Kashmir from the Left

ahmedmadani #59

{{Indian dream is to cut sindh from Pakistan and then for ``sindh`` sake pump water in Ravi, biyas and satlaj and carry down south and portion of ot to sindh entering sindh near under border od Sindh and Punjab. So punjab will be denied water.}}

Sahib, you have correctly divined the diabolical Hindians` true intent. Our plan in fact is to resurrect the dried-up sacred Saraswati by diverting water from the Sindhu.

NazarHayatKhan #48: “You ask pointed questions. And my replies invariably border on treason. Manto has already scared the hell out me by plonking ``Wanted`` posters all over Chowk ; and I am reluctant to interact so freely as earlier. Anyway.”

Rest assured, I have not intention of putting up wanted posters of you. I am more interested in getting your point of view on the issue. Usually, the correct answers to national problems are a combination of everyone’s point of view.

At the same time, I was expecting a much more detailed answer from you, and a much better analysis. Primarily, since you are probably the only one on Chowk, who has actually fought a war. That, if you ask me, is, in and of itself, a Ph.D. Also, since you are quite critical (perhaps correctly) of the outdated military strategies taught in Pakistan’s defence colleges. I do not know, since I never attended those Colleges. But, if you are critical of them, then as a rule – one that I follow myself – you have to be able to come up with something better then they provide.

So once again, I will ask you the same questions:

a) India is carrying out a massive arms build-up, with offensive weapons specifically targeted at Pakistan. How should Pakistan counter that? Why is India purchasing such weaponry? And how exactly can Pakistan get India on its side, when India is going out of its way to militarily dominate the whole region. For starters, how would you get Pakistan to get India to stop its arms purchases, and its nuclear buildup? If it doesn’t stop then what should Pakistan do?

Your answer was,

“Do we worry about US arms build up or China`s arms build up? India comes No. 3 in that sequence.”

This does not appeal to me. Since the USA and China are not buying weapons specifically to target Pakistan. They have other interests, and other battles. Even Canada and Mexico are not worried about USA’s arms build up, because they know those arms are targeted elsewhere. The USA is not using those arms to dominate the foreign policies of Canada and Mexico. But, if you take a tank by tank analysis of India’s new purchases, they can only be used against Pakistan.


b) India, as a country, has gone thru an ideological change. It is now well on its way to Hinduvta. Hinduvta has a Hindu vision for all of South Asia, with or without Kashmir. It maybe nice to speak Punjabi with Indian Sikhs, but that is only a tiny part of India. In the overall scheme of things, Hinduvta does not have any room for Muslims. Should Pakistan be concerned about that?

Wherever the BJP/RSS has had a chance it has killed/sidelined even Muslims of its own country. And Indian courts have not held them responsible. If the current ideology of India does not ever cater for its own Muslims, how in the world will it cater for Pakistani Muslims? Would it not be interested in running them over, regardless of how friendly Pakistanis try to be? If not, then why is it running over its own Muslims, who are citizens of the country, it is ruling?

So, while it sounds nice to say that Pakistan should try to make friends with India, friendship has to be from both sides. Or not? What do you think?

Some of the biggest wars in the world have occurred when one side was trying to make friends, while the other side was arming itself to the teeth. My study of history has indicated that poor countries, buying massive offensive weaponry, do it under a certain plan. They don’t buy for decoration. They want to dominate a certain portion of the world. Defensive weaponry is a different issue.

India can never dominate anything other than South Asia – if that. It cannot dominate all of Asia, with China, Russia and Japan sitting there. It certainly cannot dominate the world, with the USA and China sitting there. This leaves it with South Asia. Hence its role in the world, is not really much different than that of Pakistan. Both work in the same domain, i.e. South Asia. That is the border of their influence. When countries try to militarily dominate a domain, they only do so if they know they can use their military power, to gain economic benefits, by influencing the policies of other countries, e.g. USA uses its military to influence the foreign and domestic policies of oil-rich states, thereby getting a healthy profit on its investment in offensive military. There is absolutely no other reason for an offensive military, anywhere.

So, a Hinduvta ideology, with BJP in power, buying billions of dollars of offensive weaponry, with a sphere of influence limited only to South Asia, specifically targeted at Pakistan, while simultaneously killing its own Muslims (for no reason) is something that just cannot be ignored.

So I would expect an analysis from your side. To just say, “Actually, we have no choice - so the old fires of shared past can be rekindled and a mutually beneficial co-existance can easily be worked out……We should get India on our side,” is a nice feel-good statement. But it is really no better than the simplicity you accuse the various Defence Colleges of providing. They also think with their hearts and not with their minds. Their hearts, stating that Pakistan should fight it out with India. Yours suggesting that Pakistan should just ignore India’s arms build ups.

Both analyses will lead to a war, in my opinion. One is too aggressive and one is too passive. The main analysis should be, on how we get India to disarm. And if they refuse to disarm, then what should we do.

I certainly do not believe in offensive wars. But I am a strong believer in the fact that the best way to avoid war is to ensure that they do not occur in the first place. That can be done by both countries disarming. If that cannot happen, then it can only be done by ensuring a credible defence and an independent foreign policy. Most major wars occur in areas/countries that have no way to defend themselves, e.g. Bangladesh, Vietnam, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Countries that can defend themselves (both economically and militarily) like the USA etc. never get attacked. If India was powerful enough to dominate the world, and was fighting a cold war with the USA (like China is), and it bought a slew of weaponry, then I could understand. However, it can barely compete with Pakistan, and cannot even think of competing with China (more so now, with the booming Chinese economy), so which country will it try to dominate with all its military purchases? And if it is not buying that equipment to dominate Pakistan, then is it buying it for decoration purposes?

Our favorite delusionist ahmedmadani rants:

[quote]
Now they are showing same by naming their submarines `` sindhu Shastra (Arm of sindh), Sindhu beer ( sindi fighter), Sindhu Rakshaka( (protector of Sindh)
[end-quote]

Huh? Which lakshar university did you learn this cr*p from? Needless to say, you will be unable to provide a single factual reference to back it up.

There is a large Sindhi diaspora in India (and abroad) and I am happy to say they remain attached to the Sindhi language. Other than that this nonsense is all part of our troubled mind.

Hi,
Before I touch other issues, let me remind you that Indian military might far out weighs Pakistan`s (refer to old issues of India Today to enlighten yourself). Every one knows who makes misadventures and burns their hands. Weapons procurement and modernization is a continuous process and dont forget, we Indians have another friend, China who is also romantic (though not as much as Pak).
Once in a while pakistan blames all its problems on India. Pak should learn to tackle internal matters in a humane and rational way rather than blaming India. We are least bit interested in your internal affairs.
Wars are not a solution to problems. People suffer during wars and fools glorify them as sacrifices. Hatred makes people blind. Clash should be ideological.
If there is an issue in Kashmir it is one of autonomy and independence and not one of joining Pak. Kashmiris will never fal in the hands of Paki tyranny.
Your low regard for Peace and zeal for the final war will run short of support in Pakistan and I am quite sure about it.

Luv,
Cosmic_Citizen.

ahmedmadani#59:
Even if what you say is true (some is, some not, some maybe!) Pakistan can reverse this situation right away. All it has to do is freeze (not give up, just freeze!) the Kashmir issue and develop normal, friendly relations with India. There is still goodwill in India towards Pakistan and Pakistanis, as was evident from the Baby Noor case and the euphoria in India following Vajpayee`s Lahore visit. Indians (as well as Pakistanis) are a sentimental lot and quite capable of melting their hostility with tears of emotions and joy. If there is no animosity, there wont be any games. Na rahega baans na bajegi baansuri.
India will still continue with its geopolitical ambitions because the hindians believe that, as inheritors of one of the great civilisations (alongwith Pakistan even though it believes it belongs to a different civilization), it is their destiny to be a great power. But, if there is no animosity, Pakistan would not have to worry about India any more than Canada has to worry about the US.

Ref ahmedmadani #59

[There is no Sindhi population but they ( GOI) has translated indian constitution in Sindhi and more and more graduates are learing Sindhi. Even long term goals are clear by naming of military boats. Also calling Indian ocean as ``sindh Sagar``. People show their intest by naming arm system. Like we have Mo. Ghori etc missiles..... Now they are showing same by naming their submarines.... Sindhu beer ( sindi fighter)......]

Sindhu beer? I will drink to that!

[Indian dream is to cut sindh from Pakistan and then for ``sindh`` sake pump water in Ravi, biyas and satlaj and carry down south and portion of ot to sindh entering sindh near under border od Sindh and Punjab. So punjab will be denied water.]

Dear Madani Saheb, under the Indus Water Treaty, India already owns ALL the water of the Ravi, Beas and Sutlej rivers. That is barely enough to irrigate East Punjab. So, don`t worry, we won`t be diverting those waters to Sindh.

ahmadmidani 59,

I wish there were more people like you in pakistan. Pakistan is being progressively isolated from the world. They are not in asean, not in commonwealth, not in saarc even as india has started dealing with conutries seperately. The real economic decline of pakstan will start next year when the textile quotas are abolished. India is planning to target pak markets, now protected by pak quotas.
Ofcourse, pak soldiers will be better off, they can eat cotton instead of grass at the heights of kargill.

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rsridher # 53
harimau # 54

Kashmir issue is still miles & miles away. First there has to be a spell of few years of normal relations - bordering good relations between the two countries before Kashmir can even be discussed.

Then there will be stages, phases & steps. Broadly, I agee with rsridhers break down of stages.

Presently Kashmir is no issue for Pakistani politicians. They are fighting for the supremacy of the parliament and their own say in Pakistani affairs.

Finally, assuming that doves on both sides have gained strength, army is out of power in Pakistan and can be muzzled, Kashmir issue can be touched.

The solution given is only an embroyonic idea - many years away - but it has the ingredients of Kashmiris getting the maximum; and India & Pakistan sacrificing equally.

Even setting a stage for a closer future relationship.

I think India ios preparing for war by buying arms. It is playing waiting game. It is waiting for troubles in pakistan internally and when it happens they will re do ``bangla desh``. It is difficult to predict what game they will play. They are hoping for internal problems. They want to be ready for situation when it is ripe to throw stone. They are financing many ethinic groups in Sindh. They are inflaming Sindhis against Punjabis, through Kalabaugh etc. they have sympathy for pro sindhi nationalist organizations , like JSQM and Jiye sindh. They want the decentralization in Pakistan so authority of General president will diminish. and Sindhi and other nationalist forces will become strong.

One thing they are going to do long term it to cut/ reduce water flowing to Pakistan. The great game is being played with help of Afghans. The present Afghan leader is indophile and he is giving inflamatory speeches aginst pakistan leadership. They will embark on building on Dams on Kaubl river. The canal builds will be similar to any canals , they reduce down stream water. That is game indians playing. They are introducing ideas of building large dams on Kabul river. And Afghans will be happy to utilise water resources. Indian Engineers dam builder are poisoning ears of Northern leadership. The die is cast, its question time. Our country should warn Kabul about dangerous fall out. And General should tell bluntly american puppet and america also to control. We should not accept anything which will damage interest of pakistan.

There is no Sindhi population but they ( GOI) has translated indian constitution in Sindhi and more and more graduates are learing Sindhi. Even long term goals are clear by naming of military boats. Also calling Indian ocean as ``sindh Sagar``. People show their intest by naming arm system. Like we have Mo. Ghori etc missiles. orv our glorification of great brave muslims warriers who plundered India and broke their gods idols as and showed Muslim superiority to hindus. Now they are showing same by naming their submarines `` sindhu Shastra (Arm of sindh), Sindhu beer ( sindi fighter), Sindhu Rakshaka( (protector of Sindh). What they want is to sow seeds of distrust between heartland of pakistan ( Punjab) and sindh. So for that soon they will start building dams on sindhu darya. First will be for storage and elctricity then will start pumping water to south as once you lift water it flows south under gravity. Eight 200 Megawatts Nuclwear Power plants can pump major water of indus up to 15 MAF easily per year. In calculations i only assumed 10 month operation and 2500 meters of lift and assuming rated capacity of plants at 80%. And these lifts will be in stages. This economical in sense it gives water to Hindus and cripples enemy ( Tatics used by turkey against their traditional rivals- iraq and syriya). In this you kill two birds in one stone. !5 MAF lifted at propertimes can hurt agriculture wheat and cotton and secondaly it aggrevates ``water problems`` in Punjab and sindh. I do not think India wants nuclear war as same or more devastation can be achieved by peaceful means. Expected 300 million population will put additional pressure on pakistan. And nationalist centrifugal tendencies will be aggreivated by poverty and animosity in Sindh against punjab. Indian dream is to cut sindh from Pakistan and then for ``sindh`` sake pump water in Ravi, biyas and satlaj and carry down south and portion of ot to sindh entering sindh near under border od Sindh and Punjab. So punjab will be denied water. India is palying dangerous game detrimental to integrity of pakistan.

Unfortunately pakistan is not preparing for war.We must reduce corrouption as on like war is going on. People are not paying taxes, those who can are all cheating by not paying taxes. People should be ready to pay extra taxes if we want kashmir as to raise costs to india we should be able to put little over 1 million fighters. This work can not be left to ``amatures`` in sense they have spirit but no tactics. As indian terrority when we capture then only they will be ready to hand over kashmir. Peace talks is bad as it is lie. Neither we or enemy want peace. Due to this peace movement increases resulting lowering down of spirit of sacrafice and desire to abtain anything by ultimate sacrafice. It is wrong central question of possession of Kashmir will be settled by peace talk or peoples talk. Only war preparation and readyness to final war ( not phony) and ready to sacrafice millions for progress of 100 of millions is done. Russia lost 10% of population in their war. If pakistan is read for that type of staggering losses they similar losses on other side will force hindus to handover Kashmir. If not one shoyuld adopt to india and live as yemen lives or Quait lives in shadow of Iraq. Choice is pakistanis I think general should allow national govt work and accept what they want.

good wishes everybody.

re: cross-border terrorism
It is not just the Indians who are complaining.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=1084842003

``Karzai accuses Pakistan over terrorism

GETHIN CHAMBERLAINDIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT

HAMID Karzai, the Afghan president, yesterday accused Pakistan of harbouring terrorists and undermining his country’s chances of a peaceful future.

In a lecture at the Parliament Hall at St Andrews University, Mr Karzai claimed it was impossible to prevent terrorists returning to Afghanistan unless Pakistan co-operated sincerely with the Afghan government.

And he said governments of countries in the region had to stop using extremism as instruments of policy.

``The co-operation in the anti-terrorist campaign has to be between nation states,`` he said. ``I don’t think that Afghanistan can do much on its own to prevent the resurgence of, the regrouping, the reorganisation, the re-equipment and refinancing of the Taleban without co-operation in the region, and to be more specific, I don’t think we can deter terrorism or stop it rising up again unless Pakistan co-operates with us, sincerely and effectively.``

He said there were religious schools in Pakistan, known as madrasas, where pupils were being schooled in the art of terrorism.

``There are places disguised as madrasas that are teaching explosives, how to use a Kalashnikov, how to plant a bomb, how to be hateful to people, how to spread hatred, how to pass hurt. I have told the Pakistani president that we cannot do without their help and, of course, without the help of the rest of the world.

``On a larger scale it is a regional problem, that governments must stop using extremism as instruments of policy.``

As the United States revealed that one of its soldiers had been killed and two others injured in heavy fighting in southern Afghanistan, Mr Karzai said that terrorism had been foisted on Afghanistan by outside influences, and he accused the rest of the world of ignoring the country’s plight until the events of 11 September, 2001.

``We knew that extremism there, that terrorism there, would reach far beyond Afghanistan. We felt the menace of it and we warned the rest of the world,`` he said.

``It was a brutality unheard of, it was menace unheard of and it was bound to have consequences, as we saw in the twin towers in America, as we saw in the Pentagon, as we saw in Bali, as we saw in the rest of the world.

``We told the rest of the world that is not Afghanistan, that what you see in Afghanistan, the extremism there, the terrorism there, the violence there is not home-grown, it is imported, so please come and free us.``

But he said their pleas were ignored: ``Because we were poor, because we were underdeveloped, because we probably at the time did not have known resources that could be used by the economy of the world, we were not cared about until 11 September occurred.``

He went on: ``The responsibility for what happened in Afghanistan lies really with the international community and primarily with the countries around that part of the world. It was money and encouragement and political desire that brought that about.

``Unfortunately in our part of the world, terrorism is the consequence of extremism used as an instrument of policy.

``But the neglect of it is also not good. Countries in the West cannot absolve themselves of responsibility.

``They should have been foresighted enough to know what the consequences of inactivity would have been.``

Mr Karzai said that terrorism was now being sustained by the cultivation of opium poppies in Afghanistan, and he called for help in ending the trade.

``The heroin that people buy in the streets of London, the money that the British people pay for that will eventually end up in the pockets of the terrorists, will eventually sustain terrorism,`` he said.``
Sridhar

ahmadzai,

Sometime ago on chowk Urstruly said there were no pakistanis in our kashmir. Then later Romair said maybe there are 1% or 2%...but definitely not more than 2%. Now you say it is 25%?!

See...we have reason to worry. More and more pakistanis are coming to our kashmir, No?

- - - - - - - -

You ask why our army is killing all pakistanis? No capture.

You have to thank maulana Azhar for that. Pakistanis in our jails leads to hijack of our planes. This is the lesson we learnt.

Please convey our thanks to maulana sahab.

re:#55 by ahmadzai
I will give a more detailed answer to your post but you are living in another world if you think that Pakistan has stopped Jehad in Kashmir. Not just India but many western powers have verified the fact that infiltrators continue to come into India from across the LOC. America, of late, has been monitoring the LOC thr` high resolution satellite imagery and has come to the same conclusion independently.
Did you read the the posts by arjun_m in this and other forums substantiating the fact that even Americans are sure this is happening. Let us not fool ourselves. We live in times when these infiltrations can be easily verified by modern technology. Pak can only fool its own citizens but cannot convince others that infiltration has stopped or is not happening anymore.

Hello to everybody. I checked in after quite some time. I wish every body well.

I would like to question RSridhar`s step by step methodology:

1. `` When above is done (verified by India and international agencies)``. India itself is a party to the conflict. Even though its Government admitted in 2001 that 75% of insurgency in Indian Occupied Kashmir (IOK) is by indigenous group, it never stops over-blaming Pakistan for infiltration. Since the failure of ceasefire arrangement with HIZb, it refused to mention that there is a genuine problem in IOK. Indian military has never captured a ``cross-border terrorist`` alive. All of them have been claimed to be killed in combats. In a presentation to the Group of foreign observors visiting Baramula region soon after 25 ``cross-border terrorists from Pakistan`` were killed in armed combat, the Indian Army General stated, ``all of them had high tech weaponery, were masters in fighting and were not willing to surrender. We had to kill them all``. Indians blame Pakistan with impunity, but never provide any evidence. How can one be an accuser, jury, judge and executioner all at the same time?

2. Even if Pakistan appeals to the ``Jihadis`` fighting in Kashmir to give up armed resistance, what is the guarantee that they will listen to us? The Mullas of Pakistan, accused by Indians to be the patrons of Jihadis, are giving us a red a*s on many a trevial issues. Why would they listen to us on Kashmiri ``freedom struggle``?

3. Even if the armed resistance is stopped, what is the guarantee that India will admit that it has? Having no problems of the freedom fighters, Indians will easily renege on their earlier commitments like they have historically done. Please recall that the CIA admits that one reason why Pakistan aided the armed resistance in IOK was to force India to make some move on an issue kept in the backburner by Indians.

Pakistan has already declared that it is not supporting any Jihad in IOK from Pakistani soil. The Jihad has, therefore, stopped. Whoever is spreading violence in Kashmir now is a terrorist. There may be terrorists entering into IOK from Pakistan on their individual efforts, Indian military or counter-insurgents. Therefore, Kashmir as a whole may be given to UN forces after Indian military returns to mainland India. The UN forces will then battle out terrorists like they are doing in Afghanistan.

Since Pakistan has already changed its stance on Kashmir Jihad, the first thing now is that an average Indian from a secular democratic and pluralist society stops himself / herself from brain-washing that his / her extremist Government and media is subjecting them to. They should challenge their preconceived notions and come out of tunnel vision. The solution from here onwards is that the Indian military is sent packing and the whole of Kashmir is handed over to UN forces.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #31

[One solution, out of the hundreds available, is to let both the Indian and Pakistani sides of Kashmir merge into one autonomous Kasmir - with both India & Pakistan jointly guarenteeing its external defence.]

If you will recall, this was the situation that existed between August 15, 1947 and maybe August 17, 1947. At that point, Pakistan stopped trade between Pakistan and Kashmir and shortly thereafter (in October) invaded Kashmir.

What is the guarantee that the Pak Army will not pull of another raid by the ``tribal irregulars``? It took India more than a year of fighting to push the Pak Army out of the Kashmir Valley and Ladakh. Now Pakistan will be brandishing its nuclear weapons.

I think the idea is a non-starter. Better for Kashmiri Muslims to accept that they are going to have to live amongst the infidels.