The Diva as Devi

Hi Farzana,

Firstly, am lucky to have found this article - I may contribute to it two years after you wrote it but what the hell!

As a musician, I have always wondered what made Lata become the diva that she is. I do believe that she has utilised her woman-power and achieved what she is today. Her precise technique of singing, her perfecting the art of rendering any song with the help and advantage of the then music composers and her drive to make sure she sang every possible song that was to be has surely ensured her the status of India`s nightingale.

Perhaps it was not right of her to make sure competition did not exist?!!! I think that we in India, have lost out on `voices` during her peak time. It almost came to a point where a voice without her high pitch and murkis was not appreciated or recognised as a professional voice. Hence there were only the few songs of Shamshad Begum and the other singers. One heard very less of singers like Sudha Malhotra, Vani Jairam or Sulakshana Pandit. Probably, we would have got another exotic dimension out of some other kind of female voice!

Things are a little better today where singers like Sunidhi and Jaspinder and Richa (as far as film music is concerned) are encouraged, appreciated and welcomed. I hope we continue in this manner to discover more `voices`.

Very few writers or speakers will write like this about her but there are always two contradicting faces to every celebrity today. Maybe as an audience, we should open our eyes to such hidden truths and make sure we dont blindly follow any faith without completely understanding all aspects there are to be?

I am responding to your write up for sheer expression of opinion and in now way disrespect the diva herself. Do give yourself a pat on your back for bringing subjects like these to a more global audience.

Kind regards!
RR

Re: # 33
``It was this that made Muzaffar Ali choose Asha Bhosle for Umrao Jaan.`` I am a fan of Asha Bhosle.I hear more songs of Asha than I do of Lata.Lata Mangeshkar might not have been suited for ghazals.If thats your point, I agree to that. ``

Dear Rahul,

The late Madan Mohan would probably turn in his grave reading a statement like this.
Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Lata Mangeshkar has sung dozens of memorable ghazals for movies during her heyday. Much before anyone even thought of Asha Bhonsle as a serious singer of ghazals, Lata had made great impact with her ghazals in movies.
Examples:
Yun hasraton ki daag;
Unko yesh shikaayat hai;
Mujhse mat pooch mere ishq me;
Aap ki nazron ne samjha;
Hai isee me pyaar ki;
Rehthe the kabhi jinke dil mein;
the list can go on and on , but I think I have made my point.

She was singing great ghazals for great composers much before most of us were even born.In fact, as far as old Hindi film music is concerned, it is Talat Mehmood among the male singers and Lata M among the female singers who are considered to be the best in the ghazal genre.This is not my opinion but that of most music composers of those days.
Lataji is in fact considered to be one of our finest ghazal singers as far as her movie ghazals are considered.Her Urdu diction is supposed to be quite flawless.

True Asha did cut some great albums much later in her life, but by that time, Lata had already made her mark as a great ghazal singer many times over.Why is it that the older music directors like Madan Mohan, Roshan etc... who were famous for the ghazals that they gave music to, always preferred Lata for all their great Ghazals?
Cheers,
Aneesh

I am sick and tired of ``intellectual`` write-ups like the one Farzana has written. Firstly, the writer seems to have absolutely no or little knowledge of music and secondly she needs to get her facts right.
For example, she says,
``If she managed some wonderful renditions for Suchitra Sen in Mamta it was entirely due to Madan Mohan’s compositions.``
Statements like the above should be treated with nothing other than disgust.It was Roshan who scored the music for Mamta BTW.
And yes, I reject write-ups like these and writers like Farzana with all the contempt that they deserve.

Aneesh

i think lata does not need to be scrutinized this way. she has achieved her success and fulfilled her dreams.
1. She has a sharp business sense. A knowledge of what people want. You may not hear her ...
> there is nothing wrong being businesslike. they say that maharashtrians don`t have business sense. lata has proved them wrong.
2. i have not heard lata promoting any singer....
> why would anybody introduce competition in his own business?
i know that competition is important for one`s progress. but lata had set her parameters and she surpassed them.
(it was lata mangeshkar`s brother,hridaynath, who introduced anuradha paudwal in marathi film music in 1975. she sang duet with asha.

3. she remixed the old songs of great musicians.
>>> lata ,if you insist, remixed those songs. but after completing 50 years of playback singing career. she did not take advantage of remixing them in early years,when her voice was even more fresh.
she had worked with most of them for many years and was respected and encouraged by all of them.they had all passed away and it was tribute to them. also no beats or tunes were changed during recording.(remixes often hurt the beauty of song)

4. about not feeling anything:
> how could anyone sing thousand songs and get immersed in every emotion? it was her job to sing and she did. beautifully too, if may say so. beacuse those songs have been approved and liked by population more than 30-40 crore.
also being not married,she would not know the emotions felt by married lady , a widow or a mother.


LATA MANGESHKAR has worked with three generations and seen the changes that took place in industry. she has always behaved herself,by not getting into word-wars, false comments.

Hi Rahul:

I am glad that you are going through the past articles and updating yourself. No sarcasm here...I mean it...except that it ends up as hard work for us:)

Some quick replies...
1. All women who are worshipped as deities rather than humans...they are in a sense forcefully removed from reality.
2. As an icon, one could voice the concerns of the segment it represents and benefits from. Not many women can say that Lata M is their role model.
3. Good!
4. By stories, i ddi not mean fiction...
5, etc...it is nearing 2 am....so yes, i expect her to do all that you think i do....now what can you do about my wanting to do this...this sounds horrid, I know, but ...thanks for your response:)

VAR:

I think you agree with most of what I have said....I have not implied that Mudgal is anywhere near her...I knwo that picturisations of songs are not her job, but surely she reads the lyrics? And then I do not like the high ground adopted.

Thanks,
F

Dear Madam,

I have some comments on your well-detailed article on Lata Mangeshkar.

You may not hear her sing “Choli ke peecche” or “Sarkaiylo khatiya”, but she did lend >her voice to a semi-nude Mandakini beneath a waterfall in Ram Teri Ganga Maili.


I do not think Lata can really be blamed for the picturization of the songs of Satyam Shivam Sundaram or Ram Teri Ganga Maili. The picturization of a song is not in the hands of the singer. It should be noted that the songs of Ram Teri Ganga Maili or Satyam Shivam Sundaram are nowhere as vulgar or lyrically unimaginative as ``choli ke peeche kya hai``. On those grounds, I disagree with the point you made above. You also suggest that Lata was an inspiration for SSS. I somehow fail to see what connection this has with the point you raised. Also, I would say that it was somehow unfair of Raj Kapoor to have declared Lata as an inspiration for that film. Looks were never her strongest point, but Lata Mangeshkar was never really an ``ugly`` looking lady as he has portrayed Zeenat Aman in that film.


She has often objected to remixed versions of old songs, but no one could question her >for bringing out a series of the all-time male greats. Of course, it was smartly titled >Shraddhanjali, a tribute!


I found Lata`s singing in Shradhhanjali (especially Volume 2) to be quite sub-par. Nevertheless there is a difference between singing for remix albums and paying tributes to the greats by re-singing their songs in their original form. Remix albums often do not contain any mention of the names of the original composers or singers at all. Par exemple, the song ``woh chali woh chali`` in an album by the Bombay Vikings is a direct lift from R D Burman`s ``main chali main chali`` in Padosan, a beautiful Lata-Asha duet. I personally see nothing wrong in Lata cutting those Shraddhanjali albums, as she had expressly mentioned the names of the original composers and singers, except that her voice quality had degraded significantly by the time she did it (due to age) and she was unable to do adequate justice to the songs she chosen in rememberance of her seniors anc contemporaries. As an aside, there was an album by Asha Bhosle entitled Kashish released in the late 80s, wherein she has sung 8-10 songs originally rendered by Noorjehan. Asha had however done a marvellous job!

I also disgaree with your claim that Lata`s voice did not suit Suchitra Sen or Meena Kumari. I would consider that quite a stretch considering the number of songs Lata has rendered for these actresses. I nowhere find any mismatch or any inability on Lata`s part to ``adapt`` to the voice of the heroines of the yester-years. In fact, Lata`s renditions of the songs in Chitralekha, Pakeezah and other movies suit Meena Kumari`s image inch for inch, note for note. Whenever I listen to ``sansaar se bhaage phirte ho....`` from Chitralekha, I cannot help imagine Meena Kumari on screen, mocking the sadhu in the film, decrying celibacy and extolling material desire and lust! And it may be noted that this defiant lyrics has not an atom of vulgarity, either in composition, or in singing, or in picturization. Eroticism sans vulgarity!

And while a classical singer like Shubha Mudgal can popularise her music by making it >accessible to the listeners of today, Lata Mangeshkar rues the fact that despite her >training (the glimpses of which we get in the mudkis, which any accomplished gavaiya can >manage) she has not been able to bring out any album of classical music. What prevented >her? Her days of trying to get a foothold are long over, she could dictate terms, she has >been doing all the riyaaz. So what was it? Fear?


While Shubha Mudgal`s vocal skills are undeniable, it should be noted that she has not acquired a position anywhere equivalent to Lata`s. This is true for Subha Mudgal`s ventures in both classical and light music. Basically, I would say that it is totally upto an artist to choose to venture into a new domain of music. Lata, Asha, Rafi etc were all singers of film music and light classical music. Pure Hindustani classical is a different ball game altogether requiring a totally different kind of training and practice. It is therefore not surprising to see that none of these artistes ever went the pure classical way. Lata has however sung light classical songs in films of various languages, and has also cut truly memorable albums such as the ones featuring Meera Bhajans, pieces from the Gita, ghazals of Mirza Ghalib and her memorable Marathi bhavgeet. There is also a wonderful bhajan album featuring both Lata and Bhimsen Joshi together. It is entitled ``Raam Shyaam GuN Gaan``. She has alos lent her voice recently to a collection of Marathi natyasangeet.

Thanks!

Hi Farzana,
I really could not make out a single valid journalistic point behind this article.
Lets see the points that you have tried to make-
1-``If for a moment we forget that she represents the voice of India, then we can see that Lata Mangeshkar also personifies the Indian obsession with the woman on a pedestal.``
I really cant figure about what obsession are you talking about.Can you give a few more examples?
2-``Is it not the responsibility of icons to not merely be symbols of their own individual achievements but to project them onto a section of society?``
Is it really,Who makes this decision? Isn`t she touching the society by practising her art? What else do you want her to do?
3-``Her finesse touched you, not the feelings. ``
I would not argue with that, though I would beg to differ.I wouldn`t argue, because it is just your opinion.And when I beg to differ , it is also just my opinion and very subjective
4-``There are stories about how budding careers (from Suman Kalyanpur, Sudha Malhotra, Vani Jairam to Anuradha Paudwal, Sulakshana Pandit) were nipped..``
Yes, there were stories.At best , they are hearsay. There also have been stories about how Amitabh Bachchan plotted to kill Parveen Babi.
5-``And her soul has been carefully cultivated for public consumption. ``
How exactly did you lead to that statement? It sounds horrid, but thats not why I object to that.It seems to have been pulled out of the air. If she has sound business sense, it should not be held against her. And even if Raj Kapoor told her that she was singing for scantliy clad heroines, what was she supposed to do? Ask him to make them wear more clothes?
6-``It was this that made Muzaffar Ali choose Asha Bhosle for Umrao Jaan.`` I am a fan of Asha Bhosle.I hear more songs of Asha than I do of Lata.Lata Mangeshkar might not have been suited for ghazals.If thats your point, I agree to that.
7-``Look at it closely and it is so regressive..``
``What do women ever get for the sacrifices they make?``.
If I get it right, you are blaming her for regressive lyrics. And probably for the state of women too.
8-``How can one identify with a woman in starchy white with the voice of a child? ``
Why do you want to identify with her, pray? And what would she have to do to enable you to identify with her?
Finally,I think it is you who are trying to judge her as a woman on a pedestal. Expecting her to ``project her achievements onto a section of society``, being equally good in all genres, promoting singers, taking a stand against semi nude heroines and doing something for all womankind. I wonder whether she deserves to be judged in such a way. She is among the best singers that we have had, period.If she wants to live her life privately, I dont see what the problem anyone should have with that.

Thanks
Rahul

Lata answers some of the questions:


With time everything is forgotten: Lata Mangeshkar

IANS

MUMBAI: She begins a diamond jubilee year on Sunday, but the goddess of melody Lata Mangeshkar is still going strong.

In person, the simplicity of the gentle, fun-loving childlike diva takes you by surprise. For one whose icon status was ensured three decades ago, Lata Mangeshkar wears no airs.

In an interview with IANS, she spoke of living life to the hilt but said ``there`s nothing special`` about this birthday.

Q: How does it feel to be 75?

A: In my opinion there`s nothing special about this birthday. I`ve only got older. However there`s such a huge function planned. People will come...But it`ll be forgotten after two days. With time everything is forgotten.

It`s all due to God`s and my parents` blessings. Until my health permits, I`d continue to sing. I`m bonded with music for life. Also, I`d love to do more social service. Our hospital in Pune is a step in that direction. There are provisions for every kind of treatment. Yes, it`s perhaps one of the largest private hospitals in the country. We`ve named it Dinanath Mangeshkar Hospital (after her father).

Q: `Beti hoti to aisi` (A daughter should be like this).

A: (Laughs shyly) But shall I tell you the truth? The person who should get all the credit for this dream project`s realisation is my brother Hridayanath. He always retreats and lets me and others bask in the limelight.

Q: In your long career you`ve helped innumerable singers and composers to find a foothold. Do you feel let down by them?

A: Not at all. Why should I expect anything in return? God has given me so much. It`s my duty to help others if I can. However, one incident that pained me has to do with a music director whose career has faded away.

When some years ago he contacted my secretary for my dates, my secretary said the music director would have to wait for a while. This music director turned around and said: ``Gone are the days when composers and producers would wait for her. No one waits any longer.`` My secretary fell quiet. When he told me about this, I told him to just forget it.

Anyway that composer whom incidentally I had in a way brought into the industry faded away soon.

Q: But it`s true that composers used to wait for weeks and months for your dates.

A: Yes, it was well-known in the film industry that if I went out of Mumbai or was unwell, composers waited for weeks, sometimes months, to record their songs. And among the waiting ones Shankar-Jaikishan was No 1.

Then there was Madan Mohan Bhaiyya. Sometimes he was under a lot of pressure to record my song in another voice when I wasn`t available. I remember once when I told him to go ahead and use another voice for a film whose producer couldn`t afford to wait, Madan Bhaiyya said: ``I compose songs with you in mind. Never say no to me.``

Those days composers and singers worked as a team. Today I`m not too keen to sing for films.

Q: What do you have to say about today`s film songs?

A: I suppose they serve their function. If we look back we may feel nostalgic. In those days there used to be 30-40 very gifted and popular composers. Since every composer had his own unique style, there was a great deal of variety.

Today there are only a handful of top-notch composers -- A R Rahman, Anu Malik, Jatin Lalit...

Q: But in spite of the falling standards you continue to get lovely songs to sing, don`t you?

A: I`m fortunate. It isn`t as if every song nowadays is bad. Sometimes I do catch snatches of tunes I like. But don`t ask me to name them. I don`t ever listen to my own songs, let alone those sung by others (laughs).

But I loved Rahman`s music in ``Lagaan``. The duet that my sister Asha has sung ``Madhuban Mein Jo Kanhaiya`` is lovely. Then there was ``Ghanan Ghanan`` and my ``Bhajan O Paalan Haare``. Since the film is set during the British period the music has a flavour of the past. ``Lagaan`` is an indication that film music is bound to improve.

Q: Are you 75 or 25?!

A: (Laughs) I`m just lucky. The last one year has been very eventful. I got the Bharat Ratna. Then we constructed the hospital in Pune. For that we held a charity show in Pune that was quite an event. After the catastrophe in Gujarat I returned from London for a charity show. I was glad I was of some use.

We did manage to collect a little money. What really made me happy was that singers like Suresh Wadkar, Alka Yagnik, Sadhana Sargam, Sudesh Bhosle, Udit Narayan and Kumar Sanu made an effort to be part of the charity concert. I consider it a personal favour. I wasn`t here to invite them personally.

My sister Usha invited them. But they all turned up, so did Hrithik Roshan and Amitji (Amitabh Bachchan). That I still command so much respect really means a lot to me.

Q: In spite of match-fixing do you still remain a cricket fan?

A: I`m a fan of the game, not necessarily the players. I love tennis as well. Whether it`s Pakistan playing against India or England against Australia I don`t care. I`ve my favourite cricket players like Sachin Tendulkar.

I used to be a fan of Sunil Gavaskar. I know them all from my earlier days. I still watch the matches. There`s only one difference. Earlier I watched them at the stadium. Now I watch them at home on television.

rsridhar #15/various....

Lata (and Asha) have been rather consistently be-suraa and more importantly, be-taal,
in recent times (the last 10 years, at least). Doesn`t detract from their past greatness, though.

Farzana, 27

“how would you go about thanking the baker if I `picked` a good one?”

> I’ll find out where you got it from, personally go there and thank the baker for baking such wonderful cakes that invite someone like you, and shop my cakes from there henceforth...

“I may as well bake that cake myself”

> Please, by all means...I’d love to try that...but beware...I could be brutal in my assessment...or patronizing...it`d all depend...on the cake, of course...

“I choose the ones who let me eat and have it too”

> What’s the point in having a cake if you can’t eat it?

“no comments about my taste in music?”

> It’s impeccable...needs no comment...however, I wish your scale wasn’t tilted so heavily towards melancholy...I like jovial better...or at least an even scale...

So I’m “digression”! I’ll take that as “diversion”...!!!

I think Lata was too busy being a great singer and a great businesswoman to find time to be a great person or a role model.
which is okay by me. I would want to sing like Lata but not be like her. There is Mother Theresa for that.

btw, just like all black people sing exactly in the same way, how come most indian singers sing mostly like Lata ?
( exception is the new bhumra bhumra girl )

farzanaji``
``but to suggest that because she helped her family it is ok to botch up other people`s careers does not quite gell.``
No, it doesn`t and I didn`t - or at least didn`t intend to - suggest that!
I didn`t see Saaz but have read about the sibling rivalry. Perhaps, Lata wanted Asha to succeed but not to become her rival.

dost-mittarji (#21):
Yeh kya kar diya aapne? Of course, being a Lata fan is one thing, but to suggest that because she helped her family it is ok to botch up other people`s careers does not quite gell.

Would Asha have risen to those heights had Lata stood in her way? Asha did not have it easy...have you seen Sai Paranjpye`s `Saaz`, a veiled script on the sibling rivalry?

Re. my bringing in Madonna and Britney in here, the point I was trying to make is that they have been reinventing themselves. As have Asha and Shubha Mudgal. Sure, I would prefer a Girija Devi or Kishori Amonkar, but that is purely for their music, though the latter`s nakhras have put me off.

Of course Mirza Ghalib was not composed by Naushad, I realised it too late. Thanks for pointing it out.

mumbaikar (#24):
Am not a fan of raunchy videos, though I do not mind if remixes are done well...but if I have access to the originals, why would I listen to the imitations?

yogiraj (#25):
One more major gaffe...you are right. `Mamta` is a Roshan composition.
About being discreet...well, I am not too conversant with rumours.
Your comment about my being biased on other issues, look at it this way...you agree with me on this one therefore I do not appear biased. A bias, like truth itself, is relative.

---

Digression:
godot (#23):

[I`ll thank you for being...well...you...but I`d still thank the baker if the cake is well made. And when am I getting that cake from you...hope you pick a good baker...]
Heck, I may as well bake that cake myself...just curious...how would you go about thanking the baker if I `picked` a good one? (Don`t just hope, be certain of that...my taste in bakers is impeccable -- I choose the ones who let me eat and have it too...).

Btw, no comments about my taste in music?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

FV,

One of your best.

I too started thinking, and still do, you are biased. But on this one I have to back off.

I do disagree with many of your premises. But I cannot call you biased.

This is what I have been listening about Lataji for quite few years. Many of my own would have agreed with your positions long back. They have been doing it for last few years anyway.. Even before your article

Lataji did stiffle, as far as I know, competition. But look at the quality of what she was up against. She could very easily get away with it. Why?, She was and is the best.

Lataji was not puritan. She was discreet. Does Ramachandra Chitalkar or Rajsingh Dungarpur mean anything?.

One small grudge. Was ``Mamta`` Madanmohanji`s?

I always thought it was Roshiji. May be I am wrong.

Yogiraj patil

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Farzana, 19

``If I sent you a cake, would you thank me or the baker?``

I`ll thank you for being...well...you...but I`d still thank the baker if the cake is well made. And when am I getting that cake from you...hope you pick a good baker...

``isn’t it ironic that men turn out to be what they are despite being born of women?``

Touche!

Hi, A good effort! I do not rate Lata as a better singer than Asha. Asha is more versatile. Taking about emotions, with an Asha song you can feel the emotions in her renditions. Somehow you miss that quality in Lata, ( unless its a Madan Mohan composition ). The other thing I have noticed that with age, Lata`s voice has deteriorated, whereas Asha`s has improved.

FarzanaVersey#19:
My previous post might have given the impression that I am not a fan of Lata. I am and big time! I love bhajans (more than the faithful!) and I think that when Lata sings bhajans, Sarswati herself is present in her voice (Pakistanis wont understand this but who cares:-)). I could listen to her `Ae ree main tau prem diwaani` for hours without getting bored. Just last night, in my car an old song of her was playing (Sapna ban saajan aaye, hum dekh dekh muskaaye!) and I kept replaying it three times.
But yes, Geeta Dutt`s rendering of Preetam aan milo was really moving. If you read my `Two phases of Indian Secularism` you would have noticed that I just saw Mr. and Mrs. 55. Guru Dutt picturised that song in a really moving way.
But it is her personality we are discussing. One wonders if Asha would have risen to the heights she did if Lata had tried to block her the way she did others. And her arrogance did help Asha when she refused to sing for OP Nayar or when she had a fight with SD Burman. It also helped Vani Jairam, to some extent, when she refused to sing for Ravi Shankar in the Meera film (on the grounds that she would be competing against her previous Meera songs). Asha, too, was quite tough on her opponents. OP Nayar, who had an affair with Asha, has said in an interview that he stopped using Geeta after Asha Bhosle threw a fit, although he thought that Geeta`s voice was more suited to her music than Asha`s (as is evident from the songs of Aar Paar and Mr and Mrs 55). BTW Geeta also sang `tum jiyo hazaaron saal`,
And Lata did try to help at least her family. She tried to promote her brother Hridaynath and sisters Usha and Meena but without much success.
If Madonna or Britanny Spears are your ideas of role models, I am glad Lata did not become one! Maybe Lata knows her limitations, which should be considered a virtue, in my opinion. And I dont understand in what way Asha Bhosle and Shubha Mudgal (btw,you should hear her in a purely classical concert if you get a chance!) are more of a role model than Lata.

BTW the music of Mirza Ghalib was not by Naushad but by Ghulam Ahmad. And the qawwaali you were trying to remember, I think, was `hamen to loot liya mil ke husn waalon ne`.

One reason I have not compared Lata with contemporary singers is because the style of recording has changed. The track system is being followed and life is different in the days when the keyboardists rule and camouflage flaws. The comparison with Nusrat Fateh Ali does not fit for other reasons, just as one cannot compare her with Reshma. Noorjehan`s old songs (the only ones Indians can relish) are remembered by aficionados even today. ``Kya mil gayaa bhagwan mere dil ko dukhaake armaanon ki nagree mein meri aag lagaake...``...``Badnaam mohabbat kaun karein, iss ishq ko ruswaa kaun karein...`` It is said that had Noorjehan not migrated to Pakistan, Lata would not have reached where she is. Since I did not keep track of the former`s work later, I cannot comment, but would like to be enlightened.

Lata can never be called besuraa...it is just that I like `character` in anything aesthetic. Which is why I prefer the fort at Fatehpur Sikri to the Taj Mahal. Each to their own.

Those not conversant with music from South India, the singer Yesudas, a Christian, is one of the best bhajan singers in temples there (though there was some controversy which died down). For those conversant with Hindi film music, his songs from `Chit Chor` are marvellous. Incidentally, I believe that it is down South that music directors broke the mould of the star singer system, with Ilayaraja and A. R. Rehman concentrating on the characterisation that I spoke about in the earlier post. The latter gave Lata one of her most memorable songs in recent times, ``Jiya Jale...`` (`Dil Se`).

Thanks for the comments, vignettes, additions, disagreements. Sure, I have missed out on several Lata/various heroine combinations, but then they constitute the minutiae to what one was trying to convey.

It’s true that I have praised and critiqued Lata Mangeshkar in equal measure, because that is how I feel about her. There is the singer and then there is the icon, so there is bound to be ambivalence in judging these two aspects. There is no question of whose side I am on. That is such a simplistic way of looking at things. Can one not analyse other aspects of such a famous persona?

godot:
[Isn`t it true--and quite ironic--that all those songs you attribute “as the voice of women” were written by males?]
Yes, life is full of ironies…isn’t it ironic that men turn out to be what they are despite being born of women? :)

[Isn`t it hypocrisy to give credit to a person for moving her lips to sound emotions expressed by someone else?]
Nah. If I sent you a cake, would you thank me or the baker?

dostmittarji:
Shukriya…for understanding the spirit of what was being said and of course the generous comments (thank god you did not use a term like “exquisitely woven” or else you too might have been dragged into the league of angels:)

Khair…yaad taaza kar di aapne, especially regarding film qawwalis. I agree that Manna Dey and Amir Khan saab were far superior to Mohammed Rafi in those qawwalis. That has been the problem when I talk of hegemony. The film makers and music directors just did not care about the importance of voice characterisation; too much emphasis was placed on voice quality. It is a known fact that the lady would boycott anyone who chose someone else. I think only O.P.Nayyar came out openly and said that her voice did not suit his music. And he did not become any the less for choosing Asha. And Naushad did a great service to cinema by letting Suraiya sing in ‘Mirza Ghalib’, not because she had a great voice but because naturally her own voice sat well on her and as a woman singing in the male ‘voice’ her perennial sulkiness worked well (that woman made even ‘Tu mera chaand, main teri chaandni’ sound like a maatum number!). Back to qawwalis, I don’t remember where, but I had seen this B-grade film called ‘Putlibai’ about the dacoit, and there was this Yusuf Azad and his wife (forget her name) qawwali…a grand feminist tussle. Loved it. And this was an old film.

Thanks for correcting me on the ‘Shraddhanjali’ not being only a tribute to male singers. I have taken out my copy and I am dreading the thought of listening to her rendition of my Geeta Dutt numbers.

[But I do not agree with your basic premise that an artist owes it to the society to do more than give his/her best to the art. If they can, sone pay suhaaga, but not everyone can do it. Some can and did, like Sunil Dutt and Shabana Aazmi; others tried and failed, like Amitabh Bachan. And how do we know that Lata even believes in the empowerment of women?]
I know one is expecting too much here, but I was not referring to activism. In fact when she was criticised for not taking an active part as a member of the Rajya Sabha, I saw one positive thing here: she had refused the government perks, which was wonderful.

When I talk about rising above one’s position, I mean being a role model. To take an example, isn’t Madonna a role model to millions? She is not doing much as an activist, but her persona conveys something and women do feel her presence. Even a Britney Spears contributes with her version of iconoclasm. In India, I do believe that Asha Bhosle works as a role model, as does Shubha Mudgal. And they are not social activists.

Btw, Lataji has said that she loves singing bhajans the most. Have you heard M.S. Subbulakshmi’s Meera rendition? Divine. And I do not think anyone can touch Rafi’s “Man tadpat Hari darshan ko aaj…” (‘Baiju Baawra’) as yet is film bhajans. Or Geeta Dutt’s “Preetam aan milo…” in terms of its sufiana andaaz.

ajeet:
[Do I detect a tinge of jealousy in your criticism, although I do not know why. Were you ever a budding singer?]
This is funny, but then when I had written a critical piece on Sachin, I got letters saying I was jealous because he had got a Ferrari! My reply to them was that I preferred the Porsche…to which I got counter responses saying that only an elitist type could talk like this. I guess, it is tough to take a perspective that is a bit different from the one you have been accustomed to. If at all I were an aspiring singer, then I would not have had words of praise for any female singer. And anyway, my voice quality is different – a lot of body and raw appeal (in short, completely untrained)!

[You critcise her by the wording of the songs she sang. Why? Would you take Amzad Khan`s role in `Sholey` and critcise him for the role he played.]
That one song I mentioned…there was self-criticism in it as well. It is about the conflict women face.

[None of the names you mentioned come to any where close to her talent.]
This is a personal opinion, and we differ.

temporal:
I have responded to the activism aspect in my post to dostmittarji. The only song I recall is “Tum jiyo hazaaron saal hai meri yeh arzoo…happi burday to you, happi burday dear Sunita happi burday to youuuuu” sung by Rafi. Am sure you had something else in mind!

Yes, there is a Lata song at every turn…filhaal, there is one which I feel closest to…
“Na milta ghum tau barbaadi ke afsaane kahaan jaatey
agar duniya chaman hoti tau veerane kahaan jaatey
chalo achha hua apnoun mein koi ghair tau niklaa
agar hotey sabhi apney tau beghaane kahaan jaatey.”

F

rozaiba#14

[Some classical music enthusaist claim she`s `baysuree` :) ]

... maybe your classical enthusiast is better qualified than ustad baRe ghulam ali khan, who is reported to have said in one of the articles quoted here by the writer of this piece.....
[“Kambakht besura gaati hi nahin]....take your pick;)

[the lady as she turns 75 on September 28.]

rediff.com says..
[On September 28, she turns a glorious 74.
Join rediff.com as we celebrate Lata Mangeshkar and her rich legacy of music.]

...some one is wrong here. as for as the singer is concerned, are you paying tribute to her as a singer or are you trying to analyze her as a person. for a layman like me lata has been synonymous with play back singing and in that field there is no match for lata either before or after her arrival into the film industry. while cricizing her for singing songs which you find regressive, perhaps you are not aware that verses were penned by various poets according to situation in the film and lata had no control over the radeef, qafia or any thing else, she was there to sing and sing she did to the best of her capacity. you can`t ask more than that from any one.

rsridhar #15,

why are you taking criticism of Lata as anti-Indian?

everyone has a different opinion of good and great.

re:#14 by rozaiba
Many find Nusrat Fateh Ali Besura. For a layperson like me, he seems to be making a lot of throaty, gurgly noises.
Lata has sung some songs which are clearly out of this world. I cannot even begin to count how much hits she has produced over the years. That she has such a huge following even in an enemy country like Pakistan is a testimony to her talent and popularity. Compared to her, hardly anyone in India has heard of Noorjehan`s popular numbers.
Sridhar

Lata`s a good singer. But she`s hardly `technically` profecient. Some classical music enthusaist claim she`s `baysuree` :)

re: #12

{...you are boring, predictible and delusional}

*yawn*

re#11:

...you are boring, predictible and delusional ...as i told you as recently as sep 25:

``...now you are becoming delusional...

(delusion: Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.) ``

...t

re: t

...awww, t`s agitated now...he`s no longer `exquisitely woven`...hahahahaha

ps to # 5:

...am not sure if Nur Jehan sung that ...i may have been mixing up the songs...however the wish and intent is clear...may she live long!...

#6:

...whining again?...lataji is being praised and discussed here not you!...

...if you cannot say anything in praise of lataji go to Guess Who...and whine all you can...

...t

http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00003302

Down south people take hero worship a little further.

We often see FIRST names like kennedy, Nixon, Jefferson, Stalin, lenin, Bhagatsingh, Chandrabose, Nehru, Gandhi, etc.

A friend of mine told me about how his father initally named his first child (friend`s elder sister) as `Latamangeshkar`...before someone advised him for the better.

Now she`s just Lata!

I don`t know how one could call her `failed`; as a playback singer there`s nothing left to say about her success, and there`s no reason to suppose she ever aspired to be anything more than that - a mother India or a social reformer... whatever.

As for promoting other singers, she didn`t even promote her own sisters, so why should she do it for others, who in terms of talent were nothing compared to her...

And regressive lyrics, you`re talking of movies (and songs) made a long time ago, and no one used that word in those days... the screen was stiff with self sacrificing heroines and weeping doormats... remember that scene from Patita where Dev Anand tells (not asks!) the heroine (Usha?) that he has `decided` to marry her and she immediately falls at his feet saying `aapke charanon mein jagah chahiye` ... both amusing and disgusting to watch nowadays but presumably did not raise any hackles back then...

and btw, what about Sadhana... what a combination that was... of Lata and Sadhana and Madanmohan... Woh Kaun Thi, Mera Saaya... `Lag Jaa Gale` ... `Nainon Mein Badra Chaaye` to mention only two... delicious.

re: t

{exquisitely woven}

...how corny can you get?...like a high school freshman exerting too hard to sound eloquent....

bund ba`her say m’ri zaat ka da’r hay mujh maiN
maiN nahiN khood maiN, yeh ik aam khabar hay mujh maiN

ik a’jub aamad o shood hay kay naa maazi hay naa haal hay
Jon, barpa kai nas’louN ka safar hay mujh main

---

Jon Elia (1920? -2003)

---

ferzi:

…a exquisitely woven tribute to the all time diva of popular Hindustani music in truly ferzana fashion …

…we grew up listening to the mellifluousness of lata, rafi and asha...not questioning them…

...being an activist or nurturning social conscience was not the norm then…nor is it perhaps now…despite shabana azmi, sunil dutt, imran khan, abrar ul haque…

...jaisa kay aap nay ar’z kiya hay zindagi kay her mOR per humaiN lataji ka koi na koi gana apnay husbay haal mil jata hay…aur youN woh humari khooshi aur fasurdgi ki humshareek hojati haiN…

...if I were a `dj` I would play her didi Noor JehaN’s haunting rendering of “tum joog joog jiyo hazaaroN saal…” for her 75th birthday today...

bbspnd,

t

Farzana

Isn`t it true--and quite ironic--that all those songs you attribute ``as the voice of women`` were written by males? Isn`t it hypocrisy to give credit to a person for moving her lips to sound emotions expressed by someone else?

PS: For the record, I do think that Lata has a most wonderful voice.

Farzana

Do I detect a tinge of jealousy in your crticism, although I do not know why. Were you ever a budding singer?

You critcise her by the wording of the songs she sang. Why? Would you take Amzad Khan`s role in `Sholey` and critcise him for the role he played.

Yes, Lata ruled the film industry for decades and not many female singers were able to compete, but that is the way things happen. None of the names you mentioned come to any where close to her talent.

She is not a social reformer or a leader. She is a playback singer and she is peerless in that.

Dear Farzana:
This is a masterpiece: irreverent, provocative, iconoclastic!
Behind the honeyed voice and a cultivated personnae of humility, modesty, grace and elegance lies a ruthless personality which paid put to many a budding career.
But Lata is only a voice, howsoever sweet and melodious - she gave voice to the lips of beautiful heroines singing songs written by talented lyricists and put to music by gifted musicians. When this didn`t happen, she failed. An example was a tributary album brought out with great fanfare during Ghalib`s centenary in 1967. Ghalib`s ghazals, set to music by her brother Hridaynath, sounded more like bhajans than ghazals and fell totally flat.

You are right about Lata not being the best at Qawaalis, Asha is better (Jee chaahata hai choom loon apni nazar ko main/Nigahen milaane ko jee chaahata hai!) as was Noor Jehan (Aahen naan bahrin shikawe naa kiye!). But in films it is the hero/heroine who has to win. Thus, Mohammad Rafi won over Manna Day (Naa to kaarvaan ki talaash hai) and even Aamir Khan (O` duniya ke rakhwaale:Baiju Baawra).

You made a small error wrt Lata`s shradhanjali, it was not restricted to male singers and have included Zora Bai Ambalvi and Geeta Dutt (my all time favourite!).

But I do not agree with your basic premise that an artist owes it to the society to do more than give his/her best to the art. If they can, sone pay suhaaga, but not everyone can do it. Some can and did, like Sunil Dutt and Shabana Aazmi; others tried and failed, like Amitabh Bachan. And how do we know that Lata even believes in the empowerment of women?

`Diva as Devi` by Farzana Versey in Chowk of 28 September,2003made me puzzled.I could not figure out whose side Farzana is on?Some time she praises Lata and some time she criticizes her.Beyond doubt there has never been nor will there be any singer like Lata again.
I am,like millions,one of her ardent fan and to a certain point,I tend to agree with farzana that Lata did,perhaps,discourage other singers like Suman Kalyanpur,Sulakshana,Vani etc to get further in their careers.I have met Lata and found her very modest.I interviewed Sulakshana Pandit who was naturally disappointed at not achieving what she deserved yet she was not critical of Lata.I could, however,sense that she was carefully avoiding a direct reference to Lata.

I said to Lata that I only admire three people in the Indian Film Industry-yourself,Naushad and Dilip Kumar.Of -course I have great regard to top class indian actresses like Meena Kumari,Nutan,Nargis etc but I regard Lata as my most favourite artiste.