Kashmir from the Left

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NazarHayatKhan #31: I pretty much agree with almost your whole reply.

I do disagree with the part about villagers not understanding the sophisticated surveys. I don’t think that is accurate. I believe they are offered straight forward surveys, and in many cases face to face interviews.

Domestically, you are correct that economy is the no.1 issue that everyone in Pakistan is concerned about. Survey after survey indicates this. Jobs and law and order are on top. Kashmir, Religion/Secularism, Democracy etc. follow in the second tier.

However, vis-à-vis India, Kashmir tops the list on all surveys.

I don’t think Pakistan initiated the current Kashmir freedom movement. It was indigenous, starting in late 80s, after the Indian security forces killed protesting Kashmiris in the Jehlum river incidence. Pakistan was actually caught by surprise. After that, Pakistan could have supported it or not supported it. That is an issue that the population of Pakistan has to decide upon.

I am not sure what India’s endgame is on Kashmir. I really don’t think it has any intention of giving any kind of self-determination to Kashmiris, unless they forcefully take it from India, or accept Indian occupation. Hence, Kashmir may stay in a perpetual state of conflict. I think, one has to support Kashmir, if for no other reason, purely as a human rights struggle. Otherwise, one might as well not speak out against what was done in Gujrat, and against honor killings and on any other issue on which one entity can impose its will, forcefully, on another entity. “Might is right” is not the correct policy to support.

The other issue I have is the large arms build up of India. That has to stop, before India’s intentions can be trusted. A poor country doesn’t buy Pakistan-specific offensive weaponry by the billions of dollars, if it is not planning to use it. India obviously isn’t going to use this equipment against China or Bangladesh or Nepal. If it was defensive equipment, one could understand the purchases. But what about the offensive equipment?

Germany built up its military after WW-I. The British and French sat back; thinking nothing was out of the ordinary. And WW-II occurred. So India has to stop its purchases, and then cut down its offensive armaments. And it should agree to turn South Asia into a nuclear-free zone. So far, it has not agreed to those options, under any condition.

Tanks, aircraft carriers, attack aircraft etc. cannot be used against China. They are directed towards battles in the Punjab plains and action in the Arabian Sea (all away from China). It the past three years, India has raised its military budget by (I believe) 25%, 14% and 14% respectively. This is despite the fact that it already enjoyed a 3/1 advantage with respect to Pakistan, before the budget increases.

I personally do not trust the BJP. I have read a lot of their own literature, and I am convinced they want a Hinduvta South Asia. They still haven’t accepted the partition of their “Hindu” land, with or without Kashmir. I would encourage you to go to www.bjp.org and read their philosophies. If the BJP can kill its own Muslims with total disregard, then I am quite sure it wouldn’t have too much problem killing Pakistanis, if it could. I have yet to see them describe any long-term vision for the status of Muslims in South Asia – other than Hinduvta. All of this goes beyond Kashmir.

I think the BJP will create a situation, where there will be a massive Hindu/Muslim split in India. Even Indian authors have suggested this. This will result in large Hindu/Muslim conflicts on legal, religious and social issues between Indian Hindus and Muslims. This will result in militancy within India, which could eventually lead to a huge split within India again (much like the Khalistan movement, but on a much larger scale and spread in many areas). At that point, all the Indian parties (Congress and BJP) would join to militarily suppress this. If it is not suppressed successfully, then eventually Pakistan would become a target, to divert attention. At that time, Pakistan has to be ready to defend itself, both economically and militarily.

I have become surer of this, after watching the various Indian organizations operate in the USA. They are completely anti-Pakistan. You would be surprised to find out how many of the extremely educated Indians in the USA are hardcore card-carrying BJP supporters. Modi and Advani make trips to the USA and other places, and speak to standing ovations of Ph.D Indian-American BJP supporters. Every single action of Indians in the US Congress seems to be based on isolating Pakistan, not necessarily in helping India. The ink on the current $3 billion aid package from USA hadn’t even dried, when the Indian lobby started pressuring hard to politicise it and get it stopped. I could understand if they wanted any offensive military equipment to not be sent to Pakistan. But most of the aid package was for debt reduction and poverty alleviation. Why in the world, is the Indian lobby trying to stop that? A big deal was made about the heart transplant for one little Pakistani girl, yet this aid package, which could provide thousands of such surgeries, is opposed tooth and nail. Doesn’t make sense.

So, when one talks about relations with India, one has to take the ideology of the BJP, into account also. Things may have changed in Pakistan from the 50s and 60s, but one needs to keep in mind that things have changed in India, far more. The Hinduvta ideology was not around (or at least not in power) in India, in the 60s. I doubt the Hinduvta ideology will go away, even if Kashmir is sidelined. So I think Pakistan has to leverage any stance with India, on a commitment from India to reduce its offensive military equipment, and a stop to all the Hinduvta nonsense. Otherwise, Pakistan may face the same fate as France in WW-II.

Trust has to be mutual. And so far, none of our Indian colleagues have been able to explain why India is buying so much military equipment. Poor countries only buy offensive equipment for one reason. They want to dominate or attack someone.

This, of course, does not mean that Pakistan should initiate any violence, with India. As a businessman, I think Pakistan should concentrate on its economy. I think Pakistan’s economy’s biggest problem is not violence with India. Nor is it the large military budget. Pakistan has a military budget of $2.8 billion. Tiny Taiwan has a military budget of $10 billion. This is despite the fact, as you stated, that China is, “taking it easy” with Taiwan. So, Taiwan has made economic progress, while keeping a deterence against China.

The biggest problem with Pakistan’s economy is corruption in the system, tax evasion and feudalism. Until these problems are solved, nothing will improve, even if we have a zero defence budget and super-good relations with India. This does not mean that unnecessarily high defence budgets should be supported. However, until one solves the issues of corruption and feudalism, injecting an extra $1 billion from the defence budget, though encouraging, is not going to turn the Pakistan economy around. I think Pakistan should freeze its defence budget at the current level, and concentrate on a nuclear deterent vis-à-vis India. And then concentrate on solving the issues of corruption, tax evasion and feudalism.

At the same time, I do think Pakistan should drop all visa restrictions against India and start trading. This seems to be what the survey indicates, also. And it should push a Kashmir solution on India, on the basis of human rights, highlighting the massive human rights violations in Kashmir. And not on the basis of militancy, from Pakistan’s side. There is quite a bit of militancy from indigenous Kashmiris also. Which I assume would continue, regardless of what Pakistan does.

I would be interested in your views on the massive Indian arms build-up, and how or whether Pakistan should counter it? Or should it not worry about it?

Ref HotAir #21

[Results:

Most important political issue for Pakistanis (choices given: Fundamentalism, Democracy, Kashmir):
Fundamentalism - 17%
Democracy - 19%
Kashmir - 64% (this goes against information in your reply)]

Meaning, after we get Kashmir, we will let the Fundos get rid of any remaining Pandits, other Hindus, Shias, Buddhists, etc.

[Pakistanis consider Kashmir issue to be more important than Fundamentalism and Democracy (this is the opposite of the Chowk Pakistani view). I have noticed this in surveys carried out by Herald also. The top most important issues are usually jobs, law and order etc. Followed by Kashmir, and then democracy and fundamentalism.]

Jobs and Law&Order ahead of Kashmir? How nice!

[The above views are about where I stand also.]

I am not surprised. You will definitely want to rid Kashmir of any non-Muslims.

India: 15 Militants Killed Near Kashmir
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: September 29, 2003

Filed at 7:05 a.m. ET

SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- India`s army said Monday that it killed 15 Islamic militants as they tried to sneak into Indian-controlled Kashmir from Pakistan-controlled territory.

The militants died in overnight fighting in the dense Kunzarwani Forest in the border area of Gurez, an officer who identified herself only as Lt. Pushpa told The Associated Press. Kunzarwani is about 110 miles north of Srinagar, the summer capital of the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir.

Ras saheb:
Thanks for the report. These forums are perhaps worthwhile in that they keep the morale of ``the “Progressives”, the leftovers of the South Asian Left``, but I doubt if they serve any other useful purpose.
If these kinds of diasporic conclaves are to be really productive - and they can be since the diasporas do have the ears of their respective govts. - they have to do more than convert the converted. To do that, they should include people who have greater credibility with the policy makers, if not the masses, of their countries than do Prof. Hoodbhoy in Pakistan and Angana Chatterjee in India.
And this last is my particular beef. When people talk about people pushed out of Kashmir, why doesn`t anyone talk of the minorities who have been ethnically cleansed from POK? Dont people who use lofty words like self-determination have an obligation to prove that they are capable of some minimal civilized behaviour towards the survival, let alone respecting the rights, of minorities?

Romair#21:
[It is a good sign to have a diversity of personal opinions, in a country, on various issues. It is a sign that people of the country think independently. This is what I feel is lacking in India, on Kashmir. While it is present in Pakistan, which is evident from a vast range of opinions.]

This is one of the 2-3 pet themes of yours. It is also untrue and it just goes to prove how ludicrous your claim to be an India expert are? There are many views on Kashmir in India, some of which are:
-India should invade POK and complete the task that was left unfinished in 1947.
-Article 370 of the Indian constitution should be abrogated, removing the special status given to the state.
-Retired Indian army soldiers should be given plots of land in Kashmir and settled there, a la Chinese in Tibet.
-Kashmiris who do not like India should be packed to Pakistan.
-Jammu and Kashmir should be divided into three states.
-Kashmir should be given greater internal autonomy
-LOC should be accepted as a permanent border.
But any Indian with any brains knows that most of the above options are non-starters, with the exception of the last two; that is why most of the Indian chowkies are in favour of them.
Your problem is not that all Indians have the same opinion but that none of them has an opinion that you like.

PS: I am making a copy of this post and will simply paste it whenever you make the same claim again:-)

Romair # 21

Thrust of my post was on Pakistan`s mishandling of this issue.

Both India and Pakistastan have stated positions on the issue and they are welcome to have. Both sides now also realize that their stated positions are untanable and at some stage people of both countries have to agree to an agreement. A war is also out of question now.

Where Pakistan has been going wrong is its trying to artificially accelerate the process - and not letting the nature throw up an apportune time and place for the resolution of the issue. Presently, it is under a false conception that US or outsiders can make this resolution possible. See how wisely the Chinese keep getting their territorial disputes resolved - with patience, wisdom and without halting their progress.

Right upto early 60s, despite this issue, there was no virulent animosity between the two countries. We traded with each other. We moved freely through each other`s countries. We read each other magazines - and saw films. We were progressing normally. If the same had been let to continue, both sides would have had by now richer, satisfied, more tolerant citizens - able to discuss and come to some kind of agreement.

Unfortunately, Pakistan`s impatience has already cost it the following :

An uncalled for 65 War - which stopped the growth of economy.
Resulted in military taking a centre stage - resulting in political instability.
Resulting in creation of Bangladesh.
Rise of religious radicalism .
Religious militancy in Kashmir and its accompanying affects in Pakistani society.
The Kargil fiasco.
Rise of religious radicalism in India as a reaction.
Most of resources going into military.
A Poor Pakistani image in the world.
Damage to the Kashmiri cause.

My only request was that Kashmir is not a ``Core Issue`` - poverty is the core issue. First tackle that.

No one in my village talks about Kashmir. Nor will they understand these sophisticated Poll questions about Kashmir. Majority of rural population is busy with its own life - not concerned with India or Kashmir. The urdu media news paper readers get worked up on these issues. The Mullas have a much wider and different agenda than just Kashmir or Pakistan. But even they have the sense to preach a reconciliation between India and Pakistan. Their primary concern is to cut the US out of the equation.

Similarly, the mainstream political parties do not display the same urgency or impatience that Mushraaf (or army) shows on the Kashmir issue. People`s party`s and Nawaz Shreef`s thrust was on improving relations with India - and not making it an urgent or a do or die issue like the Army or Foreign office makes it look.

One solution, out of the hundreds available, is to let both the Indian and Pakistani sides of Kashmir merge into one autonomous Kasmir - with both India & Pakistan jointly guarenteeing its external defence.

Ras,

Thanks for your reply as follows:

``Dr. Hoodbhoy was referring to the Kashmiri Refugees displaced since 1947 not just 1989 when the Pandits started getting forced out when this current phase of the conflict started. The numbers are much higher than 10K``


From the composition of your sentences in that para, this fact does not seem to be apparent. It appears from your writing that 10000s of kashmiris flew from India to escape some terrible holocaust. Anyway, you have now made yourself clear on that. So there are no kashmiri`s fleeing India towards pakistan in the past decade due to Indian `repression`.

- - - - - - - - - -

Now you say, these kashmiris `refugees` who moved from India to Pakistan were displaced in 1947.

The kashmir division took place in 1948, if I`m not mistaken. And it started with pakistani tribals attacking kashmir from the west.

I apologize for my simple minded thinking, I`m sorry, but your answer beats me completely.

Why should a muslim kashmiri in srinager take his bori-bistar, family, daughters, etc...and head towards this raping, pillaging gang of thugs approaching from the west ??????????????????


(We make a notable exception for Romair`s family...who according to him, moved from the Indian side of kashmir to the pakistani side of kashmir...in 1947...the elder Romair having had a premonition of the exact location of the LOC one year before the event actually took place...(the lord moves in wondrous ways))



So, any answer to this Ras: Did muslim kashmiris move from east kashmir to west kashmir in 1948 in the 10000s?

Thanks.

#26 by AlephNull on September 28, 2003 7:03pm PT

[South Asia’, BTW, is the term of choice for Pakistanis who do not wish to be reminded, or to remind others, of the preponderant country in the Indian subcontinent.]

#28 by arjun_m on September 28, 2003 8:37pm PT

[South Asian is what pakis call themselves after 9/11 to avoid association with Pakistan.]

Can`t blame the poor Pakis, can you?



Americans

A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull. He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl`s life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says:

``You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers:

``Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl``

The man says: - ``But I am not a New Yorker!``

``Oh then it will say in newspapers in the morning:

`Brave American saves life of little girl``` - the policeman answers.

``But I am not an American!`` - says the man. ``Oh, what are you then?``

The man says: - ``I am a Pakistani!`` The next day the newspapers say: ``Islamic extremist kills American dog. Connections to terrorist networks are being explored``

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Qusman1 #8

{{A party of Kashmiri pandits (who`d picked up on GN Fai`s scent), Hindutva riff-raff and others had come with a determination to sabotage the event. However, they were handled very well by Angana.....}}

A most revealing remark. Kashmiri Pandits of course need have no representation at this ‘progressive’ conference on Kashmir. Ditto with anyone from Jammu or Ladakh. I wonder if anyone (Professor Hoodbhoy, perhaps) referred to the unrest among Gilgit Shias, or to the Balwaristan national movement. Was it intentionally left off the agenda, or did Ras Siddiqui simply fail to report it?

Pmishra #23

{{your country organizes the massacre of my countrymen, hindu and muslim, and it is MY problem to be humane??}}

But of course. Don’t your realize that any person killed by anyone in J&K instantly counts towards the ‘70000/80,000/90,000 innocent Kashmiris massacred by Indian occupation forces’? Never mind that in life he/she may have been – cricketer Shahid Afridi’s cousin; Ghazi Baba, a Pakistani Punjabi from Bahawalpur; a labourer from Bihar; a pilgrim to Amarnath from elsewhere in India; a member of the police, the BSF, the Rashtriya Rifles or the Indian Army; a Norwegian backpacker or Israeli tourist; a man shopping in a crowded vegetable market when a grenade goes off ‘accidentally’; etc, etc. Whatever the agency that caused their deaths, it`s entirely the fault of the Indian army, the heartless Indian government, and of Indians everywhere; and of nobody else. Your only course should you wish to be regarded as marginally human, is to mollify Pakistanis, admit the validity of their just and fair stance, submit to every one of their demands, indemnify them, etc. etc.

{{You organize a meeting that has no reference to kashmiri ethnic minorities and you take no responsibility for it?}}

But don’t you understand that only India and Indians can be held responsible for anything? Such mundane concerns don’t apply to the other side.

From the article:

[Organized by the People for Peace in Kashmir and the Social and Cultural Anthropology Program at CIIS, San Francisco and supported by the Friends of South Asia (FOSA) organization, this was an attempt by the “Progressives”, the leftovers of the South Asian Left in Northern California (sorry to offend some people but that is what we are) to see what could be done about this historical problem so that our dream of reconciliation between India and Pakistan could be realized, hopefully within our lifetimes.]

The first thing to understand about the ‘Friends of South Asia’ is that they are no friends of India or Indians. ‘South Asia’, BTW, is the term of choice for Pakistanis who do not wish to be reminded, or to remind others, of the preponderant country in the Indian subcontinent. ‘South Asian’ organizations in the US are more often than not an umbrella under which sly advocates of the interests of the Pakistani establishment congregate, while attempting to co-opt Indians who are liberal-minded, cosmopolitan or simply clueless.

Coming to the participants in this conference, Professor Hoodbhoy may be sincere if misguided and misinformed in this instance. I have no comments about Mr. Zulfikar Ahmad.

Ghulam Nabi Fai, as spokesman for the All Parties Hurriyet (Freedom) Conference (APHC), serves the same function in the US as does the Hurriyet in India – i.e. he is a stalking horse for the Pakistani establishment, the Army, and the ISI, with whom his dealings go back a long way and with whom he coordinates his activities. Though today he talks non-violence, I regard him as being on the same side as those who slit throats and spray bullets at Chattisinghpora and Nadimarg. So much for ‘Progressives’.

As for Professor Angana Chatterbox and her associates, they are an excellent exemplar of why the left has fallen into such total disrepute with the majority of informed Indians. It may be an interesting exercise (just my suspicions at this point) to follow the money trail to and from these ‘professors’ and ‘community activists’.

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re #10 nazarhayatkhan

I agree with your perception that kashmir is not the major issue for women and rural population. In a country where 90 percent people spitted on Musharraf`s face in farcical referendum, where more than 60 percent voted for PPP, PML (N) and MMA despite getting all the feudals lined behind quisling league and NA, can not believe in the sincerity of Musharraf by 52 percent on kashmir, knowing too well about his role in derailing peace efforts through Kargil.

Kargil and Kashmir for military, Kafir and Khilafat for fundamentalists/ Islamist, Kalabagh Dam for...............

[quote]
Re: # 18, #3 pmisra2 . How about some humanity for the Muslim Kashmiris too? Your slip
is showing..
[end-quote]

SO let me get this straight: your country organizes the massacre of my countrymen, hindu and muslim, and it is MY problem to be humane?? You organize a meeting that has no reference to kashmiri ethnic minorities and you take no responsibility for it? It is enough to make a person sick.

Let me give you this challenge: the day you stand outside the Muridke Jihad Factory with a poster saying: All Faiths Are Equal, that is the day I will agree you are a sincere peace lover. Until then you are posturing farceur, especially in the company ``Professor Angana Chatterjee``.

Ras #20 ``Re: #4 Romair: Bhutto did it!``

What did Bhutto do?

My question was whether any solution to the problem was agreed upon in the convention. Usually, in such affairs, ideas are presented, but no conclusions are agreed upon.