The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan

I just ran into these interacts out of curiosity to see what is up with the Social Mobility and turns out that many of the Jawans were ready to walk over the Field Marshall. Pretty disappointing! I may not agree with Romair on some aspects of life, but he is one of the very few decent fellows on Chowk.

Yasser, you have not joined PPP right now and your demeanor is ready to rip your opponent apart. Just think about all the arguments and opponents you will run into that will drive you nuts. What are you going to do then? Get excited and heated up on each and every thing?
On a serious note: You need to go through some rigorous training to be on a path where you let go of things. Otherwise, your system will hold all the fossil fuel in your head and heart and devoid you of achieveing anything.

By the way, whether you choose to join PPP or PML or IJT, it`s your prerogative. Since you have aquired all the wisdom on the face of the earth by delving into Stanley Wolpert, I am sure you know all the nuances of life. Well good for you and certainly good for your future better half!

Ref hamidm2 #153

[chowk staff - please ban romair for a few weeks ............please]

Isn`t he one of the founders -- and thus a beneficial owner -- of Chowk?

So what you are asking is out of the question, I am afraid.

re. fuzair #163:
Actually, it makes perfect sense, no confusion at all.
Pakistanis want the Army to keep the politicians in line and more or less under control (as when Kakar forced both Ghulam Ishaq Khan and NS to resign and brought in Moeen Qureishi) but not to rule directly.

Ah, but then this is interference in politics, is it not? And the last time I checked, Politics was about `running the state`.

Pakistanis also want Pakistan to be an Islamic state (whatever that means) and its laws to be based on 7th century Arab tribal customs but don`t want mullahs to rule directly or be involved in politics.

Ah yes, the distinction between the religion and the clergy. When has there EVER been a religion without one, or a theocracy without a special class of `interpretors` whose fatwas can, ultimately, have no basis in public opinion and consensus?

Pakistan already IS a Muslim state. When folks say they still want a state based on Islamic idelogy, what else can they mean BUT Shariah, in some degree or other.

I stand by my original contention: Pakistanis are in state of deep-seated confusion. And it`s not difficult to see why.



#162 by PM on October 31, 2003 8:21am PT
A STATE OF (IN?) CONFUSION:

From the posted survey results in #159:

A clear majority of the Pakistani respondents, and even larger majorities in NWFP and Balochistan, said the army should not participate in the politics.
yet
54% per cent voted for army`s permanent institutionalised role in running the country, and 51% approved the establishment of the National Security Council

and

An overwhelming majority of the respondents said all Pakistani laws should be based on Islam...
but
However, 59% felt that religion should be separated from politics and that there was no place in politics for religious leaders.

And there you have it. We want what we don`t want. And so we get exactly the same!

To any normal human being ... non-theocratic would mean secular... but not so for Romair...

Fuzair #163: I would agree.

Though I don`t think the Pakistanis want the laws based on 7th century customs. They just want some Islam in their public life. But not of the 7th century variety.

I try to follow surveys to figure out what the views of Pakistanis. And one thing I have become convinced of is that those views are very different from the views expressed by a majority of Pakistanis on Chowk. All the surveys I follow, Herald, BBC, Davos, etc. generally have the same results. So they must be portrying the correct picture.

The surveys same to indicate:

Pakistanis love politics and civilian democracy, but trust the Army as an institution quite a bit more than they trust the politicians as an institution.

On the whole, Pakistanis do not want a theocracy. And they don`t like Mullahs. Even the recent rise of MMA has more to do with good political maneouvring, US actions in Afghanistan, and most of all voters being completely fed up with the more secular ruling parties which have screwed NWFP and Baluchistan.

At the same time, Pakistanis do not want a secular Pakistan. This is why there is no party in Pakistan which is purely secular (except maybe Tehrik-i-Istaqlaal of Asghar Khan). Parties like PPP etc. are non-religious, though not secular.

Pakistanis really like Islam in their private life (hardly any Pakistani ever switches religions, even the ones on this site who hate Islam). And they want a non-theocratic non-sectarian moderate form of Islam in their public life, i.e. they don`t want to be Iran and they don`t want to be Turkey of old (even Turks don`t want to be Turkey of old, and Iranis don`t want to be Iran of Ayotollah days anymore).

Interestingly, on this site, there is always a battle going on between individuals who want Pakistan to turn into Iran and others who want to turn it into Turkey. And both groups seem convinced that Pakstanis want that. Perhaps they should follow more surveys.

There is no PML in Pakistan... this is a lie... and the Air Marshal knows it... it is a winners club... many of the PML Q winners were only a few years ago in the PPP... case in point: Gulzar Khan and Waqar Khan...

This PML (abcdefghijk etc) is not a party... it is a bunch of people who always win due to the biradari system and then play with the emotions of the people by using names like PML and jinnah and quaid-e-azam...

But who can explain it to a loser like the air marshal?

-YLH

Ferozek,

First of all ... I don`t think BB`s position within the PPP is appointed, but rather is due to the charisma of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Bhutto family has some what of a cult status in the PPP... Benazir is the chairperson because the common PPP worker wants her to be ... she is symbol of Bhuttoism to them. PPP`s stalwarts... those like Aitzaz Ahsan etc realize full well that they are there because of that strong symbolism. Bhutto`s cult lives on and his daughter is what the voter in Pakistan rallies to.

I mean let us be fair... parties in South Asia are not exactly like the parties in the west. The parties in South Asian Countries revolve around a demand, a cause and a charismatic personality.

1) Gandhi stayed outside the Congress but still the Congress high command got its marching orders from Gandhi`s ashram...

2) Jinnah appeared for elections every year, but there was no doubt that he could have done without it, as he was the `Quaid-e-Azam`...

3) Nehru was Party leader and he was replaced by his daughter.. and his daughter was replaced by her son, and now the italian daughter in law leads South Asia`s OLDEST political party... all because of the cult of personality.

4) Awami League continues to be led by Hasina ... cult of Mujeeb still at work.

5) BNP is led by Khaleda Zia... cult of Zia ur Rahman at work

6) The leadership of ANP remains within the family of Wali Khan.... cult of Bacha Khan lives on

7) MQM`s Quaid for life is Altaf Bhai.... again the cult of personality


I can go into regional and sub regional groups and the list is endless... but the fact all major parties of the Subcontinent which have been popular amongst the people have been this way is indicative of our current stage of political maturity. No doubt someday we might convert our political parties into more of the western prototype, but right now it is wrong to assume that...

I think this is the dictator`s trick... to talk about intra-party elections... the only parties which have intra party elections are parties like PML Q ... and Imran Khan`s Tehreek-e-Insaaf (which again is a personality cult though very unsuccessful one no matter what the Air Marshal will have us believe)... the result of the dictator`s trick is that a virtual nobody.. somebody who couldn`t have imagined in his wildest dreams ... became the prime minister of Pakistan. So much for intra-party elections.

-YLH

Re the Field Marshal`s comment about how all the folks in the Pak Army below the rank of Colonel or Brigadier are so honest.

If I remember correctly, in the Indian Army one gets a promotion based on time served up to the rank of Major or Leutenant Colonel. Meaning, 2 years as 2nd Leutenant to get promoted to Leutenant, 3 years as Leutenant to get promoted to Captain, etc. Unless of course one is caught in some really ugly situation that get one court-martialled. I don`t think the rules are any different in the Pak Army so what is the big deal about all ranks below Colonel being honest? They HAVE to be honest if they have any hopes of getting to the rank of a general officer.

Zakk #160: I will recheck my sources, and update. I am quoting these figures from what I remember from Balakh Sher Mazari’s book. I did say that the PPP did win seats in NWFP. The Sherpao family was a powerful PPP force in NWFP (until it recently split). However, if I remember correctly, it in no way controlled NWFP; nor was it the dominant party. NWFP in the 70 elections,

In 1970, PPP won 83 out of the 138 seats in West Pakistan. However, in NWFP and Baluchistan, the govt. was formed by National Awami Party together with their political ally, Jamiat-ul Ulema-i-Islam, JUI, (of Maulana Mufti Mahmood got clear majorities in Baluchistan and the North West Frontier Province)

The religious parties votes this time around were 11%. They were actually higher in 1970 at 15%. (http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2002/cover1nov2002.htm).

The PML has split up into six or seven factions. PPP only has one split faction PPP(Sherpao) group in NWFP. If you were to combine the votes of all the factions, PML would come out ahead. In the last elections, PML(Q) got 25-29% of the vote (depending on whose figures one follows). PML(N) got 11%. They were head to head in Punjab, specifically in Lahore. If they had one candidate, he/she would have won out. For example, Nawaz Sharif competing in Lahore would have gotten the whole PML(Q) and (N) vote. Even when the PML vote was divided, PML(Q) still ended up controlling the Punjab provincial assembly.

Generally, the Punjabis view PML as their party now. Just like Sindhis view PPP as their party. And Muhajirs view MQM as theirs. And the Pathans view ANP as theirs. And the maulvis view MMA as theirs.

“Secondly I don`t think you can discount the PPP as the dominant party,”

PPP is definitely a dominant party. In terms of total votes/seats as a combined party, I would place it at no. 2 behind a combined PML. What I am stating is that Pakistan’s vote is so split, that no one party now has appeal nationally. They are all popular in portions of the country. Unlike the USA or Canada, where two or three parties are everywhere.

Perhaps a better way to look at the seats is provincially, by combining all the factions:

Following are the results from the provincial assembly:

---

Punjab Sind NWFP Baluchistan
PPP + PPP (Sherpao) 62 51 17 2
PML(Q + N +Z +J + F + Jinnah) 151 21 10 10

The only place the PPP vote was split was in NWFP. The PML vote was split, everywhere, specially in Punjab. I really don`t think PPP can win 62 provincial seats in Punjab, against a united PML. And the most popular party in Punjab, invariably, is the most dominant in Pakistan. Even in Sind, MQM had 31 provincial seats in comparison to PPP`s 51.

Also, in my opinion, a true test of popularity can only be seen in the urban vote, where voters are more free to vote for whomever they want. The urban vote is split between PML, MQM, PPP, and MMA, ANP (even PTI) much more evenly than the feudal vote. The feudal vote is nearly all PPP and PML (with Baluchi tribals and MMA, and ANP only having some vote).

Romair,

The only one in a state of denial is you. I have asked you a simple question... Why has this great `NATIONAL` party called MMA scored less than 1/3rd of the votes of what the PPP did?
1 Million paltry votes... and even Zakkk has admitted that there was the Afghan Refugee vote in them. The truth is that the PPP was not allowed to mobilize and still it whooped every other party`s rearend.

By the way where does this `United PML` exist, what is its manifesto, and why does it have universal appeal... remember this `United PML` of your dreams has nothing to do with the original league (infact PPP has more to do with the original league than this `United` PML`)... PPP has grassroots support in all provinces... as even your buddy zakk has pointed out. Your United PML and PML Q are parties of those remnants of feudalism which were once represented in great numbers in a party called the Unionist Party.


You keep on quoting figures after figures which in no way prove any of your points... you are the Pakistani version of that Indian character Sadna who used to bore us in quite the same fashion with half truths and lies based on nuggets of fact, few and far between a plate full of venomous hot sauce of lies. God save Pakistan from losers like you. Thank God you are living in Canada... well I feel bad for the Canadians... but hey better them than us.

-YLH

Romair,

The only one in a state of denial is you. I have asked you a simple question... Why has this great `NATIONAL` party called MMA scored less than 1/3rd of the votes of what the PPP did?
1 Million paltry votes... and even Zakkk has admitted that there was the Afghan Refugee vote in them. The truth is that the PPP was not allowed to mobilize and still it whooped every other party`s rearend.

By the way where does this `United PML` exist, what is its manifesto, and why does it have universal appeal... remember this `United PML` of your dreams has nothing to do with the original league (infact PPP has more to do with the original league than this `United` PML`)... PPP has grassroots support in all provinces... as even your buddy zakk has pointed out. Your United PML and PML Q are parties of those remnants of feudalism which were once represented in great numbers in a party called the Unionist Party.


You keep on quoting figures after figures which in no way prove any of your points... you are the Pakistani version of that Indian character Sadna who used to bore us in quite the same fashion with half truths and lies based on nuggets of fact, few and far between a plate full of venomous hot sauce of lies. God save Pakistan from losers like you. Thank God you are living in Canada... well I feel bad for the Canadians... but hey better them than us.

-YLH

Actually, it makes perfect sense, no confusion at all.

Pakistanis want the Army to keep the politicians in line and more or less under control (as when Kakar forced both Ghulam Ishaq Khan and NS to resign and brought in Moeen Qureishi) but not to rule directly.

Pakistanis also want Pakistan to be an Islamic state (whatever that means) and its laws to be based on 7th century Arab tribal customs but don`t want mullahs to rule directly or be involved in politics. Remember, mullah is still pretty much an insult for most of us: along the lines of, ``itnay bhi to mullay na bano!`` and worse.

Mantolives:

If you are considering to join PPP, then I would like to extend my heartiest felicitations to you. However, Feroz Saheb has quite appropriately advised you on few shortcomings of this decision. Some pointers from my side:

1. PPP used be a party of the poor and for the poor. This is no longer true. If you look at their elected parliamentarians now, almost all of them are feudals.

2. The PPP folks are extremely frustrated in their own constituencies. They have been out of power since 1996 and need to show authority and ability to develop their areas. Since they are no longer able to do that, the future is grim for them. I am absolutely positively sure that in years to come, PPP will futher dwindle in size and popularity.

3. Due to the profile of an average PPP person, you may find yourself a bit out of place, except if you spend time with people like Ch. Aitezaz, N.D. Khan, etc.

A STATE OF (IN?) CONFUSION:

From the posted survey results in #159:

A clear majority of the Pakistani respondents, and even larger majorities in NWFP and Balochistan, said the army should not participate in the politics.
yet
54% per cent voted for army`s permanent institutionalised role in running the country, and 51% approved the establishment of the National Security Council

and

An overwhelming majority of the respondents said all Pakistani laws should be based on Islam...
but
However, 59% felt that religion should be separated from politics and that there was no place in politics for religious leaders.

And there you have it. We want what we don`t want. And so we get exactly the same!

Omair, Again some comments of mine, the PPP did win seats in NWFP in the 1970`;s and also polled a respectable number of votes (if I rememebr it was well over the double digits)even now if you combine the PPP seats in NWFP they`d be the second largest parliamentry party after the MMA.It has also often wo the odd seat provincial one in Baluchistan..

Secondly I don`t think you can discount the PPP as the dominant party, lacking it`s main crowd puller the party did not contest th election as actively as it could have.

Thirdly, when you combine the vote of all the PML`s you forget they all contested a large number of seats, combined they had more candidates on the field, so in the First past the Post system you can expect a higher number of votes to be shown in that mainstream group which had the most candidates. Using the same argument one should include all the PPP components vote and I am fairly certain the combined PPP would have been the largest party in votes polled and seats bagged.

Zakk #156: Your views about NWFP are quite accurate. Anyone denying them, is him/herself in a state of denial. Following was a survey carried out by BBC Urdu service, prior to the last elections. I will print out the NWFP related portion of it. The full survey is available at http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/10_october/03/pakistan_opinionpoll.shtml

“The opinion poll commissioned for bbcurdu.com is the biggest of its kind in Pakistan and was conducted in advance of the general elections on Thursday 10 October 2002

It was conducted in 99 cities and towns and more than 100 villages throughout Pakistan.
A total of 2,827 Pakistanis of voting age were asked their opinion about the elections in face-to-face interviews.

The poll demonstrates major regional differences on issues such as allegations of pre-election rigging, the ban on militant organisations and the performance of the military government.

General Musharraf enjoyed considerable support in North West Frontier Province (NWFP) with 60% saying his tenure has proved good for the country.

A clear majority of the Pakistani respondents, and even larger majorities in NWFP and Balochistan, said the army should not participate in the politics.

54% per cent voted for army`s permanent institutionalised role in running the country, and 51% approved the establishment of the National Security Council.

More than half the respondents supported the ban on militant and sectarian organisations.

However, the arrest and handing over of suspected al-Qaeda members to the United States was opposed by 58% of the respondents.

An overwhelming majority of the respondents said all Pakistani laws should be based on Islam, with 100% support in NWFP.

However, 59% felt that religion should be separated from politics and that there was no place in politics for religious leaders.``

The opinion poll results were completely different, depending on which province was being polled. This showed up in the results of the elections, as well.

Interestingly, 100% in NWFP wanted laws based on Islam. And a majority opposed handing over Al-Qaeda suspects to USA. And 60% in NWFP though Musharraf was doing a good job.

This proves what I had been stating. PPP really has little voter base in NWFP. NWFP is a PML, ANP, MMA province. And even though NWFP voters thought Musharraf was doing a good job (60% approval rating), they still voted for MMA. Which indicates that it was the pro-Musharraf parties (PML(Q)), and not the PPP, that lost out in NWFP.

So even if it was rigged, Musharraf would have basically rigged away the popularity of his own party PML(Q) in favor of an opposition party (MMA).

Zakk #various: I would tend to agree with your views. As for rigging, I really don’t know which ones are rigged and which ones aren’t. From what I have read, the IJI ones were rigged.

A part I disagree with is about any party in Pakistan having universal appeal. I don’t think any such party exists. A united PML is the closest thing to such a party. If it is not united then PPP and PML(Q) are the the closest thing. However, no party in Pakistan has ever had appeal across every province. Even in 70, Bhutto did not win in East Pakistan at all, and have little popularity in NWFP and Baluchistan.

Also, one needs to keep the fact in mind that 60-70% of the seats go to feudals. Hence any party that dominates that vote, cannot necessarily be considered universal. They just own the most amount of land. To see true popularity, one has to go to the urban vote. Feudals can switch parties, and still win easily. They are in fact, bigger than the vision of their party.

Currently, Pakistani politics is divided as follows, assuming all parties are united, with their core vote:

PPP (rural Sind, part of Punjab)
MQM (urban Sind)
Baluchi natinoal parties (Baluchistan – which is all rural/tribal)
MMA (rural and urban NWFP, Baluchistan)
PML(united) (rural and urban Punjab, non-Pushtu part of NWFP)

Any party that dominates Punjab will dominate Pakistan, since the population of Punjab is greater than the combined population of the remaining provinces. And Punjab is now completely a united PML province. Had the PML not been split, PPP would not have even gotten the 34 seats it got.

PPP should be the leader of opposition party. However, it has lost the initiative to MMA, because it is remote-controlled by Benazir. She is sacrificing her party’s interests to hide her own corruption. Due to this, PPP has moved towards the MMA agenda, rather than getting the MMA agenda to move towards the PPP agenda.

In fact, PPP could have been in power. I believe Amin Fahim was offered the PM position in a coalition with PML(Q). Once again, that did not suit Benazir. It is not in the interest of Benazir to have a strong PPP leader emerge in her absence. That leader could then take over the party. This is why PPP never holds internal elections, and Benazir is its lifetime President. PPP is thus an autocratic family dictatorship, i.e. Benazir and her feudal wazirs.

This is why PPP will never be able to realize its vision. Even though, it has a good vision. Its vision goes against the personal interests of its leadership. MMA has a completely screwed up vision, but it has been able to recognize it. Because, its leaders have implemented their vision, and their parties are generally internally democratic.

The best thing that could happen to PPP (and to Pakistan) is for it to be free of the clutches of the Bhutto family and the feudal upperclass. It needs a middle class urban leadership. Even an upper class urban leadership will be fine. This is why, PPP cannot get the taxiwallah on the streets against the Army govt. Because the taxiwallahs have more in common with the middle class Army (their sons maybe in it), than they have with the super-upper class feudal leadership of PPP. This is also why the MMA (and MQM) can get people on the street, against the military govt., whenever they want to. Because its leaders belong to the same social group as its followers, i.e. lower class to middle class.

An urban led PPP, with its vision, is the best thing that could happen to Pakistan. A feudal led elitist PPP is going to take Pakistan down the drain.

re: YLH

Since you are thinking about joining a political party, PPP, as you seek a platform to usher Pakistan towards democracy.

I know your committments towards democracy and I do not doubt your idealism. I have a few simple questions, if you care to answer them. A lack of answer would be just as welcomed.

Do you agree or not, that before joining a party, it would be nice to see if that party represents the views one holds and if one, as yourself, is keenly devoted to the cause of democracy, how do you reconcile the fact that PPP has a chairperson for life; its leaders are appointed and not elected, like any other party in Pakistan? Will you sacrifice your idealism on the alter of party interests? When you join a party, will consider that ends justify the means or that the means justify the ends? In the end, and please think of it; are you prepared to pay the ferryman?

You are welcome to join the PPP or any other alphabetic combination, and I hope you discover, what you are searching. I hope that you have reasoned your choice and not rationalized your choice on the basis for what happened vis-a-vis the arrest of Javed Hashmi.

YLH, I hope you will over look this slight if I offer you some words. Politics is like the picture of Dorian Grey and when you join a cause, please decide wisely. Decide whether the choice is worth the internal decay that must be forebeared in order to maintain the outward apprearances. Some times the price is too costly and if you make this Faustian bargin, you will have to pay the price. Again, ask yourself if you are prepared to pay the ferryman and remember that old line in the Bible: what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul in the process? You will have to answer this question my friend

Ciao

Mantolive said:The seats as you might recall are divided in such a way that every Pakistani has equal representation and that is why NWFP has so few seats compared to say Punjab in the NA... Zakk`s claim that they are smaller is almost as big a lie as his/her other lie about the Afghan refugees

---

Not exactly true, Karachi represents 10% of the population but I believe has fewer seats, Pakistans seats are not evenly distributed on the basis of population, if that was true why does Maulana Fazlur Rehman (aka Diesal) poll over 100,000 from his ancestral seat in DI Khan and the winner in my home town poll 15,000 seats? (with the approx same turnout?)

My ``lie`` as you so colourfully say about the afghan refugees is again interesting, have you been to Peshawar? I used to live there and still have relatives there, in some sub urban areas you would be lucky to hear anything other than Dari. I don`t deny the afghan refugee vote, but let`s not blow it out of proportion.

Also the MMA has achieved National Status, it won seats in every province, noticeably it has done well in places like Islamabad and Rawalpindi as well. While the PML(N) has ceased to exist as a National party and is essentially an ethnic Punjabi party now (with a smattering of Pashtuns and Baluchis)

None of this detracts from the fact that the PPP is essentially the only opposition Party that has true broad based appeal, and by right should be the offical opposition...but when discussing impartially facts one mustn`t rule out the unique success of the MMA.

Lastly, Omair: Pervaiz Musharraf himself stated on National television that the 1990 and 1997 elections were rigged. Sadly whenever the Pakistan establishment rigs elections they overdo it..the result was the IJI and the heavy mandate.

Lest anyone forget...

IRREGULARITIES IN THE 2002 ELECTIONS
(From South Asian Voice)

---

excerpt

---

Whereas domestic observers pointed to numerous irregularities in the electoral process, the US was quick to give the elections a clean chit. Writing for the Dawn newspaper, Masood Haider (Oct 12) reported: ``The United States said on Friday it accepted the election results in Pakistan as being a credible representation of the full range of opinion in the country``. That voter turnout was estimated to be as low as 12 to 15 per cent by Pakistan`s Tehrik-i-Insaaf (or around 20% by the PML-N) obviously did not appear to concern US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher. Neither did it seem to worry him how a wide range of election participants and observers had criticized the conduct of the polls and the entire electoral process.

For instance, a Dawn story (Oct 12) spoke of how the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) ``regretted that not content with its pre-poll manipulation of the electoral process, the administration seemed to have continued to tamper with it during the polling and afterwards``.

The HRCP had fielded over 1,300 field observers, who attempted to monitor the polling in 116 National Assembly constituencies, and closely watched the proceedings at over 500 polling stations. In their reports, they noted that grave irregularities had marred the elections.

For instance, in some districts, (such as in Sanghar) police officers seized polling stations, threw out candidates` polling agents and stamped the ballots themselves. Complaints made to the Election Commission were ignored. At several polling stations in Sindh and Punjab supporters of the military-backed candidates took control of proceedings, threatened the HRCP`s observers with violence and prevented their entry into polling booths, as they tampered with the ballots. Ballots were stolen, fake ID cards were in circulation, and many postal ballots were found in unauthorized hands

At some polling stations in Punjab, indelible ink was missing, allowing some voters to cast more than one vote. At other locations, polling stations were changed at the last minute, or valid electoral lists were missing thus preventing legitimate voters from casting their votes. Many voters complained that their names had been omitted from the electoral lists even though they had voted in the previous elections and had not changed residence. Others complained that when they arrived at polling stations they were told that their votes had already been cast. In Kasur district no responsible authority knew where a particular polling station was.

The HRCP also noted that in Sindh, non-Muslim voters were forcibly prevented from casting votes. At some polling stations in Punjab non-Muslim voters` names were missing from the lists. Ahmadis boycotted the polls because they had been unjustifiably put on a separate list. In the north-western tribal areas poll-watchers said not a single woman had cast ballots as of mid-morning, after vows from tribesmen and Islamic party candidates to prevent women from voting.

Manto,

You are considering joining PPP? Congratulations. It has easily the best people in all of Pakistani politics and military. It`s not perfect, and the militarists will deliberately paint Benazir into a she-devil, but PPP is better than anything else on the horizon, even better than most of what we have in India.

Man, you are really maturing. And it is heartening to see you take on these old forces arrayed bitterly against you. Keep it up and tell your wife-to-be that at least one Indian is very happy for her.

if this were a hockey game everyone would be beating up on romair, including his own team mates !............. the man is relentless!.............. imagine sitting in canada (via amreeka) and lecturing our man ylh, who is right in the middle of things in lahore, on pakistani politics............. how know-it-all fauji!............

ylh zindabad!
romair murdabad!

chowk staff - please ban romair for a few weeks ............please

re Romair 149
``As for elections being rigged. I really don`t know which ones are and which ones aren`t.``

That`s easy. A rigged election is in which PPP comes out successful, otherwise they are very fair, balanced, well done etc etc :) And all that rumor about ISI`s money bags buying seats for IJI, ah pure dirty inventions by the Zionist-RAW lobby. Simple military logic.

Romair is busy analyzing through his arse as usual.

His hatred and bias against the PPP is so clearly showing... for example he doesn`t know that some of these `PML QA` winners were either in the PPP or other parties previously. Case in point Ishaq Khan Khakwani from Vehari...

PML QA is a winners club with the Biradari vote. It is not indicative of the `United PML`s` vote bank. Also I believe it to be an insult to Pakistan and Our History to call these factions `Muslim League`. Most of these `Leaguers` have historically been anti- League. Name one family in PML QA which has historically been in the original AIML? PML N has a few but not PML QA... whereas PPP had many of its stalwarts who had earlier formed the Rank and file of those following Jinnah... i.e. Meraj Khalid, Rao Rasheed, Mian Sali`s family etc

PPP`s vote bank is from the masses... the so called `PML`s` vote bank is from the `biradari`.


-YLH

PM, Zakkk,

1 Million votes are not popularity... It simply means that other voters have not been mobilized. 1 million votes for 68 seats which are supposed to represent close to 35 million people of Pakistan? The seats as you might recall are divided in such a way that every Pakistani has equal representation and that is why NWFP has so few seats compared to say Punjab in the NA... Zakk`s claim that they are smaller is almost as big a lie as his/her other lie about the Afghan refugees.

As for Afghan refugees... the `farsi` speaking refugees are a few and far between and they stick out ... so please don`t put up such blatant lies... Afghan refugees are those who are ethnically and linguistically the same as NWFP`s pushtoons and thus have gone around pretending to be Pakistani.

-YLH

PM #147/148: Typo on my part (as well as yours). The elections were in Feb 97. They were not in 95.

As for elections being rigged. I really don`t know which ones are and which ones aren`t. Just what one reads in the newspapers. I think the 97 elections, had international observors, and were considered generally alright - or as good as any other one.

re. Romair ``By the 95 elections, it had lost everything in Punjab, and had become basically in a rural Sind party, with a few odd seats in other provinces and one odd seat (Lyari?) in urban Sind.``

You do realize you`re referring here to the most rigged elections ever in Pakistan, right?

correction: It was the `93 elections that are widely helf to have been massively rigged in PML (then IJI`s) favour.

Chowkstaff: Please do not publish my last post.

The party that actually lost the most, due to the govt.’s interference in the last election was the PML. Not the PPP. In fact, one can make a good argument that the PPP actually gained from the govt. intervention, in certain areas, at the expense of PML.

In the election before this one, the united PML had a, “ahvey mundit” (heavy mandate). The biggest feature of this mundit was that it completely swept the PPP out of Punjab. And that it won seats everywhere, Punjab, rural Sind, urban Sind, NWFP, Baluchistan (not sure).

Contrary to popular belief, PPP, in its starting days was actually more popular in Punjab than in Sind. In the 70 election there was only province that the PPP had an outright majority. And that was Punjab. It had no votes in East Pakistan. It had a few in NWFP. And it had the most of any party in Sind, but not an outright majority.

By the 95 elections, it had lost everything in Punjab, and had become basically in a rural Sind party, with a few odd seats in other provinces and one odd seat (Lyari?) in urban Sind.

In the last election, it made a comeback in Punjab, and a bit in Karachi. Of the total 147 seats in Punjab, PML(Q) won 63, PML(N) won 12, PML(J) won 3, PML(Z) won 1, and PPP won 34.

Prior to this, PPP had won this many seats in 93, when it won 32 seats from Punjab. So PPP made a big comeback this time, and the PML lost ground. However, this is because the PML was split into two major factions. One faction got around 27% of the total vote, and the other got 10% of the total vote. So their combined vote was much greater than the PPP’s. However, specifically in Punjab, these factions of PML were competing against each other, and hence the vote was divided. This allowed some PPP candidates to win.

If one combines the votes of the PML candidates, it is obvious that as a combined party, they would have defeated PPP in Punjab again. In that sense the united PML really lost out in the last election. This is evident from the seats, as well. PPP gained seats and PML lost seats.

Interestingly in 93, of the 32 seats, PPP won only 1 seat in urban Punjab. And this time around, of the 34 seats in Punjab, the PPP won only 3 seat from Lahore and that too because it ran with the combined support of PML(N) on two of those seats. And 3 from Rawalpindi.

All of this information is available at, http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2002/cover7nov2002.htm

Hopefully, this should be enough to convince everyone that the PPP in bad days is rural Sind feudal party. And in good days, is a rural Sind feudal, plus a Southern Punjab feudal party. It didn’t start out this way, but that is where it has ended up now. In urban Pakistan, it can barely win. At best, it can win a couple of seats in urban Sind. And a few of the seats in Urban Punjab (that two if the PML vote is split).

Perhaps, this is because the supporters of PPP do not spend too much time introspecting on why PPP has lost ground in urban areas, where it used to be so popular. Perhaps they should understand that 29% vote is actually mostly a vote from the feudal areas, where the voters have very little choice.

Fuzair:

``I didn`t think you had that many, certainly not in the senior ranks, as you yourself indicated.``


Well, I do not have numbers. Numerically they may be more than PA because of the size of the organization but as a percentage I do not know.


``I think the Pakistan Army probably has more lenient age relaxation than does the Indian one. We get a lot of our officers from the enlisted ranks of the PAF, which has a much higher technical competence requirement than does the Army. ``

Hmm, interesting. The retirement age up to Lt Col was 52, Colonel and Brigadier was 55, Major General was 56, Lt Gen was 58 and General was 60 or three years in post whateverr came first. The BJP gov`t increased the retirement age by 2 years. What are the ages in the PA? Are age barriers relaxed in general or specific to individual officers?

Actually 68 seats does make sense, seats are smaller in NWFP and Baluchistan and voter tunrout is lower, in the First Past the post system, results like the MMA are not totally surprising consider the PPP won West Pakistan with only 39% of the vote. I don`t deny certain elements in the government did promote the MMA but the electoral wave was not something anyone predicted.

I am not to sure about the Afghani refugee population you mentioned as well. A significant number of the Afghani population in Pakistan that have NID cards are at least in Peshawar area, Farsi speaking and not exactly pro MMA.

Manto,

I wish you`d cool it a bit. Stating the fact that the MMA has gained in popularity-- even accounting for factors of rigging-- is not the same as advocating the MMA. The fact is that the bigger parties, even the `national` ones, have failed in the eyes of many a common man, and that opens the door to more religiously slanted ones.

Your time would better spent asking inquiring what needs to be done to correct this perception of the PPP as an opportunist, feudalistic, dynastic, outfit and make it a truly democratic--in every sense!-- one.

Good luck. And I`m with you on this one, btw. I have a couple of future PPP MNAs/MPAs in my pocket and intend to use the influence to it`s maximum good.

As for Javed Hashmi... ok but what about Liaqat Baloch the well known murderer and now a stalwart of the MMA? ... what about the terrorism of the jamiat? MSF is a dwarf compared to your MMA ... why not arrest those people?

Making excuses for the Military regime eh? They arrested a leader of a true national party... who hadn`t in any way or form broken the law... this happened during the time that NA was in session... What amazing democracy... and what supporters of the Army`s actions...

zakkk,

Please do check your figures... 1 million votes for 68 seats (National assembly) doesn`t make sense. Polling the highest number of votes when a substantial number boycotted the polls doesn`t make sense... and what to say of those half million Afghan refugees who were given ID Cards and votes before the election?

I can`t believe how many of your expats want us to end up a theocratic talibanized state. I suppose there is no end to your selfishness... on the one hand you guys support the Mullahs and on the other hand you sing the praises of the Army.


-YLH

Wasn`t Javed Hashmi responsible for the firing the first AK 47 in a Pakistani University?

The MMA did poll the highest number of votes in two of the 4 Provinces. One of the reasons why the MMA hasn`t jumped ship and joined the government is that it`s leaders are staying anti establishment in the hope they can duplicate their success in Punjab.

Omair: your list of Gohar Ayubs relatives was quite comprehensive..I think you missed out Gohar Ayub`s, wife she was elected as an MNA this time around as well. But, to assume the family is one homogenus entity is a bit of jump! Also yes they are related through marraige to the Bilours as well to several generals.

The term Feudal does not neccessarily mean Land Lords, we do have Industrial feudals nowadays, the Sharifs and Chaudhrys of Gujarat could be seen as an example of that, Feudalism in the old sense exists in a relatively smaller area now, Southern Punjab, parts of Baluchistan and interior Sindh...

Stuka:
We use the term the same way here: ex NCO/OR, now commissioned. I didn`t think you had that many, certainly not in the senior ranks, as you yourself indicated. I think the Pakistan Army probably has more lenient age relaxation than does the Indian one. We get a lot of our officers from the enlisted ranks of the PAF, which has a much higher technical competence requirement than does the Army.

RationalFaith:
Agreed about the Army`s need for internal coherence but disagree with your implication that the Army `buys` it. We were not discussing the Army`s overall role in the country`s history (quite negative) but just whether or not the Army was relatively egalitarian/meritocratic. As compared to most other Pakistani institutions, it is. The Army is certainly resource-rich (not as rich as the PAF or the PN) compared to, say, the Education Dept. but what does this have to do with the fact that people who wouldn`t be able to get into the front door at ICI Pakistan or Pakistan Tobacco can get a real chance?

Getting your first star is mildly political in the Pakistan Army but really depends upon whether or not you`ve done the Staff College, what appointments you`ve held, how good your ACR`s are and (above all) whether or not you`ve had any major screw-ups in your career. There are very few really good officers who don`t make it that far. It helps greatly if your ex-CO is now a Corp Commander or GOC but this doesn`t keep good people down, just helps mediocrities. Now, you can argue that you won`t get posted as BM out of Staff College if you don`t know the right people or you won`t be sent on the `right` EREs, that I would disagree with to a great extent but favoritism is certainly a factor. However, a lot of it is along the lines of the PukhPukh Net or Janjua Net or other Biradari Net or ``Infantarians`` or ``Baluchis`` etc helping out a fellow member, not so much in keeping others down.

Sac:
Tikka was generally considered to be professionally quite competent if rather inflexible and unimaginative. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Musa was considered to be a loyal, if exceedingly dull, Yes-Man for Ayub (who was supposed to have been quite bad professionally--he became CinC by accident). My point wasn`t that they got their job because they were the best man for the job but that they succeeded in spite of their socio-economic origins. If the Army wasn`t relatively egalitarian, they would have quietly retired as a major somewhere, doing the quartermasters job.

You say:
``You may call it egalitarianism, I call it mediocrity. If a mere Major or Colonel can get enough moolah to jump a few social classes his NCO dad could only dream of, I am not sure what lesson to draw?``

Ummmm, the lesson I draw is that the son of a Havildar is not condemned to be a Havildar but that if he has a certain amount of drive, initiative and competence, he can do better than his father. Or does the son of the WAPDA office peon have better career prospects.

I am further amazed that you think the ability to pass promotion exams and make it to major are ipso facto evidence of mediocrity. If you argue that the promotion exams are so ridiculously easy that a West Point plebe could pass the Pakistani Army`s Captain-Major promotion exam, I would probably concede your point on mediocrity. I`ve seen the exams and helped friends study for them and they are certainly not difficult stuff to pass. Lots of less than exciting stuff on how to site machine guns or how much atta etc is used by a platoon or what did old Khalid bin Walid do at the battle of Yarmuk or Rommel at El Alamein but you`ve clearly missed the point of the whole exam. It is to gauge minimum levels of competence, not to see who is the ``best.``

To Be Continued

Hamidm,

Javed Hashmi`s arrest represents the true freedom and democracy ushered by Musharraf and celebrated by the great political, business, and literary mind ... aka Field Marshal Air Chief Marshal, 4 star general, the Bill Gates of Pakistan... the one and only Umair Raja.

The conditions of men and women under the MMA government in NWFP are appalling... soon Peshawar will look like Kandahar of Mullah Omar`s time... and some a-holes sitting in their cosy houses in the freedom of Canada are actually celebrating the Military backed rigged triumph of the MMA as a great achievement for Pakistan.

After reading the comments of Hamidm, sac and others have just catalyzed something which I already was in the process of doing... joining the Pakistan Peoples` Party...

I am surprised at the figures that Romair is trying to pass off so innocently. If anything the `United PML` is exactly that band of feudals that he claims to be so opposed to. It is not on any manifesto or ideology ... these are the remnants of those `Unionists` who had before partition opposed the League and the Congress and then in the end had jumped on the bandwagon of the League when Pakistan was around the corner. PPP is ideologically the successor of the leftist liberal element of the pre-Partition League and the Pakistan Movement which was epitomized by great men like Mian Iftikharuddin, Meraj Khalid, Rao Rasheed and J A Rahim.

PM

I am not sure what you mean when you say that my support for the PPP is purely pragmatic... it is ideological. I support the PPP because to me it represents the progressive forward bloc of the real Muslim League and the Pakistan Movement... that Mian Iftikharuddin represented at one point. While I am not a fan of state control of resources, I am ideologically allied with the left.

I am not associating the Honor killing culture with the MMA... read what I wrote once more instead of defending the air marshal without real reasons. The Honor killing is after all a tribal issue or in other cases a feudal one... What has this `MMA` done to stop it? FOR GOD`S SAKE THEY ARE IN THE ABSOLUTE MAJORITY IN NWFP... couldn`t they have a put an end to it... So much for the Counterfeit coin`s suggestion that MMA is a solution to the feudal problem....

Mullah dethroned the conventional politicians of NWFP on 1) Anti-Americanism 2) Foreign Pushtoon vote... even then they managed a paltry 1 million or so votes... Your claim that the loser Romair`s figures are right shows that you too have a purdah in front of your eyes.. while he is right that the MMA won 11% of the votes, were the mainstream parties allowed to mobilize their workers? No... and even then PPP won 3 times as many votes.


You know you are wrong in supporting this militaristic monster... but you will go on supporting him, because you are you... and I won`t fault you for that... and yes you are still welcome to the beach luxury attempt... despite your temporary madness.

-YLH

tahmed,

......... as usual i was stretching a bit to make a point ............. there are many fine men in the aec ....... my favourite cousin left lawrence college and joined aec to teach the idiots at kakul............

.............since i grew up on groceries from the csd, my beef is not with individuals in the army, what bugs me is what the army has done to all other institutions while claiming to be holier than the pope ............they are not ........... it is sort of petty to point out the petty larceny that goes on among the uniformed and the uninformed but, as my little one would say, ``they started it!``

............ i don`t think if my father ever mentioned wavell`s son but according to him wavell walked on water and auchinleck was an idiot .......... i don`t even know or care who auchinleck was ......... as for dinner with the queen, he was part of the contingent that went to pay homage to malika sahiba on her coronation and made fools of themselves by marching in turbans through trafalgar square and scaring off the pigeons!

Romair #48 gets the sitara-i-juraat for his vast knowledge for his vast knowledge of the family tree of the frontier military...you missed a few families, but never mind.

Hamidm #127 gets the sword of honor because your dad met the Queen. Way to go, hamidm.

more seriously to hamidm: Incidentally, did your dad ever mention wavell`s son - he was quite a character i understand, having lost both hands and still able to take good care of himself as an army officer (my dad went on a course in the early 1950`s to england where he met him). He was later killed by the mau-mau in Kenya.

And now, hamidm, it is my duty to defend the honor of the (drum roll) AEC. the Army Education Corps. I have known too many fine, honorable AND talented men from this corps to let you cast aspersions on them. Examples:

a. There was this NCO in AEC. imprisoned by brits at kala pani or someplace because he was such a bloody revolutionary in his younger days. man of many talents. great photographer. impressed me the most the day he beat the stuffing out of the pakistan national youth ping pong champion (who was visiting us in upper topa where this man was still working as a civilian employee after retirement - the AEC was his family since he never married or had any relations we knew of) - even though this man was in his 70`s and the ping pong champion was a big mouth teenager who had just returned from a tournament in china. He had the champion running all over the room trying to catch his masterful spins and dazzling shots. Yeah!!

b. Then there was this chappie retired as brigadier who used to work at the same military school as my father. great sense of humor. voluntarily put his own career on the line to stand by my father during a rough patch my dad went through since he knew my dad was right. after retirement, he started a school that has done very well.

c. This gentleman who was principal of cadet college chittagong. Still remembered by his students in Bangladesh (even though he was west pakistani himself). Was the first pakistani principal of cadet college hasanabdal (the previous principals had all been brits, and very fine people too). Lived up to expectations and maintained and improved upon the high class all-round education standards set by the previous principals. Later went on to become principal of aitchison college. A great gentleman, great sense of humor, and a life-long family friend.

d. This other gentleman, who as also principal cadet college chittagong. Risked his life to stay with his college during the turmoil of 1971. Paid with his life for his concern for his (bengali) students when the mukti bahini came to his home and killed him as a soft target.

The list goes on. But just take it easy when you feel the urge to knock the Army Education Corps. OK, dokay?

..... what is all this about?............ have the blasphemy laws been extended to cover the coas(?) in addition to allah(swt) and his prophet(pbuh)?

``a senior Pakistani opposition leader, Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, is under arrest accused of defaming the army. ``... bbc

Fuzair: Actually we have a lot of ranker officers. I think we define ``ranker`` differently though. In India, a ``ranker`` is a person who enlists in the ranks and then becomes an officer. There are loads of those but they rarely go above major or Lt Colonel and age is a big issue there. They become commissioned say in their late 20S OR EARLY 30s and then reach retirement age around Major rank.

I think u are referring to ``rankers`` as sons of those whose father was a ranker. If that is a case, I would say that in absolute terms, a disproportionatley large number of officers are sons of JCOs and SNCOs.

Fuzair #129

Armies, in general, tend to be more egalitarian. Militaries need internal cohesion far more than do other institutions.

In Pakistan`s case this cohesion becomes easier in the army than elsewhere because the miltiary is the only resource-rich institution in the country. This affords the military certain social luxuries that may not be available elsewhere, except in the private corporate sector.

So IMO claims of egalitarianism are more a red herring than anything else, as far the military`s overall role in the nation is concerned.

re stuka;

Yes.

re fuzair and hamidm;

hamidm has this habit of stealing my thunder but I don`t mind :)

If Musa or Tikka khan were success stories in the army, were they there because of their professional excellence, military egalitarianism or some other factor(s)? Now please don`t tell me that Zia was a sword winner or Ayub could lead his platoon blindfolded through the jungle. Army progression through to Major rank is pretty much automatic if you pass the requisite courses and not mess with the Colonel`s daughter. You may call it egalitarianism, I call it mediocrity. If a mere Major or Colonel can get enough moolah to jump a few social classes his NCO dad could only dream of, I am not sure what lesson to draw?

After the Lt Col. level there are so many other factors besides professionalism that to argue a meritocracy would be missing the obvious. These days it wouldn`t hurt to be a mohajir or having a penchant for whisky. Egalitarian my ass!!

As for Phds identified by the Field Marshal, the guys were sent in the late 80s to 2nd tier Universities in droves because the US aid spigots were open. Most of them spent years failing their Masters requirements. Drove taxi cabs in the meantime and after 5-6 years went back to Muzzafargarh. The rest had to transfer to third rate places like Michigan St. and kiss a lot of Chapta ass in ``challenging`` departments like Civil and Mechanical Engg. for upwards of ten years in some cases to get their Phds. Obviously the glorious republic of Pakistan paid for their sojourn in the land of the plenty. They have gone back but may I ask has anyoen of them even published on research paper in any journal of repute?

later
-sac

Hamidm,

I still stand by what I said about the Army`s egalitarianism. Do you really think that the WAPDA SDO is ever likely to become Chairman WAPDA (if the Army was to give it up) the same way that Musa or Tikka Khan became Army Chiefs? Or that the SDO is possibily going to become the WAPDA equivalent of a Lt. Gen or even a Maj. Gen? (BTW, what is the WAPDA equivalent of this?) What about Sui Gas or any other govt owned enterprise? And how about the Civil Service? Sure, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Secretary General in Chief, or some such ridiculous title, came up through the Provincial Civil Service but was he a peon? Or did he start as a Grade 16 equivalent?

And just because the lower ranks of WAPDA (or anything else) are staffed by people from the lower rungs of the socio-economic scale doesn`t make the institution egalitarian or meritocratic. It simply means that its lower ranks come from the lower end of the socio-economic scale.

So, for better or worse, the Army is pretty much it in Pakistan.

As far as the petty theft you mention, yes it is certainly true. Many officers do this and the Services are particularly bad and if one is lucky enough to do LP, then one makes even more money but most of it is still pretty much petty theft. Sad but true but a good CO puts an end to most of it. Unfortunately, its getting harder to come by good COs these days. There was one Commandant of the PBG who was taking most of his horses` chara and carting it off to feed his mujjes. Consequently, the horses were in bad shape and the Commandant of the Pindi MVH had to put the PBG on an adverse report and stop their polo! The Commandant was replaced. So, yes, these sort of things do happen, much more so now then 20-30 years ago. But, is it as commonplace as it is in the rest of the country? Now, thats not saying much but every now and then the Army does do some internal housecleaning! Not as much as it should but some.

THE NEXUS

---

Following is the family tree of Gohar Ayub. He is the son of Gen Ayub, and a regular minister from PML. His family runs through all the areas of power in NWFP/Pakistan:

Gohar Ayub (regular MNA from PML)

- Son of: Gen Ayub (President of Pakistan)
- Son-in-law of: Gen Habibullah Khattak (appointment Chairman National Industrial Commission by Gen Ayub. He is a big industrialist)
- Brother of: Akhtar Ayub (member of West Pakistan Assembly)
- Brother of: Shaukut Ayub (industrialist)
- Brother of: Nasim Ayub (married to Miangul Aurangzed - Wali of Swat, Governor of NWFP and governor of Baluchistan in 1997-1999)
- Father of: Omar Ayub (current PML(Q) MNA)
- Father of: can`t remember her name (wife of Iqbal Saifullah of Saifullah family)
- Uncle of: can`t remember her name (married into Khakwani family of Multan)
- Grand Uncle of: don`t have her name: (married to Chaudhry Wajahat - younger brother of Chaudhry Shujaat, who is the head of PML(Q), and most powerful politician of Pakistan

The fun doesn`t stop here:

The Saifullah and Khattak families, i.e. Ayub`s inlaws are dynasties of their own:

- Gohar Ayub`s son-in-law`s (Iqbal Saifullah`s) brother, Humayun Saifullah was an MNA from PPP
- His other brother, Salim Saifullah is the head of PML(Q) in NWFP
- A third brother, Anwar Saifullah was a minister of Natural resources in the PPP govt. of Benazir. He was recently held by NAB
- Anwar Saifullah is the son-in-law of ex President Ghulam Ishaq Khan. This would make Ghulam Ishaq Khan the father in law of one brother (Anwar) and Gohar Ayub the father in law of the other brother (Iqbal Saifullah)
- President Ghulam Ishaq Khan`s other son-in-law, Irfanullah Marwat, was the Education Minister of Sindh

Now to the Khattaks:

- Gen Habibullah (father in law of Gohar) is the step brother of Aslam Khattak, and the real maternal Uncle of the Saifullah brothers.
- Aslam Khattak was the governor of NWFP under Bhutto`s govt. He was an assembly member of various occassions under Bhutto and Zia
- Aslam Khattak`s step brother, Yosuf Khattak, was a General Secretary of PML, after independence
- Aslam Khattak`s son-in-law is Nawabzada Mohsin Ali Khan. He was a minister in the provincial assembly of NWFP. He then got elected as an independent. And is now with Imran Khan`s Tehrik-i-Insaaf, as a member of NWFP assembly.
- Khattak`s son Lt. Gen. Ali Quli Khan Khattak was supposed to be the next COAS, until Nawaz Sharif appointed Musharraf over him

I hope everyone gets the idea. The list goes on and on. They are all related. These are only the relations I know of. If you dig furthur, they will be related to others also. I believe they are related to the Bilour political family of ANP, also (not sure though).

Even if every one of these guys in honest, and running NWFP honestly, it still is strange that all the talent of NWFP is concentrated in these three or four families. Is everyone else in NWFP completely useless? And if they are so good, then why is NWFP so backwards?

And most of all, all these guys are spread out through all the parties, PPP, PML, ANP, Beurecracy (GI Khan), Army (not any more, though) and business. And, they switch parties, back and forth. Thus, it doesn`t matter who or which party, is running the country, it is all within the family.

And what chance in hell does anyone have of defeating them? I am really surprised the mullahs were able to kick some of them out.

#123 by romair is typical of the kind of crap that he doles out which is supposedly based on the the cirle of ten uniformed clowns that he knows ``personally`` ..............well if we are going to drop names, then my old man was on wavell`s staff, had his picture taken with auchinleck, had dinner with the queen in buckingham palace, and i was running up and down the hills of kakul while he was still peeing in his pants!......... so there!

.......... all these lame stories about Ph.d`s in service are totally out of context .........signals, eme and engineers are not representative of the army which is full of fools with B.Sc. (two year) degrees fromn the university of peshawar ............ i sat through some of those classes taught by hapless majors from the aec - guys who could not get jobs as lecturers at the local college and instead learned to put on a uniform and salute in ten weeks at abbotabad (sorry, tahmed)..................and these dang Ph.D`s (from michigan state and georgia tech) were also earned at the poor pakistani tax payer`s expense .......... and lest you start feeling sorry for these brilliant lt. col`s at NUST, don`t forget that they also have lucrative technolgy ventures on the side (anyone heard of enabling technologies!).......... so all this is hogwash.......... most of us, including me, went to grad school on full assistantships and not on handouts from the pakistan army................ so this is all hogwash - lufangebazi, as ahmedmadani would say ............

.......... where was i?.............. oh, let`s talk about the selfless army surgeons..........anyone heard of heart`s international on the mall in pindi which does just as many open heart surgeries as the army institute of cardiology down the street?........ guess who owns it - general zulfiqar and his uniformed cronies who are minting millions even as they serve the nation............ hop on down to shifa international and check out some of the specialists o their staff ..........want to talk about what goes on at pof in wah?

.......... of course there are many decent and honorable junior officers who are willing to lay down their life for their country - but that`s what they are paid to do and we should all be thankful............ but the army, as an institution is as corrupt as it can be .......... it is as bad as wapda and the railways, but unlike them it puts on this air of piety that is sickening !

PM#125:

1. The status quo of NWFP had to be broken. As well as the status quo of Baluchistan. I certainly would have prefered someone else to break it, than MMA. But someone had to do it. Hopefully the status quo in rural Sind will be the next to go. And hopefully that will force the PPP and PML to internally reform themselves, with people like Aitezaz Ahsan replacing Amin Fahims and Bhuttos.

The literacy rate for women in Baluchistan for women is 3.4%. Probably the lowest in the world. Who the hell cares if the Baluchi tribals were a fort of Secularism. Rural Sind is one of the most backward places in the world, as well. So who the hell cares if the ruling PPP there is the fort of Secularism. What are they doing for the people? And how much worse could MMA be? I certainly don`t support it. But the feudals are equally bad or worse.

Now, hopefully, the MMA, being non-feudal will be easier to replace than the PML and ANP, which are the status quo powers of NWFP. And Baluchi tribals, which are the status-quo powers of Baluchistan. If the MMA ends up surprising us, and doing well, then they will be voted in again. Otherwise they will be out.

PPP is not the status-quo power in NWFP nor in Baluchistan. So, it wasn`t affected in either place in the last election. If one goes by votes, the real people`s party in Pakistan is a united PML. Its` combined vote is quite a bit larger than the PPP, in Pakistan. If it had remained one party in the last election, it would have swept Punjab again. The combined vote of PML is around 40% of the total vote. While that of the PPP was around 29%. That of MMA is around 11%. And PML wins in NWFP, Punjab, a little in feudal and urban Sind. While PPP only wins in rural Sind and Punjab (if PML is split).

PPP actually greatly benefited from the split PML vote in Punjab. Otherwise, in the previous elections, PPP had won nothing in Punjab. I doubt PPP can beat a combined PML in Punjab.

I agree more with PPP policies (not leaders, but policies) than PML`s, but the facts should be presented as they are. Not through an emotional bias towards any party. The party I support, PTI, won only one seat. Interestingly, the two parties in NWFP who lost to MMA, i.e. ANP and PML(Q) accepted their defeats.

2. I have found a reference for you regarding the feudals in the Assembly. I could not locate the BBC reference, but this should suffice. The BBC one goes into the party leadership itself, and shows how feudal dominated these parties are internally, also: http://www.saeedshafqat.com/publications/publications_2000/democracy_in_pakistan_2000_5.html

Following are the results in elections from 85 to 97:

Election year: 1985 1988 1990 1993 1997

---

Landlords and Tribal Leaders 157 156 106 129 126
Businessmen/Industrialists 54 20 38 37 39
Urban Professionals 18 9 46 26 32
Religious Leaders 6 15 11 8 3
Retired Military Officers - 7 3 5 2
Others 3 - 3 3 2

---

Total 207 207 207 207

As you can see, feudals rule in the National Assembly. There are % is around 60-75%, which is what I stated. It only fell down in 1990. And has gone back up again. In the last election, maulvis made a big dent into it. Hopefully, in the next one, someone will make a dent into the maulvis seats.

3. Following the write up on Amin Fahim, the current head of PPP, by Cowasjee:

``The temporary leader of Zardari`s party has also been the subject of comment via e-mail from another citizen of Pakistan who also does not wish to reveal his identity as what he relates is hearsay. However, having had confirmation of the hearsay from various members of the Sindhi fraternity who say the practice is common and widespread, the message is worth a quote, as if it is a fact, it is a dread warning to us all of the mindset of the leadership of what is supposed to be the most `progressive` party of the country.

``I have heard that Mr Amin Faheem`s four sisters are married to the Quran - the custom that waderas have in Sindh by which they refuse to marry off their women in order to keep family wealth intact. If true, it is appalling. It indicates the sick mindset typical of such waderas. How can we expect a man like this to be able to make progressive policies for the poor womenfolk of our country who desperately need uplifting? People need to know this. It is very disheartening to see the parade of illiterate bigots on our television channels, day and night, vying for slots in the government, each for his own agenda.`` (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20021117.htm)

Manto,

I just re-read #22, and I find nothing but a grudging (at best) advocacy for the MMA in it. For most of the post, Romair has produced factual information (as far as i know.) Summarizing, the MMA did well in those areas where the PPP as not a major player anyway. Perhaps you could counter that claim with some figures of your own?

The only place I disagree (slightly) with him is in the contention that the MMA ate into only MQM`s votebank in Karachi. There are at least a couple of constiuencies, including my own, where the PPP/PML would always give the MQM a run for their money. MMA taook over this time.

Yes, I think we can blame pre-election rigging for the MMA`s surprising show in some tradtionally PML/PPP constituencies, but those can be counted on one`s fingertips. In the NWFP at least, when I visited last summer, I found the sentiment of the local nais, rickshaw drivers and chowkidars to have swung to the religious right. A rickshaw driver I befriended, explained that, having voted PPP and PML earlier, he decided that MMA might be worth a try this time. I happen to think many common folks up there felt, and voted, similarly. Whether the MMA will deliver them from the growing poverty and unemployment is another matter, of course.

And Iwonder why you associate the honor-killing culture with the Islamist parties. Last time I checked, Saima Anwar`s father didn`t belong to the MMA, and the majority of the MNA`s who voted against denouncing hte tradition in Parliament were NOT, again from Islamist parties. And I have yet to hear advocacy for this inhuman practice from any religious qaurters anyway.

While I agree with you and hamidm`s mother (GBHS) that the PPP is still the party of the masses (though no-where nearly as completly as in was in the 70`s and 80s), I think that really means very little. It would mean something if most of these simple folks could explain why they vote PPP, apart from the promise (yeah, right!) of roti, kapra aur makaan. Ask them how PPP`s manifesto is different from the PML`s and again, I suspect you`ll see, once again, a pattern of voting sentiment that is essentially based on icon-worship, not any ideological or practical considerations.

Make no mistake, your own support of the PPP is based purely on pragmatic grounds (their being the only force capable of conceivably taking on the army)-- not on ideological ones. In this respect, you are only as good or as bad as Romair, who hopes that the MMA will be the one to break the juggernaut he believes Pakistan is held in--the feudals. (Or the feudal-army nexus, which he does admit to.)

Of course, hopefully there will be enough of rightminded folks like yourself, Aitzaz Hassan and Javed Jabbar (hopefully he`ll rejoin once he hears you`re in:) ) who will be able to effect some change in the PPP where it really matters. Maybe a change of dynastic (feudal?) leadership would be a good place to start?

Otherwise, it wouldn`t mean Jack that the PPP is the partywith the most grassroots support.

rgds,
(and crossed fingers)
PM.

P.S. Please email me details of the Beach Luxury event. I will be back and would love a ticket too. `Postmatser`

fuzair,

are you serious ?..............``But still, the army is, to echo Romair, the most egalitarian institution in Pakistan. ``............. and how is it different from wapda, pwd, lda, railways and the guild of professional women in heera mandi ?............. do you mean to say that all the sdo`s drafted into the irrigation department are the offspring of the feudals and nautch girls?....... and what about all the section officers and entry level civil servants in the varioius ministries ?..............are they all son`s of nawabzadas and khanzadas?

.............. talking about how honest the havaldars, captains and majors are is really quite silly.......... they are honest because they don`t have any access to anything worth stealing - they are young crooks in training............ the fact of the matter is that the army is like the mafia - the generals are the dons, and the captains are the tough guys who carry out orders and hope to make it big as crooks one day .............. simple as that ..............it is all a matter of opportunity .......... a major who becomes the quarter master starts off by stealing a few kilos of ata and sugar and half a dozen blankets, and by the time he becomes the quarter master general he is selling off shiploads of goodies ......... and if he becomes the director general of defense purchase he can easily syphon off a few million to swiss bank accounts ............. a captain who is put in charge of the motor pool starts off by stealing a few gallons of petrol which trains him for his future job as the minister of railways with access to millions of gallons of diesel ............. the petty larceny that even the junior officers in services like asc, eme and engineers carry on as a matter of routine is shameful .............road rollers are routinely eaten by white ants and cement meant for building laterines ends up in the co`s house!............and we could go on about station commanders who pillage the messes, commanding officers of the scouts in parachinar who sell off trees, and akrf (ao khao ration free) officers who would sell kashmir back to the pundits if given half a chance .............. so let`s not pretend to be holier than thou .......... i still have a pair of drill boots i shouldn`t have .........

............. but this is all petty stuff.......... the truth is that the army owns and runs the whole country like its fiefdom, and that`s what we should be talking about instead of how much water the gujjar colonel in charge of the military farms puts into the milk ....................

fuzair #106: ``Hey, I resent that remark! I don`t demonize the military!``
PM #109: ``it doesn`t follow from the above that eveyone on chowk-- or even every one wealthy on chowk-- engages in said demonization.``

Both of you are correct. Every rich guy doesn`t demonize the military. I was just trying to make a point, that most of the demonization does come from rich guys. Primarily because, their families are no longer assocaited with the military. The military now consists of financially lower class Pakistanis, who form 90-95% of it, as NCOs/JCOs/airmen etc. And about 5-9% lower middle to middle class folks who form the officer class of my generation. And about 1-4% upper middle class, who are either kids of army officers, or did not have enough money to go abroad to study, or did not have enough grades to get into good college. This is why the farmer and juicewallah and the taxi driver and the shopkeeper will generally be ok with the military, since his kids are probably in it. While the expatriate will not, because his relatives will rarely join it, nor marry into it, any longer.

``However, you are quilty of a broad-brush approach yourself when you paint all generals with the same brush.``

Yes. You are correct again. However, do keep in mind that I am trying my best to educate the bigoted and prejudiced lot about something they have strong opinions, and very little knowledge, i.e. military. It`s like convincing a Jamaatia that everyone in the USA isn`t the Great Satan. If I were to start saying that a lot of Generals are good guys also, then, people would completely tune me out.

There are no doubt competent Generals also. Even Ayaz Amir agrees. But, on the whole, the ratio of competence in the Pakistan military is inversely proportional to the rank.

``even getting a second star doesn`t do that much for you wealth-wise.``

I would say that during civilian govts. you are secure after the second star. If not plots, you will definitely get civilian postings, ambassadorships etc. And a nice house downtown. During Martial Laws, you are secure after the first star. And I must say that I have seen, up close, some very ridiculous appts. being made, where Brigadiers were sent to places they knew little of. I must also say that the civil services folks must be literally living it up. Knew a Brig. who went to equivalent post in Wapda. The guy`s lifestyle completely changed. In the Army, he had one staff car, and lived in the boondocks. In Wapda, he had an Army of cars, lived in the best part of Lahore, and all the big businessmen called on him. Civil servants really know how to make it big, and keep a low profile.

``BTW, I think you are seriously underestimating the number of 2-stars and highers in the Pakistani Armed Forces.``

I maybe. I just got my figures from Ayaz Amir. My figures on PAF are accurate upto nine or ten years ago.

``The Army is as close to a meritocracy as you are likely to find in Pakistan. Whether you like it or not, the Army does offer a great deal of upward social mobility.``

This is true. I think the military and the civil services are really the only way for a financially lower class person to make it to the top. The civil services is extremely comptetive, since the rich guys want to join it, still. So the son of a hawaldar or farmer cannot compete with a kid who returns from Oxford. But he can make it into the military.

There is no way for him to go abroad and become an expatriate, like the rest of us. He cannot get into multinationals. He doesn`t have enough money to start a business. He doesn`t have the sifarish to get into a local good job, even after a degree. So there are very few options left for him.

I had mentioned some of my coursemates. We keep in touch. Amongst my engineering course, in order of merit, I left. The guy below me is about to do a Ph.D. Three below him have a Ph.D from abroad and were in Kahuta, last I checked. I think all of them will leave the military soon, also, since the pays are very low for their qualifications. All of us were from middle to upper middle class families (which is common for PAF).

In the parallel flying course, the guy at the top was flying F-16s last I checked. He has a B.Sc degree. He is from a middle to upper middle class family. He will probably go onto become a General. The guy on top in the Army engineering course, got a Ph.D from USA and teaches at NUST. He will probably leave also, unless the Army gives him something big. He is far too brilliant to be confined to the Army, or even to Pakistan. He would make it big in Silicon Valley, if he wanted to.

Now to the guy, who will become a General. He topped PMA, parallel to me. He is the son of an enlisted Army guy. He was my roommate during a joint training course. His brother is an airman in the PAF. He got an NCOs (?) children scholarship to Military College Jehlum, and then went to JCB/PMA. He is completely from the urdu-medium shalwar qameez lower middle class crowd. He would be lost amongst all the Chowkies, with their American accents and lingo. He is not even from the motorcycle family. He is from the bicycle family. He is truly the, ``common`` Pakistani. A member of the masses of Pakistan, that every expatriate, with two car garages, seems so concerned about.

He is an infantry Lt. Col. right now, and topping all his courses. Should be going for Staff College soon. He will not leave the military, because he doesn`t have any technical qualifications. And because he is too poor to do much in the civil. We are all convinced he will be a General. Some of his coursemates are from Islamabad and Defence societies, but he has left them all behind.

If he had been a civilian, most of the yuppie crowd on Chowk, would not let him into their living rooms. He would have more chance of being their driver (a lot of enlisted guys do this job, when they leave the military), then their equivalent. This is about as socially mobile as anyone can be.

Once he becomes a General, he will probably take his plots, sell them and send his kids abroad, to work with hamidm :-). Then again, he may carry out a coup and be the next President. Though, in my opinion, the Ph.D. at NUST, would make a better CMLA and President :-) However, he is not in a fighting arm, so will not get the command positions.

So I really find it funny, when rich guys in America criticize people like the son of an enlisted man, i.e the common Pakistani, who through hard work, is making something of himself. They should, at least, wait till the guy becomes a General, and then criticize him. Or until he is rich enough to send his kids abroad also :-)

Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the MMA, and what it stands for, one thing it is not..is Feudal. The bulk of the MMA candidates who won ..did not do so on Tribal or Feudal or a financial basis. The only group which campaigned on an ``anti honour killing,`` anti exchange`` marraiges and ``anti blood feud`` platform was the MMA. The PPP may have represented an anti feudal group at one time, but through the hard work of it`s own leadership it is distinctly feudal now...

Lastly, do these Omair swipes have anything to do with feudalism? It seems people associate Omair with a reprsentative of the Amred forces of Pakistan? He is speaking from his own individaul perspective, that maybe flawed..but that doesn`t make personal (and rude) attacks anymore enlightening.

Re: Sac,

The Army is as close to a meritocracy as you are likely to find in Pakistan. Whether you like it or not, the Army does offer a great deal of upward social mobility. Some Army Chiefs (Mohammed Musa, Tikka Khan) have been rankers, Ayub was the son of a retired Rissaldar (Hodson`s Horse?), and Zia was the son of an ungazetted Civilian Employee in GHQ India. There have been many generals (e.g., Lt. Gen. Majeed Malik, that great PML stalwart) who were rankers. I could probably name many more if I cudgel my brain a bit. By contrast, the Indian Army is much less egalitarian and much snootier than ours: they haven`t had nearly the number of ranker officers that we have had. (BTW, as I`m sure you know, ``ranker`` is an insult in the Pakistan Army, so we aren`t too egalitarian!)

But still, the army is, to echo Romair, the most egalitarian institution in Pakistan. Unfortunately, that is also a part of its problem. It is too egalitarian. There are far too many officers who are the sons of JCOs/NCOs and far too likely to be the ``Jo Hukm`` types who will do as they are told. It is very unlikely for one of them to resign his commission on a matter of principle (as did Gen. Sher Ali or Gen. Yaqub Khan--although in Sher Ali`s case, it wasn`t much of one). The Attock attempted coup, such as it was, was to be carried out mainly by English-medium, whisky-drinking types who were disgusted by what had happened to the Army and with Bhutto. I don`t see too many of the current officers, far too Naukari Baaz, being concerned that the honour of the army had been smirched.

Aah well, all countries get the army they deserve.

re manto

``The only party that has the potential to deliver us from the feudal and Mullah threat now is the PPP ...`` No kidding. As bad as so many of its leaders are, ther are some exceptionally sophisticated people like (as himidm points out) Ch. Aitezaz Ahsan and Sherbano `Sherry` Rehman. I`ll add that the only other party, on a smaller and more contained level, that can play the same role is the MQM-again a lot of bad apples but a few good ones.

And I think you`ll be a good and corrective asset to the PPP (the real one not the so called Patriots or whatever they`re calling themselves now)