The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan

PM#125:

1. The status quo of NWFP had to be broken. As well as the status quo of Baluchistan. I certainly would have prefered someone else to break it, than MMA. But someone had to do it. Hopefully the status quo in rural Sind will be the next to go. And hopefully that will force the PPP and PML to internally reform themselves, with people like Aitezaz Ahsan replacing Amin Fahims and Bhuttos.

The literacy rate for women in Baluchistan for women is 3.4%. Probably the lowest in the world. Who the hell cares if the Baluchi tribals were a fort of Secularism. Rural Sind is one of the most backward places in the world, as well. So who the hell cares if the ruling PPP there is the fort of Secularism. What are they doing for the people? And how much worse could MMA be? I certainly don`t support it. But the feudals are equally bad or worse.

Now, hopefully, the MMA, being non-feudal will be easier to replace than the PML and ANP, which are the status quo powers of NWFP. And Baluchi tribals, which are the status-quo powers of Baluchistan. If the MMA ends up surprising us, and doing well, then they will be voted in again. Otherwise they will be out.

PPP is not the status-quo power in NWFP nor in Baluchistan. So, it wasn`t affected in either place in the last election. If one goes by votes, the real people`s party in Pakistan is a united PML. Its` combined vote is quite a bit larger than the PPP, in Pakistan. If it had remained one party in the last election, it would have swept Punjab again. The combined vote of PML is around 40% of the total vote. While that of the PPP was around 29%. That of MMA is around 11%. And PML wins in NWFP, Punjab, a little in feudal and urban Sind. While PPP only wins in rural Sind and Punjab (if PML is split).

PPP actually greatly benefited from the split PML vote in Punjab. Otherwise, in the previous elections, PPP had won nothing in Punjab. I doubt PPP can beat a combined PML in Punjab.

I agree more with PPP policies (not leaders, but policies) than PML`s, but the facts should be presented as they are. Not through an emotional bias towards any party. The party I support, PTI, won only one seat. Interestingly, the two parties in NWFP who lost to MMA, i.e. ANP and PML(Q) accepted their defeats.

2. I have found a reference for you regarding the feudals in the Assembly. I could not locate the BBC reference, but this should suffice. The BBC one goes into the party leadership itself, and shows how feudal dominated these parties are internally, also: http://www.saeedshafqat.com/publications/publications_2000/democracy_in_pakistan_2000_5.html

Following are the results in elections from 85 to 97:

Election year: 1985 1988 1990 1993 1997

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Landlords and Tribal Leaders 157 156 106 129 126
Businessmen/Industrialists 54 20 38 37 39
Urban Professionals 18 9 46 26 32
Religious Leaders 6 15 11 8 3
Retired Military Officers - 7 3 5 2
Others 3 - 3 3 2

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Total 207 207 207 207

As you can see, feudals rule in the National Assembly. There are % is around 60-75%, which is what I stated. It only fell down in 1990. And has gone back up again. In the last election, maulvis made a big dent into it. Hopefully, in the next one, someone will make a dent into the maulvis seats.

3. Following the write up on Amin Fahim, the current head of PPP, by Cowasjee:

``The temporary leader of Zardari`s party has also been the subject of comment via e-mail from another citizen of Pakistan who also does not wish to reveal his identity as what he relates is hearsay. However, having had confirmation of the hearsay from various members of the Sindhi fraternity who say the practice is common and widespread, the message is worth a quote, as if it is a fact, it is a dread warning to us all of the mindset of the leadership of what is supposed to be the most `progressive` party of the country.

``I have heard that Mr Amin Faheem`s four sisters are married to the Quran - the custom that waderas have in Sindh by which they refuse to marry off their women in order to keep family wealth intact. If true, it is appalling. It indicates the sick mindset typical of such waderas. How can we expect a man like this to be able to make progressive policies for the poor womenfolk of our country who desperately need uplifting? People need to know this. It is very disheartening to see the parade of illiterate bigots on our television channels, day and night, vying for slots in the government, each for his own agenda.`` (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20021117.htm)

Manto,

I just re-read #22, and I find nothing but a grudging (at best) advocacy for the MMA in it. For most of the post, Romair has produced factual information (as far as i know.) Summarizing, the MMA did well in those areas where the PPP as not a major player anyway. Perhaps you could counter that claim with some figures of your own?

The only place I disagree (slightly) with him is in the contention that the MMA ate into only MQM`s votebank in Karachi. There are at least a couple of constiuencies, including my own, where the PPP/PML would always give the MQM a run for their money. MMA taook over this time.

Yes, I think we can blame pre-election rigging for the MMA`s surprising show in some tradtionally PML/PPP constituencies, but those can be counted on one`s fingertips. In the NWFP at least, when I visited last summer, I found the sentiment of the local nais, rickshaw drivers and chowkidars to have swung to the religious right. A rickshaw driver I befriended, explained that, having voted PPP and PML earlier, he decided that MMA might be worth a try this time. I happen to think many common folks up there felt, and voted, similarly. Whether the MMA will deliver them from the growing poverty and unemployment is another matter, of course.

And Iwonder why you associate the honor-killing culture with the Islamist parties. Last time I checked, Saima Anwar`s father didn`t belong to the MMA, and the majority of the MNA`s who voted against denouncing hte tradition in Parliament were NOT, again from Islamist parties. And I have yet to hear advocacy for this inhuman practice from any religious qaurters anyway.

While I agree with you and hamidm`s mother (GBHS) that the PPP is still the party of the masses (though no-where nearly as completly as in was in the 70`s and 80s), I think that really means very little. It would mean something if most of these simple folks could explain why they vote PPP, apart from the promise (yeah, right!) of roti, kapra aur makaan. Ask them how PPP`s manifesto is different from the PML`s and again, I suspect you`ll see, once again, a pattern of voting sentiment that is essentially based on icon-worship, not any ideological or practical considerations.

Make no mistake, your own support of the PPP is based purely on pragmatic grounds (their being the only force capable of conceivably taking on the army)-- not on ideological ones. In this respect, you are only as good or as bad as Romair, who hopes that the MMA will be the one to break the juggernaut he believes Pakistan is held in--the feudals. (Or the feudal-army nexus, which he does admit to.)

Of course, hopefully there will be enough of rightminded folks like yourself, Aitzaz Hassan and Javed Jabbar (hopefully he`ll rejoin once he hears you`re in:) ) who will be able to effect some change in the PPP where it really matters. Maybe a change of dynastic (feudal?) leadership would be a good place to start?

Otherwise, it wouldn`t mean Jack that the PPP is the partywith the most grassroots support.

rgds,
(and crossed fingers)
PM.

P.S. Please email me details of the Beach Luxury event. I will be back and would love a ticket too. `Postmatser`

fuzair,

are you serious ?..............``But still, the army is, to echo Romair, the most egalitarian institution in Pakistan. ``............. and how is it different from wapda, pwd, lda, railways and the guild of professional women in heera mandi ?............. do you mean to say that all the sdo`s drafted into the irrigation department are the offspring of the feudals and nautch girls?....... and what about all the section officers and entry level civil servants in the varioius ministries ?..............are they all son`s of nawabzadas and khanzadas?

.............. talking about how honest the havaldars, captains and majors are is really quite silly.......... they are honest because they don`t have any access to anything worth stealing - they are young crooks in training............ the fact of the matter is that the army is like the mafia - the generals are the dons, and the captains are the tough guys who carry out orders and hope to make it big as crooks one day .............. simple as that ..............it is all a matter of opportunity .......... a major who becomes the quarter master starts off by stealing a few kilos of ata and sugar and half a dozen blankets, and by the time he becomes the quarter master general he is selling off shiploads of goodies ......... and if he becomes the director general of defense purchase he can easily syphon off a few million to swiss bank accounts ............. a captain who is put in charge of the motor pool starts off by stealing a few gallons of petrol which trains him for his future job as the minister of railways with access to millions of gallons of diesel ............. the petty larceny that even the junior officers in services like asc, eme and engineers carry on as a matter of routine is shameful .............road rollers are routinely eaten by white ants and cement meant for building laterines ends up in the co`s house!............and we could go on about station commanders who pillage the messes, commanding officers of the scouts in parachinar who sell off trees, and akrf (ao khao ration free) officers who would sell kashmir back to the pundits if given half a chance .............. so let`s not pretend to be holier than thou .......... i still have a pair of drill boots i shouldn`t have .........

............. but this is all petty stuff.......... the truth is that the army owns and runs the whole country like its fiefdom, and that`s what we should be talking about instead of how much water the gujjar colonel in charge of the military farms puts into the milk ....................

fuzair #106: ``Hey, I resent that remark! I don`t demonize the military!``
PM #109: ``it doesn`t follow from the above that eveyone on chowk-- or even every one wealthy on chowk-- engages in said demonization.``

Both of you are correct. Every rich guy doesn`t demonize the military. I was just trying to make a point, that most of the demonization does come from rich guys. Primarily because, their families are no longer assocaited with the military. The military now consists of financially lower class Pakistanis, who form 90-95% of it, as NCOs/JCOs/airmen etc. And about 5-9% lower middle to middle class folks who form the officer class of my generation. And about 1-4% upper middle class, who are either kids of army officers, or did not have enough money to go abroad to study, or did not have enough grades to get into good college. This is why the farmer and juicewallah and the taxi driver and the shopkeeper will generally be ok with the military, since his kids are probably in it. While the expatriate will not, because his relatives will rarely join it, nor marry into it, any longer.

``However, you are quilty of a broad-brush approach yourself when you paint all generals with the same brush.``

Yes. You are correct again. However, do keep in mind that I am trying my best to educate the bigoted and prejudiced lot about something they have strong opinions, and very little knowledge, i.e. military. It`s like convincing a Jamaatia that everyone in the USA isn`t the Great Satan. If I were to start saying that a lot of Generals are good guys also, then, people would completely tune me out.

There are no doubt competent Generals also. Even Ayaz Amir agrees. But, on the whole, the ratio of competence in the Pakistan military is inversely proportional to the rank.

``even getting a second star doesn`t do that much for you wealth-wise.``

I would say that during civilian govts. you are secure after the second star. If not plots, you will definitely get civilian postings, ambassadorships etc. And a nice house downtown. During Martial Laws, you are secure after the first star. And I must say that I have seen, up close, some very ridiculous appts. being made, where Brigadiers were sent to places they knew little of. I must also say that the civil services folks must be literally living it up. Knew a Brig. who went to equivalent post in Wapda. The guy`s lifestyle completely changed. In the Army, he had one staff car, and lived in the boondocks. In Wapda, he had an Army of cars, lived in the best part of Lahore, and all the big businessmen called on him. Civil servants really know how to make it big, and keep a low profile.

``BTW, I think you are seriously underestimating the number of 2-stars and highers in the Pakistani Armed Forces.``

I maybe. I just got my figures from Ayaz Amir. My figures on PAF are accurate upto nine or ten years ago.

``The Army is as close to a meritocracy as you are likely to find in Pakistan. Whether you like it or not, the Army does offer a great deal of upward social mobility.``

This is true. I think the military and the civil services are really the only way for a financially lower class person to make it to the top. The civil services is extremely comptetive, since the rich guys want to join it, still. So the son of a hawaldar or farmer cannot compete with a kid who returns from Oxford. But he can make it into the military.

There is no way for him to go abroad and become an expatriate, like the rest of us. He cannot get into multinationals. He doesn`t have enough money to start a business. He doesn`t have the sifarish to get into a local good job, even after a degree. So there are very few options left for him.

I had mentioned some of my coursemates. We keep in touch. Amongst my engineering course, in order of merit, I left. The guy below me is about to do a Ph.D. Three below him have a Ph.D from abroad and were in Kahuta, last I checked. I think all of them will leave the military soon, also, since the pays are very low for their qualifications. All of us were from middle to upper middle class families (which is common for PAF).

In the parallel flying course, the guy at the top was flying F-16s last I checked. He has a B.Sc degree. He is from a middle to upper middle class family. He will probably go onto become a General. The guy on top in the Army engineering course, got a Ph.D from USA and teaches at NUST. He will probably leave also, unless the Army gives him something big. He is far too brilliant to be confined to the Army, or even to Pakistan. He would make it big in Silicon Valley, if he wanted to.

Now to the guy, who will become a General. He topped PMA, parallel to me. He is the son of an enlisted Army guy. He was my roommate during a joint training course. His brother is an airman in the PAF. He got an NCOs (?) children scholarship to Military College Jehlum, and then went to JCB/PMA. He is completely from the urdu-medium shalwar qameez lower middle class crowd. He would be lost amongst all the Chowkies, with their American accents and lingo. He is not even from the motorcycle family. He is from the bicycle family. He is truly the, ``common`` Pakistani. A member of the masses of Pakistan, that every expatriate, with two car garages, seems so concerned about.

He is an infantry Lt. Col. right now, and topping all his courses. Should be going for Staff College soon. He will not leave the military, because he doesn`t have any technical qualifications. And because he is too poor to do much in the civil. We are all convinced he will be a General. Some of his coursemates are from Islamabad and Defence societies, but he has left them all behind.

If he had been a civilian, most of the yuppie crowd on Chowk, would not let him into their living rooms. He would have more chance of being their driver (a lot of enlisted guys do this job, when they leave the military), then their equivalent. This is about as socially mobile as anyone can be.

Once he becomes a General, he will probably take his plots, sell them and send his kids abroad, to work with hamidm :-). Then again, he may carry out a coup and be the next President. Though, in my opinion, the Ph.D. at NUST, would make a better CMLA and President :-) However, he is not in a fighting arm, so will not get the command positions.

So I really find it funny, when rich guys in America criticize people like the son of an enlisted man, i.e the common Pakistani, who through hard work, is making something of himself. They should, at least, wait till the guy becomes a General, and then criticize him. Or until he is rich enough to send his kids abroad also :-)

Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the MMA, and what it stands for, one thing it is not..is Feudal. The bulk of the MMA candidates who won ..did not do so on Tribal or Feudal or a financial basis. The only group which campaigned on an ``anti honour killing,`` anti exchange`` marraiges and ``anti blood feud`` platform was the MMA. The PPP may have represented an anti feudal group at one time, but through the hard work of it`s own leadership it is distinctly feudal now...

Lastly, do these Omair swipes have anything to do with feudalism? It seems people associate Omair with a reprsentative of the Amred forces of Pakistan? He is speaking from his own individaul perspective, that maybe flawed..but that doesn`t make personal (and rude) attacks anymore enlightening.

Re: Sac,

The Army is as close to a meritocracy as you are likely to find in Pakistan. Whether you like it or not, the Army does offer a great deal of upward social mobility. Some Army Chiefs (Mohammed Musa, Tikka Khan) have been rankers, Ayub was the son of a retired Rissaldar (Hodson`s Horse?), and Zia was the son of an ungazetted Civilian Employee in GHQ India. There have been many generals (e.g., Lt. Gen. Majeed Malik, that great PML stalwart) who were rankers. I could probably name many more if I cudgel my brain a bit. By contrast, the Indian Army is much less egalitarian and much snootier than ours: they haven`t had nearly the number of ranker officers that we have had. (BTW, as I`m sure you know, ``ranker`` is an insult in the Pakistan Army, so we aren`t too egalitarian!)

But still, the army is, to echo Romair, the most egalitarian institution in Pakistan. Unfortunately, that is also a part of its problem. It is too egalitarian. There are far too many officers who are the sons of JCOs/NCOs and far too likely to be the ``Jo Hukm`` types who will do as they are told. It is very unlikely for one of them to resign his commission on a matter of principle (as did Gen. Sher Ali or Gen. Yaqub Khan--although in Sher Ali`s case, it wasn`t much of one). The Attock attempted coup, such as it was, was to be carried out mainly by English-medium, whisky-drinking types who were disgusted by what had happened to the Army and with Bhutto. I don`t see too many of the current officers, far too Naukari Baaz, being concerned that the honour of the army had been smirched.

Aah well, all countries get the army they deserve.

re manto

``The only party that has the potential to deliver us from the feudal and Mullah threat now is the PPP ...`` No kidding. As bad as so many of its leaders are, ther are some exceptionally sophisticated people like (as himidm points out) Ch. Aitezaz Ahsan and Sherbano `Sherry` Rehman. I`ll add that the only other party, on a smaller and more contained level, that can play the same role is the MQM-again a lot of bad apples but a few good ones.

And I think you`ll be a good and corrective asset to the PPP (the real one not the so called Patriots or whatever they`re calling themselves now)

stuka:
I think that Tehelka suffered because it was not only brave but also reckless. It is one thing for a journal to expose a scandal, it`s quite another to set up a sting operation. That was brave and it got them a tremendous boost in terms of clicks and exposure. But it seems that, in their enthusiasm to prove their allegations, they went overboard and edited/doctored the taped evidence. The govt. latched on to this zeal on their part to set up an enquiry against them, the result was that they lost out in the end. But it was still a great scoop. They not only proved that Indian politicians and senior army officers were open to bribery, they were also shown to be thoroughly incompetent as they were fooled by non-existent weapons on sale by a non-existent company set up by a two-bit Internet site.

sac: Aren`t you from a military background as well?

Ahmadzai: Just for the record, the generals who were taped during Tehelka were courtmartialled to a man. One was acquitted (he simply boasted on tape and did not actually do anything) though with a severe reprimand, and the others were convicted.
The reason Tehelka was made to disappear was not because the Army was its target but because politicians were involved as well. It was the BJP that screwed Ttehelka, not the Indian Army. Corruption at the service level in India is peanuts. Iit is the civil bureaucrats and politicians who make money.

re hamidm2 #115:

Strange. I remember my grandomother saying the same thing to her chauffer.

All this bullshit about the army being a meritocracy and giving an opportunity to the lower and middle classes is at odds with its anti-PPP stance. An employment agency for the sons of NCos and JCOs does not qualify it to pass as an egalitarian institution. It creates a docile corps of yes-men who can be counted upon to carry out the next coup when the current Mard-i-momin beckons.

re tahmed321:

He doesn`t need to go to the loo. His dumps are all over Chowk.

re Mantolives:

Good luck. For all your zaniness at least you are doing something instead of just talking about it.

later
-sac

manto,

............. so we are joining the people`s party ?............ good for you!........ you will have some good company - aitezaz ahsan and others like him are not fools ...........regardless of what the goons in khaki, and their amen corner of romairs, would have us believe, it is the only ``real`` political party in pakistan with grass roots support in both the rural and urban areas ........... musharraf and his mullah cronies have tried to kill it but it is still very much there ..........PML-N also has a chance of making a comeback as a viable political party (if i am not mistaken, romair`s hero ayaz amir ran on its ticket last time and lost) ......... imran khan is a political neophyte who will either become another nawabzada nasrullah or disappear from the scene...............you are right, the ppp is the only party that can deliver pakistan from the horrible clutches of the mullahs and their fauji puppeteers ...........

.............. years ago, my mother (god bless her soul), in a fit of anger at the insolent butcher, said, `` yeh people`s party nay logon ka damag kharab kar diya hai - har mochi, nai, doodh-waley aur kasai ko zaban lag gaye hai``................... that, inspite of all its short comings and ``feudal`` roots, is why the ppp still resonates with the people ...............

Amazingly for once sac actually makes sense.

And I love it how Romair loves to compare himself to Ayaz Amir...

PM,

I suggest you read #22 again... it is the same old stubbornness from Romair... I have never seen a half-wit like him. He doesn`t have a clue about anything... yet he comments like he is einestein ki aulaad, and loves to compartmentalize others in `secularatics` and `religionists`...

The MMA point again needs to emphasized... every one and their mother in law knows that the votes MMA got are disproportionately low compared to the seats they won. Yet Romair is ready to give them Pakistan sitting in his cosy home in the very secular liberal west, so that they could dethrone the feudal? For hundreds of years these Mullahs have `suce`d the feudal `zob` ... pardon my french... but the Mullah is never going to dethrone the feudal... these two classes eat off of each other.... the Mullah especially the MMA variety gives the Feudal the religious impetus to continue?

Tell me has the honor killing vanished from Pakistan? or NWFP? It is feudal and tribal right? then why not? because the mullah doesn`t give two shi-ts about Pakistan. The only party that has the potential to deliver us from the feudal and Mullah threat now is the PPP ... no matter how feudal infested it is...

Romair, the air marshal, claims that PPP has the support of the feudal masses... last time I checked the down trodden and the sabzi wallahs, kooray wallahs, and labor class and the minorities, ... they were not defined as the `feudal` masses.

-YLH

PM,

I suggest you read #22 again... it is the same old stubbornness from Romair... I have never seen a half-wit like him. He doesn`t have a clue about anything... yet he comments like he is einestein ki aulaad, and loves to compartmentalize others in `secularatics` and `religionists`...

The MMA point again needs to emphasized... every one and their mother in law knows that the votes MMA got are disproportionately low compared to the seats they won. Yet Romair is ready to give them Pakistan sitting in his cosy home in the very secular liberal west, so that they could dethrone the feudal? For hundreds of years these Mullahs have `suce`d the feudal `zob` ... pardon my french... but the Mullah is never going to dethrone the feudal... these two classes eat off of each other.... the Mullah especially the MMA variety gives the Feudal the religious impetus to continue?

Tell me has the honor killing vanished from Pakistan? or NWFP? It is feudal and tribal right? then why not? because the mullah doesn`t give two shi-ts about Pakistan. The only party that has the potential to deliver us from the feudal and Mullah threat now is the PPP ... no matter how feudal infested it is...

Romair, the air marshal, claims that PPP has the support of the feudal masses... last time I checked the down trodden and the sabzi wallahs, kooray wallahs, and labor class and the minorities, ... they were not defined as the `feudal` masses.

-YLH