The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan

Re Manto

``If anyone has the popularity amongst the masses it is the Pakistan Peoples` Party. ``

One has to concede a certain point there. Whether we like it or not (and I have very little affinity for the latest incarnation of PPP), the fact is that PPP is the only All-Pakistan political party. As cheesy as it sounds, there is some truth to a bumper sticker I saw in Karachi some years ago which said ``PPP: Only Hope of Federation``. Zia, GIK, Nawaz and Gen Musharraf have all tried their hand at decimating the PPP thru tanks, turncoats and bribes and what not but the party somehow still manages to be around.

And no, the PML simply doesn`t compare because the PML is not exactly a party. It is the signboard adopted by any group of turncoats, ex-officers, and sons of former dictators who get together to pay homage to the military clique in power. Don`t get me wrong, I find a few PML (of whatever variety) types quite worthy in their respective areas (M P Bhandara and Ayesha Reza Qazilbash come to mind immediately). But the fact is that every military autocrat beginning with Ayub Khan has bought off a bunch of politicians/industrialist/upset feudals/former civil servants, called them into a conference, and given them the appellation of Muslim League.

It is very possible that the Muslim League died along with the Quaid-e-Azam.

Now tell me, how would a candidate for NA do under the PML(SA) banner? The `SA` standing for, of course, Sig Alph? May be one of you can do a nice Urdu de-abbreviation of SA, no? :):):)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

...pakis should elect romair as next PM...

imran khan is not a feudal, my aunt is an astronaut, and other romarian profundities ............

............. so once again we are back with the same old regurgitated nonsense about blaming it all on the pesky ``feudal`` gnats and turning a blind eye to the elephants in uniform and rhinos in black and green turbans that are running amok in the parlor!............subhanallah!........... the poor gardezis, legharis and mazaris continue to be blamed for all of pakistan`s ills even after their youngsters are now mostly employed by the pakistan army, the cda or citibank and their lands have been subdivided to the point where they don`t even produce enough rice to feed a family of straving bengalis ................of course they still win seats in the assemblies, but they win them on the basis of the old ``baradri`` system which is a little bit different from blatant feudalism............. and why shouldn`t they?............ do we want the elephants to rig elections against these gnats so that the rhinos can win?......... what is this - a big game conspiracy? .............. no wonder it stinks to high heaven...........

............. and imran khan is a beneficiary of the same old feudal system ............. he was rejected by the people of the city he lives in and had to rely on his feudal connections to win his single pathetic seat in parliament ............ and don`t tell me the burkis are not feudals.......... they might not have a lot of land left for chasing innocent village damsels in land cruisers, and half of them are generals or air-marshalls or ``industrialists``, but they still walk and quack like tribal chiefs from waziristan ...........and don`t tell me i don`t know what i am talking about - i have tea with imran khan`s aunt all the time, and his sister is ............ well, now our smart aleck airman will protest, ``oh, but they are tribals, and not feudals``............. what is the diference?......... we all know that there are no feudals in nwfp and baluchistan because nobody can get rich on a hundred acres of rocks and sand ............... okay, so it is the baradri system then that we are talking about, right?............ if that`s the case, then everyone in pakistan is guilty and the two biggest baradri systems are the army and the mullahs .............so why is nobody blaming them?.............why? because as a nation we all belong to the baradri of the ignorant, aka the ummah ................

............. with the silliness of ramadhan right around the corner, why can`t we see the obvious connection between our gods and our state of misery ............for the next month the faithful and the miserable, from feudal morocco to feudal indonesia, will be starving themselves as a penance instead of doing something to improve their social mobility .......... social mobility, indeed!

Faiza:
Do you -or anyone else- know how much is the direct involvement of the army in feudalism? How many of the feudals, especially the smaller ones, or their fathers or grandfathers are ex-army officers who were awarded murabbas or subsidised lands by the army? How many of them are related to the army establishment through marriages or business partnerships?
If such a nexus exists between the army and feudals, this would explain why the army dictators treat feudals with kid gloves.

correction #24: ``I was hoping, we would win around seven seats in urban Sind``

should read,

``I was hoping, we would win around seven seats in urban Punjab``

rozaiba #14: ``These youths have the capacity and desire to RUN THEMSELVES for parties like PTI, BUT lack the financial resources. Imran Khan as constantly complained on this (financial resources) being the main reason for PTI representatives not making any in roads.``

I know PTI quite well. Almost from the day it started. My family has been heavily involved in it. I cannot see it coming up, until the fedual stranglehold is broken. Even a guy as famous as Imran Khan, has difficulty winning seats. He couldn`t even win in the area where he built a charity hospital.

Even if one unites all the urban vote in Pakistan, it is still only barely half the seats of the feudals. If I remember correclty the only guy, in the PTI, who won in NWFP was from a land owning family. Even those in PTI who have financial resources cannot make inroads. They cannot even come close. I was hoping, we would win around seven seats in urban Sind and two in NWFP. With a hope to win big in Lahore. But nothing happened.

There are only a few ways for the system to evolve:

1) We wait for the demographics to change to a point where the urban vote is significantly higher than the rural vote, to the point where, even if a party wins a portion of the urban vote, it can become a powerhouse in the NA. That will take decades, if it ever happens.

2) We let things follow their natural course, with dreams of everything sorting it out in twenty years. How will they sort themselves out, is apparently something no one can answer. But everyone wants to dream. Do keep in mind that the countries that have established liberal western democracy, over the years, had first established the pre-requisites of democracy. Even India`s democracy, without fedualism, has gotten worse and not better since a few decades ago, since it lacks certain pre-requisites.

3) We accept the facts on the grounds objectively, rather than living in a dreamland of hopes that everything will fix itself if some screwed up system, dominated by feudals, is allowed to continue, without a major overhaul.

I would suggest 3. Since one should accept the facts, rather than building castles on false hopes. The current politically power groups in Pakistan are the feudals, maulvis and army. Just because, someone dislikes all three, doesn`t mean that they are united. That is a state of denail. Maulvis and feudals are not united. They do not like each other. In fact, feduals are very fearful of the maulvis. Mullahs and Army were united. And mullahs and feudals, though not united, have never gone after each other either.

This is the starting point that should be used to decide what is needed. Army rule is not the solution in the long run. But neither is feudal and mullah rule. So what is the solution? And I think it is obvious, that the feudals would never support the current democratic system, if they thought it would get rid of them in 20 years. I spent the past five or so years naively hoping that PTI would win someday. Now I am not quite sure.

Someone has to forcefully break the back of the feudals. But there is no one to do it. And if their back is not broken, then we will continue in the merry go round of feudals and army rule, with the maulvis getting stronger by the day.

If you ask me, what Pakistan really needs is a Lee Kuan Yu, i.e. a good civilian dictator. But how will someone like that ever get into power.

faizahussain #18: ``TO those of you who are content on my ignorance about Pakistan/urdu lit, let me state that I grew up here but still have tried very hard to learn/get accustomed to urdu lit. Romaire, you didnt put Iqbal`s name after the couplet so i wasn`t aware of it. i can quote milton. swift, hardy, kafka, rumi...... and you probably won`t know whether its from me or one of these intellectuals of the past. yes they do not have an urdu program at univ in houston, but we do believe in giving credit where it is due i.e including hte name of the source from which quote/idea was taken. ``

It was a joke. Hence the :-), at the end. Don`t take it seriously. I am sure you can quote a lot more of milton and swift and kafka. I can barely quote Iqbal. Much less understand him.

The couplet I quoted is one of the most famous ones. It is one of those couplets that is so famous that it does not require a name. Kind of like saying, ``To be or not to be.`` Or, ``Either you are with us or against us.`` Or ``Lab pay aati hai duwa ban kay tamanna meri.``

Manotlives #13: A bit of advice. First try to understand something, before opening your mouth. If you cannot understand it than debate it to get a clearer idea of what someone is trying to say. That will keep you from getting into your up and down cycle of relations with people.

Now over to your comments:

``You will not accept given your military bias, but it is true.``

Could you kindly explain, why I would have a military bias. Am I in the military? Am I on its payroll? Do I get anything from it? Or is it just that anyone who does not agree with you on something is biased.

``Kindly read S. Akbar Zaidi`s `Issues in Pakistan`s Economy`... and will realize that it is the Military which has kept the feudal status quo.``

I don`t need to read him. I am saying somewhat similar myself. In my previous reply, I stated: ``The Army, for some strange reasons, has never gone after the feudals. Even though, the Army is completely from non-feudal areas (Karachi, Potohor and Soth-Eastern NWFP). But, Ayub and Zia`s families actually joined the feudal parties and/or households``. Though I differ on one point. I don`t think the military has kept them in power. It just hasn`t made an attempt to remove them. I think the feudals are powerful enough to stay in power themselves.

``Remember even Feudal Bhutto`s PPP Government was committed to land reforms which it did carry out, whereas it is Musharraf/Military backed Jamali Government which has announced no land reforms policy.``

This proves my point. Feudal govts. will never carry out land reforms. Bhutto and Jamali are both feudals, and both lead feudal govts. By the way, had Bhutto`s govt. carried out real land reform, Pakistan would not be where it is today. What about BB`s govt. and NS
s govt. and Junejo`s govt. Why didn`t they carry out any land reform? Both Army and feudal govts. haven`t done much on land reform. Which is my point.

``Similarly the Mullah has no popularity amongst the masses... this shows your isolation from reality. The Mullah won less 1.5 Million of the Popular vote ``

One should not live in a state of denial. Maulvis are running two provinces. And are now the third biggest party in politics. MMA received 11.1% of the total votes, and won 53 seats in the National Assembly. Any party that sweeps even one province has popularity amongst the masses. Who else voted for them?

``It was because PPP and PML(N) were not allowed to campaign that their voter didn`t come out.``

This would make sense if the maulvis had won in Sind and Punjab. But not in NWFP and Baluchistan. PPP never wins big in NWFP. It had one family leader there, and that was Sherpaos. And he switched sides and broke away from PPP and joined Musharraf. PPP doesn`t win in Baluchistan either. PML wins in NWFP. However, nearly the powerful PML members of NWFP, i.e. Gohar Ayub etc. switched sides and were in PML(Q), supported by the govt. The other party which wins in NWFP is ANP. And it was pro-Musharraf as well. PPP(Sherpao) was part of the govt. coalition.

NWFP is thus always a fight between ANP and PML(Q). With PPP, every now and then, getting some seats. And both PML(Q) and ANP were pro-govt. So NWFP was the province in which the govt. forces were the strongest. The mullahs defeated two pro-govt parties there, and a faction of the PPP, which was pro-govt also.

In Baluchistan, PPP and PML(N,Q, etc.) have traditionally not been powerful either. Baluchistan is run by ethnic Baluchi parties or tribal parties or a combination of both. So the PPP and PML vote there, also wasn`t suppressed. There wasn`t much to begin with.

Even in the 1970 elections (which PPP swept in West Pakistan) PPP won prmiarily in Sind and Punjab (it only outright won Punjab). In NWFP and Baluchistan, it was a coalition of National Awami Party and JUI (run by Mufti Mahmood), that ran the provinces.

``The PPP emerged as the single largest party in West Pakistan with majorities in Sindh and the Punjab; and the National Awami Party together with their political ally, Jamiat-ul Ulema-i-Islam, JUI, (of Maulana Mufti Mahmood got clear majorities in Baluchistan and the North West Frontier Province.`` (http://ghazali.net/book1/body_chapter_5.htm)

Maybe the Afghan refugees were voting for JUI, back then also. Maybe they were there in 1970, as well. I am amazed that you don`t think maulvi parties have no vote base in these two provinces. They have had it for decades. Now they are united in one group, and have swept away even the pro-govt. parties. Do keep in mind that Musharraf put JUI and JI leaders under house arrest. They weren`t the best of friends. Yet they still won.

The third area where the maulvis did well is Karachi. They used to own Karachi, until MQM arrived. And MQM was pro-govt. in this election also. Yet they have made a dent into the MQM vote base in Karachi.

So the maulvis won in areas, where the parties in power were very pro-govt (other than Baluchistan, where they were neutral). How many seats does PPP get nowdays, in Karachi, NWFP and Baluchistan? Do some research and you will find out the answer is very little. It wins Lyari in urban Karachi, and a few in NWFP.

``Still PPP had the largest vote bank with 3.3 Million votes, and the government backed PML aka Winners club had the second largest.``

This is true. I never denied this. No one is arguing with the fact that PPP and PML have the largest vote bank. But who has the third largest vote bank. And how much of the PPP and PML votebank is from feudal areas and how much of it is from urban areas. PPP and PML dominate feudal areas. And feudal seats are the highest in the NA. So they will always have the highest votebank. This is the whole problem.

But, in urban areas, these two parties are only powerful in Punjab. In urban NWFP, the maulvis got the PML(Q) vote and the ANP vote. In Baluchistan, PPP and PML were never powerful. In urban Sindh, they were never powerful. It is the MQM and maulvis.

Hence my point, that the biggest parties, get in, to a great extent, due to feudal vote. They have slowly been swept out of all urban areas, except Punjab. And hopefully will be swept out of Punjab someday also.

``So if you think Mullah has the capability or the inclination to remove the feudals ... then you are sadly mistaken.``

I am not sure if the mullah can remove the feudal completely. I doubt it. But the mullah is the only one that has succesfully removed any feudal. All other non-feudal parties, like MQM, PTI, etc. have been unable to even make a dent in the feudal areas. ANP is an ethnic party, but it also has a big landed element.

Once again, this is my whole point. I don`t think in Pakistan`s screwed up democratic system, anyone can remove the feudal.

``If anyone has the popularity amongst the masses it is the Pakistan Peoples` Party.``

It depends on your defintion of masses. If you are talking about the feudal masses, then definitely yes. Which is what I stated. However, I would not call that popularity. I would call that slavery. In term of urban masses, no single party has any popularity. It is all spread out, as I explained earlier. With PPP, only having popularity in Punjab urban areas. And in the election before this one, it was completely swept even in urban Punjab by PML. It was reduced to a Sindhi feudal party. In this election, it made a comeback in Punjab, primarily because PML vote was split in pieces.

``The democratic system is the only system that delivered Europe from Feudalism.``

Are you sure about this? Have you studied European history? Do you know how long Feudalism stayed around in Europe? Do you know how long it took Europe to get to its present liberal Democracy? And how many countries were born and died, during the process? It is actually the end of feudalism that led to the current liberal Western democracy. Not vice-versa.

This is the Catch-22 I was describing. If you have feudalism, you can`t have democracy. But to get rid of feudalism, you need non-feudals running your democracy. How exactly will the feudals, who run Pakistani democracy, get rid of feudalism? It is what gives them their strength. Do you think they participate in it so much, due to their stupidity? Do you think every feudal is a politician because he/she wants to serve Pakisatn? Or is it because they know that Pakistan`s current screwed up democratic system is their best hope for survival.

Real Western liberal democratic system will definitely get rid of feudalism. I hope Pakistan can reach that stage. But the feudals in Pakistan will never allow that to evolve, as long as the status quo democratic system of Pakistan continues. So the way to get there is to not rely on the current screwed up democratic system of Pakistan, which PPP and PML will never change.

``Feudalism can be defeated by a strong and efficient judicial system coupled with complete and unfettered democracy``

Yes. Exactly. But who is going to implement that. Obviously, this will not happen as long as the feudals run democracy. Unfettered democracy is not going to appear from thin air. Is it? If you think the feudals are involved in politics to remove the system that feeds them, I am afraid you are highly mistaken. They are in it to ensure the system never evolves. They are the obstacle, not the solution. The solution lies in strong progressive urban political parties. Not in dynastic, extremely backwards, feudals. They are far more conservative in their lands than even the maulvis. They just say, ``Secularism,`` again and again, to please people like yourself. Waderas can never be progressive or liberal.

``.. not the Army or the Mullahs. ``

The army can remove the feudals. But it apparently has no interest. Which is unfortunate. The mullahs have removed the feudals, in some areas. Can you name one other group that has removed the feudals anywhere in Pakistan, other than the mullahs. MQM. No. PTI. No. Army. No. Beaurecracy. No. Judiciary. No. That pretty much is the total of all the non-feudal power groups in Pakistan.

This is not to suggest that maulvis are a good option. I stated in my previous reply, that they have other issues. But when one describes something on the ground, one has to do it objectively. And not live in a dreamland, where everything happens the way one wants it to. There are three power groups in Pakistani politics now. And all three are negative in the long run. Feudals. Maulvis. and Army.

In terms of influence:

PPP is a feudal Sindhi party. With some influence in Feudal Punjab and urban Punjab. That is it.

PML, if you combine all their vote, dominates Feudal and urban Punjabi party. With quite a bit of influence in NWFP.

Mullahs: own NWFP now, and part of Baluchistan. With some influence in Karachi. And building up some in urban Punjab.

PTI: is an urban Punjab party (with only one seat though). With some influence in NWFP.

ANP is an NWFP party, with no influence anywhere else.

I look at the urban vote to get an ideal of the, ``masses.`` Since that is the areas, where people can vote without being fearful of the feudal. And in urban areas, no party dominates. Of course, in feudal areas, PPP and PML dominate, because all the feudals are in these two parties. Hence they dominate Pakistan. You are too infatuated with their repititive use of the word, ``Secularism.`` They do that specifically to fool people. Go to their lands sometimes, and you will discover that they treat women and others, much worse than even the mullahs.

Hello
TO those of you who are content on my ignorance about Pakistan/urdu lit, let me state that I grew up here but still have tried very hard to learn/get accustomed to urdu lit. Romaire, you didnt put Iqbal`s name after the couplet so i wasn`t aware of it. i can quote milton. swift, hardy, kafka, rumi...... and you probably won`t know whether its from me or one of these intellectuals of the past. yes they do not have an urdu program at univ in houston, but we do believe in giving credit where it is due i.e including hte name of the source from which quote/idea was taken.

Ratinal faith
You won`t understand, Faiza. I am writing about Pakistan. No one expects you to know anything about the place. You have been educated there.
Well being the learned in matters of Pakistan, why don`t you explain to me what you were talking about. I know Mohajirs are the ones who migrated to Paksitna from India and I myself am the progeny of such a family. You may not expect me to know about pakistan, but you can surely help me learn about pakistan by sharing with me your great wisdom.

Few years back I was duped into donating little money to a ``cancer research institute``. They sent me some pamphlets. I became suspicious when I saw not a single word anout cigarettes. It was all about pollution and preservatives in food. Later I found out that it is a tobacco companies gimmick to set up such institutes and divert public attention away from their own vested interests. Why this story here?

Every interest group wants to protect their interests and one of the mean to divert atttention is to keep pointing finger away from them. Mullahs blame decadence and US for the problems of Pakistan, military points finger at poor economy and lack of education and so on. The supporters of various groups take similar stands here at chowk by protecting their favorite sacred cows.

Certain people in military and urbanites make land reform as major issue because it does not effect them. The support for land reform is highest among mohajirs who happen to be urbanites in Pakistan. Once they do not own land, and additionally if they are pleased with the current military set up, they like to point finger at others. What land reforms in Balochistan where nothing grows. That is half of Pakistan`s area. What about mountaneous NWFP and arid Potowar and sandy Tharparkar and Mirpurkhas in Sindh? Is life better for those people who are mostly non-mohajirs with land or land reform of mountains and desert meaning nothing.

If you ask feudals, they can suggest several major reforms in other sectors than taking away their land. In southern Panjab, pirs are much bigger evils than landlords. Everybody keeps telling about raping women by landlords when pirs rape much more in the name of religion. The rural areas and their cultures are the preserving their culture. If left to non-rural, non-feudal panjabi urbanite, Panjabi language would have been extinct by now. Feudal is the main reason for stopping Islamic fundamentalism in Panjab and Sindh, otherwise with Zia, ISI and even Mutt before 9/11, Talibanization was much more backed by land reformers, mullahs, urbanites etc.

So Karachites and MQM want land reforms in Sindh and Panjab. I guess feudals can ask Karachites to stop voting for communal MQM and Pathans can ask imposition of Sharia and Talibanization and Balochis can ask everybody to f*** off. Why can`t we have free and fair elections and let the representatives of people to handle all sorts of reforms.

Faiza,

I was looking forward to an article like this, it was only last week some one chowk thrashed the faujis. Ofcourse mushy has thrashed the democrats.
Istead of repeating yet onece again that feudals are the problem why cont you look into the ideological realm from which an idea like land reforms can emerge.
Pakistan is an islamic country, the book is supreme, there is sheria court waiting to get rid of riba, the interest rates. Can the book support land reform. My understanding is zakkat is per the book, and that is all the distributional injunctions from the book. So Faiza, tell the chowk people from where this idea is going to come.

Well how about marzist ideas. Posting from a place in kerala, where my local elected rep to the state assembly is a muslim marxist, well faiza can i suggest to him to go to pakistan. Will you organise a speaking assignment for him.
This is yet another pathetic article with wated time and space and money

#6 Romair

``The Army, for some strange reasons, has never gone after the feudals.``

Allow me to try to expalin why this has been so.

As the most powerful institution in the country, the Army has gone after the feudals (and non-feudals) that it dislikes-or disliked-for one reason or the other. It hanged one feudel (who till date is probably the most publicly popular feudal in Pakistan) with impunity and his feudal daughter has spent most of her time in exile for the better part of the last 3 decades. Another PM who got out of favor with army was put in jail before being exiled.

So the question arises, why is it that an institution that can hang ZAB, and exile NS, cannot (or does not) implement land reforms? Especially when it has had ample time to do that.

The answer in my opinion is: The Army dictators itch for ``legitimacy`` a few years into their rule. This so-called legitimacy comes when they hire feudals who in turn move (or force) people in order to vote for dictators` referendums and bring people in 1000s of confiscated lorries to Minar-e-Pakistan for a show of strength in favor of Army Generals.

Generals also get to have more than 100% votes cast in their favor in some constituencies because of these over zealous feudal friends of theirs. Hence generals manage to show to the world that they have been democratically elected by the people for next 5 years. In return for their favor, the feudals are gifted ministries, and cars with Pakistan flags. And they get to keep their 100s of acres of land too :-)

Now think, if land reforms were instituted and the feudals were to be done away with, who would legitimise the referendums of dictators? Who would move hundreds and thousands of people to come to the Generals` jalsas and who would spend hours and hours to fill the ballot boxes with fake votes?

The argument that feudals are interested in status quo is true for the Army too. Becuase if the Generals do away with status quo and somehow make the feudals disappear, how are they going to win referendums the next time they grab power and where will the facade of getting legitimacy through referendums/elections come from? Ordinary people sure as hell are not going to fill up the ballot boxes with jaali votes.

Army needs feudals to do the dirty job and feudals need army so that they can ride into the assemblies in Land Cruisers & Pajeros wearing white ``kulf-wali`` shalwar kameez. They both need each other for one reason or the other. This is the ``strange`` reason why army has never gone after the feudals. They both need each other in order to keep their hold on power and enjoy the perks.

But if a feudal becomes or tries to become disobedient his fate will be like Bhutto or Junejo. Again the reason would not have anything to do with corruption but everything to do with, as Noam Chomsky puts it, ``committing the crime of disobedience.``

The day Jamali tries to assert any type of independence that affects the power and perks of Generals (which I seriously doubt Jamali ever will- but miracles do happen :-)) you can be sure to see a hastily called press conference at PTV where Musharraf will be declaring how Jamali government had to be given a kick in the rear because it is so corrupt.

#14 Rozaiba

Very good analysis.

Faiza,

The most important factor that induces mobility in society is education, and no place can probably demonstrate that more than india. From a village in kerala, where we walked for an hour to go to the primary school, studied iwith kerocene lamp, I have said many times before is my friend, who is one of the three senior vice presidents runnig the world largest refinary ( no it is not aramco) Reliance refinary at Jamnagar, with 10 billion dollar investment.

No Faiza, you cannot mention education as the supreme, it is another education, not from the book, that is haram in pakistan. There are schools in pakistan built with foreign funding, but the faujis will not appoint teavhers, so that the romair and tahmeds can give the excuse that jihadis are the products of the failure of schools.

Education is the only point where one can interfere and influence the evolution of a society. That is already cornered by the jihadists, and you cannot say that. Faiza, may be it is time to accept the reality, in a islamic country what elase can the children study.

Agreed!

For the Askari World view to work... they need a leader in the mould of Kemal Ataturk ... and all Pakistan Army has are midgets.