And you thought India could take the world for a ride by presenting Kashmir movement as terrorism?? Well, the joke is on you :))

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#56 HisArrogance

prattles on:

[quote]
Vajpayee`s offer of peace is not borne out of sincerity or any desire for peace.
[end-quote]

So what??? Your juvenile ramblings clearly demonstrate your ignorance of how mature nations work. When the USA reached out to China, was it based out of ``sincerity``? When the Indians went to China and made deals was that based out of ``desire for peace``?

Intelligent nations with positive goals attempt to move forward with their neigbors. They try to creat a ``win-win`` situation. China claims all of Taiwan and yet today has $10B trade with it !!! But some nations lack any positive goals, they are the ``NOT`` nations. Enmeshed in their negativity they can never be anything except spoilers and rent-seekers.

This silly and immature talk about ``lack of sincerity`` and other emotional drivel exemplifies the pakistani elites complete lack of understanding of how progress is made in national relations.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#60 arjun_m

You will recall that the last time HisFradulence was babbling about IT in Pakistan, I had downloaded a bunch of reports from Gartner. Basically, none of them listed Pakistan as a player. The only mention of Pakistan was as part of a war threat to India.

What can one say? Soon after that HisFradulence said ``oh, but we are all on the same page`` etc. Now he is back to his silly claims....

HE:

``Having failed to use military leverage against Pakistan, India is now embarking on a new strategy: offer economic sops to Pakistan (trade, cricket, pipeline) instead of making a political compromise (J&K). ``

India`s problem is not a political compromise but a geographical one. Iit is Pakistan that has geographical as well as political issues with Iindia.

India has flat out refused to compromise in the geographical sense. Even during Lahore, Vajpayee was very careful to not promise any land. However, Iindia is more than ready to make a political paradigm shift in Indo-Pak relations, like it is doing with China.

You are right on the matter of buying time. Musharraf is not amenable on talking on issues without land transfer. So India is waiting him out, hope being that as and when Musharraf is finally pushed out and civil leader comes in, actual normalization can begin.

TAhmed:

Right on the money as usual. Iit is exactly that..a land feud. Neither India nor Pakistan have a moral edge.

Historically speaking, Pakistan`s mantra on human rights in Kashmir is as bogus as India`s on East Pakistan (think Nagaland counter insurgency ops) It is all a question of conflict management.

I do disagree with you about human lives versus national interest. What I genuinely do not understand is Pakistan`s willingness to sacrifice it`s present for a piece of real estate that it has lived without for 55 years. How is that real estate Pakistan`s jugular vain in real terms (as opposed to rhetorical)

That is why, though I don`t have a lot of respect for Rajeev Gandhi in general, Ii respect his farsightedness in reducing our adversarial relations with China by giving up on the rhetoric of ``recovering every inch of land``.

Yes, lives are worth sacrificng. But is recovering real estate with so much of a downside really Ppakistan`s real national interest? Similarly, India claims all of POK but attempting to do so by force is not in India`s national interest at all.

Siachen is another example. Occupying the heights provide a tactical advantage. Bbut if the Kashmir issue is resolved, it is in India`s self interest to vacate it and make it no man`s land.

#67 by stuka

I agree with your comments. Waiting Musharraf out of office could be a plausible motivation for India`s decision to go slow on the talks offer.

However, if MMA-Musharraf talks end successfully, then Musharraf will get a 5-year stint as President. In that case, pressure for talks will mount on India because the ``wait-Musharraf-out`` strategy can only be applied in the short-run. It certainly can`t last another 5 years, because of the high nuclear stakes involved in Kashmir.

BTW, what do you think of the sudden challenge raised by Wesley Clark to George Bush? Opinion polls suggest a 3% lead for Clark just 1 week after his announcement to enter Presidential race!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#60 by arjun_m

++
we`re still waiting for you to produce a URL for your claim that Pakistan exports 400million$ of IT(even 130million).
++

Refer to the discussion on state of Education in Pakistan. I had posted a link to the ``Outsourcing Report`` from CIO Magazine conducted in Nov 2002``. In that post, I also reproduced a summary of the ratings (geopolitical risk, market size, weaknesses, strengths, english proficiency). Besides this info, that link also contained market size info for all the profiled countries including Pakistan.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#63 by tahmed32

Kashmiri Muslims are in a majority in J&K. Under the India Independence Act, majority populations cannot be asked to migrate. This is like British asking Hindus to leave India and migrate to another country if they didn`t want to live as a British colony.

tahmad #63: ``b. If a Kashmiri really cant stand to be part of India, he can migrate to Pakistan`

This is an interesting theory. Would you be willing to apply it to Bangladesh also? As well as to a Shia Iraq dominated by a Sunni minority under Saddam Hussain? Should the Iraqis have migrated?

Do you believe anyone who is occupied should migrate? What if they cannot migrate?

Would a better solution be to not occupy anyone to begin with, and let everyone decide how they want to live?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

This lady seems to genuinely desire peace. If there are some people in Pakistan not bent upon hurting India, Indians should work with them. In this lady`s honor, I wish Pakistan good luck in all its endeavors that are not aimed against India.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref HisExcellency #19

[#14 by arjun_m

Pakistan has already agreed to let Iran-India gas pipeline pass through Pakistani territory. It is India that has refused this proposal.

Clearly, India is only granting those ``favors`` to Pakistan that generate revenue for India but refusing those that generate revenue for Pakistan. Such selfish ``favors`` only suggest that India is as guilty of mixing politics with sports/culture/trade as Pakistan.]

Shell is expanding the LNG terminal on Gujarat coast to import even more gas from Oman, Qatar and such places in the Persian Gulf. When I say ``expand``, I mean to something like one of the larger ones on the planet.

Looks like the Iran-India gas pipeline through Pakistan is more a Pakistani pipedream than a pipeline.

Look on the bright side: that will be $600 million a year that the Pak Army won`t get its hands on. The poor folks of Pakistan haven`t lost anything -- in fact, they would be robbed less.

re HE
``And you thought India could take the world for a ride by presenting Kashmir movement as terrorism?``

Any movement that deliberately targets civilians, endorses acid-throwing on girls, and proclaims a dress code to be followed by others is, by definition, a terrorist movement. Whether India exploits that successfully or not does not deduct fro the inherent terrorism in the `jihad` for Kashmir. India`s failing has been its inability, in spite of the 70K troops there, to eradicate this menace while occasionally holding parleys with terror outfits itself.

And I am someone who has long supported, and continute to do so now, the right of plebiscite for ALL of J&K (yes, that includes the misnomer `Azad` Kashmir).

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Stuka #68 arjun #73 Romair #76, HisExcellency #75: You all make reasonable comments on the suggestion I had made in my post #63. I would like to build a bit on these points and then perhaps we may get somewhere (at least in terms of being clear in our own minds) what the india-pakistan issues add up to:

Stuka refers to the ``national interest`` of Pakistan. That I think is the million dollar question, and I would like to extend that to the ``national interest`` of India and of the Kashmiris themselves as well.

From the various responses above, the answer would be one or more of the following:
a. Land
b. Water (rivers flow into pakistan)
c. The rights of Kashmiris
d. Benefits to military (particularly pakistani)

In responding, I would first define ``national interest`` of India and Pakistan as follows: Maximizing the well-being of their respective citizens (current and future).

On a.: I would reject that right away: Land is a significant factor of production only in agrarian societies. The future clearly is for economies that are knowledge-based. The addition of held kashmir to pakistan would do essentially nothing to the per capita income of pakistan.

On b: While this has not been raised as a major reason within pakistan, there is an element of truth here. But only an element, as a look at the map easily tells us. Indus is already free of indian interference, and chenab and sutlej would remain vulnerable to indian interference (I say this based on a cursory check of the map) even if held kashmir became part of pakistan. And if there was indian interference, it would probably be such a life-and-death matter for pakistan that it could result in total war between the two nuclear-armed beggar nations. (If this sounds far-fetched, the world bank itself has predicted that india and pakistan may go to war in the 21st century on this one issue as fresh water demand exceeds supply). A very serious problem, but getting held kashmir is not the solution.

On c: Agreed that this is in the interest of kasmiris. But then, every community has a similar right to greater control over their lives. But that isnt about to happen either in India or in Pakistan. Why then should other interests (e.g. the interest of pakistanis to a peaceful future) be sacrificed for one single community only. Only time will evolve both countries towards ceding more control over their lives to local communities living within their borders.

On d: No one would accept this argument as anything more than an absurdity. Ironically, this is conceptually the same argument as c (if one considers the military to be a community).

So, what then is Pakistan`s, or India`s, (or Kashmiri`s) national interest? The answer is simple: ask yourself what is your own personal interest (prosperity, brighter future for your children and their children and their children and so on)?

Multiply that answer by 1.5 billion, and that how important what you perceive as your personal interest is to the national interest of the current generation living in India, of pakistan, of Kashmiris. All other considerations become insignificant before this overriding national interest: peace, prosperity, for all. And there is no conflict of interest here between India, Pakistan, Kashmiris.

Long post, sorry.

#72 by arjun_m

++
BACKGROUND BRIEFING BY A SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL ON THE
PRESIDENT`S BILATERAL MEETINGS
++

Why don`t you get your laughs watching a sitcom like ``Dharma & Greg`` or ``Everybody loves Raymond`` instead. At least the cast would be better than the ``unnamed senior administration officials`` you are wasting your time on.

But as they say.. to each his own delusions. Ciao!

#78 by arjun_m

++
Umm...It was left to the ruler to decide and the hindu ruler decided in India`s favor...IF you have any dispute, it should be over hyderabad...we can hold a plebiscite there if you want..
++

Nope dude... The Indian Independence Act 1947 states that rulers of princely states will ascertain the wishes of their subjects before making the decision.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts